what's a good salary

[bunta]

that will allow one to live a comfortable as opposed to luxurious life here in TnT?

edit: in TT$

[Solachica]

One as in one person? :?

[bunta]

ok, say one couple

[Solachica]

I would say between 2 of your options.
Between $7500-$13000

But thts just me. I know people with kids who do it with less.

[Scorpio]

I know people with kids who do it with less.

that is how they got kids in the first place, they did it with less (protection) :D

[Solachica]

I know people with kids who do it with less.

that is how they got kids in the first place, they did it with less (protection) :D
You ent easy nuh. I walk into tht one. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/grinser/grinning-smiley-028.gif

[Scorpio]

^^ you surely did :D

[sheppy]

allyuh does shop in chinee grocery or what...yuh need to make atleast 50,000+ to live in a <3M house wit 2 cars and have cable and yuh still cyah drive no range rover sport...or have no pool in d backyard...

and if yuh have chirren goin international school ...worse yet...

[Solachica]

He said comfortable...but then comfortable cud be subjective ent?http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/fragend/confused-smiley-014.gif

[Scorpio]

Sheppy, I really thought the figues was in US... :D

[Solachica]

:roll: :roll:
I in Trini I ent thought it was in UShttp://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/cool/cool-smiley-031.gif

[sheppy]

Ok ... i see the majority of people pick 10k-13k
That is approx 8-9k after tax rite ?
Car payment plus insurance and quarterly maintenence contract- 2k (for a 140-150k car) corolla an ting
-or-
a 3 series beemer will run you about 5k a month

Rent (a 2 bedroom furnished apartment in d west) 5k(or as much as 10-12k (2k US)depending on the location)
-or-
Mortgage for 3 bedroom townhouse 10k-14k (worth bout 2Mil buh i dare yuh to find a townhouse fuh less dan 3 in d west)

Life insurance/ annuity/ health insurance etc.. 500
If you serious bout dees tings is more like 1.5k

Food for one person 1.5k per month (and dat mean sunshine snacks cereal..not post)
If yuh have expensive taste and wanna eat omaha steak fuh dinner 3-4k

Phone/Cable/Water/Power/Maintenence etc -2k(an das basic cable..and no a/c)

Den yuh have consumables toilet paper, car wash, soap, etc 1k (an das generic toilet paper...no charmain eh wipin dat bamsee)

Entertainment (2 movie a month and 3 dinners at TGI or equivalent) 1k(but if u does drink more like 3k)

so we have a total of the bare necessities of about 13.5k for a 2 bedroom in a semi ok neighbourhood, drivin a corolla, with dinner in ruby's every weekend and 2 movies.
Dat eh take into account buying anyting fuh yuh apartment, or savings, and yuh livin alone..if u is a fella yuh not dating no one...or have no chile or anyting...or God forbid a mortgage

yuh tink it easy out dey? 13k good salary?? :lol: BWHAHAHAHA *belly laughter*

[SSDD]

7500-10000 and 10000-13000

sheppy u went with a rather extravangant lifestyle there. but then everyone's level of comfort is vastly different

[sheppy]

well i wud say it is luxurious...not extravagant at all
Extravagant ....well take a drive down st. clair it have houses on a whole blocks wit range rover and S500 Benz in d driveway....

[bunta]

Ok ... i see the majority of people pick 10k-13k
That is approx 8-9k after tax rite ?
13,000 after tax is 11,000


Car payment plus insurance and quarterly maintenence contract- 2k (for a 140-150k car) corolla an ting
-or-
a 3 series beemer will run you about 5k a month
about $1200 a month for a comfortable roll on roll off

Rent (a 2 bedroom furnished apartment in d west) 5k(or as much as 10-12k (2k US)depending on the location)
-or-
Mortgage for 3 bedroom townhouse 10k-14k (worth bout 2Mil buh i dare yuh to find a townhouse fuh less dan 3 in d west)
about $2000 a month on the E-W corridor

Life insurance/ annuity/ health insurance etc.. 500
If you serious bout dees tings is more like 1.5k
$1,500

Food for one person 1.5k per month (and dat mean sunshine snacks cereal..not post)
If yuh have expensive taste and wanna eat omaha steak fuh dinner 3-4k

grocery/market bill- $1200 monthly

Phone/Cable/Water/Power/Maintenence etc -2k(an das basic cable..and no a/c)
$900 max

Den yuh have consumables toilet paper, car wash, soap, etc 1k (an das generic toilet paper...no charmain eh wipin dat bamsee)
Most of those included in grocery bill
car wash-FREE

Entertainment (2 movie a month and 3 dinners at TGI or equivalent) 1k(but if u does drink more like 3k)
2 movies at Globe, 4 dinners, not at TGI- $400

so we have a total of the bare necessities of about 13.5k for a 2 bedroom in a semi ok neighbourhood, drivin a corolla, with dinner in ruby's every weekend and 2 movies.
Dat eh take into account buying anyting fuh yuh apartment, or savings, and yuh livin alone..if u is a fella yuh not dating no one...or have no chile or anyting...or God forbid a mortgage

bare neccessities: 7200


yuh tink it easy out dey? 13k good salary?? :lol: BWHAHAHAHA *belly laughter*
sounds comfortable

[BW]

Meh, picked 25k+ without reading the first post :oops:
My bad =\

bunta's assessment sounds about right to me.

