Homosexuality

[Bob Traveller]

What causes Homosexuality? Is it Genetics? Environmental? A combination?
Do homosexuals have any kind of choice with regard to their sexuality?
Is homosexuality moral or immoral?
Should Homosexuals be given equal rights as heterosexuals?

[vaio]

every individual deserves equal treatment...as for whether it is moral or immoral, i will not cast judgements on others....do they have a choice - yes, always!!

[Bob Traveller]

You say you think they have a choice as to whether the are straight or gay? My difficulty with that is, really, who would choose to be gay in a homophobic society like ours?

[lexbarker]

Bob, tell us, are you gay?

[Bob Traveller]

Yes, I am gay. The reason why I have asked these questions is to see what people think, and why they think so. Homosexuality is so taboo in T&T. I hope that this forum will give people the opportunity to voice their opinions and help me to understand WHY homosexuality is so taboo and why homosexuals are treated the way they are in our country. So everyone, go ahead and say what you have to say.

[Mr Majik]

Bob...who knows...perhaps if I had been raised in T'dad my thoughts would differ. But I have accepted homosexuality as 'just another thing' in life.

In my younger years I was a DJ playing at some of the hottest underground spots in Toronto. I was exposed to gays as a matter of fact, not in a circus freak kinda way. Gay fellas sure were able to liven up even the dullest party.
Gay women, however, ran from hot to cold, with no in between. When they were nice they were great to be around. But when they were vex watch yuh arse! lol

As far as rights, as long as you are human you have basic human rights, regardless what anyone else tells you.

Live Up!

[serenity]

What causes Homosexuality? Is it Genetics? Environmental? A combination?
Do homosexuals have any kind of choice with regard to their sexuality?
Is homosexuality moral or immoral?
Should Homosexuals be given equal rights as heterosexuals?

Havent done the reading into why genetics is a possible cause of homosexuality. So I wont comment on that. I think however the environmental factor may be instrumental in certain circumstances. What of boys who have been sexually abused as children and grow up to be exhibit homosexual behaviour? Are they true gays? What of the fellas in jail who do the same...even after they come out of jail?

This thing about being bisexual is perversion as far as I'm concerned.

I dont know about choice. I had a friend who is gay and he was sometimes depressed and often frustrated with himself so I understand your point about if its a choice, then why would u make the choice of homosexuality if it brought u so much misery esp in our society.

As far as the rights thing go, human rights are just that - rights of human beings annd when last I checked, being gay didnt make u less human.

My take on it is simply to each his own.

[kayt]

I think we are too quick to assign sexualities to people. Why should you be shoved into some box? All people are human and who they are attracted to is their own business.

[strombo23]

i think gay poeple are born so, and that their environment influences the expression of this behaviour. just an observation, but of those of you have have seen a young male child whose mannerisms (walk, talk, run, sit, interaction with others) are of the feminine type. have you ever wondered where is it coming from? its not playing, pretending or imitating. he's just being comfortable with himself. now, if he matures and is gay, i do not know. Bible says it is a sin, so there is God's judgement. I have only two major grievance: (1) wanting to change the definition of marriage to include same sex unions. (2) using biotechnology to incorporate genes from both life partners to make offspring.

[lexbarker]

What consenting adults do in their bedroom is their business. Some are born like this and some are made like this. I have no problem if people are straight or gay as long as thy don't pose a threat to me or my family. But out of curiosity, what is the preference for smooth action, cooking oil, KY jelly or just plain old tallo grease?

[Bob Traveller]

Thank you all for your input. But strumbo23, please explain why you consider these two moot points grievances. Are our concerns purely based on what the Bible says (not that I have a problem with that, just seeking clarification).

Also, I agree with kayt. I know man mature gay men, mature meaning middle aged (35-50 abouts) who only recently either realized they were attracted to other men or started being attracted to other men. Sexuality is a very dynamic and complicated issue and this example is an illustration of that. Peple should not grouped, calssed and labled according to ther sexuality.

Mr. Majik, I think your point is pretty valid. Homophobia in our society is a culturally bread attitude, just as openness and acceptance and respect for homosexuals is culturally bread into the Dutch, and into you, I am inferring, Mr. Majic. Or that is my opinion as to why attitudes toward Homosexuality varies according to Geography.

Please, continue to voice your opinions.

[coldvoid]

If you are in Trinidad, there is a show called Taboo on Thursay nights at 10pm on Gayelle. The show this week (8th Nov 2007) will be dealing with gay rights and homophobia. On the following week, there will be an interview with a gay man who was brutalized by police officers. The man had recently won his case against the officers. There is also a call in segment on the show where you can call in with your views on the topic.

[discipuli]

one of the founders of pyschology said '' The only wrong sexuality is no sexuality'' .

Several animals , and one species of primate exhibit homo and bi sexuality : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Sex ... l_behavior (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Sexual_social_behavior)


So if God made it.. why is it 'wrong' ?

If nature does it , why is it a perversion?

'Normal' is what society decides , has little to do with reality.

[Bob Traveller]

Ok. am really happy to hear how open and accepting everyone who has responded here is to the homosexuality. But this is not a true reflection of the general Trinbagonian attitude. So why then is it that people are so passionate in their homophobia? This is my question. Why is it that people are so passionately against the sexuality and sexual practices of of others? How is the sexuality of a homosexual anyonelse's business? Why does homophobia exist give the fact that sexuality the concern of the individual only?

[lexbarker]

If you live in the larger cities in the western world it is more forgiving. I don't know where you live but Trinidad has a macho society. The idea of man going with man is revolting. They cannot imagine your putting your thing in an area where it is fully contaminated with bacterial waste for pleasure. The sight ,scent and sounds emanating from the reciprocating motion is vile/despicable to them. My moto is live and let live. If you enjoy partaking in this activity that is your business (my hat off to you). Bible thumping religious people would say that it is ungodly to do such a thing. I don't know if they are right or wrong, let God be the judge.

[coldvoid]

I would say generally people in T&T are accepting of what individually they may consider to be deviant behaviour. There is a vocal minority that attempt to inculcate their own agenda upon society but generally people are accepting. Mob mentality Ithink has a big factor in the homophobia. Like a lot of other things, people tend to be accepting on a one on one basis but get a group together and individualism goes out the window. This is why the vocal minority seem to say what society thinks. They shout their beliefs loud and often enough that it becomes the view that is supposedly accepted by society.

There is a major underground society where 'alternative lifestyles' are practiced right here in Trinidad. It may not be glaringly in the open but it does exist. Take for example the Queen of Queens (drag queen beauty contest) competition held recently. There was a write up, before the show, in the newspaper this year. This was the tenth year of the show. Another example is Saucy Pow. She can be seen outside Smokey & Bunty's dancing in heels and she is never bothered because everyone there know and accept her.

That is not to say that a lot of homophobia does not exist. It still does. The thing is we all exist in different areas of society. So in one persons world homosexcuality is normal because maybe there are homosexual persons in that persons life. For another, a homosexual person is something of an annomaly. Two people can live on the same street but move in such different social circles that their whole outlook on life is totally different. I'd say that homophobia stems from lack of information or knowledge about homosexuals. A person who is homophopic generally does not know anything about homosexuals and would rely on secondhand information usually passed on by persons hoping to spread their own agenda. The fact of the matter is that the only thing to know about homosexuals is that it is a man who is attracted to other men. There really is no other vast difference when you compare against variation among stright men.

[KFCSpicy]

Kayt, Serenity all mimiced what I think on some levels. Your chosen sexuality is your business once you are prepared to also deal with society's less than open/broadminded views and consequences towards it.

For every action there is a reaction so if u choose certain roads be prepared to deal with all the putfalls along these roads. It's the way u deal with situations and the quality of your chosen life that matters to me personally. Cause a lot of so called straight people are creating more havoc in the world today all because they think they are better or rightous.

Go figure. Bob do u love and stop tryna worry about what others think of you. Worry about if u can look yourself in the mirror each day and if u can then that is all that matters if u cannot then work it out but not through the eyes and limited mindsets of others.

[Somebody007]

I am suprised I have not seen any religious fanatics in here as yet. Anyways, I think my experience of living in the UK has allowed me to see 'gay people' as just another form of sexuality. In Trinidad and many years ago, I use to see homosexuality as a 'bad' and 'evil' thing but in the outside world, it is considered 'normal' to be gay and hence why my thought processes has change. If you want to be gay, feel proud of your sexuality.

