Expanding Tertiary Education in T&T

[Sirius]

Let's give this its own thread. The most recent discussion was on the usefulness of UTT but was getting to the point of hijacking a politics discussion so here we are.

I believe it needs to be revamped, get all the corruption issues out of the way and set it on track.

I do not feel that UWI as it is has the capacity to properly serve the needs of the entire country. Capacity aside, it is a regional university with one campus located in T&T - it is not a T&T university and it is not centrally accessible to everyone. Set up UTT's main campus somewhere in the southland and put a satellite campus in Tobago. Use it as part of diversification - train people in areas we would like to develop. Include a research center where we can develop contributions to the world instead of always being the followers. Get the private sector involved. Don't forget the influence of competition either - it will force UWI and other institutions to up the ante to stay relevant.

[KingofKings]

nice one Sirius...

KingofKings...

[kemist]

Let's give this its own thread. The most recent discussion was on the usefulness of UTT but was getting to the point of hijacking a politics discussion so here we are.

I believe it needs to be revamped, get all the corruption issues out of the way and set it on track.

I do not feel that UWI as it is has the capacity to properly serve the needs of the entire country. Capacity aside, it is a regional university with one campus located in T&T - it is not a T&T university and it is not centrally accessible to everyone. Set up UTT's main campus somewhere in the southland and put a satellite campus in Tobago. Use it as part of diversification - train people in areas we would like to develop. Include a research center where we can develop contributions to the world instead of always being the followers. Get the private sector involved.

From what I understood, that was the whole idea behind it, and what to me, justified its usefulness.


Don't forget the influence of competition either - it will force UWI and other institutions to up the ante to stay relevant.

That had begun since UTT was just an idea, but thus far proving to be a double edged sword. UWI certainly lowered its enrollments standards and taking on more students than they can handle. In the research arena, competition may be a good thing, but since funds are limited (and yes, both universities depend heavily on GOTT for funding), coorporation/collaboration would seem to be more productive than competition.

Now one aspect of the 'competition' i don't agree with is when they start to offer the same exact degree programs as UWI. For instance, I dont see the need for another Natural Sciences faculty in Trinidad (even tho i would personally very much welcome it for my own selfish reasons :D).


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[Sirius]

UWI certainly lowered its enrollments standards and taking on more students than they can handle.
That phenomenon is not restricted to UWI and I would put that effect down to GATE more than anything else.


Now one aspect of the 'competition' i don't agree with is when they start to offer the same exact degree programs as UWI. For instance, I dont see the need for another Natural Sciences faculty in Trinidad
Good point. Although - there are many schools offering programmes in business and IT for instance and the competition is healthy for that. I suppose whether both institutions should offer the same programmes or not would depend on the demand for those programmes to begin with.


On another but related note:

I remember some time back learning about some biomedical engineering at UTT. Looking at their site now it seems they have pursued it beyond the idea phase. This is one way that the universities can work toward similar goals from different angles. UWI has the med school and I would certainly hope UTT does not try to open one as well. However, for UTT to train biomedical engineers can be worthwhile.

See where I'm going with this?

[kemist]

That phenomenon is not restricted to UWI and I would put that effect down to GATE more than anything else.



While GATE certainly allows more people the means to take on tertiary studies, at the end of the day, the institutions are the ones who have to accept them. So while someone who barely passes their CAPE exams would still have access to GATE, it doesn't mean that they should qualify for tertiary level enrollment. Many of those are still not ready to take on tertiary level studies since they still don't understand what they did at the CAPE level. IMO its much more beneficial for them to repeat CAPE or go in a different direction. The majority of them do not make it past year 1 at the tertiary level, and the few that do, struggles throughout their program.

[sylvestter]

Capacity aside, it is a regional university with one campus located in T&T - it is not a T&T university and it is not centrally accessible to everyone. why do you say this, sirius?

[Sirius]

While GATE certainly allows more people the means to take on tertiary studies, at the end of the day, the institutions are the ones who have to accept them. So while someone who barely passes their CAPE exams would still have access to GATE, it doesn't mean that they should qualify for tertiary level enrollment. Many of those are still not ready to take on tertiary level studies since they still don't understand what they did at the CAPE level. IMO its much more beneficial for them to repeat CAPE or go in a different direction. The majority of them do not make it past year 1 at the tertiary level, and the few that do, struggles throughout their program.
It's a domino effect. With GATE the institutions know they sit on a cash cow so they lower their standards to ensure high enrollment from the high number of applicants.


why do you say this, sirius?
I was speaking more geographically than anything else - students from the south of the country must either trek that distance every day or seek accommodation somewhere in or around St. Augustine. As per it not being a T&T university...well, it's not. It's a regional university with its head campus located in Mona, Jamaica. Even though our campus would certainly have some say to ensure its programmes are suited to T&T, UWI's focus is on the region as a whole...but everyone knows that T&T is very different from most of the West Indies. We can benefit from having a 100% T&T university and in terms of geographic location I just don't see the sense in setting it up so close to UWI.

