Why the belief in God?

[Sirius]

As the title says, why the belief in God?

I cannot find any supreme spiritual being as being responsible for creating everything that there is. I find it hard to believe that there are forces of pure good and evil, a.k.a. God and the Devil, simply because we make our own choices in life and we reap what we sow, for better or for worse. Not to mention that it seems a pretty self centered belief that through all the vastness of the cosmos, some God would really be concerned about what a few creatures on a little rock to do one another. At the end of the day, if we or even our entire planet were destroyed tomorrow, the Universe would never even notice.

I have heard enough that life and the Universe is "just so beautiful" and "just so complex" and "just so vast" and "the <holy book here> says so" that "there must be a creator" and I'm sorry but that does not fly. It only says that many are not willing to look beyond simplistic thinking and childhood teachings; that they are baffled by what they cannot comprehend and therefore seek a supernatural explanation.

So I ask, without the dropped-jaw wonderment of what surrounds us, what is the fundamental prerequisite for God? Even the idea of a spiritual plane of existence, which I do happen to believe may exist, can easily be viewed as a higher level of consciousness that still does not require the presence of an almighty God.

[Falcon]

It is always frustrating to hear of people constantly trying to find proof of God. I don't mean the sincere pursuit of a missing element in your very being, but the nonchalant dismissal of God doesnt exist because I am not bothered to try and look.

I believe in God because I have seen many occasions in my life where situations and events beyond man's control were supernaturally changed. I have seen many phenomena in terms of visions, promptings, pictures. I have seen friends who have had the same thing happen to them. I have seen praying women toil for years and years and eventually grow themselves into powerful women and have all their prayers answered. There is so much overwhelming evidence in my life and around me about not only God's existence but His actual closeness that it is a respectfully fearful, humbling feeling. Then there is the journey of growth in the Lord that is the most exciting trip you can ever take.

You say you cant accept that God is bothered with tiny humans on a tiny planet, but that is the essence of God and His love. Why do we constantly limit the concept of 'a god' by ascribing Him our selfish value system? The very grandeur of God is something far beyond what we could envisage because of our very nature. When someone asks God sincerely for something, and gets it, they would tell you that God has blessed them even far beyond what they could have ever asked. Same with the Universe I expect, that He is able to make the grandest things because, just because.

When I see the sheikhs in the ME and the way they live, if they need to go to a country, they build an airport rather than drive 100 miles from the Intl one. They build a palace in a remote areas because they expect to stay there about 1 day per year, and 'why stay in a hotel'? How much more Almightly God, who doesnt even have to work to a budget, auditors or judges of extravagance?

There is no pre-requisite for God. He doesnt exist for us, in fact it's the other way around. Always remember, faith is a choice. So anyone is free to believe or not believe. Remember we were the creation, not Him. He breathed life into a mud being and what a wondrous sight that must have been when Adam opened his eyes and looked into the face of God in the garden.

I always tell people it is easy to find out if God exists or not.
Just in your quiet time, you ask Him. That's all. Use a mirror, or use your eyes closed, heck even use your eyes open, but as long as you ask sincerely, you'll find out for yourself.

(sorry for the long post)

[Redman]

What he said^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So I ask, without the dropped-jaw wonderment of what surrounds us, what is the fundamental prerequisite for God?

I think The prerequisite is Faith-the choice to believe.

Even the idea of a spiritual plane of existence, which I do happen to believe may exist, can easily be viewed as a higher level of consciousness that still does not require the presence of an almighty God.

Even the idea of the presence of an almighty God, which I do happen to believe may exist, can easily be viewed as a spiritual plane of existence that still does not require higher level of consciousness

This works too



Maybe we talking the same thing-but chose to explain them differently?


Later

[edyle]

As the title says, why the belief in God?

I cannot find any supreme spiritual being as being responsible for creating everything that there is. I find it hard to believe that there are forces of pure good and evil, a.k.a. God and the Devil, simply because we make our own choices in life and we reap what we sow, for better or for worse. Not to mention that it seems a pretty self centered belief that through all the vastness of the cosmos, some God would really be concerned about what a few creatures on a little rock to do one another. At the end of the day, if we or even our entire planet were destroyed tomorrow, the Universe would never even notice.

I have heard enough that life and the Universe is "just so beautiful" and "just so complex" and "just so vast" and "the <holy book here> says so" that "there must be a creator" and I'm sorry but that does not fly. It only says that many are not willing to look beyond simplistic thinking and childhood teachings; that they are baffled by what they cannot comprehend and therefore seek a supernatural explanation.

