Kamla says TT$5 Billion Still On Highway To Europe

[roger]

　
Excerpt from a Guardian Newspaper article of 27th January, 2012 Titled "Kamla on protests over $7.2b highway":-
　
Prime Minister Kamla Persad-Bissessar says

construction of the $7.2 billion highway has to be micro-managed because her Government will not be in office "forever." Speaking to reporters before attending a high-powered meeting with the Highway Inter-Ministerial Committee, Persad-Bissessar said...since construction began, sporadic protests have cropped up with residents of Siberan Drive, who blocked main contractor OAS Construction from demolishing abandoned houses, located in the construction pathway.
Massive anti-highway mobilisation had also been launched by the Highway Reroute Movement, led by University of the West Indies lecturer, Dr Wayne Kublalsingh. Sub-contractors employed by a company had also threatened protests over non-payment of wages.
Persad-Bissessar said. "We need to give consideration to the people’s concerns. "Of course there will be challenges every time we have a major construction project. If we don’t push it and micro-manage it, it will take forever and we really have no intention (of stalling) because we will not be here forever."

　
*** But the Prime Minister, Kamla Persad Bissessar, has not addressed the major concern from the public but has proceeded along the boring path adopted by trickydadian talk show hosts who take a series of questions for their guests at one time then allow them to answer only the trivial ones.
　
The real complaint from the public has been stated thus:-

In my view, the need for an SOE arose in the mind of the Prime Minister from statements made in a thread of this forum on 12th August, 2011. The thread was titled "$5 Billion Jack Up" and dealt with the Pt Fortin Highway Project. The statements are as follows:-
So

the project has gone from $2.0 billion to $7.2 billion by mere politics and Jack Warner, who evidently still has business to settle for FIFA is the one deciding that FIFA World Cup 2014 is the one to receive the $5 billion spoil.
Many Ministers have been up to yesterday attached to this scandalous project including the PM and her successorso that should JW be busted the whole of the UNC leadership goes with him.
Trinidad and Tobago the ball is now in your court.

　
This is a quote from articles posted on this make belief public forum since 12th August, 2011 and 15th November, 2011. Patrick Manning as Prime Minister insisted on three smelter plants just before his demise when there were public opposition to one smelter plant. So, following suit, it seems that this PM is now threatening to proceed to squander TT$5 billion in the face of our complaints.
　
But this all looks to me like the PM is trying to become famous the only way she knows how by reenacting history as stated in the saying 'whom the gods will destroy they first make mad'. What silliness!


Roger

[snowbird]

..... Persad-Bissessar said. "We need to give consideration to the people’s concerns. ......"


thanks Rog.

[roger]

..... Persad-Bissessar said. "We need to give consideration to the people’s concerns. ......"


thanks Rog.

*** Have you any comment on what 'I said', Snowbird?


Roger

[Angie]

This is a quote from articles posted on this make belief public forum since 12th August, 2011 and 15th November, 2011. Patrick Manning as Prime Minister insisted on three smelter plants just before his demise when there were public opposition to one smelter plant. So, following suit, it seems that this PM is now threatening to proceed to squander TT$5 billion in the face of our complaints.

Patrick Manning dead?

[BW]

Patrick Manning dead?

politically, yes

[Angie]

politically, yes

I am nominating Maccogirl to deliver the news to him ... he still talking about the National plans he has.

[BW]

I am nominating Maccogirl to deliver the news to him ... he still talking about the National plans he has.

the country needs a national plan imo

[Angie]

the country needs a national plan imo

The Country needs more than just a National plan, it also need a Gov't to implement those plans. Right now we have neither.

[BW]

I still doh understand how the price of the highway went from 2 billion to 7.2 Billion. isn't 7.2 billion kinda high?

[Angie]

I still doh understand how the price of the highway went from 2 billion to 7.2 Billion. isn't 7.2 billion kinda high?

