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View Full Version : Emperor Valley Zoo continues to be irresponsible



Falcon
03-24-2014, 04:30 PM
The animals comprise a couple - a male and female rare White Bengal Tigers, one orange coloured tiger, one female white lioness and another female normal coloured lioness.
Newsday http://newsday.co.tt/news/0,192293.html

It is interesting to note that "Bester Birds and Animals Zoo Park of Pretoria" does not list African lions/Bengal Tigers as species they exhibit. In fact, this 'zoo' is merely a large pet store/breeding facility.

Now on to the important stuff.

White Tigers: http://bigcatrescue.org/abuse-issues/issues/white-tigers/All White Tigers Are Inbred and Are Not Purebred
http://bigcatrescue-flywheel.netdna-ssl.com/images/tigerphotos/WhiteTigerDeformed0.jpgThe ONLY way to produce a tiger or lion with a white coat is through inbreeding brother to sister or father to daughter; generation after generation after generation. The kind of severe inbreeding that is required to produce the mutation of a white coat also causes a number of other defects in these big cats.

In June 2011 the board of directors for the American Zoological Association (AZA) formalized their 2008 ban on the breeding of white tigers, white lions or king cheetahs by their member zoos. Their report said, “Breeding practices that increase the physical expression of single rare alleles (i.e., rare genetic traits) through intentional inbreeding, for example intentional breeding to achieve rare color-morphs such as white tigers, deer, and alligators, has been clearly linked with various abnormal, debilitating, and, at times, lethal, external and internal conditions and characteristics, which are outlined in this paper (http://bigcatrescue.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/AZAbansBreedingWhiteTigersLions2011from2008.pdf).” This change in policy came more than 12 years after Big Cat Rescue first released Dr. Laughlin’s expose below.

The same gene that causes the white coat causes the optic nerve to be wired to the wrong side of the brain, thus all white tigers are cross eyed, even if their eyes look normal. They also often suffer from club feet, cleft palates, spinal deformities and defective organs.


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What really is a white tiger?http://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/DSC_3922-199x300.jpgWhite tigers are very popular with pseudo sanctuaries, breeders and exhibitors as they tend to bring in more visitors and more money. White tigers are a sub-species of Bengal tigers (http://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/education/species/big-cats/tiger/) and not albino or their own species like many people think. White tigers occur after breeding two Bengal tigers with a recessive gene that controls coat color. It has been said the entire captive white tiger population originated from one single white tiger and has been inbred ever since. In order to retain this recessive gene zoos and breeders must continually breed father to daughter and father to granddaughter and so on. This inbreeding has caused many genetic problems with tigers such as cleft palates, scoliosis of the spine, mental impairments and cross eyes. Many of the cubs that are born either in zoos or by breeders have to be ‘disposed’ of because they are malformed at birth. White Bengal tigers have also been crossed with Siberian tigers to produce a larger specimen which in turn causes even more genetic problems. For years breeders and exhibitors have been using the excuse that white tigers are an endangered species so they need to keep breeding them. This is a false statement. Breeders of white tigers do not contribute to any species survival plan (http://www.aza.org/species-survival-plan-program/); they are breeding for money.
- See more at: http://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/the-truth-about-white-tigers/#sthash.wkySeeSN.dpuf






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Falcon
03-24-2014, 04:39 PM
British Zoos and the White Tigerhttp://peterdickinson.hubpages.com/hub/The-Only-White-Tiger-In-Great-Britain

Zoological Gardens in the British Isles (http://cmhypno.hubpages.com/hub/Invasive-Animal-Species-in-Great-Britain-Alien-Species-That-Should-Not-Be-In-The-UK) are all under the authority of the 'Zoo Licencing Act'. This is amongst the best if not THE best zoo legislation in the world. Any collection open to the public which includes animals which are not normally domesticated in Great Britain orNorthern Ireland (http://teresamcgurk.hubpages.com/hub/Top-Ten-Reasons-to-Visit-Northern-Ireland) falls under its jurisdiction.
Though the act is comprehensive it is not restrictive and a British Zoo which wanted to keep a White Tiger (http://peterdickinson.hubpages.com/hub/White-Tiger-Breeding-is-Not-Conservation) could do so providing it went through the proper channels. It is however extremely unlikely that any zoo which was actually genuinely sincere about conservation would ever consider aquiring a White Tiger. The aquisition and maintenance of White Lions (http://peterdickinson.hubpages.com/hub/White-Lion-Breeding-Is-Not-Conservation) is bad enough pandering as it does to fashion and pure commercialism rather than conservation.

