Why the belief in God?

[The Expatriate]

Aside from yours truly, I don't know if there are any pantheists here. There may be because it has been observed that there are probably more people who hold pantheistic beliefs than there are people who believe in any or all of the major religions who believe in a transcendental being, aka God.

The thing is many of them don't know that there is a name for what they believe. What is more is, there are a few different schools of pantheistic thought.

Basically, strict pantheists do not believe in a transcendental God, that is to say one who exists outside of the universe or multiverses, created it and has a hand in it's destiny or life here on earth, etc. How do I definite it? So called God is literally everything that exists within the universe or multi-verses. That is to say, God is literally all matter and that's all there is to a definition of God. For me personally there was never any big bang also, and here is a quote from a website that supports my view:

Pantheism has often been accused of atheism, and not just because it rejects the idea of a personal creator God. Strict or naturalistic pantheism believes that the Universe either originated itself out of nothing, or has existed forever. Modern scientific pantheism is materialistic. It believes that design in the universe can be fully accounted for by principles of evolution and self-organization. It does not believe in separate spirits or survival of the soul after death. More here if anyone cares to read on: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PANTHEISM.html

And for the person who mentioned the wonderful movie The Matrix. Here's a nice video regarding the subject matter that that great film brings into question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6DWf7sTQOU

Do take the time to check it out. It is the stuff of the classical philosophical writers and some of the brightest minds ever.

[kemist]

For me personally there was never any big bang also, and here is a quote from a website that supports my view:

Pantheism has often been accused of atheism, and not just because it rejects the idea of a personal creator God. Strict or naturalistic pantheism believes that the Universe either originated itself out of nothing, or has existed forever. Modern scientific pantheism is materialistic. It believes that design in the universe can be fully accounted for by principles of evolution and self-organization. It does not believe in separate spirits or survival of the soul after death. More here if anyone cares to read on: http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/PANTHEISM.html

Hi
thanks for the links.

I'm just confused about what's quoted above: How does that support your views on the big bang?

[edyle]

So, what is the consequence, if any, of you being a pantheist.

I mean for example, a Catholic might take time to go to church and his religion has the consequence of actions he/she takes in life with respect to male/female relationships, do's and don'ts with respect to lying and stealing etc.
A Hindu... well, I'm not familiar but similarly I suppose it would affect certain actions / behaviours.

So I'm not asking for an answer that is about what you think you think or some philosophical description. I am asking about actions, behaviours etc. What is/are the consequences of your considering yourself a pantheist?

[Sirius]

The Expatriate, thank you for a fresh perspective on this matter.

Reading what you have written I might classify as a pantheist, though I usually refer to myself as simply "general spiritual without belonging to any religion". You will also see me speaking of God not being the creator of the Universe and the possibility of a spiritual plane of existence but not a divine one.

@edyle I think for those who view the world without a specific religion, there is no such thing as predefined consequence. We try to do "good" because it is the most likely path to lead to 1) better relationships with those around us and 2) a better future for our descendants.

[The Expatriate]

Hi
thanks for the links.

I'm just confused about what's quoted above: How does that support your views on the big bang?

Hi Kemist. I'll reply to your question as soon as I get a chance. I am at work now so I can't say much as I'm just stealing a little time on the compuer here.

[The Expatriate]

So, what is the consequence, if any, of you being a pantheist.

I mean for example, a Catholic might take time to go to church and his religion has the consequence of actions he/she takes in life with respect to male/female relationships, do's and don'ts with respect to lying and stealing etc.
A Hindu... well, I'm not familiar but similarly I suppose it would affect certain actions / behaviours.

So I'm not asking for an answer that is about what you think you think or some philosophical description. I am asking about actions, behaviours etc. What is/are the consequences of your considering yourself a pantheist?

Hi edyle: I'll reply to you asap. I'm at work now so I can't right now.

[edyle]

The Expatriate, thank you for a fresh perspective on this matter.

Reading what you have written I might classify as a pantheist, though I usually refer to myself as simply "general spiritual without belonging to any religion". You will also see me speaking of God not being the creator of the Universe and the possibility of a spiritual plane of existence but not a divine one.