[kemist]

In a place as small as Trinidad, i wouldn't normally take location of a tertiary institution to be a major issue. But since people may have to spend hours in traffic getting there, then I would say, ok UTT campuses should be located in south, somewhere close to the industrial estates. After all, the initial justification of UTT was that it would be producing graduates with technical/special skills that our industries demand.


It's a domino effect. With GATE the institutions know they sit on a cash cow so they lower their standards to ensure high enrollment from the high number of applicants.

yep i agree with that statement..it is the harsh reality of things. I just felt that tertiary institutions should operate with a bit more integrity...their responsibility to society is to produce the next generation of intellectuals and skilled labour........ however they are businesses as well.

The GOTT has announced that it is going to expand GATE. :

http://guardian.co.tt/business/business/2010/08/20/govt-expand-gate

now since half of first year students drop out or don't qualify for year 2, and since these are hundreds of students every year, i would say the GOTT should put restrictions on GATE -

Tertiary education cannot be expanded easily without first fixing the primary and secondary high school systems.

To me, someone who gets a grade 5 in CAPE, is not ready to take on tertiary studies.

Even though the Cambridge A-level syllabus has been 'dumbed down', we still cannot equate a grade 5 in CAPE to a grade E in Cambridge.

With the present primary and secondary high school system, I would say make GATE available to those with grade 1,2 or 3 in CAPE and let the 4's and 5's either repeat for better grades or seek alternative options. This way, the GOTT is effectively keeping check of the enrollment stds of tertiary institutions.

[Solachica]

Half of year 1's drop out or fail out? Where kem?

[Sirius]

Remember the idea of A'Levels is not a worldwide standard. Many schools even here in T&T take students with O'Level qualifications; just it takes 4 years to get a Bachelor's degree instead of 3 and they can often pick up a Higher Diploma or Associate's Degree along the way. It's not necessarily a bad approach, in fact I would recommend anyone seeking to pursue a field such as Business, IT, perhaps Journalism, etc. to consider taking that route. However, it also means that an even younger, more immature crowd is coming out of secondary school and entering tertiary institutions.

You are right that we need to buck up the primary and secondary system. Usual shortfalls like math and English aside, critical thinking and career guidance are also sorely lacking. Students are often in degree level classes because it's free or their parents told them to go but not because they want to pursue the field. They usually can only do math well enough to have passed their exams, have a lot of trouble writing formal English and while they will be able to regurgitate what is taught they have a serious problem when it comes to applying that knowledge to a given problem.

[Solachica]

How many people at 16-18 actually knew wht they wanted as career. Most times they don't and are influenced by peers and family.
It have people who after university still don't know.

[kemist]

Half of year 1's drop out or fail out? Where kem?

UWI and i was told of similar cases in UTT.
Year 1 classes are huge, at the end, half of them fail. Most simply drop out or repeat yr 1.

[Sirius]

At the same time Sola, many do. It's something that varies person to person. Many people just don't want to do A'Levels because they see it as a waste of time for what they want to do. I value my A'Levels experience for the extra bit of maturity but academically speaking it did nothing but keep me back from my career goals.

That said, once you enter A'Levels you've already locked yourself in a fair bit anyway because of the sheer level of specialization that you are forced to choose. Our entire school system is geared at choosing your career path to enter form 4, then locking down further for form 6, and by the time you enter University you have hell changing career options even if you wanted. To change career paths after A'Levels you have to backtrack to your O'Level passes and start all over...on the other hand, if you're seeking a Business or IT based career path then taking A'Levels just means taking 5 years (2yrs A's and 3yrs Uni) as opposed to 4 years to get your degree.

The only way to fix that problem is to overhaul our entire system to produce a more rounded student rather than specialized - a little closer to the North American system in that regard. However, in that system you STILL have students leaving school at 16 and 17 years old. We can't just jam people into school for longer periods so I say we need to institute better career guidance in our schools so even when leaving at 16 and 17, students still have an idea of what they want to do in life.

[Sirius]

UWI and i was told of similar cases in UTT.
Year 1 classes are huge, at the end, half of them fail. Most simply drop out or repeat yr 1.
This is true at other institutions as well. It comes back to that students are taught during primary and secondary schooling to absorb what is taught and spit it back out, while at tertiary level they are asked to learn something and then apply it to a given situation. I see far too many students who simply cannot apply concept A to situation X if they were taught it using situation Y.

[Solachica]

I didn't realise so many people fail out. I didn't see tht.

Wht I did see happening is how those young people act when they get to uwi. They skip classes, they rather lime and sleep around than go to class. They would make friend with someone who goes to class and get notes or many lectures are online.

I have a cousin right now in grade 11 and he has no idea wht he wants to do in college. His school system is same as here. He got bottled in to IT stream in grade 9 just like wht happens in form 4. They also did some aptitude test and they send people towards tht path also.

[Solachica]

We have to many professional students out there right now.

Also, overqualified with no experience.

[aprillove20]

Good resource of information and I agree that looking at their site now it seems they have pursued it beyond the idea phase.