There are good zoos and bad zoos. Good zoos would never entertain the idea of breeding White Tigers.

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Two parks have been accused of unethical breeding practices, as white lions are inbred and suffer from severe health issues

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/jun/11/white-lion-breeding-uk-wildlife-parks
White lions have a rare recessive gene and the only way to guarantee a white cub is to breed two white lions, producing extremely inbred animals that suffer from deformities and high mortality. A scientific study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20826844) found 17 of 19 white lion cubs born in an Italian zoo were stillborn or died within a month of birth. Another was euthanised after six months because it could not bite its food and the sole survivor at 30 months was malformed.
The British and Irish Association of Zoos and Aquariums (http://www.biaza.org.uk/) (BIAZA), of which Paradise Wildlife Park and the Wildlife Heritage Foundation are members, has ruled there is no conservation value in keeping white lions. "Inbreeding practices as necessary to produce white lions impair the ability to develop and maintain sustainable captive populations and to deliver the appropriate animal welfare (http://www.theguardian.com/world/animal-welfare) and conservation educational messages," it said in recently published guidelines (http://www.biaza.org.uk/uploads/legislation/WhiteLions_Version2.pdf). The European Association of Zoos and Aquaria (EAZA) and the American Association of Zoos & Aquariums (AZA) have also both instructed their members not to deliberately breed white lions (http://bigcatrescue.org/today-at-big-cat-rescue-aza-says-no-more-white-tigers-or-white-lions/).

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There is no CONSERVATION VALUE in breeding these animal bought from South Africa. No serious zoo will accept captive bred white lions and tiger.
This is another crooked money-making scheme of the EV Zoo's management.

It is sad that at a time when the EVZoo is experiencing unprecedented funding, that this mismanagement of resources is taking place. Furthermore, that one man's ambition is being allowed to violate the very ethos of the EVZoo in regards to conservation and education.

Falcon
03-24-2014, 04:51 PM
http://www.wildcatsanctuary.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/AZAbansBreedingWhiteTigersLions2011from2008.pdf

important pdf for the immunogenetics
Welfare and Conservation Implications of Intentional Breeding for the Expression of Rare Recessive Alleles

Association of Zoos & Aquariums



Animal Welfare Committee: Taskforce on Animal Breeding Practices


Approved by the AZA Board of Directors – June 2011

kemist
03-24-2014, 07:49 PM
Yep, very irresponsible.


Many of the cubs that are born either in zoos or by breeders have to be ‘disposed’ of because they are malformed at birth.
^ people should be made aware of that ^.


Also must wonder why:

White tigers are very popular with pseudo sanctuaries, breeders and exhibitors as they tend to bring in more visitors and more money.
Obviously they 'bring in' more visitors because more people want to see them, supposedly as opposed to wanting to see 'regular tigers'. Obviously they are exotic, since they are rare.
Are they also more appealing to people because of their colour :hmmmm:

Sirius
03-24-2014, 09:15 PM
I have to admit I was initially very happy to see all these new animals coming in to our zoo. What I have been hearing about these White Tigers is however quite disappointing. A zoo is supposed to be far more than just a display of animals but it sounds like Whiter Tigers have little value other than as a display piece...not to mention a questionable breed to begin with. Sounds like a step in the wrong direction. That's disappointing.

Falcon
03-25-2014, 05:13 AM
More about the corrupt web and unethical trade in endangered animals:

Let’s now go back to the millionaire private animal collector in Vietnam, Mr Than. He sourced his rhinos and tigers to be exported from Mike Bester in South Africa. Bester runs a small zoo in Pretoria ( which has been described by one visitor as "shocking conditions and very unsafe" (http://www.hellopeter.com/bester-birds-aminals-zoo-park/complaints/shocking-conditions-and-very-unsafe-761951) on Hellopeter.com) and he also has an export company “specializing in the international translocation of non-domestic animals and birds”. Bester received some flack for exporting African wild dogs to China some years ago, but he said he had “personally inspected” the facilities at the zoo before allowing them to take their voyage.