@edyle I think for those who view the world without a specific religion, there is no such thing as predefined consequence. We try to do "good" because it is the most likely path to lead to 1) better relationships with those around us and 2) a better future for our descendants.

I'm not sure about 'predefined consequence'.
I'm not asking if there is some defined philosophy associated with considering yourself a pantheist;
I'm asking, what in your view are the EFFECTS ( - IF ANY) of what you supposedly believe in terms of your actions or would-be actions.

As an example, my own philosophy: roughly summarised:
We all die;
not point in fear of death:
..... (blah blah blah)
Eventual CONSEQUENCE or EFFECT:
Some things are worth getting killed for.
Another effect is I smoke and I don't care; so it's going to kill me but I'm gonna dead anyway; wont be the first wont be the last.

Another example would be what you see in the US with religious fundamentalists fiercely opposed to abortion.

[The Expatriate]

Hi
thanks for the links.

I'm just confused about what's quoted above: How does that support your views on the big bang?

Kemist, in that paragraph you quoted there is a sentence that explains exactly what I believe: To requote: Strict or naturalistic pantheism believes that the Universe either originated itself out of nothing, or has existed forever.

I believe the universe has existed forever. I don't believe it was formed out of a big bang. To me science offers poor evidence about this big bang theory and the "scientific" arguments are largely speculative, and I certainly don't believe in any God creationist account of our or any existence.

[The Expatriate]

So, what is the consequence, if any, of you being a pantheist.

I mean for example, a Catholic might take time to go to church and his religion has the consequence of actions he/she takes in life with respect to male/female relationships, do's and don'ts with respect to lying and stealing etc.
A Hindu... well, I'm not familiar but similarly I suppose it would affect certain actions / behaviours.

So I'm not asking for an answer that is about what you think you think or some philosophical description. I am asking about actions, behaviours etc. What is/are the consequences of your considering yourself a pantheist?

Edyle, the consequences of my believing what I do is simple: I simply try to enjoy each day, especially when I have time to myself, meaning I'm not at work or doing chores or something like that. For me it's lights out at the end of this journey; there is no soul or spirit or any such thing to go anywhere, far less enter any pearly gates, or burn forever in hell for not being pious and God fearing and respecting His word.

That said, to me the question of God is a trifle. The question of reality or what is real or is there any such thing as reality? In other words, the subject of the video I posted is the disturbing matter.

[edyle]

Edyle, the consequences of my believing what I do is simple: I simply try to enjoy each day, especially when I have time to myself, meaning I'm not at work or doing chores or something like that. For me it's lights out at the end of this journey; there is no soul or spirit or any such thing to go anywhere, far less enter any pearly gates, or burn forever in hell for not being pious and God fearing and respecting His word.

That said, to me the question of God is a trifle. The question of reality or what is real or is there any such thing as reality? In other words, the subject of the video I posted is the disturbing matter.

Ah, there is something I understand:

For me it's lights out at the end of this journey

Now here is a question:
Do you actually believe it's lights out at the end of this journey,
Or
are you actually more agnostic on that point.

[The Expatriate]

Ah, there is something I understand:


Now here is a question:
Do you actually believe it's lights out at the end of this journey,
Or
are you actually more agnostic on that point.

I am in no way shape or form agnostic. At the end of this journey my belief and I'm assured of it is, it's the end. Without the brain working and sense perception there is no reality, no "real" world, nothing. Try to fathom it, it's impossible but try. No brain equals no sense of consciousness, no sense perception, no ability to hear, touch, taste, feel or smell, no brain equals no biological supercomputer to process the electrical pulses that it interprets and projects outward giving definition to what we call "reality" or the world, or "universe." It's all a mental illusion, like a dream that ends when the biological supercomputer is gone. There is no material world, no universe, nothing, without beings that are self-aware to give credence to the illusion of reality. The same holds true for concepts like the mind, soul or spirit. What are these but workings or conceptualizations of the brain?

The concept of God is nothing but another of our many thought processes and conceptualizations. It means everything yet the paradox is it means nothing at the same time. Strange place this "world" is that we live in. Very strange.