Don't even try because even if an MP ask the question in Parliament, the only response will be a regurgitation of how much the Tarouba Stadium and other projects went into cost over runs.

[kemist]

ok i'm confused now

Did the govt say that the entire network of highways were going to cost a total of $2b ?

It was my understanding that the Pt Fortin end of the highway alone was costing $1.5b
Or are they saying now that the Pt Fortin end alone is costing $7.2b?

If the information in the following link is true,

http://www.nidco.co.tt/Comprehensive...int Fortin.pdf

How much $ would one expect all of it cost?

[snowbird]

*** Have you any comment on what 'I said', Snowbird?


Roger

I would have thought ....me finding the following statement by Kamla funny..... 'We need to give consideration to peoples concerns' ....would be comment enough

in case you didn't get it.... I find it actually ...hypocritical....since her actions ...and that of her regime....to date would dictate.... they could care less what the concerns of the people are....right now they are too busy .....working their own agenda. .... feathering their own nests....all the while, trying to distract the masses with.....bull crap

[Angie]

ok i'm confused now

Did the govt say that the entire network of highways were going to cost a total of $2b ?

It was my understanding that the Pt Fortin end of the highway alone was costing $1.5b
Or are they saying now that the Pt Fortin end alone is costing $7.2b?

If the information in the following link is true,

http://www.nidco.co.tt/Comprehensive...int Fortin.pdf

How much $ would one expect all of it cost?

Maybe this can help;

The cost of the 47km highway from the City of San Fernando to the Borough of Point Fortin is $5.2 billion with another $2 billion to be spent on land acquisition and other items."There are a large number of persons and communities to be relocated. These persons must be adequately compensated and the Government will not shirk from its duty to do so but will treat with all citizens equitably and fairly," said Warner.

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/news/...138241554.html

[roger]

BW Says:

I still doh understand how the price of the highway went from 2 billion to 7.2 Billion. isn't 7.2 billion kinda high?

　
*** Well don't blame me for your lack of information: I have already explained this price Jack up in full on this forum but to me all this media house has sought to do is to assist Jack Warner and his Government in keeping the truth about it a secret.


Roger

[roger]

Angie says:

Don't even try because even if an MP ask the question in Parliament, the only response will be a regurgitation of how much the Tarouba Stadium and other projects went into cost over runs.

　
*** And you will let your MP off the hook with that flimsy excuse? Let me remind you that, similar to an MP, Michael Annisette was there fooling the workers, bluffing suppoprt for the workers while carrying out the employer's wishes in negotiations. This he did going so far as to sign some 5% wage increase agreement until he was exposed by a thread here that said "foreign vampire humble vampire, local vampire brute force vampire" identifying him with Calder Hart as the vampires Black Stalin sang about.

He has since evidently withdrawn himself and is no longer standing in the way of his union members continuing their protest action against their employer for better wages.

So like these unionized workers constituents must recognize the hiprocracy of their PNM MP's who are supporting Government's corruption while pretending to be 'for the people'. You must force them to speak and act on their constituents' behalf if you yourself are not one of them.


Roger

[roger]

Kemist Says:

ok i'm confused now

Did the govt say that the entire network of highways were going to cost a total of $2b ?

　
*** No. The feasibility study done by the consultant MMM Group of Canada gives a figure of US$500 million (about TT$3.1 billion) for the entire network of 70 km of highway. This means that the 47 km or so portion of this entire network that this government is now building should cost roughly TT$2.1 billion.
　
Link to MMM's Feasibility Study results: Trunk Road Expansion Solomon Hochoy, Trinidad and Tobago
　
　

It was my understanding that the Pt Fortin end of the highway alone was costing $1.5b

　
*** Where did you get this notion from?
　

Or are they saying now that the Pt Fortin end alone is costing $7.2b?

　
*** They are saying that the 47 km of highway network between San Fernando and Point Fortin is costing 7.2 billion.

If the information in the following link is true,

http://www.nidco.co.tt/Comprehensive...int Fortin.pdf

How much $ would one expect all of it cost?

