Six Weeks To SaveThe Euro ..

[miktay]

Carbs:

Thiz iz less capitalism than wild west Keyensian economics.

Keynesian economics iz widely practosed nowadays.

It iz predominates in China, the US and yes in the EZ.

It iz practised by the World Bank and the IMF.

It iz used in sweet sweet T&T.

Keynesian economists believe they can eliminate the downturn in a natural bidnezz cycle using debt (read: gubmint stimulus)

It iz the Keynesian economic theory that should be eliminated.

Not the bidnezz cycle.

[oecarb]

Keynesian economists believe they can eliminate the downturn in a natural bidnezz cycle using debt (read: gubmint stimulus)

It iz the Keynesian economic theory that should be eliminated.

Not the bidnezz cycle.

Miktay,

In my view, there is nothing wrong with debt per se.

What is important is what the debt (credit) is used for.

Not many of us can buy a house cash. But, by taking out a mortgage (read credit or debt) we can actually end up toward the end of our working life with a place to live - rent and mortgage free. We can even sell up and buy a cheaper house cash. So much easier to live on a pension then.

Governments can borrow for infrastructure. Businesses are more likely to start up if they can have access to raw materials, energy sources, a skilled workforce, transportation for their products etc. Oh - and if they can borrow money to build factories to make their goods.

Result: more employment, more money circulating, more taxes collected, more items being bought, more homes being built etc.

Why does Apple manufacture abroad, and especially in China? As the article explained, it’s not just about low wages. China also derives big advantages from the fact that so much of the supply chain is already there. A former Apple executive explained: “You need a thousand rubber gaskets? That’s the factory next door. You need a million screws? That factory is a block away.”

This is familiar territory to students of economic geography: the advantages of industrial clusters — in which producers, specialized suppliers, and workers huddle together to their mutual benefit — have been a running theme since the 19th century.

And Chinese manufacturing isn’t the only conspicuous example of these advantages in the modern world. Germany remains a highly successful exporter even with workers who cost, on average, $44 an hour — much more than the average cost of American workers. And this success has a lot to do with the support its small and medium-sized companies — the famed Mittelstand — provide to each other via shared suppliers and the maintenance of a skilled work force.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/27/op...cars.html?_r=2

[miktay]

Miktay,

In my view, there is nothing wrong with debt per se.

What is important is what the debt (credit) is used for.

Not many of us can buy a house cash. But, by taking out a mortgage (read credit or debt) we can actually end up toward the end of our working life with a place to live - rent and mortgage free. We can even sell up and buy a cheaper house cash. So much easier to live on a pension then.

Governments can borrow for infrastructure. Businesses are more likely to start up if they can have access to raw materials, energy sources, a skilled workforce, transportation for their products etc. Oh - and if they can borrow money to build factories to make their goods.

Result: more employment, more money circulating, more taxes collected, more items being bought, more homes being built etc.

Carbs:

When an individual borrows and can't repay he/she suffers the consequences.

The bank forecloses. The car iz repossessed. Wages are garnished.

When gubmint officials borrow and can't repay citizens suffer the consequences.

Imports become mo expensive. Capital controls are enacted. Austerity iz implemented.

There are no real consequences 2 gubmint burecrats 4 reckless spending.

Inna world dominated by Keynesian spend-now-pay-later economics citizens always lose.

Who then can blame gubmint officials 4 being careless spendthrifts and unresponsive 2 the people?

After all it's not their money.

Thiz iz the issue with gubmint burecrats taking on debt on behalf of the people.

Under Keynesianism gubmint decision makers suffer no consequences for poor decisions.

[miktay]

Cameron stirs the pot...

http://money.aol.co.uk/2012/01/31/ca...ver-banks-tax/

David Cameron has warned France that the UK could reap the benefit if it went ahead with a national levy on bank transactions to help pay for the economic crisis.