[edyle]

I am in no way shape or form agnostic. At the end of this journey my belief and I'm assured of it is, it's the end. Without the brain working and sense perception there is no reality, no "real" world, nothing. Try to fathom it, it's impossible but try. No brain equals no sense of consciousness, no sense perception, no ability to hear, touch, taste, feel or smell, no brain equals no biological supercomputer to process the electrical pulses that it interprets and projects outward giving definition to what we call "reality" or the world, or "universe." It's all a mental illusion, like a dream that ends when the biological supercomputer is gone. There is no material world, no universe, nothing, without beings that are self-aware to give credence to the illusion of reality. The same holds true for concepts like the mind, soul or spirit. What are these but workings or conceptualizations of the brain?

The concept of God is nothing but another of our many thought processes and conceptualizations. It means everything yet the paradox is it means nothing at the same time. Strange place this "world" is that we live in. Very strange.

Sorry about the impression that I was suggesting you might be agnostic;
I was not suggesting so; in any case you have answered the question.

You are not agnostic on that point about the end of life.

That would be where we differ. I'm agnostic on that point;
Or to avoid the confusion perhaps I should say
I have no belief as to whether death is a complete end or a transition state of some sort; to me it is of little if any, consequence.

In your case, it would appear to me, that if you truly believe that

At the end of this journey my belief and I'm assured of it is, it's the end

then this would have consequences regarding what you are likely or unlikely to do, as compared to myself. I wonder if you understand what I am saying.


Of course, in the final analysis, anybody can say they believe this or that but the proof is in the pudding; when real decision time comes, that is when you find out what they actually do believe.

[edyle]

From Wiki:

Pantheism is the view that the Universe (Nature) and God (or divinity) are identical.^[1] Pantheists thus do not believe in a personal, anthropomorphic or creator god. The word derives from the Greek (pan) meaning "all" and the Greek (theos) meaning "God". As such, Pantheism denotes the idea that "God" is best seen as a process of relating to the Universe.^[2] Although there are divergences within Pantheism, the central ideas found in almost all versions are the Cosmos as an all-encompassing unity and the sacredness of Nature.

from thefreedictionary.com

pan·the·ism (pnth-zm)n.1. A doctrine identifying the Deity with the universe and its phenomena.
2. Belief in and worship of all gods.

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panthe·ist n.
panthe·istic, panthe·isti·cal adj.
panthe·isti·cal·ly adv.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

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pantheism [ˈpænθɪˌɪzəm]n1. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) the doctrine that God is the transcendent reality of which man, nature, and the material universe are manifestations
2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) any doctrine that regards God as identical with the material universe or the forces of nature
3. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) readiness to worship all or a large number of godspantheist n
pantheistic , pantheistical adj
pantheistically adv


Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003

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pantheism1. the belief that identifies God with the universe.
2. the belief that God is the only reality, transcending all, and that the universe and everything in it are mere manifestations of Him. — pantheist, n., adj. — pantheistic, adj.

Actually, that #2 definition at the top was what I was thinking when I first started reading the post.
"Belief in and worship of all gods."

[The Expatriate]

From Wiki:



from thefreedictionary.com



Actually, that #2 definition at the top was what I was thinking when I first started reading the post.
"Belief in and worship of all gods."

This is a good definition: 2. (Christian Religious Writings / Theology) any doctrine that regards God as identical with the material universe or the forces of nature

There are different schools of thought regarding exactly what it is or isn't. I don't get caught up in any of that. That definition in bold above is how I think of "God." God for me and pantheists in general is merely a synonym for the so called material universal or all matter that exists, so for those who believe in a transcendental God as creator of everything, there is little or no difference between us and an atheist, which is fine by me because I don't believe in anything Biblical, or in the Torah or the Koran, etc. I studied those religious texts for years, minus the Koran, and nothing more involving a transcendental God for me please was my final analysis.

For me it must be knowledge gained through scientific study or empirical knowledge only. Using the powers of observation is all we have to make sense of the "world." I don't believe in ghosts, spirits or anything supernatural.