To be honest with you, I am 100% neutral on this issue.

[Bob Traveller]

Thank u very much KFCSpicy. But I am not having an identity crisis. I am simply curious to understand WHY people think what they think. I believe that education is the only way to change people's attitudes. That is the purpoe of this forum. It is to allow people to share their views, see different perspectives and question their own beliefs and attitudes. And I am so happy with the response so far.

Let me tell u my story. Obviously Bob Traveller is not my real name. But here goes. I always knew I was attracted to men. Always. There is something about the male body that is so beatuiful and masculin and sexy. I don't know why I don't find the female body attractive. I can tell when a woman is beautiful, just have never been physically attracted to any. I knew this about myself for many years. The social implications were what struck me later on as I grew older and got exposed to socitey's attitudes. I would never have children, or a wife (duh for all adults, but not so obvious for a child). I would have to face stigma, redicule and cruelty from people for the rest of my life. and when this realisation hit me, I tried, I tried as hard as I could to be attracted to women. I even tried to masturbate by imagining naked women. But....I just couldn't. Why???? I don'tknow. I had no control over it all. Anyway, When i was 19, I felt totally frutrated with life and myself. I needed to try to accept myself rather than fite it. Part of doing that, among other things, was to tell a very close friend of mine about my sexuality. When I was doing this, my mom overheard us. She told my father. Now I was the apple of my Father's eye. I was his joy, his pride, his everything. He love nothing in this owrld more than he loved me. that was the day before my mom told him about me. And when he found out, he said to me, "I can't accept you, I won't accept you." Nothing, no one in this world has hurt me more than those words. There is a deep bitterness and anguis within me that cannot be gotten rid of. If this is love, then I don't want any part of it. I hate the world, I hate peple, for what has happened to me, I hate myself fore being this way. I want to run away. All there is, is pain and lonliness in me. I know that none of you will truely understand me. You can't. Many of you may call me an attension seeker. Others will accuse me of feeling sorry for myself, but this is my story. A story of rejection and lonliness. It is the story of Homosexuals in Trinidad and Tobago. What is to blame for this? The ignorance and arrogance of peple who condemn and hate whattheydo not understand. I hope that at least some of you will benefit from what I have said. I pray that you will begin to see homosexuals as human beings, worthy of respect ans equality, of love and compassion. This is my hope, my prayer.

[perijove]

Bible says it is a sin, so there is God's judgement..

I've always disagreed about the part where God says it's a sin and I've always asked those with whom I disagree with to specifically invoke the verses that say so, and all have failed to do so. I'm not well versed in scripture but I know for sure that in some cases religious fanatics may take a verse in the bible and interprate it in a way that suits their own ideas.

Personally, I've always felt confused as to whether I'm gay or not or whether I'm bi, since my society is very harsh as regards the treatment of the so called 'out' groups it's best I remain confused. :)

[KFCSpicy]

Strombo,

Just to put certain things into perspective here. The bible says a lot of things are a sin and quite frankly all yuh whom quick to use the bible to beat people down is worse than hypocrites. The bible say doh lie. Ah sure yuh does lie. The bible say doh covet...yuh does covet from de time yuh say ah want... the bible say doh eat certain meats...lots of all yuh on here does eat wild meat and things that fall into the catergory of Leviticus. The bible says soooooooooooo many thing. But the one thing none of all yuh so called quoters of text does do is Follow the bible and be tolerant to others. Or be forgiving of others.

Stop using the bible to make your point unless you are without sin Strombo.

[Somebody007]

hehehehe....@KFC Spicy....that comment reminds me of some people I use to talk to when I was a teenager....Girl, I remember how much times I going to hell for not joining the people small church and all kinda ting....

low and behold that same girl who use to preach dat line, end up going in ah man house to preach up d road.....well yuh know what happen nine months later....ah hear nah is not one she end up making eh....twins galore and they born outside of wedlock....Dat girl never show she face infront meh house again.

[KFCSpicy]

sad as hell that she had to feel shamed that she got preggers out of wedlock in the year 2000 and humteen.

I fiercely believe in God and all that the bible contains. But what I try to do is understand things on a grander scale or sometimes on a simpler one. We complicate things too much or over simplify them to suit our moods and current needs.

[Huma]

I think a few important points are being left out of this discussion.

Firstly, no one chooses their sexuality. What they choose is if or how they act on the urges that go along with their sexuality.

Secondly, sexuality is not a rigid thing.



Thirdly, no believer has any authority to tell other believers how they should believe.

When you choose to adhere to a belief system like Christianity, you also choose how you intend to interpret its central text. The religiously-based homophobe has every God-ordained right to hate and condemn homosexuals, depending on how they want to interpret the Bible. In fact, if they want to interpret the Bible literally, they have every right to kill homosexuals if they want.

The Bible provides for interpretations that would set this planet on fire if it weren't for secular laws, human compassion and the force of reason.

[sheppy]

hmmm what i walk into here??

i was staying away from this tread on purpose u know....(besides my perversion post)

well from this thread one can plainly see
some people don't agree with it, some accept it..some are confused about it...some people (bob/perijove) are it .
Still i could bet my last dollar should some of these people that are soo 'accepting' be approached by a gay person, or have a child that turns out to be gay ('turns out' suggestive wording only) their tolerance might not be so impartial...plainly put, alot of us don't have much emotion or connection to this issue because it does not directly affect us.

We can not say gay is natural or unnatural since there seems to be (inconclusive) data that suggests it exists in the animal kingdom. (Although i can't possibly see how an animal ruled by instinct should be compared to a human...they also eat their own faeces and vomit)
We can say it is admonished against (strongly) in both muslim and christian cultures. The 'he who is without sin cast the first stone' approach to those who quote the scripture against homosexuality is sad. We have all done wrong at some point...and while that doesn't mean we can pick and choose the parts of our particular doctrine/dogma to obey, it isn't invalidated by the person(seemingly hypocritical) that uses the bible to validate their opinion.

Alternatively, some ancient egyptian customs seem to promote it, and greek and roman mythology seem to refute that it was a natural way of life, or atleast commonplace....does that mean its ok?

Personally, It is one of the things I strongly disagree with. I can however, accept a person's right to choose, it is their life and choice. I do not promote gay violence or discrimination but it is also my right to have an opinion on it, so if yuh ask me..i will tell yuh what i tink bout it. I must also say that I am increasingly perturbed by our general acceptance or nonchalant attitude to these issues. We are like toads in a pot of slowly boiling water. When the end is imminent it will be too late. Do we know the consequences of allowing gay marriage? or accepting homosexuality? There are laws against sex with animals..and more than one sexual partner (polygamy)for a reason...or is that just 'ole time' thinking? Is that just uninformed and out of touch with today's society and 'progressive' thinking?

If my basic instinct tells me to rape or kill should i not deny myself that instinct? IF i feel as though my whole life I never found humans attractive male or female..but instead a pig or goat...should i not deny myself that instinct?
Don't try to pull apart these analogies...my point is because we have an urge or instinct or feeling doesn't mean we let it dominate us.
It is common to be confused early in your development as a child, or to have moments of doubt. But some things are not natural. How are we better than animals if we choose to allow ourselves to indulge in practices and sexualities that deviate from their intended purpose?
Yes we all have the power to choose...but that power should be used carefully...be proud of your choice...live by it...

If you don't stand for something...you fall for anything.....

[lexbarker]

Well boy, Bob Traveller, I hope this thread answers your query to homosexuality.

[Bob Traveller]

my point is because we have an urge or instinct or feeling doesn't mean we let it dominate us.


MY point, sheppy, is that an individual's sexuality is no one else's business. the urge some men have to have sex with other men can not be compared with the urges serial killers or serial rapists have. Sex between to consenting individuals of the same sex harms no one. What I am saying is, people should be free to follow their instincts, as long as doing so does not cause harm to anyone else. THAT is what distinguishes us from animals, not an absolute rejection of our instincts.

If you think that homosexual acts are disgusting, fine. that is your opinion and you are free to enforce your opinion of what is right or wrong with respect YOUR OWN life, not on anyone else's. Everyone should have the right to enforce their own perceptions of what is right or wrong in their own lives, as long as no one is harmed as a result. In other words, I am saying that just because you think homosexuality is disgusting, that does not mean that you should automatically deny that gays have rights or claim that they don't deserve rights.