He said Britain's door would be open to any French banks wishing to leave the country to avoid paying the Financial Transactions Tax (FTT) that French president Nicolas Sarkozy has vowed to introduce if he is re-elected in May.

The Prime Minister and Chancellor George Osborne have insisted the FTT can only function if is applied globally, to ensure a level playing field in the banking sector. They have refused to take part in such a tax at EU level for fear of driving European banks to trade outside the union's jurisdiction.

Mr Cameron said in Davos last week that the decision by President Sarkozy to introduce such a tax without even the support of the rest of the EU was "mad".

On Monday night, after a summit of the 27 leaders in Brussels, Mr Cameron hit back at a Sarkozy jibe that France had a bigger, more thriving industrial sector than the UK.

The Prime Minister said President Sarkozy was a "remarkable" man for whom he was "full of admiration". London and Paris had rarely worked more closely together than on the Libyan crisis, he pointed out, but they did not agree on everything.

[oecarb]

Cameron stirs the pot...

http://money.aol.co.uk/2012/01/31/ca...ver-banks-tax/

David Cameron's party (The Conservative and Unionist Party) were against the introduction of the minimum wage and the idependence of the Bank of England, saying both would destroy business. Seventeen years later, they have made no attempts at reversing either.

Sarkozy's Financial Transactions Tax is proposed at 0.1% or €1 per €1,000. Would this make you move your business?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16783520

I'll bet other countries would pick it up and the UK will grudgingly follow.

[miktay]

David Cameron's party (The Conservative and Unionist Party) were against the introduction of the minimum wage and the idependence of the Bank of England, saying both would destroy business. Seventeen years later, they have made no attempts at reversing either.

Sarkozy's Financial Transactions Tax is proposed at 0.1% or €1 per €1,000. Would this make you move your business?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16783520

I'll bet other countries would pick it up and the UK will grudgingly follow.

Carbs:

Higher gubmint taxes in recessionary times?

Surely u and Mr. Sarkozy jest...

[oecarb]

Carbs:

Higher gubmint taxes in recessionary times?

Surely u and Mr. Sarkozy jest...

So what you think they should do in recessionary times, Breds?

Cut taxes and increase govt spending?

You must be a Keynes supporter in the closet.

[miktay]

So what you think they should do in recessionary times, Breds?
Cut taxes and increase govt spending?
You must be a Keynes supporter in the closet.

Carbs:

The proposed tax (aka Tobin tax) iz being pitched by Mr. Sarkoky as a tax upon big bidnezz.

And this has a nice political ring 2 it.

You know...the brave politician battles against the nefarious power of big bidnezz 4 the good of the common man.

But Mr. Sarkozy iz being disingenuous. The Tobin tax iz really a tax upon the people.

Should the tax becomes law financial firms...who donot leave France...will pass the added expense onto their customers who in turn will pass it down to their customers...and so on.

Eventually the cost will be bourne by the average Jaques.

'One' only has to look at the airlines and cellphone companies 4 current examples of thiz type of pass through pricing.

If the Tobin tax iz enacted yet another gubmint expense will be heaped pon the narrow shoulders of the common Frenchman.

[oecarb]

Carbs:

But Mr. Sarkozy iz being disingenuous. The Tobin tax iz really a tax upon the people.

Should the tax becomes law financial firms...who donot leave France...will pass the added expense onto their customers who in turn will pass it down to their customers...and so on.

Eventually the cost will be bourne by the average Jaques.

'One' only has to look at the airlines and cellphone companies 4 current examples of thiz type of pass through pricing.

If the Tobin tax iz enacted yet another gubmint expense will be heaped pon the narrow shoulders of the common Frenchman.

Miktay, as one who lives in France, I really cannot see how this tax would affect me.

Like I said, it is 0.1% of transaction costs and will only apply to shares.

However, I am puzzled as to how it will be enforced in an era of high-frequency electronic internet trading.