[Riptide]

To live a comfortable life I would have to go with the $15000-20000 bracket...

My current salary is about $8000 after taxes and with all my bills and expenses it just isn't enough. After catering for my monthly budget I'm left with only a couple hundreds in savings, and that's just not comfortable with me at all. I need to feel financially secure for the future, for my future plans and for any unforeseen events - good or bad...!

To live comfortably, on a monthly basis, I would like to have a minimum of $5000 in savings after taxes and expenses, together with $5000 cash-in-hand...that means I would have to get a salary increase of over $10000, which would put me in the $15000-20000 bracket...!

But getting into that bracket is HARD...! I've been searching for a several months now for a company willing to pay that much money.

[peanut]

A good salary is what I work for, but wait I in the U.S never mind.

[vaio]

a good salary for a couple for the month shld be no less than $20,000

[Solachica]

:D
I was thinking in terms of a single salary. In combined it wud be way over what I suggested initially. :?

[SSDD]

bunta's assessment sounds a little more sane. like i said sheppy it's about what you consider to be comfortable and well your expenses must be considered as well.

[IN-A-QUANDRY]

Rents these days are $2500 - $3000. Groceries $2000 Entertainment and Eat Out $1 200 (Ruby Tuesdays with girlfriend or wife every friday) Utility Bills $600 Cable $300 Pennywise $300-$500 Maintenance (Car/Home) $300 - $1200 Shoes and Attire $50.00 - $1200 (for a suit) Savings $1000 Credit Card $200.00 Drug Store (what u didn't get in Pennywise) $100.00 (and if u are elderly even worse) Haircut (50.00)/

High end after tax income =$11 350.00

Low end income $7 300 (Trinidad middle class)

[sheppy]

Bunta...2 movies at globe and 4 dinners not TGI 400? das comfortable?

anyway.. i would say our main difference was the rental or mtg costs...so it depends on where you living...
even with your budget of bare necessities at 7,200.00 that is a lean life...comfortable..but no frills.
and that leaves you a little over 3k a month in savings...should no emergencies arise.
I think comfortable should be closer to 10k after tax, plus considerable saving ability..

fact remains...on a salary of say 15-20k you can support yourself minimally enjoy ocassional pleasures...I would call this the low end of middle class..

[vaio]

wait...ppl still go :? to globe...i thought they close down...

[Scorpio]

^^ no they still open, but when they see you coming they does close all de doors and pretend they close down. :lol:

[vaio]

you try to go nah??? and they brace yuh.... :roll:

the globe in Chaguanas closed down and pretty soon the other(s) will follow...movie town and caribbean cinemas puttin them outta business.....

[Scorpio]

I am unbraceable :D

[vaio]

^^yeahhhhh.....

a good salary shld alllow you to save at least 25% of your salary, have a decent social life (movie town, Ruby's, TGIF at least once per week), 25% towards bills and the rest for misc expenses....

[Scorpio]

YOu realise it is possible to have a decent social life without movie towne, Ruby's and TGIF, right ?

[vaio]

:o :o ....no..... :shock: :shock:

[IN-A-QUANDRY]

In a church I was going to, my take home in june was $2900 I was asked to pay $650 tithes and another $350.00 to cover church expenses. He was planning for us to put another $500.00 to get into a business!! If the plan went through, I would have had only $1400 for personals!

[Solachica]

YOu realise it is possible to have a decent social life without movie towne, Ruby's and TGIF, right ?
I never went Movie Towne. never went Rubys and went TGIF becos someone was paying and another time was a Forum lime :roll:

[Solachica]

Looking at this allyuh is really high end spenders oui. I doh have cable and doh go rubys and thing. :?

[Scorpio]

another time was a Forum lime :roll:

wait, what is a forum lime ?

Doh tell meh allyuh on de forum actually meet up at TGIF to spam each other's conversations ? :shock:

[Solachica]

another time was a Forum lime :roll:

wait, what is a forum lime ?

