Ignoring Dishonest and Unethical Behaviour

[just1fix]

My personal principles indicate to me that I should vote for a party which demonstrates ethics and integrity.
I have ruled out the PNM because of their poor policies in preparing this country for the time when oil and gas runs out.

The UNC says all the right things about ethics, integrity and good governance but careful scrutiny of their leaders reveals behaviour which is at odds with their stated goals:
1) Lawrence Duprey has stated in court that he provided a scholarship or financial assistance to Panday's two daughters despite the fact that there were more deserving candidates. Panday did not declare his bank account to the integrity commission, despite the law saying otherwise. He claims he did not know about the account. It is mind boggling that your daughters could receive a scholarship and you not know about it or where the money was held.
2) Basdeo Panday and his wife are also before the courts with allegedly receiving 25,000 pounds
3) Simpaul's travel agency run by the Warners huge markups on World Cup tickets, contrary to Fifa rules. This was a clear ethical breach which Jack Warner claims to have corrected by resigning from Simpauls. However why did he have to wait for it to be exposed before acting?
(See below for links and quotes to information sources. Zerothree - this means you!!.)

Could and honest and ethical person still vote for these men if they believed the above to be true as reported by the media? If such a person did vote for the UNC believing the above, would it be sacrificing that person's own personal integrity?

Could that person ever have any moral right to ask for good governance or fair treatment after that? Would they have any moral right to pronounce on issues of corruption and morality in public office? Do they have Trinidad and Tobago's best interest at heart or is it compromised by misguided loyalty?

thoughts anyone?

N.B.
My prior post was taken down because someone complained that it contained libelous content. I was warned by site admin Zerothree. However people should be aware that to date despite several queries by myself, Zerothree has been unwilling or incapable of providing the statements of fact made in in my original post which he deemed to be untrue. He has instead pointed me to libel rules and reforwarded me my entire post. I have come to the conclusion that Zerothree did no serious analysis to determine if in fact my post was libelous and instead knee jerked in reaction to a complaint which may or may not have been an attempt to muzzle my post. I have therefore included all the sources of for information represented as facts in this post.


(1)
http://www.newsday.co.tt/panday_trial/0,35144.html

NEWMAN: Look at this document, I see 119,000 pounds sterling put in a joint account at Nat West bank in Wimbledon in the names of Basdeo and Oma Panday in November 1997. Is there anything extraordinary and unusual about that?

DUPREY: Nothing. That amount, take it by itself for two people, is normal. It was for the daughters of Basdeo Panday educating themselves in the United Kingdom in the field of law. This was not the best amount, nor the least amount.


CASSEL: Did you think Mr Panday’s daughters were going through some sort of hardship?
DUPREY: I thought so.
CASSEL: Did you think it was a priority to help the Prime Minister’s daughters?
DUPREY: No. There were more deserving people, but Mr Panday’s daughters needed it, so I gave it.

http://www.newsday.co.tt/court/0,64583.html
(2)
Galbaransingh, John, Panday and his wife Oma are charged with a series of offences which allege that Galbaransingh and John gave Panday £25,000 as a bribe to favour Galbaransingh’s Northern Construction Limited (NCL) in the tendering process for Piarco construction package 3 in December 1998. This, in contravention of Section 4 of the Prevention of Corruption Act 1987.

http://www.transparencyinsport.org/down ... lpaper.pdf (http://www.transparencyinsport.org/downloads/files/dailymailpaper.pdf)
(3)

The Warners began operations in June 2005, using their private Simpaul travel company
in Trinidad to strike secret deals to sell thousands of packages of rooms and tickets
to agents around the world.
FIFA turned a blind eye but were forced to act when the Trinidad media revealed last
December that Warner charged huge mark-ups on Simpaul ticket-and-room packages.
FIFA’s ethics committee criticised Warner’s ticket deals,concluding he had abused his
position to obtain personal benefits and failed to declare his business interests.
But in March the executive committee absolved him after he claimed he had severed connections

[Scorpio]

The grassroots ppl not studying honesty and ethics, and that is the largest section of voters for both PNm and UNC.

[Solachica]

Yea the grassroots people are saying I am PNM/UNC till ah dead 8-)

[Scorpio]

^^^ exactly, they are harder to reason with.

[Maccogirl]

You know why because PNM has spent 200 billion dollars in 6 years and there is nothing to show for it, maybe if some one can say exactly where that money went and to whom it would make a difference to some.

Closing down Caroni because it was a 100 million drain a year on the treasury but then turn around and adopt a CEPEP bill of 400 million a year might make sense to some, it sure as hell don't make sense to me.

Building one set of concrete structures in POS saying you fed up with paying rent and then turning around and leaving a government built rent free building to give Issa Nicholas a income of 7 million a year in rent sure dose not seem like good management, but then again some of these issues just don't seem to reach out to some for them to ask what really going on here.