　
*** TT$2.1 billion total.
　
　
Roger

[roger]

Snowbird Says

I would have thought ....me finding the following statement by Kamla funny..... 'We need to give consideration to peoples concerns' ....would be comment enough
in case you didn't get it.... I find it actually ...hypocritical....since her actions ...and that of her regime....to date would dictate.... they could care less what the concerns of the people are....right now they are too busy .....working their own agenda.
feathering their own nests....all the while, trying to distract the masses with.....bull crap

　
*** Snowbird, wasn't it you who supported Police Commissioner Gibbs hook, line and sinker when I first launched attack on him for his alleged "wickedness" against our citizens and Country? Did you not at that time advise him to take Trinidad's $100,000. per month salary, serve out his time without solving crime, then head back home to Canada?
　
He is effectively of the Peoples' Partnership regime and is displaying the same "consideration to peoples concerns" as Kamla which thing you now pretend to oppose.
　
　
Roger

[roger]

Angie says Maybe this can help;

The cost of the 47km highway from the City of San Fernando to the Borough of Point Fortin is $5.2 billion with another $2 billion to be spent on land acquisition and other items."There are a large number of persons and communities to be relocated. These persons must be adequately compensated and the Government will not shirk from its duty to do so but will treat with all citizens equitably and fairly," said Warner.

　
*** In January of 2011 Jack Warner started lying about the cost of this San Fernando to Point Fortin Highway saying that it should cost TT$7.2 billion when in truth and in fact its true cost as determined by an engineering feasibility study was only TT$2.1 billion.

Jack and his cohorts at the illegal NIDCO, in whose private hands this project has been placed, must now continue to weave a tangled web quoting fictitious figures of $5.2 billion and $2 billion which figures could be coming from nowhere else but from the top of the heads of Jack Warner and his coconspirators.
　
　

A GEO-TECHNICAL company has been hired to investigate complaints from some residents of Diamond Village, near San Fernando, that vibrations caused by construction work associated with the Point Fortin Highway project had been damaging their homes, Works and Infrastructure Minister Jack Warner announced yesterday.
A number of the residents in the area had reported to the media that construction work on the Golconda to Point Fortin Highway was causing severe damage to their properties and called on Warner to buy them out or relocate them.
Yesterday at the sitting of the Lower House, held at Tower D, International Waterfront Centre, Port of Spain, the Works Minister announced that Government had listened to the concerns and in response the National Infrastructure Development Co Ltd "has engaged a geo-technical company, the best in the country, to investigate the vibrations that would be propagated by construction activities". He said fieldwork for the investigation would begin next Tuesday, would be completed in one week's time and "the final report will advise on the necessary actions to be taken thereafter".

　
*** This is a trivial construction detail about which much ado is being made bringing it to the Lower House while the trickydadians in Parliamant continue to circumvent the real issue.

The cost of the 47km highway from the City of San Fernando to the Borough of Point Fortin is $5.2 billion with another $2 billion to be spent on land acquisition and other items.

　
*** Says who or which feasibility study or estimate?

　

"There are a large number of persons and communities to be relocated. These persons must be adequately compensated and the Government will not shirk from its duty to do so but will treat with all citizens equitably and fairly," said Warner.
He noted that the Debe to Mon Desir segment of the highway entailed the relocation of about 300 households and land has been acquired in Petit Morne which would be made available to residents to rebuild their community.

　
*** The feasibility study done by MMM Group would have included this cost in arriving at their TT$2.1 billion total cost. I myself did a rough overestimate of the project and catered for some TT$0.6 billion [TT$600 million] for land acquisition. My estimate yielded roughly TT$2.6 billion for the project.

What is the value of the 300 households to be relocated? Does the price of each exceed TT$2 million to cause their total cost to be above the TT$6 billion I estimated?

In Cleaver Heights in Arima three bedroom houses were recently built costing around TT$650,000 each.
　