Bester is as well connected as Hans Kooy. Perhaps even better, as Bester is both a council member, patron and executive committee member of the African Zoos organization PAAZAB. That organization is supported by many international zoos like the London Zoo, the San Diego Zoo, the North Carolina Zoo, etc etc. Their website (http://www.zoosafrica.com/index.php) states that the “Association upholds modern zoo best practices in provision of the supportive environments for the animals…best practice and ethical standards…trusted centres of animal welfare, conservation, education, research and service”. They also state that “PAAZAB may determine from time to time that the keeping of certain species of wild animals as pets … will be unacceptable.”

Bester is joined on the PAAZAB council by Jimmy Magill (Endofaun Zoo) who shipped two live rhinos to Baoson Tourism and Construction Group in Vietnam and four rhinos to the Changsha Zoo in China. Our sources tell us there are no rhinos at the Changsha Zoo where other animals are kept in deplorable conditions. Where did the rhinos go? Also on the PAAZAB council is Andrew Eriksen (Cango Wildlife Ranch) who sends live tigers to private collectors in the United Arab Emirates like Sheikh Ahmed Nasser al Mula.

So on the one hand these PAAZAB grandees agree to uphold best practices and ethical standards and on the other hand ship animals to very dubious locations where they are more likely to be valued as pets and for their body parts than for any other reason.

It seems the very lucrative wildlife trade virus has infected very many animal dealers in South Africa. What is PAAZAB or for that matter the South African government doing to properly regulate such trade?
- See more at: http://www.lionaid.org/blog/2012/11/south-african-wildlife-traders-and-their-vietnamese-and-chinese-clients-a-network-of-deception.htm#sthash.YH3Qk75b.dpuf

Falcon
03-25-2014, 05:36 AM
Do we have journalists in T&T who care about anything other than Sat and Verna?

Earlier this month my attention was drawn to a press release and the resulting media blitz related to a story trumpeting the "success" of
a group of six American zoos who "rescued orphaned monkeys" under the auspices of the American Association of Zoos and Aquariums
(AZA), Old World Monkey Taxon Advisory Group (TAG). These six zoos –
San Diego Zoo, California;
Wildlife World Zoo, Litchfield Park, AZ;
Lowry Park Zoo, Tampa, Florida;
Houston Zoo, Texas;
San Antonio Zoo, Texas; and
Denver Zoo, Colorado --
each stepped forward to "rescue" the wild-caught monkeys from, as they told it, being sold as food or
destined to live in substandard, solitary conditions as exotic pets as part of the hobbyist trade. As the tale was revealed, these 33
orphaned monkeys, ranging in age from approximately one to five-years-old, were imported to the Republic of South Africa (RSA) after
being found as bushmeat trade orphans in the markets of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC). These monkeys were
portrayed as bushmeat trade refugees lucky to escape their homeland. My initial reaction was that these six complicit zoos
should immediately have their AZA accreditation revoked and a stiff financial punishment imposed. But, this would never happen because
the entire activity was conducted under the banner of the AZA! Isn't this just an exemplification of greedy Western zoos taking
advantage of an opportunity to pillage the natural resources of the DRC?

So I decided to visit the CITES Management Authority here in Kinshasa and ask how this could have happened. The CITES Management
Authority for DRC is dually responsible as the Direction des Ressources Fauniques et Chasse, in the office of the Ministère de
l'Environnement, Conservation de la Nature, Eaux et Forêts (the Environment Ministry). Tackling domestic and/or international live
animal trade is one of the challenges facing conservation bodies in the DRC. Ideally, the CITES Management Authority in DRC is charged
with the responsibility for controlling this trade. But they need support and cooperation.

Over the course of two days I learned that first an Import Permit had to be issued by CITES, Republic of South Africa (RSA) to receive
the monkeys that originally left the DRC. All of the CITES transactions are then registered in the headquarters office in
Geneva, Switzerland.