Doh tell meh allyuh on de forum actually meet up at TGIF to spam each other's conversations ? :shock:
Tht was yrs ago. Maybe 4-5 yrs ago. It was with some of the old forum people when it was the Guardian Forum.
We didn't spam each other. :roll:

[sylvestter]

Ok ... i see the majority of people pick 10k-13k
That is approx 8-9k after tax rite ?
Car payment plus insurance and quarterly maintenence contract- 2k (for a 140-150k car) corolla an ting
-or-
a 3 series beemer will run you about 5k a month

Rent (a 2 bedroom furnished apartment in d west) 5k(or as much as 10-12k (2k US)depending on the location)
-or-
Mortgage for 3 bedroom townhouse 10k-14k (worth bout 2Mil buh i dare yuh to find a townhouse fuh less dan 3 in d west)

Life insurance/ annuity/ health insurance etc.. 500
If you serious bout dees tings is more like 1.5k

Food for one person 1.5k per month (and dat mean sunshine snacks cereal..not post)
If yuh have expensive taste and wanna eat omaha steak fuh dinner 3-4k

Phone/Cable/Water/Power/Maintenence etc -2k(an das basic cable..and no a/c)

Den yuh have consumables toilet paper, car wash, soap, etc 1k (an das generic toilet paper...no charmain eh wipin dat bamsee)

Entertainment (2 movie a month and 3 dinners at TGI or equivalent) 1k(but if u does drink more like 3k)

so we have a total of the bare necessities of about 13.5k for a 2 bedroom in a semi ok neighbourhood, drivin a corolla, with dinner in ruby's every weekend and 2 movies.
Dat eh take into account buying anyting fuh yuh apartment, or savings, and yuh livin alone..if u is a fella yuh not dating no one...or have no chile or anyting...or God forbid a mortgage

yuh tink it easy out dey? 13k good salary?? :lol: BWHAHAHAHA *belly laughter*

sad but true :(

clearly i don't earn enough money!!!!

thank god i still live at home and don't ahve rest/mortgage to pay...

[Solachica]

If you have the money I ent say doh spend it eh but don't you think many people try living beyond their means?
We got backpay and most people were talking abt wht they going buy for Christmas etc. Didn't hear one person say they wud save some.

[Scorpio]

A good salary should also have an element of annual incremental increase pegged to the country's rate of inflation.

[vaio]

another time was a Forum lime :roll:

wait, what is a forum lime ?

Doh tell meh allyuh on de forum actually meet up at TGIF to spam each other's conversations ? :shock:

:shock: :shock:

[Scorpio]

another time was a Forum lime :roll:

wait, what is a forum lime ?

Doh tell meh allyuh on de forum actually meet up at TGIF to spam each other's conversations ? :shock:
Tht was yrs ago. Maybe 4-5 yrs ago. It was with some of the old forum people when it was the Guardian Forum.
We didn't spam each other. :roll:


oh it was de OLD forum ppl....right...that makes all the difference right dey.... :roll:

[vaio]

right now salaries are increasing....we are in a boom .......but when the economy is in a depression ..the question is would salaries go down....

[Solachica]

:shock: I hope we dont go back to the days of wht I heard happened in 86 :evil:

[vaio]

well may be that is a measure that the gov't might have to resort too...it may not be able to sustain salaries....right now its ok but in a depression it may not be....

a good salary now may not mean a good salary then.... :(

[SSDD]

right now salaries are increasing....we are in a boom .......but when the economy is in a depression ..the question is would salaries go down....

seriously?!? never noticed it trust me.

sheppy if you don't mind me asking how much do you make and what do you do?

[oecarb]

Rents these days are $2500 - $3000. Groceries $2000 Entertainment and Eat Out $1 200 (Ruby Tuesdays with girlfriend or wife every friday) Utility Bills $600 Cable $300 Pennywise $300-$500 Maintenance (Car/Home) $300 - $1200 Shoes and Attire $50.00 - $1200 (for a suit) Savings $1000 Credit Card $200.00 Drug Store (what u didn't get in Pennywise) $100.00 (and if u are elderly even worse) Haircut (50.00)/

High end after tax income =$11 350.00

Low end income $7 300 (Trinidad middle class)

I showed this to my elder brother. His pension in the UK is £1200 (about TT $15,000) per month. But he say to tell allyou that allyou miss out medical insurance and doctors bills. So he staying right here in the UK where all that is free.