On concerns about the environmental impact of the project he reported that the highway has received the necessary certificates of environmental clearance and also Town and Country Planning Division's full planning permission. He also reported there were a number of plans for the highway, including environmental, waste management, flood, water quality and sediment.

　
*** Why are not all approvals of the detailed designs being sought in advance of commencement of construction as is required by the laws of this Country? Why has the Highways Division of the Ministry of Works, responsible for the government business of infrastructure, not been put in charge of this project as is required so that a Permanent Secretary as required by 85(1) of the Constitution and not a private CEO from NIDCO might be responsible for spending taxpayers money?

So many breaches! Clearly this madness is a case of "whom the gods will destroy".
　

He noted that they will continue with the Golconda to Debe phase of the highway while also starting from Point Fortin to Mon Desir allowing for sufficient time to address issues with the Debe to Mon Desir segment "as we attempt to ensure persons are properly compensated".
He said the project, for which the sod was turned on January 25, 2011 and was scheduled to end in April 2015, was on target. He noted it was being done in a phased approach, with phase one from Golconda to Debe.
"We are well on our way with phase one where clearing and grubbing between Golconda and Papourie Road have been completed and work continues by the contractor OAS Construtora and its sub-contractors," he said.
Warner said some of the benefits of the highway include reducing travel time between rural areas and other urban areas; helping to remedy "a lengthy and painful stretch of road between San Fernando and Point Fortin", and thousands of skilled and unskilled workers will be demanded in various phases and a minimum of 40 per cent must be local.

　
*** The TT$5 billion you are stealing from us to give to FIFA can provide permanent employment for thousands of these same workers as opposed to the crumbs you are now promising them here.
　
　
Roger

[kemist]

　
*** No. The feasibility study done by the consultant MMM Group of Canada gives a figure of US$500 million (about TT$3.1 billion) for the entire network of 70 km of highway. This means that the 47 km or so portion of this entire network that this government is now building should cost roughly TT$2.1 billion.
　

Comparing the MMM link to the GOTT link: Both of them say that the plans are to build 4 lane and expand the already existing 2 lane highways into 4 lanes.

But to me it gets confusing where MMM is referring to it as 70km of road and the Govt is referring to 47 km of highway.

If MMM is referring to a road as 2 lanes, then I calculate the distance to be 78.4 km total. If the GOTT is referring to the highways as 4 lanes, then i calculate the distance to be 45.1 km. Both of my calculations are within acceptable errors imo, because each of the eight distances given were approximate. The question is whether or not the premise of my calculations is correct.

[kemist]

　
*** Where did you get this notion from?
　

I recall reading where Jack handed over a cheque for $1.5b to get the Pt Fortin end started. I cannot remember the site. I am finding this article but the video link seems to be broken. You can still see the title though.

[kemist]

　
*** Says who or which feasibility study or estimate?

　　
*** The feasibility study done by MMM Group would have included this cost in arriving at their TT$2.1 billion total cost.

Roger

That is a very big assumption to make. I'm not seeing that on the MMM's website.

What is the value of the 300 households to be relocated?

Very good question. And also how are they going about this - are they paying the homeowners for their land as well and then relocating them to new land which they are paying for again? There are too many unanswered questions surrounding this $2.1 b issue.

[snowbird]

Snowbird Says
　
*** Snowbird, wasn't it you who supported Police Commissioner Gibbs hook, line and sinker when I first launched attack on him for his alleged "wickedness" against our citizens and Country? Did you not at that time advise him to take Trinidad's $100,000. per month salary, serve out his time without solving crime, then head back home to Canada?
　
He is effectively of the Peoples' Partnership regime and is displaying the same "consideration to peoples concerns" as Kamla which thing you now pretend to oppose.
　
　
Roger