So I ask, without the dropped-jaw wonderment of what surrounds us, what is the fundamental prerequisite for God? Even the idea of a spiritual plane of existence, which I do happen to believe may exist, can easily be viewed as a higher level of consciousness that still does not require the presence of an almighty God.

First of all : belief.

Often, and as an example, recently, talking to a coworker of mine, a woman, who happened to describe a somewhat miraculous event at her local church (a deaf/dumb child was cured of deafness), at some point while talking to her about religion and belief, I raised my eyebrow looking over her head and said, "There's a cockroach on your head".

She immediately got up and tried to flick her hand off the top of her head to get the cockroach off.
There was no cockroach; I was merely making a point about belief. She believed that there was a cockroach on her head.
The proof is in the pudding as they say.

Anybody can say they 'believe' xyz, but what does it really mean and significantly, is it even true that they do believe??? That was the point of the cockroach demonstration; my coworker DID believe that there was a cockroach over her head as EVIDENCED by her attempts to get it off.

On the other hand, there are many con men out there who will play tricks and tell stories enough to get people to BELIEVE some (perhaps) fairytale, WHICH THE CON MAN CAN'T PROVE, but the end result being that he lives high off the hog and a whole bunch of people look up to him.

By the way, I should mention that I basically grew up somewhat religious, (not overtly pious and spellbound, merely believing the catholic teachings) and at one time for years as a young boy and teenager, had intended to become a priest- a missionary, not as a result of family influence but as a result of the catholic schooling that I attended.

At this stage of my life I have gone beyond that and I suppose might be considered a pragmatist or something. I consider most talk of god and theology to be rather irrelevant, although the teachings of religious scriptures I consider to be usefull in the upbringing of children and therefore most relevant.

Second:
" what is the fundamental prerequisite for God?"
I dont understand what is the question, but I'm thinking its meant to refer again to FAITH?
I think of it as 'magic'.
Magic is whatever you don't understand and CONSIDER NON-UNDERSTANDABLE.

Centuries ago, a white man pointed a stick there was a noise and smoke and an ameridian dropped dead. The other amerindians considered that MAGIC. Today we just say the white man shot the amerindian. No magic there.

But if you see a deaf child cured of his deafness in a church in maybe a few minutes (I suppose), the average person will consider that MAGIC - NON-UNDERSTANDABLE.

I do not consider it NON-UNDERSTANDABLE, merely that I don't know how it was done. Even if it was done using CHI, Kundalini, HonkyDonkeyPoo, or some other things which do not have names yet or are not known by current science, it was STILL done somehow, :: the big difference is : do you consider it NON-UNDERSTANDABLE.

Third: THE MATRIX.
I think it's interesting to consider the idea of people living in a MATRIX of BELIEF.
People who do not see the real world in a pragmatic sense, but always have to do what may appear to be some strange thing because of some strange religious belief.

Whether it be RELIGION or "POLITIC" (what passes for politics nowadays, which in my view can be viewed as of a religious thing), many people can be led to belief some story or system of tales and explanations vastly different from a non-superficial view of the reality.

Hey, for example, this fairy tale about the 20 hijackers on Sept 11th 2001, and for some reason everybody is expected to close their eyes religiously and not ask why was there no investigation into the sudden destruction of 3 skyscrapers to look for evidence and find suspect; or why the coverup of the PUT OPTIONS. The masses and led to operate within a superficial facade of a MATRIX and avoid looking too closely.

Regards the 'Matrix' I am of course referring to the Movie.

[guyguy]

Sirius,
Belief in "GOD" or a supernatural being is due to a personal revelation or revelations. One has to first experience such an occurrence before one can have that "aha" moment when the knowledge of a "GOD" becomes apparent. Falcon made a very good statement about his experiences, and although I would be considered to be a non-religious fanatic, even a "doubting Thomas," I, like Falcon, have had many personal experiences that cannot be explained neither by science nor natural phenomena. Too many unexplainable things have occurred in my life that make me believe that there are or is a supernatural force or forces at work. I just happen to call this force "GOD."

[greall]

It is always frustrating to hear of people constantly trying to find proof of God. I don't mean the sincere pursuit of a missing element in your very being, but the nonchalant dismissal of God doesnt exist because I am not bothered to try and look.