[Huma]

If my basic instinct tells me to rape or kill should i not deny myself that instinct? IF i feel as though my whole life I never found humans attractive male or female..but instead a pig or goat...should i not deny myself that instinct?
Don't try to pull apart these analogies...my point is because we have an urge or instinct or feeling doesn't mean we let it dominate us.

Why present the analogies as parts of your argument and then dismiss the eventual responses?

You're comparing sexual conduct between consenting adults to murder and bestiality, when there is no real similarity between the two. It doesn't infringe on anyone's rights or endanger anyone else's life.

It threatens to change society as we know it, but again, change itself is not inherently bad. If you see "the end" as a society where people are free to be themselves, and others are mature enough to let them live their lives, then please...let's end now.

The scary part of your post is that for all your proclamations of tolerance and claims that you don't advocate violence against whoever, your bottom line is that the more tolerant we become of them, the worse off society is.

So if that tolerance is your major problem, what, then, is your final solution?

It only leads to one place.

But is only men like Sizzla and Elephant Man who have the balls to say exactly where that place is.

[serenity]

But thats the point isnt it? The freedom that ppl want to do what they want. One should not live by no rules. There has to be limits and boundaries to everything yet as we 'progress', more and more of these social constraints are deemed archaic and dismissed but with no other rule to replace them. The result being anything goes.

Of course there has to be a balance and thus the age old struggle between individual freedoms and the common good. Yes there should be tolerance of those whose instinct it is to practice homosexuality but there is also the fear that tolerance could lead to promotion. Lots of ppl would not stone u to death for being gay, but at the same time, they still do not think its natural and do not want their children growing up in a world that says it is.

There's a BIG difference bet tolerance and acceptance.

[DingoLey]

If you think that homosexual acts are disgusting, fine. that is your opinion and you are free to enforce your opinion of what is right or wrong with respect YOUR OWN life, not on anyone else's. Everyone should have the right to enforce their own perceptions of what is right or wrong in their own lives, as long as no one is harmed as a result. In other words, I am saying that just because you think homosexuality is disgusting, that does not mean that you should automatically deny that gays have rights or claim that they don't deserve rights.

Bob, the best advice I can give you is this: go far, far away from TnT as soon as you can. The depth of anti-gay feeling you are picking up from sheppy, peanut and the others shows that the reaction you got from your father is typical, if tragic. it comes down to this: TnT is a small, developing country, without the range of educational and cultural exposure available in the US or Europe. That has implications for everything from politics to social policy. The country's population is mostly too close-minded to think about these things rationally. The disappointment your father feels stems mostly from ignorance about your sexual orientation. In a country where gays are seen as "nasty" and "freaks of nature", and where there is no one to offer an alternative viewpoint, this is expected.

One guy I know told his parents that he was gay, which led to a near breakdown in their relationship with him. They see his being gay as an affront to them, their parenting skills, and their wish for grandchildren. He has failed them. I would argue that the failure lies more with them, for not being able to see past their own prejudice and see that their son is the same person he was before he came out to them. He was fortunate enough to get a job abroad so that he doesn't have to rely on them for anything now, but I hope for the sake of both him and his parents that they are able to get some semblance of normalcy back into their relationship.

In your case, Bob, that is the best advice I can offer you. It sounds like there will be a lot of hurt feelings on both sides, which might last a year, or a lifetime, depending on how much your parents are willing to accept that you are still their son. If they don't, the problem is theirs, and not yours. But both you and they will have lost out over a relatively unimportant aspect of your life.

[sheppy]

MY point, sheppy, is that an individual's sexuality is no one else's business
Dude...agreed...i have stated i wholeheartedly agree with a person's right to choose the path for their life...I am not in the street with a placard, nor do i shout hateful slurs when i see homosexuals next to me in a bar, or even serving me at a restaurant. I respect their ability to make that choice and live their life the way they see fit. I just don't agree with it
The same way i don't believe in suicide.. i think its wrong...but if a person wants to go hang themselves from a beam with their belt...that's their perrogotive!

You posted a question...i gave my response honestly...das it...


Bob, the best advice I can give you is this: go far, far away from TnT as soon as you can. The depth of anti-gay feeling you are picking up from sheppy, peanut and the others shows that the reaction you got from your father is typical, if tragic It is tragic that you think disagreeing with homosexuality is closeminded...let's all be blow in the wind people without a care or concern.


It doesn't infringe on anyone's rights or endanger anyone else's life.
It threatens to change society as we know it, but again, change itself is not inherently bad. If you see "the end" as a society where people are free to be themselves, and others are mature enough to let them live their lives, then please...let's end now.

So Huma the rule of thumb is...once it doesnt infringe on anyone's rights or endanger anyone else's life...an outisde party should have no opinion? That's Bollocks.
What is a person guided by? Conscience? Morals? Spiritual belief? this has no bearing on your sexuality? IF i do something in a vaccum on a deserted island or in space where their is no 'human' consequence or judgement does that make it acceptable? right? wrong?
IS that how you live? if it feels good, and it doh hurt nobody...do it!

Serenity you were the closest...it is not acceptance...its tolerance ..big difference.

[serenity]

Why leave soley for the purpose of not having to deal with homophobes? Perhaps efforts should be made to educate our so-called small minded society. I dont think life as a homosexual in trinidad that bad. The gay community is sizeable, and from what I understand, supportive. I personally know 4 lesbians and one gay guy. My good friend is trying to figure out if she's gay (even went on a date last week) and she's living life normally. Nobody eh threaten to beat she or kill she or anything. Please, ppl in this country is all talk, so they might not approve of your lifestyle but they not going to actually spit on the road when u passing. Panday is the only idiot to attack Gillian Lucky on sexual orientation. It wasnt an issue before and did not hamper her political career.

[Huma]

But thats the point isnt it? The freedom that ppl want to do what they want. One should not live by no rules. There has to be limits and boundaries to everything yet as we 'progress', more and more of these social constraints are deemed archaic and dismissed but with no other rule to replace them. The result being anything goes.

Of course there has to be a balance and thus the age old struggle between individual freedoms and the common good. Yes there should be tolerance of those whose instinct it is to practice homosexuality but there is also the fear that tolerance could lead to promotion. Lots of ppl would not stone u to death for being gay, but at the same time, they still do not think its natural and do not want their children growing up in a world that says it is.

There's a BIG difference bet tolerance and acceptance.


Yuh see that part of your post in bold?

That is where the trouble starts in this debate. When yuh simplify it like you did, the ignorant take it as a jump-off point to spew ole talk. Next yuh will hear some jack-ass sayin, "So if ah want tuh kill people or rape chirren, ah could do dat?"

It's not that people should be able to do what they want, period. It's that people should be able to do what they want once it doesn't unreasonably encroach on the rights and welfare of those around them.

As for there having to be limits...why exactly should there be limits? What exactly are you using to define these limits? The common good in universal rights-and-safety terms...or the "common good" in terms of the religious beliefs held by some?

And why must there be new rules to replace rules that were unfit in the first place?

It's almost as if you're advocating rules for the sake of rules. This whole system of checks and balances sounds like rhetoric to me.

[Huma]

So Huma the rule of thumb is...once it doesnt infringe on anyone's rights or endanger anyone else's life...an outisde party should have no opinion? That's Bollocks.


I never said that you shouldn't have an opinion, nah. I'm commenting on the faulty logic that feeds your opinion. It would probably have been better if you just used the Bible as your justification.

But on that note, opinions influence attitudes and actions. And if people feel negatively about something, they will either actively or passively work towards its removal.




What is a person guided by? Conscience? Morals? Spiritual belief? this has no bearing on your sexuality? IF i do something in a vaccum on a deserted island or in space where their is no 'human' consequence or judgement does that make it acceptable? right? wrong?
IS that how you live? if it feels good, and it doh hurt nobody...do it!

Each person has his or her own compass when it comes to morality or ethics.

That is what alyuh just don't get. Not everyone follows your spiritual beliefs or your code of ethics.

The only society that will work is one where everyone has as much freedom as reasonably possible to live by their own code.

[vaio]

hmmmmm...and it continues... :geek:

[Huma]

Please, ppl in this country is all talk, so they might not approve of your lifestyle but they not going to actually spit on the road when u passing.