[miktay]

Miktay, as one who lives in France, I really cannot see how this tax would affect me.

Like I said, it is 0.1% of transaction costs and will only apply to shares.

However, I am puzzled as to how it will be enforced in an era of high-frequency electronic internet trading.

Carbs:

At thiz time the tax will be assessed on all trades of shares and cds...hi frequency or not...

The direct effect of the tax will be felt if you have French underwritten insurance products...

Indirectly...u will pay on everything else...

[Redman]

Just tax the exchange
Let the exchange pass it on

Later

[oecarb]

Just tax the exchange
Let the exchange pass it on

Later

Is there anything to stop dealers using foreign exchanges/bank accounts and trading electronically?
If I wanted to buy shares that are listed on the French stock exchange (CAC40), do I have to go through this exchange?

I ask this because Cameron seems to think that this tax would drive trade away.

[miktay]

Greek/Euro monkey bidnezz continues...

I ent kno why these people doh just pack up and go down by the river and cool theyself...

[Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Greek Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos headed to Brussels today as politicians in Athens narrowed their differences to the single issue of pension cuts needed to secure a 130 billion euro ($173 billion) bailout.
Talks stumbled over pensions and officials from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund gave Greece 15 more days to identify measures totaling 300 million euros. A euro region official said a Greek default will not be on the agenda of today’s emergency finance ministers’ meeting, which starts at 6 p.m. in Brussels.
“There are issues outstanding that must be resolved,” Venizelos told reporters in Athens today after a meeting with Prime Minister Lucas Papademos and EU and IMF officials that ended just before 6 a.m. “As the prime minister said, there is agreement on all the issues bar one.”
The latest hitch came after six days of talks as the political parties battled to complete a package that’s been on the table since July. Greece faces a 14.5 billion-euro bond payment on March 20 and is struggling to secure financing to avert a collapse of the economy that could spark a new round of contagion in the euro area

http://mobile.businessweek.com/news/...n-bailout.html

[oecarb]

Greek/Euro monkey bidnezz continues...

I ent kno why these people doh just pack up and go down by the river and cool theyself...


http://mobile.businessweek.com/news/...n-bailout.html

Miktay, I still dont know where you coming from. I living in the Eurozone and it look like you more worried than me.

[miktay]

Miktay, I still dont know where you coming from. I living in the Eurozone and it look like you more worried than me.

Carbs:

Dem Eurocrats selling yuh nancy story and cat in bag...again.

Giving the Greek gubmint money iz the same as giving the corner piper money. It will end up in a puff of smoke.

The money goes straight back to the bankers that made the bad loans

As thiz umpteenth bailout scherade continues am reminded of Oliver Twist.

Greece will need yet another bailout after the March deadline. The Greeks will be back at the 'negotiating' table: Please sir can I have some more?

When will it end?

[Redman]

When will it end?

I say Six weeks.


Later

[oecarb]

When will it end?

I say Six weeks.


Later

What! Not another six weeks like the six weeks of this thread which was started 21 weeks ago!!!

Still, you could be right. Merkel say she will give them till March 20th when the first payment is due to Greece. That is almost exactly six weeks.

[oecarb]

Carbs:

The money goes straight back to the bankers that made the bad loans

When will it end?

Well, by the time this money is paid, the banks would have hardly any sovereign debt left on their books. The ECB has been lending European banks money (three year loans) and accepting low grade debts as collateral. It has already lent 500 billion euros and is getting ready to open up the taps again. The banks will have got most of their money by the time Greece gets its bailout and, in fact, many have already deposited these loans back with the ECB.
.

Banks snap up €500bn in loans from European Central Bank

How does the ECB help?

The ECB estimates banks will need to re-finance €720bn (£602bn) of loans over the first three months of 2012. Rather than wait for overseas investors to reject the opportunity of renewing loans, the ECB has stepped in.

Does that mean the ECB has accepted lower grade loans?