As a matter of fact there are many issues in this country that people just don't care about, Christmas coming, Carnival also so we will deal with all that when the fete done, in the meantime 5 more for the PNM so what lets all make sure it don't even have a opposition in the house PNM love we and things nice :D :D :D :D

[just1fix]

As a matter of fact there are many issues in this country that people just don't care about, Christmas coming, Carnival also so we will deal with all that when the fete done, in the meantime 5 more for the PNM so what lets all make sure it don't even have a opposition in the house PNM love we and things nice :D :D :D :D

Sounds like all the UNC hoping for is opposition. Their mantra is forget our past misdeeds and vote for us anyway. Im voting for change, and I will not put men I perceive to be corrupt back into power.

[Huma]

Bring up the dishonest and unethical actions of one party, and its supporters will bring up dishonest and unethical actions of a next.

Never will you see a supporter admit that their party engages in wrongdoing, and really contemplate possibilities beyond "...till ah dead."

That is the situation we in now, so doh expect anything even approaching reasonable discussion in this place.

See the number of responses to this thread as an indicator of the situation we're in in terms of maturity within the electorate:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=445 (http://www.ttonline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=445)

[just1fix]

Bring up the dishonest and unethical actions of one party, and its supporters will bring up dishonest and unethical actions of a next.

Never will you see a supporter admit that their party engages in wrongdoing, and really contemplate possibilities beyond "...till ah dead."

That is the situation we in now, so doh expect anything even approaching reasonable discussion in this place.

See the number of responses to this thread as an indicator of the situation we're in in terms of maturity within the electorate:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=445 (http://www.ttonline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=445)

You're wrong HUMA. That sort of statement stifles all discussion on the seriousness of ethical breaches committed by various parties. If you're trying to equate dishonest and unethical behaviour by party, nothing in the PNM or COP can compare to what has obtained in the UNC over the last 10 years. Compare the gravity and seriousness of the breaches committed by the UNC administration or its leaders and you will quickly find that you have nothing to compare against it to in the other parties.

[just1fix]

As a matter of fact there are many issues in this country that people just don't care about, Christmas coming, Carnival also so we will deal with all that when the fete done, in the meantime 5 more for the PNM so what lets all make sure it don't even have a opposition in the house PNM love we and things nice :D :D :D :D

MG, UNC does not have a divine entitlement to my vote based on the fact that they consider Basdeo Panday their demigod. This whole issue of splitting votes has at its core an unstated UNC assumption that the votes belonged to them in the first place. Lets get this straight, parties need to earn the vote of citizens who vote on issues and use logic and commonsense. That is why the support the UNC got in prior elections has evaporated. They have lost the trust and confidence of those of us who placed our faith in them to provide good governance.

So its not 5 more for PNM. Its 5 more people who have decided that good governance comes as a result of people standing up to the bullying and fearmongering the UNC has propagated, and voting according to their conscience for a party which they expect will provide good governance and is not completely tainted as the UNC is.

[slick]

Dishonest and unethical = COP

Example of COP lies: There is a COP e-mail claiming that NAR won the 1986 general elections with 125,000 votes.

Truth/FACT: NAR won the 1986 general elections by getting more than 375,000 votes .

Population Size 1 196 000
Registered Voters 882 029
Total Votes
577 300

Vote/Registered Voter
65.5%

Spoilt Ballots
0.7%


http://www.binghamton.edu/cdp/era/elect ... 86par.html (http://www.binghamton.edu/cdp/era/elections/tri86par.html)

The 1986 election was remarkable, for both voter participation and results. In the highest voter turnout (63 percent) in twenty years, the NAR captured 67 percent of the vote and won a stunning 33 out of the 36 seats in the House of Representatives

http://www.country-studies.com/caribbea ... amics.html (http://www.country-studies.com/caribbean-islands/trinidad-and-tobago---political-dynamics.html)

that 125,000 is a lie

Put your X by the rising sun.

[cm103]

So the amount of votes they won by 20 years ago was wrong so thats a big issue now?

Yeah yuh should run all of them out the country then.... :roll:

Yuh sounding like Light now partna...

[just1fix]

Dishonest and unethical = COP

Example of COP lies: There is a COP e-mail claiming that NAR won the 1986 general elections with 125,000 votes.

Truth/FACT: NAR won the 1986 general elections by getting more than 375,000 votes .
[/b]

You have got to be kidding. You would compare this trivial issue to serious issues like the Piarco Airport Scandal? Next thing you will be telling me that we should not vote for COP because Dookeran does not wash his hands after using the toilet.

[slick]

Using lies and deceit on the campaign trail just proves that COP has no integrity.

All the time people saying COP is about new politics and integrity.

After the big crowd UNC-A pull in Mid Centre Mall, all that new politics and integrity went out the window, along with the COP's day-dream of winning 41 seats :lol: :lol: :lol:

[just1fix]

Using lies and deceit on the campaign trail just proves that COP has no integrity.

All the time people saying COP is about new politics and integrity.

After the big crowd UNC-A pull in Mid Centre Mall, all that new politics and integrity went out the window, along with the COP's day-dream of winning 41 seats :lol: :lol: :lol:

So you think this is demonstrates what? That the COP has less integrity than the UNC? You are equating provision of incorrect statistics to allegations that bribes were paid to a sitting PM and his wife? I suppose your next step is to equate murder to breaking traffic lights?