That's because gays are for the most part underground in this society. They adhere to these "limits and boundaries" and "social constraints" that you mentioned. They take the wide-ranging cultural abuse that's poured on them and play the part of scapegoats to everyone's satisfaction.

They'll never be able to equal or vocal like other groups. When that happens, watch how Capelton and Elephant Man go win a Soca Monarch. Watch how blood will flow on the streets and the witch hunt will begin.

[serenity]

That is where the trouble starts in this debate. When yuh simplify it like you did, the ignorant take it as a jump-off point to spew ole talk. Next yuh will hear some jack-ass sayin, "So if ah want tuh kill people or rape chirren, ah could do dat?"

It's not that people should be able to do what they want, period. It's that people should be able to do what they want once it doesn't unreasonably encroach on the rights and welfare of those around them.
As for there having to be limits...why exactly should there be limits? What exactly are you using to define these limits? The common good in universal rights-and-safety terms...or the "common good" in terms of the religious beliefs held by some?

And why must there be new rules to replace rules that were unfit in the first place?

It's almost as if you're advocating rules for the sake of rules. This whole system of checks and balances sounds like rhetoric to me.

The part in bold is where I think the real essence of this discussion lie. Yes, ppl who are opposed to homosexuality will, for the most part, be tolerant, but as was stated before, they do not accept it, for religious reasons or otherwise. What more do u want from them? To accept it? To pronounce it natural?

To continue with sheppy's analogy, if my neighbour decided he's attracted to a goat and he has relations with the goat on his property with his goat. Should I intervene and say that practice goes against what I believe in and will not tolerate that behaviour in close proximity to my family? Or should I say is his goat and what he does with it is his business bec it eh really affecting my life.

Ppl will speak out against things that affect the order of their world. They will resist what they see as negative changes. Yes, there may not be any tangible effects on their life, but it affects the world they raise their children in. Its one more 'negative' influence that they have to guard their children against.

And of course I'm not advocating rules for the sake of rules. And very little of it, if any, is guided soley by religion. There are rules which can be found in religious scriptures, yes, but that does not make them any less useful to an atheist, like thou shalt not kill or covet etc. Why should there be limits? Thats a silly question Huma. Limits are the boundaries laid down by society on what is acceptable behaviour. If there are no limits then who is to tell Tom what he did is wrong. How do u guide your children on right or wrong if there are no rules?
Things like Carib girls, or Hooter girls do not threaten my future or welfare in any tangible way. But I object to the principle behind it and the message it sends to the public about women. But the rules that would have made such behaviour frowned upon, are now deemed archaic and replaced by the notion that a woman's body is her own to do what she wants with it. No limit.

[serenity]

Please, ppl in this country is all talk, so they might not approve of your lifestyle but they not going to actually spit on the road when u passing.

That's because gays are for the most part underground in this society. They adhere to these "limits and boundaries" and "social constraints" that you mentioned. They take the wide-ranging cultural abuse that's poured on them and play the part of scapegoats to everyone's satisfaction.

They'll never be able to equal or vocal like other groups. When that happens, watch how Capelton and Elephant Man go win a Soca Monarch. Watch how blood will flow on the streets and the witch hunt will begin.


I disagree with u Huma. We have overt transvestites, cross dressers and gays all over the place and there has been no bloodshed. As far as I was told, UWI full of them. Everywhere u lime u see them. Like I said, Gillian Lucky's political career cant have been said to suffer bec of her sexual orientation. And she is very open with it. I work with a lesbian couple and no one says anything untoward. And when they go liming its very obvious that they are together.

[DingoLey]

Bob, the best advice I can give you is this: go far, far away from TnT as soon as you can. The depth of anti-gay feeling you are picking up from sheppy, peanut and the others shows that the reaction you got from your father is typical, if tragic It is tragic that you think disagreeing with homosexuality is closeminded...let's all be blow in the wind people without a care or concern.

Quite right. As you said, it is what I think, and is no less valid as a viewpoint than the idea that homosexuality is wrong. I need not justify it, and you need not excuse it. Unless my opinion has a detrimental effect on other people's lives, the world needn't pay it any more mind than any other opinion. Unfortunately, the opposing idea, that homosexuals are "nasty" or "freaks of nature", and should be treated differently as a result of this idea/opinion and little else, does often have a negative impact on people's lives. We can think whatever we like, but when you start to ostracise or dehumanise people on the basis of some half-baked all-in-your-head negative image, then we all should care.


So Huma the rule of thumb is...once it doesnt infringe on anyone's rights or endanger anyone else's life...an outisde party should have no opinion? That's Bollocks.
Although the "That's Bollocks." argument might sound convincing in a pub, it doesn't really persuade anyone when sheer volume is enough to persuade. The answer to your question about, whether an outside party can have an opinion about matters that have no impact on them or society, has to be a resounding yes. Any other answer would be inconsistent with the principle of freedom of thought, or of expression, and sounds like a busybody's charter. Let's say you are of the opinion that your next door neighbour's red roses in her garden is a symbol of her Satanic origin. Unless you start terrorising her on the basis of this lunatic idea, your opinion is harmless, and you're entitled to it. If on the other hand, her hedges are growing so tall they block the sun from your garden, then her actions have had a real effect on your life, and you would be entitled to take any legally allowed corrective action.


What is a person guided by? Conscience? Morals? Spiritual belief? this has no bearing on your sexuality?

How does any of this have a bearing on Bob's or anyone else's sexuality? People are guided by all of these things, but also by their simpler instincts. Does your having a conscience make you any less hungry if you haven't eaten in a week?


IF i do something in a vaccum on a deserted island or in space where their is no 'human' consequence or judgement does that make it acceptable? right? wrong?
IS that how you live? if it feels good, and it doh hurt nobody...do it!


Sounds like a worthwhile plan to me. Are you saying that if you live on a deserted island, that you would starve to death rather than 'steal' fruit off of a tree? Morals are community values; once you're in a community of size one (1), and there i no 'human consequence' to your actions other than for yourself, who can you possibly harm?

[snowbird]

Bob...who knows...perhaps if I had been raised in T'dad my thoughts would differ. But I have accepted homosexuality as 'just another thing' in life.

In my younger years I was a DJ playing at some of the hottest underground spots in Toronto. I was exposed to gays as a matter of fact, not in a circus freak kinda way. Gay fellas sure were able to liven up even the dullest party.
Gay women, however, ran from hot to cold, with no in between. When they were nice they were great to be around. But when they were vex watch yuh arse! lol

As far as rights, as long as you are human you have basic human rights, regardless what anyone else tells you.

Live Up!

Hey Majik great to hear from yuh.

Re your post ^. I am sure a DJ from a 'straight' club could possibly post the same; seems like there are really no differentiating idiosyncrasies between the two groups other than their sexual orientation. Just goes to show, we are all human beings and that is all that should matter.

Even if it is a life style choice (and I don't think it is) I honestly don't get the pre-occupation others have with what goes on between two consenting adults. I know for sure that the debate has been for the most part based on the 'act', and how wrong it is, and how this type of behaviour can corrupt impressionable minds, and affect succeeding generations; well the same can be said for family violence, yet how often have you heard of cases where the abusive husband (it can also be a wife) or parent has been confronted by a mob and 'taught a lesson'.

What surprises me is that people who speak out against homosexuality are really displaying intolerance, yet we see no huge outcry or call for a debate on 'why are we intolerant'.

[Huma]

What more do u want from them? To accept it? To pronounce it natural?

I'm not demanding anything of anyone. How people want to feel is their choice, and nothing I say can change their minds.

I'm simply discussing the foundations of these opinions, and pointing out where the opinions usually lead.






Why should there be limits? Thats a silly question Huma.

I'll rephrase. Why should there be limits on people's personal choices and activities?

You'll know that something is wrong when your rights are being infringed upon.

If you want to raise your children or live your life with a certain moral or ethical code, do so. But don't try to force that code down the throat of society at large.



That Hooter's analogy is a great point.

The ironic thing is that the same archaic rules and traditions that governed how women should dress and act were inseparable from rules that made women even more second-class citizens than a Hooters employee is today. Religious texts "old time values" have done more to make women look like whores and second-class citizens than any branch of Hooters ever could.

Those rules and traditions were never about respect or morals or the greater good. They were about control.