[lexbarker]

Rents these days are $2500 - $3000. Groceries $2000 Entertainment and Eat Out $1 200 (Ruby Tuesdays with girlfriend or wife every friday) Utility Bills $600 Cable $300 Pennywise $300-$500 Maintenance (Car/Home) $300 - $1200 Shoes and Attire $50.00 - $1200 (for a suit) Savings $1000 Credit Card $200.00 Drug Store (what u didn't get in Pennywise) $100.00 (and if u are elderly even worse) Haircut (50.00)/

High end after tax income =$11 350.00

Low end income $7 300 (Trinidad middle class)

I showed this to my elder brother. His pension in the UK is £1200 (about TT $15,000) per month. But he say to tell allyou that allyou miss out medical insurance and doctors bills. So he staying right here in the UK where all that is free.
Oecarb, would 1200 pounds be considered a reasonable pension. Taking into consideration the high cost of living in the UK, does he have to supplement it with other income(s)? In Canada the poverty level of a household income for 4 people (Parents and 2 children) is around $25,000/year.

[oecarb]

Rents these days are $2500 - $3000. Groceries $2000 Entertainment and Eat Out $1 200 (Ruby Tuesdays with girlfriend or wife every friday) Utility Bills $600 Cable $300 Pennywise $300-$500 Maintenance (Car/Home) $300 - $1200 Shoes and Attire $50.00 - $1200 (for a suit) Savings $1000 Credit Card $200.00 Drug Store (what u didn't get in Pennywise) $100.00 (and if u are elderly even worse) Haircut (50.00)/

High end after tax income =$11 350.00

Low end income $7 300 (Trinidad middle class)

I showed this to my elder brother. His pension in the UK is £1200 (about TT $15,000) per month. But he say to tell allyou that allyou miss out medical insurance and doctors bills. So he staying right here in the UK where all that is free.
Oecarb, would 1200 pounds be considered a reasonable pension. Taking into consideration the high cost of living in the UK, does he have to supplement it with other income(s)? In Canada the poverty level of a household income for 4 people (Parents and 2 children) is around $25,000/year.

Lex, £1200 per month is £14,400 pa. At present exchange rates about US $30,000. He has loads left over at the end of the month. His rent is subsidised. No medical bills. And he lives alone.

[lexbarker]

Would that be considered a good retirement income for another person who pays regular rent/mortgage? what about transport (car/insurance, bustickets) and utilities like electricity, phone etc. taxes.

[oecarb]

Would that be considered a good retirement income for another person who pays regular rent/mortgage? what about transport (car/insurance, bustickets) and utilities like electricity, phone etc. taxes.

Lex, I paid off my mortgage some time ago and my monthly bills are about £800 (US $1650) which includes gas (heating and cooking), electricity, TV licence, phone, broadband, TV, house insurance, car insurances, car maintenance, council tax and car tax. Food costs about £300 per month for me and the wife. We do not smoke and do not drink much.

This is, by my standards, living comfortably. We have two second hand cars at the moment - both bought cash.

I think, if we have to, we can reduce this by about £200 per month - for instance by having one car istead of two.

If we had to pay rent in the private sector, this could mean an extra £600 - £800 per month. However, depending on one's income, the govt will step in with housing benefit - which is why my brother's rent is subsidised.

It is difficult, in a welfare state, to state an exact amount you would need to have as an income because the state has mechanisms in place to ensure that you have a certain standard of living - provided you know how to apply for the various benefits.

[Solachica]

Tv licence? Car tax? Council tax?
Wht are those things? Its paid monthly?

[oecarb]

Tv licence? Car tax? Council tax?
Wht are those things? Its paid monthly?

Sola, in the UK you have to pay about £120 TV licence. This is basically a tax taken by the govt to fund the BBC which runs TV and radio stations and do not have commercials (ads). They also produce shows and films - all paid for by the taxpayer and, if they make a profit they go back into making more shows. The BBC is supposed to set standards for broadcasting. The TV licence can be paid yearly or monthly (about £10 per month).

Then, if you have cable or satellite, you pay extra for their broadcasts.

If you have a car, you have to pay a tax to be allowed to drive it on the public roads. This is called car tax or road tax and varies, depending on the size of your engine and the age of he car (from £55 to about £500 per year). Can be paid annually or every six months.

Council tax is a tax taken by your council to pay for local services - garbage collection, beuatification of public squares, help for disabled people, housing for the homeless etc. This varies depending on the value of your home and can be anything from £1000 to over £4000 per year payable monthly or annually.

Remember the UK is a high tax economy because, if you need it, you would get a lot of help - from subsidised housing to child support to income support - the latter would bump up your salary so you can earn a minimum income even if you are in a minimum wage job and depends on your commitments, number of children, whether you are incpacitated or not.

[KFCSpicy]

none of the above cud mind me ah tall as they in dollars. now if u have de pound sign then i go say de fuss one.

Anyways, I am one of those people like to pay for what I purchase i dont like credit cards and owing people. No kids and no overheads that will make me cry even when I turn 90. So I think I cud live on anything as I doh have de need to be materialistically wealthy just very happy and stress free.