I supported Gibbsy.... not only as a Canadian.... but as someone who was given a contract....and so was willing to give it his best shot. If you took the time to follow any of my other post.... you would see where I said.....Gibbsy can't solve T&T's problems..... he is not up to the task....it takes a different mind set to deal with the criminal element in T&T....hell, he would have problems even understanding the midset of the memember of the TTPS ....de man kar tink lik ah Trini....an dem kar tink like Canadian.
My suggestion to him was to .....take de money an run..... I fully expect him to be.....discharged


.....Problem is ..... some of you silly people expected an outsider to come in .....and in a few months ....resolved a problem and a situation that took 50 years to get to the point it is at.
Roger, if that is the kind of expectation T&T.... de PP.... de PNM or any other Trini group had.... allyuh recruited the wrong person..... Allyuh should have recruited .... God Almighty himself.... or at least a reasonably facsimile....someone who could at least .... 'walk on water' ...thing with Gibbs is that he could walk on water.....he just forgot to tell allyuh..... it was frozen at the time

buh lik ah say.... wen it comes tuh Trinis.... it have one born everyday

[roger]

　
[quote] Kemit says

Comparing the MMM link to the GOTT link: Both of them say that the plans are to build 4 lane and expand the already existing 2 lane highways into 4 lanes.

But to me it gets confusing where MMM is referring to it as 70km of road and the Govt is referring to 47 km of highway.

　
*** This is how the MMM Group report also refers to the project:

The project involved techno-economic feasibility, detailed engineering design and contract document preparation for

a total of over 70 km of freeways and highways, including interchanges, grade separation and drainage structures and river bridges.

　
So whereas I do not deny your claim that it gets confusing to you I see this your confusion as due not to any fault of the reports themselves but to your own efforts at confusing yourself.


[quote] If MMM is referring to a road as 2 lanes...[quote]
　
*** What is the basis of this supposition? A highway is a road and your opening paragraph says that the proposed facility, whether called a road or highway, is to be 4 lanes.
　
　

If MMM is referring to a road as 2 lanes, then I calculate the distance to be 78.4 km total.

　
*** Even though this is evidently a nonsensical argument you are building here can you still show how you arrived at the 78.4 km distance?
　

If the GOTT is referring to the highways as 4 lanes, then i calculate the distance to be 45.1 km. Both of my calculations are within acceptable errors imo, because each of the eight distances given were approximate. The question is whether or not the premise of my calculations is correct.

　
*** Well to me it is a foregone conclusion that your premise is not correct but my question is why are you going through all the trouble of this assumption and analysis in the face of the obvious facts to try to defend Jack and his TT$7.2 billion highway claim?
　
Kemit says

I recall reading where Jack handed over a cheque for $1.5b to get the Pt Fortin end started. I cannot remember the site. I am finding

this article but the video link seems to be broken. You can still see the title though.

　
*** Ok. I recall that incident now. In fact, at the time that that $1.5b downpayment on the highway was made I recall saying to myself that that was pretty much the full cost of the highway they were paying up front so that all payments that should come after might be stolen.
　
This TT$1.5 billion, in my view and by my calculations, sounds quite adequate to deliver the highway facility including land acquisition which from all indications will cost less than TT$ 0.2 billion (i.e. TT$200 million ).
　
　
Kemit says

That is a very big assumption to make. I'm not seeing that on the MMM's website.

　
*** MMM says that their contract involved

...techno-economic feasibility, detailed engineering design and

contract document preparation for a total of over 70 km of freeways and highways, including interchanges, grade separation and drainage structures and river bridges.

　
A contract document is a very detailed legal document that tells the contractor all that he must do and the client all that he must pay on a project so that a contract document must include all project costs. Land acquisition is a part of this project and so must have been included in MMM's cost estimates or else MMM would have not given us the feasibility report that we paid them for.
　
Therefore, my assumption that they did include land acquisition cost in their final figure is not a "very big assumption" as you claim.
　
Furthermore, like I said earlier, I also did my own private rough estimate that included land acquisition cost and my figure was close to that given by MMM's detailed study suggesting that they too as required must have included land acquisition cost in their estimate.
　
　
Kemit says

Very good question. And also how are they going about this - are they paying the homeowners for their land as well and then relocating them to new land which they are paying for again?

