Kamla says TT$5 Billion Still On Highway To Europe

[snowbird]

　
Snowbird says
　
*** Snowbird, I find you make too much of an effort to prove your 'Canadianness' and to give the impression that you are white. Are you white? Why are you as a Canadian always on a Trinidadian site, what are your interests here?
Oh Lord....when all else fails..... play the race card..... You too Roger!!! Boy Massa musta bun some ah allyuh tail real hard..... yuh still ..... smoldering
　
　

　
*** Very ironic: you are talking 'trini talk' but giving Trinidad your worst wishes.
So wha rong wid 'critiquing' Trini in dey own vernacular....now who shame tuh be Trini?

　

　
*** Well from where I sit I see it as possible for anyone with the knowhow, even an outsider, to solve the crime situation in Trinidad and Tobago in just a few months. So the fact that Gibbs is not doing it while enjoying an inflated salary just shows the deceit of the man, in my view. Personally Roger...I think you are just jealous that Gibbs...or anyone can pull down that type of salary...while some ah allyuh still ....scrunting ...... even if it wasn't Gibbs....it would be someone else (local or foreign) getting dey tail cut.... as long as it eh you gettin de money..... yuh vex
　
What I find silly, however, is that according to you large amounts of state funds in Canada are presently being laundered into the underworld through the slum areas there while citizens like yourself cannot see that the global underworld of which your Gibbs is evidently a part is ripping you all off. ....Paranoia will get you everywhere Rog.



　
*** You are right, the problems of this world will not be solved by the children of this world for they are the cause of the problems and so cannot be part of the solution. Our global problems must be solved by those of us who are sons of God: he came unto his own and his own received him not but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. [John 1:11-12]
　
　
Roger

Take it away Ang..... dis last one is fer you...drop anodder ...amen an hallelujah in he tail

[Angie]

Right back at yuh Hun

​even to them that believe on his name. [John 1:11-12]

[kemist]

　

*** Well to me it is a foregone conclusion that your premise is not correct but my question is why are you going through all the trouble of this assumption and analysis in the face of the obvious facts to try to defend Jack and his TT$7.2 billion highway claim?
　
Roger

Well, for the record, I'm not trying to defend anything; only searching for facts; trying to separate the facts from ole talk/'gut feelings' and then decide what criticisms to make, whether good or bad.

As for the reason, there's a big difference between 47 and 70 km. As such, it appears that the govt is also saying that they are scrapping nearly one-third of the project, and despite that, it is costing almost twice as much. Now that raises eyebrows - that's cause for mass protests. The severity of the issue is enough reason to subject it to critical analysis.
I haven't yet found any statement by the govt online that says they are building 47 km instead of 70 km, or that says they are scrapping the 23 km. So, the first logical step is to double check the numbers.

Now e.g. the distance from POS to Arima is about 25 km, so a person who starts from one place and makes a return trip is actually traveling 50 km total. One can say that they had built 25 km of road or 50 km of road, depending on how they consider the lanes. So for the Pt Fortin highway project I'm starting with the premise that the govt is measuring the total length of roads through the entire distance in one direction, while MMM is looking at the 'return trip' separately, in which case 4 lanes = 2 x 2 lane roads.

So the way i calculated the 78.4 km was to double the distances given on the NIDCO link for all new 4 lane roads, and keep the given distances for roads that are being expanded by 2 lanes, then add them all up.

So if the 70 km and 47 km are 'one of the same' and the feasibility study estimates it to cost $3.1b, the unanswered question is how did the govt add an extra $2b to get $5b?
And then we also got the $2b issue with land acquisition and relocation.

A contract document is a very detailed legal document that tells the contractor all that he must do and the client all that he must pay on a project so that a contract document must include all project costs. Land acquisition is a part of this project and so must have been included in MMM's cost estimates or else MMM would have not given us the feasibility report that we paid them for.
　
Therefore, my assumption that they did include land acquisition cost in their final figure is not a "very big assumption" as you claim.
　
Furthermore, like I said earlier, I also did my own private rough estimate that included land acquisition cost and my figure was close to that given by MMM's detailed study suggesting that they too as required must have included land acquisition cost in their estimate.

And therein (the highlighted portion) lies your assumption. Whether it is correct or not, it is still an assumption - Have you seen the contract that states the specific tasks of which we 'paid them for? It is an assumption to say that one of these tasks was about land acquisition and the cost - what if the govt did not require that of MMM? While there may be some sort of 'template' for contracts, I'm assuming they can be tailored to suit.

Have you seen the actual feasibility report? I have no doubt that from the study itself, the amount of land that must be acquired would be obvious. But then we go into real estate and property values and costs of relocation. If they really did all of that, how much $ did MMM allocate for house & land acquisition and relocation. And what were their basis for evaluating those costs - did they consult with local real estate agencies etc? From the looks of things, it seems as though the govt doesn't yet know where they are going to relocate the property owners (my opinion), therefore i am of the view that relocations costs at least were either not considered or very roughly estimated.