In Africa, the individual behind this particular incident of animal trade is named Mr. Mike BESTER. He is well known (i.e. notorious)
for trafficking animals out of central Africa and the CITES Authorities in Kinshasa know his name. To conduct his deals he uses
national collaborators to import and export. In RSA he uses a South African man called Mr. ULU-AVARIES who applies for the Importation
permits. The destination in RSA is the Bester Birds and Animal Zoo Park. However, the address used on the Export Permit application
was: 95 President Street, Potchefstroom, North West Province, RSA.

Mr. ULU-AVARIES then provided the CITES Import permit to Mr. BESTER. So, CITES was involved in this from the very start … their
participation enabled this to go forward! In DRC Mr. BESTER uses a Congolese business man named Mr. Martin BYART. According to the
Export Permit, Mr. BYART runs a wildlife export business here in Kinshasa, called BYART BIRDS. There was no address recorded on the
documentation. Coincidentally, on 22 September 2005 the DRC Environment Minister inaugurated a new facility for breeding and
raising wildlife. This new 100 hectares farm is in the township of NSele and is called the "BYART Breeding Farm". Mr. Martin BYART is
the director of the farm.

part 1

Falcon
03-25-2014, 05:37 AM
part 2


With the CITES Import Permits for RSA, Mr. BESTER could then have Mr. BYART apply for CITES Export Permits. This was done without
incident. I asked why the DRC authorities were not alarmed by the large number of monkeys being taken by this one person … that
clearly this activity was for commercial purposes. Since there was already CITES authorization to import to the RSA, the DRC officials
felt that it was indisputable. In fact, they consider that since the species of monkeys concerned are classified in Appendix II of
the CITES Convention, there is no problem on permitting them to be merchandised. Additionally, the exporter is one of the wildlife
trade operators formally recognized by the Environment Ministry. Since there was both a CITES permit issued for export and import and
all transportation conditions were met, no avenue existed to interrupt this live animal transaction.
As far as I was able to discover, there were actually at least three permits issued relative to this exportation ... but it seems likely
that there were more. All three permits were issued in January 2005. The exporter then has six months to make the move.
Following, I have identified the number on the permits I know about, the species authorized for export, and the number of animals of each
species in parenthesis ... exactly as it was written on the forms.

Permit # 1126:
Cercopithecus l'hoesti (1);
Cercopithecus talapoin (4);
Cercopithecus neglectus (8);
Cercocebus aterrimus (5).

Permit #1127 :
Cercopithecus ascanius (11) ;
Cercopithecus nictitans (1) ;
Cercopithecus pogonias (1).


Permit #1128
Colobus angolensis (1) ;

Colobus guereza (1) ;
Cercopithecus wolfi (1).

Please note that Cercopithecus pogonias does not occur in the DRCongo except a very limited area along the northwestern border
with Congo Republic, this is probably a misidentification of the mona species we have here. And Colobus guereza is limited to the
northern region of the country. Note - - there are 34 monkeys listed on these 3 export permits. Imported into the USA were eight black mangabey (Cercocebus /
Lophocebus aterrimis), eight Schmidt's spot-nosed guenon (Cercopithecus ascanius schmidti), five DeBrazza's guenon
(Cercopithecus neglectus), six Allen's swamp monkey (Allenopithecus nigroviridis ) and six Wolf's guenon (Cercopithecus wolfi). San
Diego received four Allen's swamp monkeys and one Debrazza's guenon. A second Debrazza's guenon flunked a tuberculosis test and remained
in South Africa until it no longer tests positive. You will notice that the species and numbers re-imported from RSA to the USA do not
match the export species and numbers leaving the DRC. This indicates that there was probably additional permits issued but
these were not revealed to me; there were additional monkeys involved. Thus an unknown number of monkeys must have died in the
process between January 2005 and March 2006.

Once in the RSA, Mr. BESTER than had to find a buyer. The Johannesburg Zoo refused these monkeys questioning their origin and
being unwilling to pay BESTER's high prices. So, he had to continue his quest. It took some time, but not too long for the American
zoos to take the bait. The AZA liaison for this transaction commented that she felt the trader was credible ... "just a
businessman who had bought the monkeys in Congo in hopes of making a profit by selling them in more prosperous South Africa, where the
sale of exotic pets is legal."