I believe in God because I have seen many occasions in my life where situations and events beyond man's control were supernaturally changed. I have seen many phenomena in terms of visions, promptings, pictures. I have seen friends who have had the same thing happen to them. I have seen praying women toil for years and years and eventually grow themselves into powerful women and have all their prayers answered. There is so much overwhelming evidence in my life and around me about not only God's existence but His actual closeness that it is a respectfully fearful, humbling feeling. Then there is the journey of growth in the Lord that is the most exciting trip you can ever take.

You say you cant accept that God is bothered with tiny humans on a tiny planet, but that is the essence of God and His love. Why do we constantly limit the concept of 'a god' by ascribing Him our selfish value system? The very grandeur of God is something far beyond what we could envisage because of our very nature. When someone asks God sincerely for something, and gets it, they would tell you that God has blessed them even far beyond what they could have ever asked. Same with the Universe I expect, that He is able to make the grandest things because, just because.

When I see the sheikhs in the ME and the way they live, if they need to go to a country, they build an airport rather than drive 100 miles from the Intl one. They build a palace in a remote areas because they expect to stay there about 1 day per year, and 'why stay in a hotel'? How much more Almightly God, who doesnt even have to work to a budget, auditors or judges of extravagance?

There is no pre-requisite for God. He doesnt exist for us, in fact it's the other way around. Always remember, faith is a choice. So anyone is free to believe or not believe. Remember we were the creation, not Him. He breathed life into a mud being and what a wondrous sight that must have been when Adam opened his eyes and looked into the face of God in the garden.

I always tell people it is easy to find out if God exists or not.
Just in your quiet time, you ask Him. That's all. Use a mirror, or use your eyes closed, heck even use your eyes open, but as long as you ask sincerely, you'll find out for yourself.

(sorry for the long post)

The post wasn't long...

I may not be as devout as my mom [the Deputy Pope for the Western Hemisphere] wants me to but I do believe that there are things which cannot be explained by science or logic.I am by no means agnostic or atheist but I also sometimes question the concept which has been ingrained into civilization from the moment that we looked in the sky and saw the fiery disc.

Faith defines a lot of us to the extremes of fundamentalism or 'laissez-faireness' thus I think that it would be hard to remove the personal aspect as per question the existence and/or belief in God.

Greg

[Sirius]

Interesting posts, and I dare say expected ones, too. Perhaps though I should reveal a little about myself to bring more perspective to what I am saying and asking.

I was born a Muslim and attended a Catholic school. Over my life I have gone from meekly following along with my birth faith to praying, questioning and reflecting. I have been at one point, been put on a stool and prayed over as though a little demon. I have watched people's most dire and heartfelt prayers fail. I have found that if there is a God, then he is a hands off God.

I believe in that higher plane of existence for I have managed to feel it for myself. While not exactly projected into the etheric or astral planes, I have gotten far enough to know that my consciousness is capable of leaving my physical body which is plenty enough to open my eyes to the existence of something more out there. I've seen and participated in debates on belief versus disbelief to the death, so to speak. I have changed my views on God and religion several times over.

I hope by this point it is understood that I am not asking the question as a flippant atheist. I am however naturally scientifically minded. I have been stumped, and unable to secure an answer for the ultimate questions: If God created everything, then who or what created God? If God is such a perfect creator, then why is life and the Universe upon close inspection, such colossally hostile, imbalanced things? The argument for intelligent design fails upon closer inspection. This is one of the questions I wish to pose to the forum: Why is it that the Universe can only exist because of God? Who says that it is not God that can only exist because of the Universe?

The only problem with that question, I am sure, is that it flies in the face of the whole creator of forever thing that we are all conditioned to believe in.

I actually really liked when Redman said the following: "Maybe we talking the same thing-but chose to explain them differently?"

I mentioned before about these spiritual planes of existence. Taking the word spiritual out of the picture, what we are really talking about is an energy force that runs through all living things. Personally, I think that when people talk about God, it is because they feel this force but they cannot explain it. Can it not be that when so desperately needing some sort of assistance, when "opening our hearts" to "God", all we are really doing is subconsciously tapping in to that life energy all around us?

Through the teachings we are all exposed to while growing up, on some level we feel that any such life energy, or "higher power", has to be a sort of conscious, intelligent, rationalizing, loving and creative being that is omnipresent, omnipotent and omniscient, even though we have absolutely no way of verifying such a claim - hence the popular counter-claim of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. We are raised to think that this "bearded man in the sky" is some sort of force for absolute good and justice who will reach out and fiddle with our lives if we really, truly, believe in and worship him. After all, at least that way it seems a little easier to relate to, no? A bit like the loving parent intervening to make sure we get through life's trials and tribulations.