Yes. Banks can offload some of their less than unsavoury loans at the ECB. They must leave their worst junk in the vaults, but the message from ECB boss, Mario Draghi, is that €489bn of funds have been exchanged with more than 500 banks and the collateral is not the highest grade. Reuters reports that €110bn of it was tapped by Italian banks.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...anks-loans-ecb

.
.

ECB reports record cash deposits from banks

The European Central Bank (ECB) has reported receiving record cash deposits of 412bn euros (£344bn; $539bn)......

..........The latest jump in deposits comes from cash lent to the banks by the ECB itself
last week in order to ward off a fresh banking crisis and credit crunch.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16338395

[miktay]

What! Not another six weeks like the six weeks of this thread which was started 21 weeks ago!!!

Still, you could be right. Merkel say she will give them till March 20th when the first payment is due to Greece. That is almost exactly six weeks.

Merkel hadda fix the bidnezz now 4 the banks 2! Get they March money.

Otherwise an involuntary haircut will trigger CDS payouts.

And then US banks go suffer.

[BW]

Merkel hadda fix the bidnezz now 4 the banks 2! Get they March money.

Otherwise an involuntary haircut will trigger CDS payouts.

And then US banks go suffer.

[oecarb]

Merkel hadda fix the bidnezz now 4 the banks 2! Get they March money.

Otherwise an involuntary haircut will trigger CDS payouts.

And then US banks go suffer.

That is capitalism.

As Max Keiser said "Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without Hell".

And them US banks done get bigtime bailout from the Fed? And they make European banks suffer selling them all those subprime mortgage derivatives.

[letric]

That is capitalism.

As Max Keiser said "Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without Hell".

And them US banks done get bigtime bailout from the Fed? And they make European banks suffer selling them all those subprime mortgage derivatives.

Interesting ...

[miktay]

That is capitalism.

As Max Keiser said "Capitalism without bankruptcy is like Christianity without Hell".

And them US banks done get bigtime bailout from the Fed? And they make European banks suffer selling them all those subprime mortgage derivatives.

Yes Carbs.

But this iz also socialismn.

Neither socialismn or capitalismn can survive w/o the 'support' of big gubmint.

Big gubmint calls the shot.

In capitalismn and socialismn big gubmint spends money to tek care of big bidnezz.

The people are left 2 pay the tab.

[oecarb]

Yes Carbs.

But this iz also socialismn.

Neither socialismn or capitalismn can survive w/o the 'support' of big gubmint.

Big gubmint calls the shot.

In capitalismn and socialismn big gubmint spends money to tek care of big bidnezz.

The people are left 2 pay the tab.

Miktay,

This issue is much more complicated than that.

For a start, there are different flavours of capitalism and different flavours of socialism. So there is no clear line between the two - especially so in Europe.

Just as in the USA some might argue that there is a difference between oligarchism and capitalism, so in Europe some argue that there is a difference between communism and socialism. However, many people do not see the difference.

And the media, as you know, finds it much more convenient to emblazen everything in black and white, ignoring all shades of grey.

The essential difference IMHO between communism and Western European Socialism is that communists insist that the only legitimate owners of the means of production are the people/workers - represented by their government.

Western European Socialism, on the other hand, projects itself as a partnership between private capitalism, state capitalism and the people - with the government redistributing wealth through taxes and also providing essential infrastructure.

Greece has an active communist party which forms part of the government and calls itself socialist. Greece also has right wing parties in the governing coalition.

So you have a situation where the govt cannot raise taxes on the rich and where it cannot cut welfare. Which IMHO is one of the reasons why Greece ended up in this mess.

As to whether the Greek people would pay the tab, I do not believe that the status of the poor would be affected. They would be poor anyway.

The rich and the middle class would suffer a bit but many have the option of just moving to a more wealthy EU country and, apparently, the rich have been choosing the UK.

[lexbarker]

Are you a terrorist for owning gold?