The bottom line is to respect women, whether they dress like hookers or not. No strings attached about respecting them if they wear their hijab, or if they know their place is in the home.

But that is a next discussion altogether.


These things always subjective. The only thing that everyone wants is safety, a reasonable amount of order in a society, and the freedom to be themselves.

That, therefore, should inform universal limits.

[serenity]

If you want to raise your children or live your life with a certain moral or ethical code, do so. But don't try to force that code down the throat of society at large.


I agree with u. But just to be devil's advocate, isnt that what the homosexual community is doing to our trini society? Trying to shove it down their throats, trying to get acceptance when its clear that most ppl live by another moral/ethical code?

[Huma]

I agree with u. But just to be devil's advocate, isnt that what the homosexual community is doing to our trini society? Trying to shove it down their throats, trying to get acceptance when its clear that most ppl live by another moral/ethical code?

No, I think that's what all groups try to do in any given society.

All groups and individuals want to be treated equally, reasonably and respectfully.

Different races and religions all went through the struggle that gays are now enduring in this country...some still going through it.

If we acknowledge that as a society, we should all be given that right, then we shouldn't pick and choose who the right goes to.



If homosexuals were trying to create a society where everyone is gay, then yeah, that would be a huge problem. Mostly because they'd have to join the line behind Christianity and Islam.

[serenity]

BUt most groups dont get acceptance. They fight for, and get tolerance. To want anything more is to 'shove it down their throats'. Plenty Christians believe that other religions pander to false Gods. So they dont accept that Sri Ram is God, or even a form of God, but they express tolerance of another's right to worship something otherwise.

'Shacking up' is still frowned upon by a large part of society even though is nobody business really and its still a prevalent practice and for most part tolerated.

[Huma]

People are on two different wavelengths with this "acceptance" thing.

When some people say acceptance, they mean true tolerance. Accepting a group and their rights civilly, and not begrudgingly.

When others say acceptance, for some strange reason they mean accepting the practice or belief in your own life.

I don't think that the latter is the goal of most groups. I think they just want to be able to live their lives freely.

Ironic thing is that the "accepting them leads to them dominating you" is prevalent among those religions that are based on that same viral spread of evangelism and conversion. They refuse to exist without shoving their beliefs down others throats, so they automatically think that all others groups intend to do the same.

[sheppy]

That is what alyuh just don't get. Not everyone follows your spiritual beliefs or your code of ethics.


Huma. I never expected anyone to. I said that based on my beliefs and code of ethics. I do not agree with homosexuality.

Unless my opinion has a detrimental effect on other people's lives, the world needn't pay it any more mind than any other opinion. Unfortunately, the opposing idea, that homosexuals are "nasty" or "freaks of nature", and should be treated differently as a result of this idea/opinion and little else, does often have a negative impact on people's lives. We can think whatever we like, but when you start to ostracise or dehumanise people on the basis of some half-baked all-in-your-head negative image, then we all should care.

WHAT?!?! yuh go make me laugh here...if my opinion has a detrimental effect on other people's lives?? so opinions are only worthy if they arn't contrary? i really in shock....
I have never or will ever dehumainze or ostracise homosexual people because i disagree with their lifestyles...
Do vegetarians turn up their nose when u eat a chicken wing?
Do green peace activists throw oil on your door step? when u drive your SUV?

I would like someone to point out where my stated opinion on this topic has said I treat a homosexual person differently or negatively because of my position on their lifestyle....

I hope you are this passionate when someone from Peta sends you a flyer for wearing fur....or someone protests outside your house cus its made of wood...and cutting down trees is murder to them...
or the next piece of chicken u eat...someone turns up their nose at u cuz they are vegetarian...or u eat pork and a muslim person scorns you... WOULD YOU CARE? nope...cuz nobody cares if somebody doesn't agree with what you do...they have their reasons..and you have yours...

[Zerothree]

A significant number of posts have been removed.

It is amazing that supposedly mature individuals find themselves unable to carry on a civilised discussion on a topic.

:evil:



Users are hereby reminded that they have agreed to an Acceptable Use Policy.

Failure to comply with the AUP may result in a termination of your account and being Banned from the Forum.

In other words: Behave.

:evil:

03

[BW]

People need to stop over-thinking things.

:arrow:

ps, good work Zero3.

[Huma]

I disagree with u Huma. We have overt transvestites, cross dressers and gays all over the place and there has been no bloodshed. As far as I was told, UWI full of them. Everywhere u lime u see them. Like I said, Gillian Lucky's political career cant have been said to suffer bec of her sexual orientation. And she is very open with it. I work with a lesbian couple and no one says anything untoward. And when they go liming its very obvious that they are together.

What you heard about UWI is wrong. The few gays in UWI who walk around openly are the exceptions, not the norms. That whole "full of them" attitude is from people who've never seen two gays in the same place in the same day. It's about as off as "the media is full of gays".

Gillian Lucky is in the closet. She hasn't made her sexuality public as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong. Every other example you called are the exceptions, not the rule. Nobody eh goin and rush no lesbians when they most likely just waiting to see them make out. Nobody takin on crossdressers much (and I've seen bottles and stones flung at them in public) when they're social pariahs and often vagrants.

As I said, if or when gays start to act openly in Trinidad, congregating as groups, expressing affection publicly, openly stating their identities...it will be bloodshed.

[peanut]

Thank You 03 and my humblest apologies to Bob-Traveller.

Bob, when you cut through it all to the bottom line .. you and you alone have the right to choose the way you live your life. Should religion ever come into it always remember that God, has given you the will to choose, yes, even your sexual orientation, in a world that is "supposedly" free, where everyone is born equal with an equal right to be born.

The response received here is indicative of why many people choose to stay in the closet for fear of being rejected by society which often result in the vioaltion of the your basic and fundamental rights. Mind you these are the same rights that Nations go to war to protect.

The Gay/Lesbian movement have come a long way in demanding the right to be treated equally, and you should be treated equally in spite of your sexual orientation. To deny you those rights is to deny you the right to freedom, the right to choose and no one, reilgious or secular has been given that right.

Having said that, please bear in mind that not everyone is going to agree with your choice of life style, and the right to agree or disagree is ours, the same way the right to choose how you live, is yours.

[vaio]

this thread is back :o ....hmmmmmm....i really hope ppl listen to 03.....

[serenity]

I disagree with u Huma. We have overt transvestites, cross dressers and gays all over the place and there has been no bloodshed. As far as I was told, UWI full of them. Everywhere u lime u see them. Like I said, Gillian Lucky's political career cant have been said to suffer bec of her sexual orientation. And she is very open with it. I work with a lesbian couple and no one says anything untoward. And when they go liming its very obvious that they are together.

What you heard about UWI is wrong. The few gays in UWI who walk around openly are the exceptions, not the norms. That whole "full of them" attitude is from people who've never seen two gays in the same place in the same day. It's about as off as "the media is full of gays".

Gillian Lucky is in the closet. She hasn't made her sexuality public as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong. Every other example you called are the exceptions, not the rule. Nobody eh goin and rush no lesbians when they most likely just waiting to see them make out. Nobody takin on crossdressers much (and I've seen bottles and stones flung at them in public) when they're social pariahs and often vagrants.

As I said, if or when gays start to act openly in Trinidad, congregating as groups, expressing affection publicly, openly stating their identities...it will be bloodshed.


HUma,
I eh know dey names, cos I doh keep up with the gossip but what about all those hairdressers that are well known gays in the country? What about the one who had the sex change down south? At the final big rally for COP there were rainbow flags flying high when Gillians name was called. Gillian doesnt need to make a verbal statement about her orientation for it to be known or attacked. In fact, to do so might be inappropriate since no one wants to hear about her preference one way or other. And what about the actors and makeup artists. The mass men and the artists? There are many many known gays in this country and their business does not suffer for it. In fact some ppl seek them out for that reason.

But then again, those gays come from a certain class and run in different circles from the regular joe. So, I suppose, if meh neighbour was to come out and say he's gay, he'd have some stress. Hmmmm...I guess being gay is easier and more acceptable if u upper class. A working class gay will face pressure.

[KFCSpicy]

yawwwwwwwwwwn at this.