[Poser]

I experience the cosmos as a intuitive whole … in a state of synthesis … and I experience the whole to be sacred … holy or divine.

This is my faith … and the truth of my faith is in the experience rather than the interpretations … in my life ...

I believe that God is required to connect us to a deeper understanding to answers that forces us to ask questions…...

,

[Falcon]

even though we have absolutely no way of verifying such a claim

Sirius, I addressed this above, as did GuyGuy.

[Sirius]

Sirius, I addressed this above, as did GuyGuy.

Falcon, you and guyguy made clear that your belief is because you feel it, you have had experiences, and you have had this "aha" moment. But, in the paragraph from which you quoted but 11 words to respond to, I was speaking about a much larger issue of calling something God that may not actually fit the popular perception of God the omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent creator of everything. Therefore, to simply respond with a quoted 11 words and a statement that you addressed it before is ignoring the greater context which you have not addressed.

I also bolded a major question I wish to pose. Again, it is: Why is it that the Universe can only exist because of God? Who says that it is not God that can only exist because of the Universe?


On another note, in your original post you said: "He breathed life into a mud being and what a wondrous sight that must have been when Adam opened his eyes and looked into the face of God in the garden."

Are you speaking literally or figuratively? I must ask because I am trying to evoke the difficult to answer questions here, trying to evoke real, thoughtful discussion. If you see it as literal, I ask how it fits into what we know of the evolution of life on this planet today. If you see it as figurative, I want to know what it is you see it as a metaphor for, and how it is human beings came to be on Earth.

Let us ask the difficult questions and actually make an effort to answer them...

[Falcon]

Ok

My aha moment wasn't because I couldn't explain some spectacular thing and decided 'it must be God'. It is clear as clear can be.

While I do believe that evolution is a real phenomenon that we see from the fossil records and even lately with sub species having an advantage over others, I do not subscribe to the notion that we evolved from monkeys, reptiles and unicellular creatures. The Bible states the dominion of man over all other creation. Therefore for me, animals and plants, being without souls, are free to evolve in the same way that geological features can change over time on a planet. Absolutely no confusion in my head about this.

I dont understand your bolded question. I will read it yet again, and try to get what you're asking.

[edyle]

" Why is it that the Universe can only exist because of God? Who says that it is not God that can only exist because of the Universe?"

We can turn that around the other way and say,
well, whatever it is that causes the Universe to exist, we'll call that 'God'.

[Sirius]

Ok

My aha moment wasn't because I couldn't explain some spectacular thing and decided 'it must be God'. It is clear as clear can be.

While I do believe that evolution is a real phenomenon that we see from the fossil records and even lately with sub species having an advantage over others, I do not subscribe to the notion that we evolved from monkeys, reptiles and unicellular creatures. The Bible states the dominion of man over all other creation. Therefore for me, animals and plants, being without souls, are free to evolve in the same way that geological features can change over time on a planet. Absolutely no confusion in my head about this.

I dont understand your bolded question. I will read it yet again, and try to get what you're asking.

Okay, understood - though I don't agree. What else do we call a soul than life energy that gives us consciousness and self awareness? Perhaps any sufficiently complex life form has it, and I think if that is the soul, then animals have it too. No matter what any holy book says, if these creatures do not have at their core whatever it is we do, they would not display the kind of emotion and capacity for learning and reasoning that they do.

I fully believe in evolution and that humanity's roots are in ancient primates. To me, we are too close genetically and in terms of fossils, there is a clear evolution in the direction of homo sapiens. I think it's just a matter of time before we figure out those missing links - I think any rational person would admit it's not one mere link that's missing.

" Why is it that the Universe can only exist because of God? Who says that it is not God that can only exist because of the Universe?"

We can turn that around the other way and say,
well, whatever it is that causes the Universe to exist, we'll call that 'God'.

I think that people just don't know what it is that caused all they see and feel around them and so they give it a name and assign it humanesque characteristics that they could better relate to. Of course, questioning these beliefs call into question the very essence of who and what they are, and most people are simply not prepared to permit such a violation of their comfort zone.

[edyle]

Ok

My aha moment wasn't because I couldn't explain some spectacular thing and decided 'it must be God'. It is clear as clear can be.

While I do believe that evolution is a real phenomenon that we see from the fossil records and even lately with sub species having an advantage over others, I do not subscribe to the notion that we evolved from monkeys, reptiles and unicellular creatures. The Bible states the dominion of man over all other creation. Therefore for me, animals and plants, being without souls, are free to evolve in the same way that geological features can change over time on a planet. Absolutely no confusion in my head about this.