[Solachica]

Thanks for tht breakdown there oecarb it was very informative.
I didn't know abt all tht before.
Seems in the UK they take care of their people.
Are there homeless people living on streets?

[oecarb]

Thanks for tht breakdown there oecarb it was very informative.
I didn't know abt all tht before.
Seems in the UK they take care of their people.
Are there homeless people living on streets?

Unfortunately there are some - mainly in the cities. Especially in London. You have many people gravitating towards the cities attracted by the bright lights. You have drug addicts, alcoholics, people with mental or social problems, people who have been released from mental institutions or who escape, young people who leave home or are kicked out. You have illegal immigrants who cannot register for state aid - including women smuggled nto the country or lured in by offers of fantastic jobs and who are then forced into prostitution. When they can no longer attract trade, they are abandoned on the streets. You have people who do not know how to apply for state aid. You have the general shortage of accommodation in the cities.

Many of these are helped by public and government funded charities like Shelter (http://landing.shelter.org.uk/brand?&id=754799586&gp=Brand), Emmaus (http://www.emmaus.org.uk/), St Mungos (http://www.mungos.org/), Crisis (http://www.crisis.org.uk/), Centerpoint (http://centrepoint.org.uk/) etc - mainly on a night by night basis. This is normally called "sleeping rough" - ie they will probably have a bed for the night but they are not sure exactly where.

[Solachica]

Thanks :)
Intresting.

[KFCSpicy]

Thanks for tht breakdown there oecarb it was very informative.
I didn't know abt all tht before.
Seems in the UK they take care of their people.
Are there homeless people living on streets?

tons of them so doh be fooled by the seeming perfection of the government. they have tons of red tape u have to go through before u get some service. I know I temped in Social Services for a year in Elders Division.

[Jenny]

our office is near a job centre, and the amount of people i does see goin in to claim money...dey could damn well work but they on the dole...the state does give them money. an if they real pretend that they hard up dey will give them a flat with a real low rent payment.

[KFCSpicy]

^^^ thank you very much and these same losers does be out shopping everyday eh!! :shock:

They does even get time off with full pay for their emotional illnesses and stress. Then they does complain about the government.

[Jenny]

seriously....I does see women outside wid big belly (preggers) waitin for they dole money....and they smokin eh....and then they make chirren they cant even afford to tek care of demselves and they makin picknee...steups..ah does get real vex when i see these things...

[Solachica]

Dem abusers of the system does get me vex. butthey allover.
In canada they does get babysitter to watch their chirren to go out and look for a job and thing.
They does get paid for each chile to. :?

[serenity]

Meh, picked 25k+ without reading the first post :oops:
My bad =\

bunta's assessment sounds about right to me.

Me too...

[oecarb]

^^^ thank you very much and these same losers does be out shopping everyday eh!! :shock:

They does even get time off with full pay for their emotional illnesses and stress. Then they does complain about the government.

Yeah, but Gordon Brown in they tail now. You hear his speech this morning. Don't worry, I aint on the dole - I does work shift so I does watch daytime TV sometimes. :D

But, seriously, we have to find some happy medium. People who are genuinely sick and can't work should not have to starve. Neither should their children. If you are unemployed through no fault of your own, I don't mind my taxes going to support you, because in a welfare state it's the govt responsibility to make sure that there are jobs. If you unmarried and pregnant, your child shouldn't have to starve. It's not his fault that he have a useless father and, maybe, an irresponsible mother. So I don't mind my taxes going to pay for housing and child support and unemployment benefit and healthcare and, when he gets older, his education.

I think most people in this country agree that genuine people who are down on their luck should be supported.

The problem is when big healthy hard back people refuse to work and lean back and start drawing the dole and getting all them benefits. You have to deal with them. Give them the benefits but make sure they start training for some kind of job. And force them to do it. Threaten them with withdrawal of benefits. And make them explain why they can't work if they ain't working after a certain time.

Is no joke. Unemployment in the UK is lower than in the US and they keep saying that they have so many more vacancies than unemployed - especially in London. And over a million Poles and Hungarians land here in the last year and most of them got jobs. So what to do with all them who living here and saying they can't find work?

[KFCSpicy]

Boy they are so molly coddled in this country that no matter how much the government do for them they will always find fault with it. Me? I so appreciative of the little systems in place coming from a caribbean island, so maybe is just a case of I have low standards...lol!

[lexbarker]

The problem is when big healthy hard back people refuse to work and lean back and start drawing the dole and getting all them benefits. You have to deal with them. Give them the benefits but make sure they start training for some kind of job. And force them to do it. Threaten them with withdrawal of benefits. And make them explain why they can't work if they ain't working after a certain time.

Why work when there is easy money to get? I think there will be a time when countries with big social benefits will eventually end up in trouble.
France is heading that way closely followed by Italy.