In every level of society there is discrimination. Some are well hidden and some aren't. Some are learned and some are acquired. I am not going to apologise to anyone on here for being neutral about homosexuality and I am not apologising to anyone who is blatantly rude then boil down like bahgee and pretend acceptance either. This Orwellian warning from the mods was needed to bring some sort of maturity back to the discussion I agree 100% but it's still an accepted intrusion to the basic right to speak yuh mind. No matter if people get offended...people will always be offended by something or the other (e.g. the man have metallic intercourse with his bicycle).

Bob asked viewpoints and he got it. Bob did not ask to be cussed out, insulted or made to feel like he was a degenerate by anyone of us on here nor should he be. Responses should have been to the point and meaningful or funny but never degrading.

For those of u on here whose first instinct was to be violently abusive then that is your choice but it should have been kept in check to your home and your personal environment. The tit for tatting on here is beneath me and quite frankly the one person I am disappointed in is me for even responding to some of the stuff said on here. I please no one on here but me and I aim to make me a better person for me not others so my folly impacts solely on me for now.

I can't wait to see everyone start tempering their comments so as not to get kicked off or to be deemed rude or unfriendly. This is one to watch.

[littleone]

delete

[Huma]

But then again, those gays come from a certain class and run in different circles from the regular joe. So, I suppose, if meh neighbour was to come out and say he's gay, he'd have some stress. Hmmmm...I guess being gay is easier and more acceptable if u upper class. A working class gay will face pressure.

That's more or less what I was saying, but I don't think it's a matter of class or wealth alone.

It's a matter of the role you occupy in society if you're gay. There are certain accepted niches for gays, such as the the arts, culture, media and fashion fields. Sorfmen fields.


And I don't know how "inappropriate" it would be for Gillian Lucky to come out and use her identity as a lesbian as founding point for her struggles for inequality. All social activists use their backgrounds and identities to illustrate their dedication or connection to their cause. You were right about one thing though: No one wants to hear about her preference. Nobody wants the confirmation. I guarantee you that she will lose supporters if that happens.

Once she keeps being a nice little closeted butch dyke, her social obligation is fulfilled.

[Scorpio]

humm... :shock:

[serenity]

Bob,
I have a question of my own to pose to u.
Plenty gay men are identifiable by a certain walk, manner of speaking etc. I was just wondering if these are natural mannerisms or affectations that are adopted to identify with the stereotypical gay male as portrayed in the US media?

[Bob Traveller]

Well, to be quite honest serenity, I don't think any kind of body language is truly natural or instinctive. I think it is all leaned. As for gay men, some boys from a young age 'naturally' adopt feminine mannerisms, like myself. I don't know why, I just did, instead of picking up those that were more acceptable for a boy. But I don't think I picked them up from American portrayals of gay characteristics. I think I picked them up from observing women.

But then again, there are them men whom you would never suspect are gay, because they act just like men! Whether they naturally picked up male mannerisms instead of female ones or they forced themselves to learn and practice male mannerisms to avoid stigmatization, I don't know. What do you think?

[BW]

Well, to be quite honest serenity, I don't think any kind of body language is truly natural or instinctive. I think it is all leaned. As for gay men, some boys from a young age 'naturally' adopt feminine mannerisms, like myself. I don't know why, I just did, instead of picking up those that were more acceptable for a boy. But I don't think I picked them up from American portrayals of gay characteristics. I think I picked them up from observing women.

But then again, there are them men whom you would never suspect are gay, because they act just like men! Whether they naturally picked up male mannerisms instead of female ones or they forced themselves to learn and practice male mannerisms to avoid stigmatization, I don't know. What do you think?

I disagree. I think God makes us all special and unique. None of this new wave psychology stuff where they over-analyze everything for some "environmental" cause.

As a great man used to say, "'I am what I am and thats all that I am."

[perijove]

Bob,
I have a question of my own to pose to u.
Plenty gay men are identifiable by a certain walk, manner of speaking etc. I was just wondering if these are natural mannerisms or affectations that are adopted to identify with the stereotypical gay male as portrayed in the US media?

Serenity, you might not fully understand the complexity of the expectations society has placed on men especially in terms of mannerisms.

Most of my straight male friends seem to change their personality depending on where they are, and just last week I witnessed a very straight 'macho' man crying at the happy ending of some soap opera. I believe that a great number of men put on a guise of masculinity, especially when in a large group, those who don't (gay or not) may not fit in so well with the rest.

[Huma]

I disagree. I think God makes us all special and unique. None of this new wave psychology stuff where they over-analyze everything for some "environmental" cause.

As a great man used to say, "'I am what I am and thats all that I am."

There's nothing "new wave" about the fact that your environment influences the way you behave.

And there's no contradiction in the idea that we're a product of both nature and nurture.

Each person has his or her own nature (personality etc) which dictates how they respond to their environment and life experiences. Each component plays a part.

The naturally compassionate person will not be the same if she grew up in a convent as if she grew up struggling to survive in a warzone. A naturally aggressive boy will grow into a different man if he's abused than if he's loved and cherished.

[lexbarker]

Don't knock it until you have tried it.

[oecarb]

I fiercely believe in God and all that the bible contains. But what I try to do is understand things on a grander scale or sometimes on a simpler one. We complicate things too much or over simplify them to suit our moods and current needs.

Spicy, in my book, you have the Old Testament, which is the book of the Jews with Jehovah as God and, on the other hand, you have the New Testament with the teachings of Jesus.

As far as I could see, Jesus always preached tolerance and forgiveness - love thy neighbour, turn the other cheek, the parable of the vineyard, the parable of the one lost sheep from the hundred, blessed are the peacemakers etc etc. The only time I know that he ever punished anyone was when he whipped the moneychangers in the temple.

The OT - I am a jealous God, sacrifice your son to me so I could see you're faithful then when youre really worried and about to stab your son to death, I will send you a lamb instead, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth, go and attack Nineveh, fire and brimstone etc etc.

I am not a believer but, if I was, I could more see with the teachings of Jesus.

By the way, I have one thing in common with Ehud Olmert (http://www.gaymiddleeast.com/news/article132.html) and Dick Chaney (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/06/AR2006120600221.html) - I have a lesbian daughter. I don't know if they love their daughters but I love mine.

.

[KFCSpicy]

;) And in the end that is what it's all about...She is lucky to have you and your respect for her because I am quite sure (and correct me if I am wrong here) that her private sexual prefs. does not impact on her as a person and a woman on any grand scale that would make u want to kill her rather than deal with her adult decision.

Oecarb I totally respect that in any person or parent to love unconditionally...as i said she is blessed to have you on she side.

[Bob Traveller]

Oecarb, I truly admire you. I don't know whether your daughter appreciates what you have done for her, or the way you stil feel for her, rather, but I would like to tell you, nothing is more comforting, nothing is more precious to your child (take it from me, I know), especially with regard to their sexuality. Thank you for accepting her and loving her none the less.

[oecarb]

Oecarb, I truly admire you. I don't know whether your daughter appreciates what you have done for her, or the way you stil feel for her, rather, but I would like to tell you, nothing is more comforting, nothing is more precious to your child (take it from me, I know), especially with regard to their sexuality. Thank you for accepting her and loving her none the less.

Bob, she is my daughter. My wife and I loved her the day before she told us she was gay. So why, one day after, should we stop loving her? She was still the same person and we were still the same.

And being gay isn't a crime in this country anymore - though the law was always fuzzy about lesbianism as opposed to male homosexuality.

[sheppy]

As a parent you should always love your child no matter the choices they make in life.

It is your duty as parents to teach them and you are responsible for their development atleast the foundation.
Loving your child should not be conditional or inspite of their choices. It should not be seen as acceptance or approval of their choices either...

[KFCSpicy]

oh dear^^^ Sheppy for once I think u missed de point. That is suprising. He not judging he daughter and he doh think what she chose is wrong...simple. He doh have de hang ups most of you seem to have. So let go and let God nah dread...move on from tryna tell people how they wrong in accepting what they want to accept and let us all answer to our makers in the end for the lives we lead now and the decisions made or avoided.

It's not up to u or me to say. :roll:

[sheppy]

Nah i din miss d point spicy.... i understand carb's point of view...he seems ok with his daughter's orientation..which is completely his view...I was just saying even if he didn't agree...it should not make him love his daughter less...either way i applaud carb's approach. The child should not suffer.

I still maintain my beliefs are my beliefs and my opinion is my opinon...i never try to force it on anybody else..
i just stated it.