[roger]

I have been trying unsuccessfully to reply to the above threads for the last few days: the reply facility was just not working. It is evidently working now though sticking quite a lot. As soon as I am able I will respond.


Roger

[roger]

　
Snowbird says

*** Snowbird, I find you make too much of an effort to prove your 'Canadianness' and to give the impression that you are white. Are you white? Why are you as a Canadian always on a Trinidadian site, what are your interests here?

Oh Lord....when all else fails..... play the race card..... You too Roger!!! Boy Massa musta bun some ah allyuh tail real hard..... yuh still ..... smoldering

*** What on my part has failed, Snowbird? I have accused you of supporting Gibbs for the same issue for which you condemned Kamla: that of not seeking the interest of our citizens. You confess to be guilty as charged. I am now trying to determine the real cause behind your support for Gibbs. You say it is because you are a fellow Canadian but you speak our local dialect and have been on this ttonline site for years: this does not sound so Canadian to me for it to be a basis of such support for Gibbs.
　
I ask whether you are white considering that you might be a white Trinidadian living in Canada and you are supporting Gibbs really because of his race: which incidentally is ok with me insofar as your personal choice is concerned.
　
My real suspicion, however, is that you, like several others on this site, are really spies/ macos and advocates paid by large organizations to cover the backs of these organizations while they carry out their nefarious activities.
　
This is what my line of questioning was calculated to determine but you awkwardly avoid answering my questions trying to accuse me of playing the race card.
　
My questions remain if you care to answer: Are you white? Why are you as a Canadian always on a Trinidadian site, what are your interests here?
　

*** Very ironic: you are talking 'trini talk' but giving Trinidad your worst wishes.

So wha rong wid 'critiquing' Trini in dey own vernacular....now who shame tuh be Trini?

　
*** You perform this clumsy trick everytime of deliberately misrepresenting what I say: when I accused you of probably being affiliated with those who were clearly sabotaging my private word files you scandalously twisted what I said to mean that I was accusing you yourself of sabotaging my files.
　
Again here I say that you speak 'trini dialect' seeming to suggest that you are Trinidadian but you give Trinidad your worst wishes in that you propose that Gibbs should take our money and run to Canada. You are attempting to twist it around to say that I have a problem with you "critiquing" Trinidadians in their own dialect. But like I said in another place: some people are wise to do evil but to do good they have no sense, that is, they only have sense to do nonsense.
　
　

*** Well from where I sit I see it as possible for anyone with the knowhow, even an outsider, to solve the crime situation in Trinidad and Tobago in just a few months. So the fact that Gibbs is not doing it while enjoying an inflated salary just shows the deceit of the man, in my view. Personally Roger...I think you are just jealous that Gibbs...or anyone can pull down that type of salary...while some ah allyuh still ....scrunting......

　
*** I am not jealous but angry that Gibbs or anyone can steal that type of money from us while many among us are still scrunting.
　
　

...

even if it wasn't Gibbs....it would be someone else (local or foreign) getting dey tail cut.... as long as it eh you gettin de money..... yuh vex

　
*** If money was an end in itself for me and not something that should reflect the measure of ones good works and achievements in this life after his basic needs are satisfied then all now I would have been serving mammon. I was once given an acting appointment in the Drainage Division of the Ministry of Works where I work and at the beginning of my stint there I was given a vehicle with a chauffer, a cell phone and video camera and promised a laptop as starting perks for working at that office.
　
After working there for a couple of months the engineering consultant employed with the Drainage Division brought a $300,000 contract for me to sign but became upset at the fact that I refused to blindly sign off on it on the grounds that it provided no proof that the work was done, He left my office with a threat that day following which the then Director of Drainage proceeded to put pressure on me by removing all the perks.
　
I say this to say this, I do not compromise principles for money but money for principles and I am not trying to serve mammon along with God. It followsthat ill gotten gains bear no attraction to me whatsoever and so I do not covet the wealth of anyone.
　

What I find silly, however, is that according to you large amounts of state funds in Canada are presently being laundered into the underworld through the slum areas there while citizens like yourself cannot see that the global underworld of which your Gibbs is evidently a part is ripping you all off. ....

Paranoia will get you everywhere Rog

　
*** I am neither delusional nor irrational but what I am has indeed taken me places. On the other hand being an ostrich has gotten many into the belly of predators.
　
　
Roger

[roger]

Angie says

even to them that believe on his name. [John 1:11-12]

　
*** If this is your concern here, Angie, the term "sons of God" in that passage includes both male and female even as in Spanish "hijos" literally means "sons" but is also the word used for "sons and daughters" collectively as a group.



Roger

[roger]

Kemist says in response to: *** Well to me it is a foregone conclusion that your premise is not correct but my question is why are you going through all the trouble of this assumption and analysis in the face of the obvious facts to try to defend Jack and his TT$7.2 billion highway claim? Roger

Well, for the record, I'm not trying to defend anything; only searching for facts; trying to separate the facts from ole talk/'gut feelings' and then decide what criticisms to make, whether good or bad.