[oecarb]

The problem is when big healthy hard back people refuse to work and lean back and start drawing the dole and getting all them benefits. You have to deal with them. Give them the benefits but make sure they start training for some kind of job. And force them to do it. Threaten them with withdrawal of benefits. And make them explain why they can't work if they ain't working after a certain time.

Why work when there is easy money to get? I think there will be a time when countries with big social benefits will eventually end up in trouble.
France is heading that way closely followed by Italy.

But Lex, I still believe in the ideals of Socialism. I believe that kids should have equality of opportunity. I believe that those of us who are better off should help our fellowman. I believe the state should be responsible for redistribution of wealth.

When you hear people with inherited wealth speak about how hard they work, you wonder if their conscience ever bothers them about where the money came from originally - often from exploitation of people, countries, certain races etc. They start off life knowing other rich people, having their parents' wealth behind them, going to the best schools, invited to join the best clubs - often never knowing what failure is.

I always remember when Stelios Haji-Ioannou was asked how he started his airline (Easyjet), he said "I had the idea for a budget airline. So I borrowed £15 million from my dad and bought a few planes to start up.)

Many people do not have that kind of dad. They woudn't even know the kind of people one needs to get through the red tape. Many people cannot even imagine themselves being successful.

So, in a way, it is a small price to pay if some people get away with screwing the system, in my opinion.

And, like i said, the UK has a much lower level of unemployment than the USA. At least we count our unemplyed according to ILO methods. If we counted it like they do in the USA, we would probably have zero unemployment.

[Jenny]

As someone said earlier, most of this stems from the fact that if they on the dole and there is no actual review of their situation, why work when they get free money.....The system needs to checked once in a while to see who is fleecin the gov't.
There are always loop holes which people find and then they exploit it. Happens in every country I guess.

[lexbarker]

The problem is when big healthy hard back people refuse to work and lean back and start drawing the dole and getting all them benefits. You have to deal with them. Give them the benefits but make sure they start training for some kind of job. And force them to do it. Threaten them with withdrawal of benefits. And make them explain why they can't work if they ain't working after a certain time.

Why work when there is easy money to get? I think there will be a time when countries with big social benefits will eventually end up in trouble.
France is heading that way closely followed by Italy.

But Lex, I still believe in the ideals of Socialism. I believe that kids should have equality of opportunity. I believe that those of us who are better off should help our fellowman. I believe the state should be responsible for redistribution of wealth.

When you hear people with inherited wealth speak about how hard they work, you wonder if their conscience ever bothers them about where the money came from originally - often from exploitation of people, countries, certain races etc. They start off life knowing other rich people, having their parents' wealth behind them, going to the best schools, invited to join the best clubs - often never knowing what failure is.

I always remember when Stelios Haji-Ioannou was asked how he started his airline (Easyjet), he said "I had the idea for a budget airline. So I borrowed £15 million from my dad and bought a few planes to start up.)

Many people do not have that kind of dad. They woudn't even know the kind of people one needs to get through the red tape. Many people cannot even imagine themselves being successful.

So, in a way, it is a small price to pay if some people get away with screwing the system, in my opinion.

And, like i said, the UK has a much lower level of unemployment than the USA. At least we count our unemplyed according to ILO methods. If we counted it like they do in the USA, we would probably have zero unemployment.
All that is said and done, social systems cannot exist without the investments of Capitalists (whom they feed off).

[oecarb]

All that is said and done, social systems cannot exist without the investments of Capitalists (whom they feed off).

Western European Socialism has no quarrel with Capitalists, Lex. As long as they realise that they couldn't make their money in a vaccuum. They need educated and trained workers, an infrastructure which includes a banking system, transport, communications, some sort of social order etc.

And they must pay their taxes so that the state can plan and provide these. The Capitalists would never provide these in a coherent way if left to themselves.

Keep your eye on the American economy over the next year or two.

[lexbarker]

All that is said and done, social systems cannot exist without the investments of Capitalists (whom they feed off).

Western European Socialism has no quarrel with Capitalists, Lex. As long as they realise that they couldn't make their money in a vaccuum. They need educated and trained workers, an infrastructure which includes a banking system, transport, communications, some sort of social order etc.

And they must pay their taxes so that the state can plan and provide these. The Capitalists would never provide these in a coherent way if left to themselves.

Keep your eye on the American economy over the next year or two.
Dont worry, with all the social benefits that they implemented in the last few years (to get votes) they will have problems too.

[oecarb]

Dont worry, with all the social benefits that they implemented in the last few years (to get votes) they will have problems too.