So lets get back to the real issue. On the balance of things do you believe that the UNC leadership of Basdeo Panday and Jack Warner possess the traits of integrity and honest at a level which is higher than Winston Dookeran. Please answer this question.

As a side note. If you are going to bring up trivial issues of incorrect information here's some for you
1) UNC Claim on thursday night that the Piarco airport is the best in the western hemisphere.
2)The UNC-A would bring crime under control in 30 days. (Remember when Panday threw up his hands when he was in office and said he could not deal with it?)

[cm103]

Using lies and deceit on the campaign trail just proves that COP has no integrity.

All the time people saying COP is about new politics and integrity.

After the big crowd UNC-A pull in Mid Centre Mall, all that new politics and integrity went out the window, along with the COP's day-dream of winning 41 seats :lol: :lol: :lol:

This sounding a lot like the rantings of Light here....allyuh related?

But big and serious...lies....deceit? Like what? Having meetings with foreign dignitaries that never happened? How about bringing back the man that brought about your downfall from government to score some cheap nostalgia points.

Panday have to beg for this now as this is the only way he eh go get tie up with his legal matters

[skl]

LOL slick you does get vex with emails claiming to enhance your libido too ?

really a OFFICIAL COP email ?

prob just some dumb chain letter . if such a letter exists. I notice you eh post the letter .

[slick]

If allyuh want to talk about Dookeran and integrity do a little research on Summit Finance and see what you come up with.
Dookeran has no integrity, only lies and deceit.

[skl]

If allyuh want to talk about Dookeran and integrity do a little research on Summit Finance and see what you come up with.
Dookeran has no integrity, only lies and deceit.


why it is UNCites does always say do some research on Summit finance....BUT NEVER tell me anything about it ?

you know how long it take me to drag out of MAcco that Summit finance was some kinda Savings and Loan company ?

YOU right here right now, speak nah.

[just1fix]

If allyuh want to talk about Dookeran and integrity do a little research on Summit Finance and see what you come up with.
Dookeran has no integrity, only lies and deceit.

Since you did the research already why don't you tell us how bad Dookeran is. You can start with the following:
1) How much bribe he take.
2) How much court case he involved in.
3) How much people he alienated and lied to, including calling names like pancake face, jackass, neemakharam etc.
4) How much declaration forms he fail to file with the Integrity commission.
5) How much omissions of assets he make on any forms he did file.
6) How many people he call psuedo racist and then loss in court on libel charges.
7) How many visits he make to south africa to recruit a global hero for human rights for his petty political campaign.
8) How many times he went back on his word when he said he wanted to bow out of politics.
9) How many times he was in jail and lie about the state of his heart and how he could die any minute. Then he jumping up in Germany and fighting an election.

[sam48]

Corruption is a fact of life in every govt. anywhere on this planet.
Any one who tries to deny this is himself dishonest.
As for measuring the levels of corruption of the different parties and its politicians,
any reasonable,sane,openminded human being who purports to be aware of such things must judge by the levels of corruption against the levels of performance of the respective govts and then compare.
On this basis, if we are looking for the worst offender the PNM wins by far and it is not only because they have governed the longest, it is because their list of offenses is just too long.
Having said that, it is my belief that ALL allegations of corruption should be investigated and the perps should face the courts and be punished if found guilty with no exception.

[vaio]

If allyuh want to talk about Dookeran and integrity do a little research on Summit Finance and see what you come up with.
Dookeran has no integrity, only lies and deceit.

Since you did the research already why don't you tell us how bad Dookeran is. You can start with the following:
1) How much bribe he take.
2) How much court case he involved in.
3) How much people he alienated and lied to, including calling names like pancake face, jackass, neemakharam etc.
4) How much declaration forms he fail to file with the Integrity commission.
5) How much omissions of assets he make on any forms he did file.
6) How many people he call psuedo racist and then loss in court on libel charges.
7) How many visits he make to south africa to recruit a global hero for human rights for his petty political campaign.
8) How many times he went back on his word when he said he wanted to bow out of politics.
9) How many times he was in jail and lie about the state of his heart and how he could die any minute. Then he jumping up in Germany and fighting an election.


Dooks is such a bad man...Bas is a saint...!!

[Somebody007]

vaio, I just sent you an email. I thought you got it already.

[nikkidan]

Corruption is a fact of life in every govt. anywhere on this planet.
Any one who tries to deny this is himself dishonest.
As for measuring the levels of corruption of the different parties and its politicians,
any reasonable,sane,openminded human being who purports to be aware of such things must judge by the levels of corruption against the levels of performance of the respective govts and then compare.
On this basis, if we are looking for the worst offender the PNM wins by far and it is not only because they have governed the longest, it is because their list of offenses is just too long.
Having said that, it is my belief that ALL allegations of corruption should be investigated and the perps should face the courts and be punished if found guilty with no exception.


thank you.

[vaio]

vaio, I just sent you an email. I thought you got it already.


nope :?