　
*** Ok, I hear you on that.

As for the reason, there's a big difference between 47 and 70 km. As such, it appears that the govt is also saying that they are scrapping nearly one-third of the project, and despite that, it is costing almost twice as much. Now that raises eyebrows - that's cause for mass protests. The severity of the issue is enough reason to subject it to critical analysis.

　
*** You are now talking my language. I think, however, that we have already exhausted critical analysis of my allegations. What, in my view, should be the next step is to use the Freedom of Information Act to obtain the entire Feasibility Study done by MMM Group and whatever inhouse documents relating to the cost of this project NIDCO has. A review of these documents will quickly reveal the truth about Jack's price gouging on this project I am sure.
　
I myself have maintained a one man protest on this matter because I am convinced about my claims having done my own rough estimate of the project.
　
　

I haven't yet found any statement by the govt online that says they are building 47 km instead of 70 km, or that says they are scrapping the 23 km. So, the first logical step is to double check the numbers.

Now e.g. the distance from POS to Arima is about 25 km, so a person who starts from one place and makes a return trip is actually traveling 50 km total. One can say that they had built 25 km of road or 50 km of road, depending on how they consider the lanes. So for the Pt Fortin highway project I'm starting with the premise that the govt is measuring the total length of roads through the entire distance in one direction, while MMM is looking at the 'return trip' separately, in which case 4 lanes = 2 x 2 lane roads.

So the way i calculated the 78.4 km was to double the distances given on the

NIDCO link for all new 4 lane roads, and keep the given distances for roads that are being expanded by 2 lanes, then add them all up.

So if the 70 km and 47 km are 'one of the same' and the feasibility study estimates it to cost $3.1b, the unanswered question is how did the govt add an extra $2b to get $5b?
And then we also got the $2b issue with land acquisition and relocation.

　
*** Ok, but I think your argument is using the idea of a trip in a colloquial manner to mean road. What if it is a taxi driver and he makes five trips for the day: does the road from POS to Arima then become 250 km long? No need to answer that question but I appreciate the need for one to convert the problem to one which he can fully understand and have an interest in before taking up the fight.
　
.

Furthermore, like I said earlier, I also did my own private rough estimate that included land acquisition cost and my figure was close to that given by MMM's detailed study suggesting that they too as required must have included land acquisition cost in their estimate.

And therein (the highlighted portion) lies your assumption. Whether it is correct or not, it is still an assumption

　
*** Ok. No need to dwell further on this.
　
　

- Have you seen the contract that states the specific tasks of which we 'paid them for? It is an assumption to say that one of these tasks was about land acquisition and the cost - what if the govt did not require that of MMM? While there may be some sort of 'template' for contracts, I'm assuming they can be tailored to suit. Have you seen the actual feasibility report? I have no doubt that from the study itself, the amount of land that must be acquired would be obvious. But then we go into real estate and property values and costs of relocation. If they really did all of that, how much $ did MMM allocate for house & land acquisition and relocation. And what were their basis for evaluating those costs - did they consult with local real estate agencies etc?

　
*** No. I have not seen the contract but that is why I now say that someone, maybe the Opposition or Transparency International, should request these documents and make them available for public viewing. On the other matter if land acquisition was not on the original contract and was not an oversight by MMM then no one has the right to arbitrarily include it as part of the contract as this government seems to be doing.
　
A Variation of works will have to be done up which looks very messy and unprofessional a thing for the start of a big project like this for which some TT$55 million in planning and design consultancy fees were paid.
　
This project is in a mess
　


　

From the looks of things, it seems as though the govt doesn't yet know where they are going to relocate the property owners (my opinion), therefore i am of the view that relocations costs at least were either not considered or very roughly estimated.

　
*** So, in your view, it could not be that this government is trying to pin their excessive costs on things already catered for in the original contract, that is, land acquisition and relocation? But in spite of what your views might be the bottom line is that relocation of just 300 plus landowners of that rural area cannot be expected to cost the TT$2 billion that Jack is claiming since that will mean in excess of TT$5 million per household.
　
Further, there is no way I could see the highway itself costing anywhere near TT$5.2 billion. Do the math yourself from the rough overestimate items presented below.
　
Items For Rough Estimate - San Fernando To Point Fortin Highway:
　
47 km of 30m wide highway comprising 4 x 4 m wide lanes and 5 m wide verges paved as roadway on either side with 2 m x 1 m deep box drains and 4 m median width paved as roadway, 25 N0. 15 m long x 26 m wide x 4.5 m say high bridges, 2 m deep earthworks cut throughout, pavement ( the road structure) comprising 200 mm thick blue metal limestone aggregate asphaltic concrete surface and base courses on 500 mm thick Guanapo aggregate subbase on 2 m deep compacted granular landfill on subgrade, single-lamp street lights on either side and double-lamp street light at median every 60 m along highway, land acquisition of 2,820 lots @ $250,000 each, sinage and painting, and construction supervision of 5 % overall cost, say.
　
The land acquisition cost here caters for acquiring the entire road reserve of 30 m x 47,000 m at an average cost of TT$250,000 per lot of land and prices are to be vat inclusive.
　
　
Roger