Falcon
03-25-2014, 05:37 AM
part 3

Now we get the "good guy" PR spin as the AZA presents a story that might be more palatable for the general public than the truth. I
cringed when I read that an executive of the AZA was quoted as saying, "Orphaned baby primates are often taken off of the dead
adults and sold in the markets of these countries." I wonder if he would agree to rephrase his comment to admit that these primates
were then "sold in the international market of the US zoos. Another party to this live animal trade stated that she does not put a price
tag on her animals. But we know that the six zoos paid $400,000 to keep the monkeys under quarantine in South Africa, have them tended
by veterinarians and then flown to the United States. The San Diego Zoo, the most heavily visited zoo in the nation, paid $80,000 of the
total.

This unacceptable commercialization of primates on the part of the AZA and the six American zoos only serves to perpetuate and heighten the trade in live animals.
Yes, I understand that there was a moment when their conscience made them pause to recognize the ramifications of their actions. But they glossed over that
responsibility by excusing their actions with an unfulfilled promise to send out a"cautionary word" in animal circles. They legitimized
this live animal commercial trade by proposing to post signs at the incriminate zoos that will tell the monkeys' story. But what story
… the truth or the PR fabrication.

This is an abomination! There is nothing about this transaction that relates to rescue or saving species'. This was pure and simple
commerce at the expense of wild primate populations! The AZA is grossly culpable ... the blood of all the monkeys murdered in the
process of the capture of these imported monkeys and all those who will/have died as a result of this activity flaming the commercial
enterprise in live animal trade. This undoes so much of what conservation groups and individuals, including park personnel,
sacrifice and even risk their lives to affect. I'm outraged!

Dr. Jo Thompson, Director
Lukuru Wildlife Research Project
Democratic Republic of Congo
Avenue de la Montagne, No. 1
MaCampagne Commune
Kinshasa
Tel: (+243) 081 075 6403

Falcon
03-25-2014, 06:39 AM
by the way, I have written confirmation of authenticity of that email, and permission from Jo Thompson to share it.

kemist
03-25-2014, 03:50 PM
From the report,

The tigers are between the ages of 15 to 21 months old and weight between 100 to 150 kilos, while the lionesses are five and eight months old and weigh about 50 kilos each. The tigers were acquired at a cost of US$25,000 each.


The acquisition of two White Bengal tigers is a bonus for the zoo Lutchmedial said. He told Sunday Newsday the Zoo had paid for two orange Bengal Tigers as they could not afford two White tigers. However, Bester provided a male White tiger at no additional cost.

With regards to cost, all that i've read so far makes me doubt the above.
White tigers are more expensive than 'normal' tigers. Isn't it more likely that they paid USD$50k for the two white tigers and got the orange one for free?
I wouldn't be surprised if that orange one was one of the 'undesired' offspring from trying to breed white tigers - if that's the case then i'm glad we could take care of it and more importantly, save its life.
Even if the report above is true, they are still participating in the trade with $25k and contributing to the demand for white tigers.

But what's done is done. The question is, what's next?
Do they intend to acquire more white tigers?
Do they intend to breed their own white tigers?
Even if the local press makes people more aware of this, I'm not quite sure whether it would be a major concern of the T&T public. That being said, the press should not turn their backs on their responsibility.

Acid
10-08-2014, 12:01 PM
Simba the lion died :(

C News Live (https://www.facebook.com/cnewslive?hc_location=timeline)about an hour ago (https://www.facebook.com/cnewslive/photos/a.10150137684225610.332278.377693645609/10152768920340610/?type=1)


Simba, the African Lion at the Emperor Valley Zoo in Port of Spain has died. According to officials at the facility Simba was 20 years old and had exceeded the 15 year average lifespan for lions. We will bring you more details soon...


https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/p280x280/10342995_10152768920340610_56707360868539820_n.png ?oh=772d676b9766ccb943ffcedd8994d975&oe=54B8CD7A&__gda__=1422059676_fcfd21a99bdd9b8756978ad34bc44fd 9

(https://www.facebook.com/cnewslive/photos/a.10150137684225610.332278.377693645609/10152768920340610/?type=1&relevant_count=1)

Starjack
10-08-2014, 02:45 PM
RIP Simba, do they have more male lions at the zoo?