But, Lex, you do have to implement social benefits. There are the poor, the sick, the dispossessed, the disadvantaged etc etc etc

In a country with 50 million people without healthcare, with unemployed benefits stopped after six months, with people using their homes as cash machines to try to live the American dream, what do you think would happen if there is a recession - as some people seem to be predicting - or even a depression? What would happen if house prices fall further and foreclosures increased with unemployment?

Is it possible that you might have millions of starving people and millions without healthcare just sitting there sick and starving and not rising up in arms? And what would millions of Americans do if their banks collapsed?

Many social benefits were introduced ny FD Roosevelt after the Great Depression. Why do you suppose he did it?

[sapodila]

Yuh no............my parents live very humble and comfortable, but their grocery bill for THE WEEK is approx $ 1,050.00TT .... They eat very healthy never mind the land producing, and is only 3 of them in that household. Plus medicine bill at $ 700.00 TT p/m, electric $ 175.00TT, Gas for cooking and car $ 400.00 p/m. Thank God there is no mortgage and car payment.......I would say to live comfortable in Triniland without mortgage and car payment, would one would have to have an income of $7,000.00TT - $13,000.00.TT.

[KFCSpicy]

^^^and is only then yuy go be considered middle income cause now even people who were in higher earning brackets can't afford to live life comfortably without counting every penny.

[lexbarker]

Dont worry, with all the social benefits that they implemented in the last few years (to get votes) they will have problems too.

But, Lex, you do have to implement social benefits. There are the poor, the sick, the dispossessed, the disadvantaged etc etc etc

In a country with 50 million people without healthcare, with unemployed benefits stopped after six months, with people using their homes as cash machines to try to live the American dream, what do you think would happen if there is a recession - as some people seem to be predicting - or even a depression? What would happen if house prices fall further and foreclosures increased with unemployment?

Is it possible that you might have millions of starving people and millions without healthcare just sitting there sick and starving and not rising up in arms? And what would millions of Americans do if their banks collapsed?

Many social benefits were introduced ny FD Roosevelt after the Great Depression. Why do you suppose he did it?
We have already discussed this social subject about a year ago and you know where I stand on abuse of the system. Well, a few banks should have collapsed by now but the Feds are saving them by pumping money. Within the next 2 years when more mortgages are up for renewal I suspect the economy will get worse.

[oecarb]

We have already discussed this social subject about a year ago and you know where I stand on abuse of the system. Well, a few banks should have collapsed by now but the Feds are saving them by pumping money. Within the next 2 years when more mortgages are up for renewal I suspect the economy will get worse.

Yes Lex, we have indeed discussed many aspects of this.

However, do you think this will be a normal recession? After so many people have seen the "American Dream" and would then see it whisked away from them?

Certainly some people do think there will be a recession:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/bu ... ession.cnn (http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/business/2007/11/29/lustout.intv.kirby.recession.cnn)

[lexbarker]

We have already discussed this social subject about a year ago and you know where I stand on abuse of the system. Well, a few banks should have collapsed by now but the Feds are saving them by pumping money. Within the next 2 years when more mortgages are up for renewal I suspect the economy will get worse.

Yes Lex, we have indeed discussed many aspects of this.

However, do you think this will be a normal recession? After so many people have seen the "American Dream" and would then see it whisked away from them?

Certainly some people do think there will be a recession:

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/bu ... ession.cnn (http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/business/2007/11/29/lustout.intv.kirby.recession.cnn)
It is quite possible that there would be a recession as the latest report from the subprime slime does not look good. However, one has to be sacrificed- the economy or the dollar. I think the Feds would sacrifice the dollar so look out for another drop in the interest rate in the next round. Bernanke and his Keynesian economics would flood the USA with paper fiat currency. The Feds should have let the economy made its correction after 2000 Tech market boom. Instead, they intervened have created the real estate boom (with near zero interest rates) that is now busting. The economy is getting deeper in the hole everytime the Feds pumps money.

Also, It was irresponsible of the mortgage companies to give out loans to people who could not normally qualify. In some cases they gave out 125 percent of the value of the property. This is not good business practice. Others used up their home equity and blew it on cars, trips etc. and now they cannot pay back. So, these people are losing their houses too. It is interesting to ponder if Austrian economics were to be followed how it would have turned out. You could have a life time discussion on it.

Last year March the Fed stopped giving out reports on the M3 money supply. First estimates said that the money supply was secretly increasing by around 13% but one I saw some weeks ago said it more looked like 18%. The devaluation of the dollar is causing some problem around the world. Being the largest world consumer, other countries are having trouble exporting to them. France about 6 weeks ago said that the EU would not allow the US to export their inflation to them, but I don't think Europe can do much about it. If the US goes into recession or a worse case scenario- depression, it would definitely be felt by other international countries. As an insuance, prepare yourself.