[KFCSpicy]

Ah know PAstor Cuffie ah get yuh drift long time.

[Bob Traveller]

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/homorig.html

This website gives a summary of some of the most recent research into the origins of homosexuality. Take a look.

[Scorpio]

I personally do not have a problem with whatever big grown up hard back men choose to do in the privacy of their bedroom....however...

I draw the line when gay people expect the world to share their values and think it is right to a man to ride another man back.... :?

If everybody in the world respected each others' values we wouldn't have a problem.... ;)

Let's face it, there are people who will NEVER think that homsexuality is ok, gay people need to respect their view, just like they want people to respect theirs... :geek:

I can respect your right to stick your thing in a man's ***** hole if you want to (yuck :evil: ) without necesaarily thinking it's right and ok to do so. 8-)

[Bob Traveller]

Thank you scorpio. My sentiments exactly. gay people never wanted the rest of society to be gay, all we ever wanted was respect and recognition for our right to make our own choices and conduct our lives as we see fit and not be stigmatized and ridiculed and even in some cases prosecuted because of our own choices. What I do in my bed, is my business only, just as what you do in your bed is yours only. And just as whom you chose to marry is your business, whom i choose to marry is my business.

Many ppl claim to have no prob with what other ppl choose t do in bed (on the basis that that is their choice and their business) and yet are opposed to gay marriages. I don't understand this point of view because it seems to me that it is contradictory. Given that both an individual's sexual practises and whom an individual marries are issues than society as a whole has no business in interfering, if you take the stance that people are free to do as they please in bed, you should also take the stance that gay marriages are fine.

[Scorpio]

^^ok, we cool then, BT. :D

[KFCSpicy]

^^^^lmao u does kill me u know...dis is why I like u like cook food.

Bobby someone on here once made a point about how her friend of another religion used to invite her to her chosen religion but de one time that friend tried to get the other friend to attend her chosen religion de girl adamantly refused based on her religious prinicples.

I see this as the same thing. I still advocate freedom to choose the right or wrong path in life however and I will not tell a grown man or woman that I think they are evil, dirty or bad because as a consenting adult they choose to do certain things behind closed doors with other consenting agreeable adults.

That said and done....Scorps so is ok for big hard back men to put it up women's shizzt hole then? Cause nuff man does run dat route and eh feel a how. So i guess is a double standard thing here not just the act of sodomy. So therefore if it is the sodomy that bothering u then maybe u should dislike it right across de board not so? and not hate the fact that is two men doing the act? ;)

[Bob Traveller]

Many straight men are 'afraid' that gay men will rape them or like them. Therefore they Hate homosexuals.

three things to say to this.

1) Just because a man is gay it does not mean he is more likely to be a rapist.

2) Just because a man is gay, it does not necessarily mean he will be attracted to you (Are straight men attracted to EVERY woman they see?). So stop feeding your baseless pride, Gay men may be very far from finding you attracted, so you are safe.

3) Even if a gay man is attracted to you, and actually makes a move, all you have to do mis tell him you are not into that scene, and that is the end of that, whet is there to be afraid of?

People's justification, or attempted justification for homophobia can be downright ridiculous sometimes.

[Huma]

Many straight men are 'afraid' that gay men will rape them or like them. Therefore they Hate homosexuals.

I think that's an oversimplification of a much broader fear.

The fear is not one of personal assault, but of societal change. Mainstream gays take society out of its traditional/religiously influenced comfort zone. The force in which so many have entrusted so much is failing, in their eyes. "How can we survive in a world where everybody doh feel Jesus is king?"

It's about the redefining of masculinity. And that is terrifying to men whose manhood and virility are their only real possessions. "If that sorf ting could call heself man, what my manhood worth anymore?"

Fears like those breed hate, not just fears of being raped.

[oecarb]

Many straight men are 'afraid' that gay men will rape them or like them. Therefore they Hate homosexuals.

three things to say to this.

1) Just because a man is gay it does not mean he is more likely to be a rapist.

Some men do rape other men. Why? Maybe the are homosexual. Maybe they just want to exercise power. (Some women say this of rape) I have heard men in TT say that "giving" is ultra-macho. "Taking" is effeminate. They don't seem to understand that both are homosexual acts.


2) Just because a man is gay, it does not necessarily mean he will be attracted to you (Are straight men attracted to EVERY woman they see?). So stop feeding your baseless pride, Gay men may be very far from finding you attracted, so you are safe.

Depends on how many drinks went before. Remember - alcohol was invented so that ugly people can have sex too. :lol:

3) Even if a gay man is attracted to you, and actually makes a move, all you have to do mis tell him you are not into that scene, and that is the end of that, whet is there to be afraid of?

Yeah, I find that. I just say I'm staight and then we go on having a chat. Sometimes gay men do continue to flirt - even so. I remember when I was leaving one job, one of my gay colleagues wrote on my card "It was nice having your acquaintance. Pity I couldn't remember his name." :lol:

People's justification, or attempted justification for homophobia can be downright ridiculous sometimes.

[Bob Traveller]

Many straight men are 'afraid' that gay men will rape them or like them. Therefore they Hate homosexuals.

I think that's an oversimplification of a much broader fear.

The fear is not one of personal assault, but of societal change. Mainstream gays take society out of its traditional/religiously influenced comfort zone. The force in which so many have entrusted so much is failing, in their eyes. "How can we survive in a world where everybody doh feel Jesus is king?"

It's about the redefining of masculinity. And that is terrifying to men whose manhood and virility are their only real possessions. "If that sorf ting could call heself man, what my manhood worth anymore?"

Fears like those breed hate, not just fears of being raped.


Ok Huma. I can see where you are coming from.

Yet I have to say, the deep insecurities that men face in themselves and their 'masculinity' can never be justification for depriving anyone of their rights.

[sheppy]

:lol:
bob-
I have been approached by gay guys before (not in Trinidad tho) and for the most part they were pretty decent about it. and I was respectful in my decline. I mean if yuh cud get hit on by girls and guys well...i say das an accomplishment.. :lol:
In any case I was never afraid of being raped by a gay man...I am not afraid of gay men. I don't particularly like being approached by gay men, (or not so pretty women either..) I guess by definition i cannot be considered homophobic then...

Huma-
your seeming disdain for religion oozes from your post...which the assumption made therin i do not agree with.
Yes, zealots use their doctrine to claim superiority (which i personally despise) but do not confuse conviction with discrimination.
I am more inclined to agree with the redefinition of masculinity (and insert metrosexual discussion here) as one possible reason for fear of not homosexuals individually, but the societal acceptance of what single sex relations represent and mean.

[KFCSpicy]

^^^welcome to the world Bob... whether it's homosexuality or race or religion man does do that to no end. So either understand it and deal with it or you will continually be butting your head against the proverbial brick wall. :?

[Scorpio]

That said and done....Scorps so is ok for big hard back men to put it up women's shizzt hole then? Cause nuff man does run dat route and eh feel a how. So i guess is a double standard thing here not just the act of sodomy. So therefore if it is the sodomy that bothering u then maybe u should dislike it right across de board not so? and not hate the fact that is two men doing the act? ;)

K, ah find yuh straying from the topic, this thread is about man puttin it in another man shizzt hole, not man puttin it in women's shizzt hole, yuh might have to start a whole new thread about that or risk getting in trouble for spamming. :D

[KFCSpicy]

har harrrrrrrrrrrrrr pee off Scorpee.

Is all under the discussion umbrella of homosexuality so I sure I safe :?

[Huma]

Ok Huma. I can see where you are coming from.

Yet I have to say, the deep insecurities that men face in themselves and their 'masculinity' can never be justification for depriving anyone of their rights.

I never said it's a justification. I'm just trying to inform you so that you can present your argument a bit better in the future.




Huma-
your seeming disdain for religion oozes from your post...which the assumption made therin i do not agree with.
Yes, zealots use their doctrine to claim superiority (which i personally despise) but do not confuse conviction with discrimination.


I wasn't trying to show disdain or disregard for religion. I wasn't even trying to show that (some) religious people feel superior to gays. I thought my post was simple enough: There exists a traditional/religious comfort zone in this society (like many others), and the mainstreaming of homosexuality is a scary thought to those who relied on said comfort zone.