SJ

TriniBitumenSupplier
10-08-2014, 03:32 PM
He free at last.

Maybe he can roam the plains of Africa again, instead of being locked up in Port of Spain smelling turquoise paint and traffic smog and eating tasteless defrosted chicken.

Redman
10-10-2014, 07:56 AM
he live 20 years
how long you think he would have lived in the wild?
He was bred and born in captivity

Later

TriniBitumenSupplier
10-10-2014, 09:53 AM
Would you rather live 20 years as a slave or 10 as a free man?

Sirius
10-10-2014, 11:34 AM
It's hard to look at it from just that POV bitumen. There's another side to the story. Simba was bred in captivity, so he really didn't have the means to survive in the wild to begin with. Not part of a pride, no real hunting skills...he would have likely died in the wild fairly quickly. It's just not a lifestyle he knew. Like many of us alive today, he lived in a concrete jungle...a pampered concrete jungle with regular meals and a maintained shelter.

Our zoo certainly lacks proper habitats for these sorts of creatures and that is sad...but without knowing the state of Simba's mental and physical development it's hard to simply assume he had some sort of horrible life.

TriniBitumenSupplier
10-10-2014, 12:40 PM
Simba was bred in captivity, so he really didn't have the means to survive in the wild to begin with. Not part of a pride, no real hunting skills...he would have likely died in the wild fairly quickly. It's just not a lifestyle he knew. Like many of us alive today, he lived in a concrete jungle...a pampered concrete jungle with regular meals and a maintained shelter.

You realise that could be said about human slaves in times past too!

Sirius
10-10-2014, 12:53 PM
Simba was bred in captivity, so he really didn't have the means to survive in the wild to begin with. Not part of a pride, no real hunting skills...he would have likely died in the wild fairly quickly. It's just not a lifestyle he knew. Like many of us alive today, he lived in a concrete jungle...a pampered concrete jungle with regular meals and a maintained shelter.

You realise that could be said about human slaves in times past too!

How can it? Human slaves were not generally taken care of. They were put to work by force and often made to live in appalling conditions. The comparison is better made with circus animals, not zoo animals. Zoo animals do not have the wild expanses to call home but they are for the most part very well looked after. Circus animals on the other hand are forced to perform and often taught through torturous means...that's more like a slave life.

But I'm just showing there are two sides of the argument to consider. Hence the second paragraph my post contained: Our zoo certainly lacks proper habitats for these sorts of creatures and that is sad...but without knowing the state of Simba's mental and physical development it's hard to simply assume he had some sort of horrible life.

Redman
10-10-2014, 06:48 PM
Would you rather live 20 years as a slave or 10 as a free man?

You should have asked him when he was alive.

The animal was cared for as best as our facilities could.
He lived beyond the expectancy in the wild.
He looked pretty healthy and comfortable when I saw him a month or 2 ago

It couldnt have been that bad a life

Later

Falcon
10-12-2014, 08:13 AM
So are the trafficked people today

snowbird
10-14-2014, 05:47 AM
Sirius.. while I agree with some of your points... I think more of an effort could be made to house these 'wild animals' in a habitat as close as possible to what they were meant to live in.

http://www.lionsafari.com/conservation/breeding/cheetah/


This facility ^^^ is just 45 minutes away from my home... while the lions and other wild animals get 'taken care of' (food and medical attention)... they still try to replicate as best the could, the environment they should exist in. They also have one of the most successful 'in captivity' breeding programs in the world.

Sirius
10-14-2014, 06:39 AM
Sirius.. while I agree with some of your points... I think more of an effort could be made to house these 'wild animals' in a habitat as close as possible to what they were meant to live in.

http://www.lionsafari.com/conservation/breeding/cheetah/


This facility ^^^ is just 45 minutes away from my home... while the lions and other wild animals get 'taken care of' (food and medical attention)... they still try to replicate as best the could, the environment they should exist in. They also have one of the most successful 'in captivity' breeding programs in the world.

But I've been agreeing with that...in fact this makes the third time I'm stating these words: Our zoo certainly lacks proper habitats for these sorts of creatures and that is sad.