　
*** These are some of the questions Jack Warner, the Peoples Partnership and NIDCO must answer the public, in my view. They must also answer how they arrived at their TT$ 7.2 billion overall cost for the project.
　
　

There are too many unanswered questions surrounding this $2.1 b issue.

　
*** On the contrary, there sure are too many unanswered questions surrounding the TT$7.2 billion highway issue. All queries against a TT$2.1 billion cost being the cost for the San Fernando to Point Fortin highway have been successfully addressed, in my view.
　
　
Roger

[roger]

　
Snowbird says

I supported Gibbsy.... not only as a Canadian.... but as someone who was given a contract....and so was willing to give it his best shot.

　
*** Snowbird, I find you make too much of an effort to prove your 'Canadianness' and to give the impression that you are white. Are you white? Why are you as a Canadian always on a Trinidadian site, what are your interests here?
　
　

If you took the time to follow any of my other post.... you would see where I said.....Gibbsy can't solve T&T's problems..... he is not up to the task....it takes a different mind set to deal with the criminal element in T&T....hell, he would have problems even understanding the midset of the memember of the TTPS ....

de man kar tink lik ah Trini....an dem kar tink like Canadian.
My suggestion to him was to .....take de money an run..... I fully expect him to be.....discharged

　
*** Very ironic: you are talking 'trini talk' but giving Trinidad your worst wishes.
　

Problem is ..... some of you silly people expected an outsider to come in .....and in a few months ....resolved a problem and a situation that took 50 years to get to the point it is at.

　
*** Well from where I sit I see it as possible for anyone with the knowhow, even an outsider, to solve the crime situation in Trinidad and Tobago in just a few months. So the fact that Gibbs is not doing it while enjoying an inflated salary just shows the deceit of the man, in my view.
　
What I find silly, however, is that according to you large amounts of state funds in Canada are presently being laundered into the underworld through the slum areas there while citizens like yourself cannot see that the global underworld of which your Gibbs is evidently a part is ripping you all off.

Roger, if that is the kind of expectation T&T.... de PP.... de PNM or any other Trini group had.... allyuh recruited the wrong person..... Allyuh should have recruited .... God Almighty himself....

or at least a reasonably facsimile....someone who could at least .... 'walk on water' ...thing with Gibbs is that he could walk on water.....he just forgot to tell allyuh..... it was frozen at the time
buh lik ah say.... wen it comes tuh Trinis.... it have one born everyday

　
*** You are right, the problems of this world will not be solved by the children of this world for they are the cause of the problems and so cannot be part of the solution. Our global problems must be solved by those of us who are sons of God: he came unto his own and his own received him not but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. [John 1:11-12]
　
　
Roger

[Angie]

　
Snowbird says
　
*** Snowbird, I find you make too much of an effort to prove your 'Canadianness' and to give the impression that you are white. Are you white? Why are you as a Canadian always on a Trinidadian site, what are your interests here?
　
　

　
*** Very ironic: you are talking 'trini talk' but giving Trinidad your worst wishes.
　

　
*** Well from where I sit I see it as possible for anyone with the knowhow, even an outsider, to solve the crime situation in Trinidad and Tobago in just a few months. So the fact that Gibbs is not doing it while enjoying an inflated salary just shows the deceit of the man, in my view.
　
What I find silly, however, is that according to you large amounts of state funds in Canada are presently being laundered into the underworld through the slum areas there while citizens like yourself cannot see that the global underworld of which your Gibbs is evidently a part is ripping you all off.



　
*** You are right, the problems of this world will not be solved by the children of this world for they are the cause of the problems and so cannot be part of the solution. Our global problems must be solved by those of us who are sons of God: he came unto his own and his own received him not but as many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name. [John 1:11-12]
　
　
Roger

Hallelujah! Preach it brother!