I dont understand your bolded question. I will read it yet again, and try to get what you're asking.

If you understand evolution, then putting aside reptiles and unicellular lifeform,
don't you think that the modern day human and the modern day monkey have a common origin, perhaps millions of years ago?

What's a HOMINID? What's Homo Erectus? What's Homo Sapiens.
Did HOMINIDS (if they existed) have SOULS?

[Falcon]

Edyle, no, I don't believe hominid apes had souls.

Taxonomy is artificial. Research the 2004 paper by Nanda to see how birds aren't related to other birds just because the look the same.

[edyle]

Edyle, no, I don't believe hominid apes had souls.

Taxonomy is artificial. Research the 2004 paper by Nanda to see how birds aren't related to other birds just because the look the same.

Good; so "hominid apes" didn't have souls; I assume it will be useless repeating the question of whether hominids had souls; I'll assume from your answer that your response would be that hominids were probably more "ape" than... something else.

Now to the actual question which I did ask, and which you apparently did not notice or did not want to answer:

"don't you think that the modern day human and the modern day monkey have a common origin, perhaps millions of years ago?"

[Falcon]

Oh no, sorry, I didn't answer you.

I thought I was clear above when I spoke to Sirius when I said:

I do not subscribe to the notion that we evolved from monkeys

that would mean I don't believe in a common ancestor for 'man' and the apes or fossil records of hominid apes. Your hominid apes probably shared one, because that's how evolution works.

[edyle]

Oh no, sorry, I didn't answer you.

I thought I was clear above when I spoke to Sirius when I said:

that would mean I don't believe in a common ancestor for 'man' and the apes or fossil records of hominid apes. Your hominid apes probably shared one, because that's how evolution works.

Ok; interesting;
So the hominids or as you say 'hominid apes' didn't have souls;
Do you think that homo erectus evolved from hominids, and homo sapiens evoled from homo erectus?
Or is it that you think homo sapiens suddenly appeared, which is what I am suspecting about your comment about not believing in fossil records of hominid apes?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hominidae
Subfamily Homininae (or Hominidae)

• Homo – immediate ancestors of modern humans
  
  • Homo habilis†
  • Homo rudolfensis†
  • Homo ergaster†
  • Homo georgicus†
  • Homo erectus†
  • Homo cepranensis†
  • Homo antecessor†
  • Homo heidelbergensis†
  • Homo rhodesiensis†
  • Homo neanderthalensis†
  • Homo sapiens
    
    • Homo sapiens idaltu†
    • Archaic Homo sapiens (Cro-magnon)†
    
    
  • Homo floresiensis†
  
  
• Oreopithecus†(hominid status disputed)
• Paranthropus†
• Australopithecus†
• Sahelanthropus†(hominid status highly problematic)
• Orrorin†
• Ardipithecus†
• Kenyanthropus†

[Falcon]

Edyle, you are a very learned chap from your posts on physics and space.

But you keep asking me questions for which my views are clear above

Taxonomy is an artificial construct.
I do believe in fossil records charting the evolution of apes, and marking the extinction of some sub species.
Yes, I clearly said above, that man, homo sapiens, 'suddenly' appeared when God decided they should 'suddenly' be created.

[edyle]

Edyle, you are a very learned chap from your posts on physics and space.

But you keep asking me questions for which my views are clear above

Taxonomy is an artificial construct.
I do believe in fossil records charting the evolution of apes, and marking the extinction of some sub species.
Yes, I clearly said above, that man, homo sapiens, 'suddenly' appeared when God decided they should 'suddenly' be created.

Ok, I did see your mention of taxonomy before but I honestly couldnt figure out what it had to do with anything probably because I thought at first it was taxidermy you were talking about.

I gather overall that you seem to understand evolution and assume it occurred for all other species except Homo Sapiens.

(Except for a comment you made about birds earlier, which perhaps you were implying that some birds didn't evolve or the taxonomists might have got it wrong there)

[Falcon]

Wow, just wow.

[lexbarker]

Wow, just wow.

Is that what she said when you dropped you pants?

[Falcon]

[greall]

Is that what she said when you dropped you pants?

Greg

[edyle]

It seems to me it would make more sense to suppose that God created the soul; or even that God creates a new soul every time there is a new person;

as opposed to supposing that God "created" homo sapiens out of nowhere and didn't do it by evolution.