[oecarb]

Well, Lex, I am pleased to say that I think I am protected.

Like I posted before, our monthly expenditure can easily be covered by my wife's teaching pension and, soon, my civil service pension, the mortgage and credit cards having been paid off.

Fortunately my kids are OK also. My step-son has paid off his mortgage, my daughter nad her partner have fust sold their flat and have a substantial sum salted away in various places. (I advised them not to put it all in one place). My step-daughter and her partner both have good jobs in the National Health Service.

But seriously, though, the main reason for the push to expand the European Union is to get in younger workers from the poorer countries (Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania etc) to work and pay the pensions of us older folk. Hopefully, they would also send money back to their own countries to boost their economies and we in the more developed EU countries can then sell them our products.

With the EU having a population of over 400 million, we should be close to being able to operate without having to import or export too much. This would make us independent of the USA.

So, like the Great Depression of 1929, Europe should come through relatively unharmed - with all our social strutures intact.

[lexbarker]

Well, Lex, I am pleased to say that I think I am protected.

Like I posted before, our monthly expenditure can easily be covered by my wife's teaching pension and, soon, my civil service pension, the mortgage and credit cards having been paid off.

Fortunately my kids are OK also. My step-son has paid off his mortgage, my daughter nad her partner have fust sold their flat and have a substantial sum salted away in various places. (I advised them not to put it all in one place). My step-daughter and her partner both have good jobs in the National Health Service.

But seriously, though, the main reason for the push to expand the European Union is to get in younger workers from the poorer countries (Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Slovenia, Bulgaria, Romania etc) to work and pay the pensions of us older folk. Hopefully, they would also send money back to their own countries to boost their economies and we in the more developed EU countries can then sell them our products.

With the EU having a population of over 400 million, we should be close to being able to operate without having to import or export too much. This would make us independent of the USA.

So, like the Great Depression of 1929, Europe should come through relatively unharmed - with all our social strutures intact.

Getting younger workers to pay your pension sounds like a Ponzi scheme. Are these new workers in the private industry or government? Does the private industry pay pension as good as the government? Is it secured/guaranteed like the government's? If not, I think it is unfair if they do not enjoy the same security as government employees. Here in Canada if you have a government job, you have it made. It takes a lot for them to layoff/fire you. I think our government pension is a Ponzi scheme, you have to depend on the next generation of workers to pay it.

I don’t know if Europe would escape the effects if there is a depression in the US. The world economy is closely tied in so some of the domino effect might be experienced. Your family have good/sound money management so you should be in better shape.

[oecarb]

A little touch of socialism, perhaps. Funny how it can be worked in when trouble looms.


Bush details housing rescue plan

President George W Bush has outlined plans to freeze rates on sub-prime mortgages for five years to help people hit by the US housing market crisis.

The move aims to shield homeowners most vulnerable to the impact of rising mortgage payments which it is feared could lead to a fresh wave of defaults.

This and other measures could help more than a million people, Mr Bush said.

He described the housing downturn as a "serious challenge" but insisted that the economy remained "resilient".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7129990.stm

[lexbarker]

A little touch of socialism, perhaps. Funny how it can be worked in when trouble looms.


Bush details housing rescue plan

President George W Bush has outlined plans to freeze rates on sub-prime mortgages for five years to help people hit by the US housing market crisis.

The move aims to shield homeowners most vulnerable to the impact of rising mortgage payments which it is feared could lead to a fresh wave of defaults.

This and other measures could help more than a million people, Mr Bush said.

He described the housing downturn as a "serious challenge" but insisted that the economy remained "resilient".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7129990.stm
First, the government was the cause of it all. The economy was already on a downward trend and by exercising the keynesian theory they were hoping that it would provide the key for an economic rebirth. But this key opened doors to the wrong people. Looking at the conditions of this "helping hand," it would not provide any help to the majority of sub-prime borrowers. Also, what would happen to the ones that survive the five year term and the rates are up by then? Will they give another handout?

[oecarb]

First, the government was the cause of it all. The economy was already on a downward trend and by exercising the keynesian theory they were hoping that it would provide the key for an economic rebirth. But this key opened doors to the wrong people. Looking at the conditions of this "helping hand," it would not provide any help to the majority of sub-prime borrowers. Also, what would happen to the ones that survive the five year term and the rates are up by then? Will they give another handout?

I realise this, Lex. But what I find funny is how a totally right-wing president could suddenly see the need for helping people. Here comes election 2008. A bit like what we used to call rum and roti politics, eh? 8-)

[lexbarker]

That is why I don't like politicians, they will do anything to get elected. But you see how Bush is backing away from the Iran nuclear thing now? Saying that their intelligence report was outdated and Iran is behaving good for the past 2 years or so?