I'm only disagreeing with the assumption that Simba is somehow now free from some sort of horrible existence...outwardly that doesn't seem to be the case and without knowing his mental and physical development it's hard to assume in either direction.

snowbird
10-14-2014, 10:44 AM
But I've been agreeing with that...in fact this makes the third time I'm stating these words: Our zoo certainly lacks proper habitats for these sorts of creatures and that is sad.

I'm only disagreeing with the assumption that Simba is somehow now free from some sort of horrible existence...outwardly that doesn't seem to be the case and without knowing his mental and physical development it's hard to assume in either direction.

I guess the point others may be trying to make is ... while Simba may have been contented at the Emperor Valley Zoo... Simba really wasn't living the life a 'lion' was meant to live.... it is like putting a fish in a fish bowl or an aquarium and saying...."But look how happy he is"... even if his life 'out there' may have been short lived... he was meant to be 'out there'. not in a small cage.

Falcon
10-14-2014, 10:53 AM
The lion enclosure at EVZ has been a sterile and non stimulating cell from the beginning. An animal reaches the boundary with three bounds in any direction.

Acid
10-14-2014, 11:12 AM
Well then the question arises "What is the purpose of a zoo?" if it makes and animal unreal (for want of a better word).

From the discussion here it seems as if a zoo is equivalent animal Nazi concentration camp (for want of a better phrase).

snowbird
10-14-2014, 11:22 AM
Well then the question arises "What is the purpose of a zoo?" if it makes and animal unreal (for want of a better word).

From the discussion here it seems as if a zoo is equivalent animal Nazi concentration camp (for want of a better phrase).

I guess technically it is, and it is... so I guess before any country or region decides to erect a zoo they should be forced to prove that they can keep the animals in ... as near as possible the habitat needed for that animal... so yes, in most cases it would require miles and miles of land, a much bigger operation than most zoos now operate.

Redman
10-14-2014, 12:36 PM
While the goal should be to have a zoo built to spec the truth is that it was built in the 50s?

No government has seen it fit and I think the zstt does not have the ability to move the zoo to a more appropriate expansive location.

On an island of 1.5M people do we have a the scale necessary to build,operate and maintain a facility like that?

The zoo represents the sole opportunity for many to see these animals live-and -given the state of education in TnT,probably one of a very few chances for them to be exposed to the practical applications of the science subjects being taught.

Should better be done? Sure.

CAN better be done?? -maybe not as glibly as some of the posts here.


Later

Starjack
10-14-2014, 01:15 PM
Simba was bred in captivity, so he really didn't have the means to survive in the wild to begin with. Not part of a pride, no real hunting skills...he would have likely died in the wild fairly quickly. It's just not a lifestyle he knew. Like many of us alive today, he lived in a concrete jungle...a pampered concrete jungle with regular meals and a maintained shelter.

You realise that could be said about human slaves in times past too!

So you're saying a zoo is made to put animals in jail or be treated like slaves instead of being a place for people to learn and study them up close? Believe me i wouldn't like to see animals like Simba in captive but that's not the real purpose of a zoo. And stop using human slaves in this concept, that's just backing your wild assumptions or making conspiracy theories about a zoo.

SJ

Sirius
10-14-2014, 05:41 PM
A zoo might have some sort of origin as an animal display but that's not what a modern zoo is supposed to be. A zoo is supposed to be a place of learning. Apart from educating the population and giving them something to do on weekends, a zoo is supposed to play a role in research, rehabilitation, and even reversing the fate of endangered species.

I am certain that a T&T zoo can be that kind of place if we truly wanted it to be so. Now I don't buy the argument that our zoo animals are somehow mistreated; from what I have seen they seem to be well loved and cared for by the staff. I don't buy the argument that we MUST have a safari style zoo. I do however believe they are missing out on a more natural habitat. We need larger enclosures, and within those larger enclosures a more natural habitat created. It doesn't need to be a safari but it needs to better simulate the wild and provide sufficient space to run around. The zoo needs to be expanded and perhaps a second facility opened. There is plenty of land available if we are willing to look beyond urban corridors. Now the zoo has been undertaking upgrade and expansion work but it needs more than it is getting.

A proper, full scale zoo just like a proper, full scale science center and a proper, full scale museum are required to further the economy and quality of life by facilitating research, education, awareness and yes, even entertainment. The question is, do we see these things as important?