It's hard to confuse conviction with discrimination, as one is an attitude and one is an action. However, it can't be denied that the former usually leads to the latter.

And yuh doh even hadda be a zealot to involve yuhself in that formula.

[Bob Traveller]

thank you Huma! :-)

[dancerboy]

I WOULDN'T TOUCH THIS THREAD WITH A TEN FOOT POLE. However, what a man (or woman) does in the privacy of his home is no concern of mine. But some "men" are too flamboyant in their gaiety. However,what i will say to the gay community though is "THANK GOD YOU CANNOT BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY" . DANCERBOY

[Somebody007]

I WOULDN'T TOUCH THIS THREAD WITH A TEN FOOT POLE. However, what a man (or woman) does in the privacy of his home is no concern of mine. But some "men" are too flamboyant in their gaiety. However,what i will say to the gay community though is "THANK GOD YOU CANNOT BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY" . DANCERBOY


Dancerboy I know where you coming from with your argument but doesn't it entail prejudice from the 'forum's standpoint'?

[serenity]

However,what i will say to the gay community though is "THANK GOD YOU CANNOT BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY" . DANCERBOY

Dancerboy, by making that statement (in bold), u endorse of the school of thought that homosexuals are born that way. If that is an accepted fact, then what is your issue with them openly exhibiting their 'gaiety'? Its like asking someone who was naturally born with blue hair to hide their hair.

[BW]

However,what i will say to the gay community though is "THANK GOD YOU CANNOT BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY" . DANCERBOY

Dancerboy, by making that statement (in bold), u endorse of the school of thought that homosexuals are born that way. If that is an accepted fact, then what is your issue with them openly exhibiting their 'gaiety'? Its like asking someone who was naturally born with blue hair to hide their hair.

Eh, that's differential treatment. Flamboyance is a personality trait, just like any other personality trait. It's perfectly OKAY for him to like or dislike certain traits, regardless if those traits are in-born or not.

[dancerboy]

The statement that THANK GOD THEY CANNOT BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY, was just a play on the biblical exhortation to married couples "TO BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY". But this is a double edged sword, for even if homesexuality is in-born, if they cannot "MULTIPLY", they will eventually become extinct. And, if it's learned , by socialization, or whatever means, it will be eventually extinct, because they cannot "BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY"

[oecarb]

The statement that THANK GOD THEY CANNOT BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY, was just a play on the biblical exhortation to married couples "TO BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY". But this is a double edged sword, for even if homesexuality is in-born, if they cannot "MULTIPLY", they will eventually become extinct. And, if it's learned , by socialization, or whatever means, it will be eventually extinct, because they cannot "BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY"

This is silly. How many homosexuals are descended from homosexuals? Homosexuals are generally the products of heterosexual relationships. And homosexuality has been around for millennia. So it will continue to exist.

[KFCSpicy]

I am sure the Greeks would disagree with u there dancerboy. Homosexuality eh going no where and it is older than Methusalah.

[lexbarker]

The statement that THANK GOD THEY CANNOT BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY, was just a play on the biblical exhortation to married couples "TO BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY". But this is a double edged sword, for even if homesexuality is in-born, if they cannot "MULTIPLY", they will eventually become extinct. And, if it's learned , by socialization, or whatever means, it will be eventually extinct, because they cannot "BE FRUITFUL AND MULTIPLY"

This is silly. How many homosexuals are descended from homosexuals? Homosexuals are generally the products of heterosexual relationships. And homosexuality has been around for millennia. So it will continue to exist.
Also, some of them are bi-sexual and most of the time their products are STRAIGHT.

[oecarb]

This is silly. How many homosexuals are descended from homosexuals? Homosexuals are generally the products of heterosexual relationships. And homosexuality has been around for millennia. So it will continue to exist.
Also, some of them are bi-sexual and most of the time their products are STRAIGHT.

What! You mean there are no mummy and daddy homosexuals producing lots of baby homosexuals? :lol: :lol: :lol:

[KFCSpicy]

lmaooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooo ...oh ...de sarcasm on here. :lol:

[Bob Traveller]

There are so many men I have met, so many men who have been hitting on me who are married and have kids. Some just need to have sex with other men. Others want a real romantic relationship with another man. I wonder how many married men have this desire but either suppress it or never get the opportunity to allow it to manifest itself. One married man who was hitting on me has had several affairs with men while married nd said to me that he only considers having sex with another woman to be cheating on his wife, not having sex with other men. Just thought I would share this with u guys.

[lexbarker]

By the same token Bob, if a lucious woman is really hitting on you, would you not bat an eye and have a quickie? By quickie I mean not long enough to "make" you straight.

[Bob Traveller]

The truth is, lexbarker, no. I never have gotten even a partial erection off of a woman. And trust me, I have seem my share of every attractive women. I can tl when a woman will be attractive to other men or when she is beautiful, but never have I actually become aroused by a woman.

[oecarb]

There are so many men I have met, so many men who have been hitting on me who are married and have kids. Some just need to have sex with other men. Others want a real romantic relationship with another man. I wonder how many married men have this desire but either suppress it or never get the opportunity to allow it to manifest itself. One married man who was hitting on me has had several affairs with men while married nd said to me that he only considers having sex with another woman to be cheating on his wife, not having sex with other men. Just thought I would share this with u guys.

Bob, there are no laws preventing a gay man from marrying and having children. In fact, through the ages, gay people who wanted to conceal their homosexuality have found marriage an excellent way to do this.

As for children: gay men, as you know, can father children and lesbians are quite capable of conceiving - Dick Cheney's daughter being a case in point. And there is nothing to stop a same-sex couple from wanting to be parents. In the UK, gay people have adopted and they have produced children by surrogacy and sperm donation.

There was a case in the papers recently about a gay man whose best friend was a lesbian. Because they liked each other and got along well, they decided to buy a flat together. After some years, they decided they would both lke children. They further decided that they might as well have a child together since they were living together. So he produced some sperm and she used the old turkey baster and, bingo, she got pregnant. They had a beautiful baby boy and decided that, since they lived together and had a child together, they might as well get married - which they did.

But they both kept up their gay relationships and would babysit for each other.

Cosy, eh?

[trinidadobserved]

What causes Homosexuality? Is it Genetics? Environmental? A combination?
Do homosexuals have any kind of choice with regard to their sexuality?
Is homosexuality moral or immoral?
Should Homosexuals be given equal rights as heterosexuals?
1. Nobody knows.

There is no evidence that:

a. It's genetic/biological.

b. It''s caused by a distant/absent father and an overbearing mother.

c. It's acquired through experience (confusion after being molested/ taste acquired in prison)

I think it may be all, but not in equal proportions.

2. Homosexual behavior is immoral as outlined in the Holy Bible. You decide if the Bible is authoritative in your life. However, do not try to make the Bible say what it does not.

3. Equal human rights (life, fair trial etc.). About marriage and adoption? I don't think we should mess with thousands of years of human history. Every child deserves a mother and a father, because women are not men without penises.

[trinidadobserved]

I disagree with u Huma. We have overt transvestites, cross dressers and gays all over the place and there has been no bloodshed. As far as I was told, UWI full of them. Everywhere u lime u see them. Like I said, Gillian Lucky's political career cant have been said to suffer bec of her sexual orientation. And she is very open with it. I work with a lesbian couple and no one says anything untoward. And when they go liming its very obvious that they are together.

What you heard about UWI is wrong. The few gays in UWI who walk around openly are the exceptions, not the norms. That whole "full of them" attitude is from people who've never seen two gays in the same place in the same day. It's about as off as "the media is full of gays".

Gillian Lucky is in the closet. She hasn't made her sexuality public as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong. Every other example you called are the exceptions, not the rule. Nobody eh goin and rush no lesbians when they most likely just waiting to see them make out. Nobody takin on crossdressers much (and I've seen bottles and stones flung at them in public) when they're social pariahs and often vagrants.

As I said, if or when gays start to act openly in Trinidad, congregating as groups, expressing affection publicly, openly stating their identities...it will be bloodshed.How does a gay person "walk around openly"?

You can't tell the third of them by sight, because most people the country who are attracted to their own sex look very "normal". They avoid other gays and very often have girlfriends.

Many people would be shocked, but this works brilliantly for people who want to hide. It means they fly in plain sight due to the ignorance of others--which is just how they want it.