Redman
10-14-2014, 06:42 PM
Nope
nein
nyet
nah

na ga ha

Later

Falcon
10-15-2014, 12:19 AM
The zoo represents the sole opportunity for many to see these animals live-and -given the state of education in TnT,probably one of a very few chances for them to be exposed to the practical applications of the science subjects being taught.



Later
Then a museum of taxidermy would suffice!!

We are saying there IS a better way
Instead of buying white tigers and lions, giraffe and manicou farms, invest in enviro entail enrichment. Put the damn lions where the quench are! Just raise the fence though lol

TriniBitumenSupplier
10-24-2014, 11:39 AM
The bird sanctuary, turtle watching and swamp tours are fine examples of how Trinidad has the green space to show off creatures in the natural habitat.

No need to keep building concrete prisons for animals meant to be free to roam the vast plains of Africa.

What is more moving and educational for a child, seeing a crocodile sunning itself in the Caroni Swamp, or looking at a miserable specimen sitting in an artificial pool with no stimuli.

At least the swamp Croc can choose to move off. Who can forget that memorable moment in years past when someone drop a concrete block on the crocodile, "dey wanted to see it move nah" and it buss the poor creature head.

Starjack
10-24-2014, 09:06 PM
Just remember zoos have foreign animals as well, animals that are not seen in one's country regardless of what wild life that exist. Animals would still be animals regardless if they're in natural habitat or behind concrete walls. If people want to see animals in the wild then no problem, if they want to see them in a zoo still no problem you just seeing them up close and either way children would still be educated.


SJ

snowbird
10-27-2014, 02:55 PM
.... no problem you just seeing them up close and either way children would still be educated.


SJ

First I will share that my children (and now grand children)
.... have seen a buffalo being born right out in the open
... have seen how Cheetahs will 'pace' as they stalk prey they can't get to
.... have seen lion and lionesses mating
.... have seen how baby baboons will cling to their mother as she moves about
... have seen how Rhinos 'pee' backwards
... have seen a 'baby elephant' minutes after it was born
.... a black bear just roaming around.

To me this is all 'education'.... what are the chances of children getting that type of an education by visiting animals in a zoo.... These things can only be seen when you view animals in an environment that is as close as possible to their own habitat.

From what I have seen of 'traditional zoos'...the animals just seem to lay there not doing very much.

TriniBitumenSupplier
10-27-2014, 04:58 PM
Exactly. Trinidadian children don't get a chance to see Japanese people either, maybe we should get some and lock them up too?

The quality of knowledge to be gained from animals in a zoo, well you could get as good from the Discovery Channel. If you want more, go see it in real.

Starjack
10-27-2014, 10:42 PM
First I will share that my children (and now grand children)
.... have seen a buffalo being born right out in the open
... have seen how Cheetahs will 'pace' as they stalk prey they can't get to
.... have seen lion and lionesses mating
.... have seen how baby baboons will cling to their mother as she moves about
... have seen how Rhinos 'pee' backwards
... have seen a 'baby elephant' minutes after it was born
.... a black bear just roaming around.

To me this is all 'education'.... what are the chances of children getting that type of an education by visiting animals in a zoo.... These things can only be seen when you view animals in an environment that is as close as possible to their own habitat.

From what I have seen of 'traditional zoos'...the animals just seem to lay there not doing very much.

Regardless what children would see or not see animals will still be animals whether in their natural habitat or in a zoo, we're talking about reality here. You making sound like that these expressions:


.... have seen a buffalo being born right out in the open
... have seen how Cheetahs will 'pace' as they stalk prey they can't get to
.... have seen lion and lionesses mating
.... have seen how baby baboons will cling to their mother as she moves about
... have seen how Rhinos 'pee' backwards
... have seen a 'baby elephant' minutes after it was born
.... a black bear just roaming around.

were only happen in the wild and not a zoo. I'm certain these things happen in a zoo as well, even if you are not there to witness it. Why should we expect animals to behave differently in a zoo than in the wild if is the same animals your dealing with in terms of their nature? So lion in a wild can not be a lion in the zoo or a hippo in the wild can be a hippo in the zoo? Stick with things that we know than what we expect.


SJ