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dreamer
05-21-2009, 02:07 AM
any gays/lesbians on here? what do u think about the current views on homosexuality in trinidad and tobago?

ebony02
05-21-2009, 06:44 AM
Excellent thread but given the disdain for gay men and women on these forums, I highly doubt anyone will respond. And I will be the first to say that I won't be surprised if there are closet gay men and women on this forum who are living in denial. I look forward to seeing where this thread leads us.

sacky
05-21-2009, 09:19 AM
are you saying by choosing to keep their sexual preference private, is being in denial :o :o :o

Redman
05-21-2009, 09:25 AM
Whether we like it or not we are a society which was started with a religion being THE political force initially and then the allegiance to God and queen was the thing.

As we move out of that era our foundation values are changing. Im a Catholic, happily- with a healthy respect and acceptance for other peoples beliefs- reflective of most of my cohort regardless of their primary religion.

So Tdad will grow out of the dogmatic beliefs which might include anti homosexual opinions. without that anchor as a people our views will move towards a more liberal approach.

Later

ebony02
05-21-2009, 10:14 AM
Sacky, I am saying if you know who and what you are about, why hide it? Its usually done out of fear and in some instances, denial.

dreamer
05-21-2009, 11:58 AM
Sacky, I am saying if you know who and what you are about, why hide it? Its usually done out of fear and in some instances, denial.

i agree with you that fear is usually the main thing....because of our anti-homosexual society. who wants to be discriminated against by their family, co-workers, friends etc?

Huma
05-21-2009, 12:01 PM
Keep this thread on topic, please.

ebony02
05-21-2009, 12:05 PM
My point exactly Dreamer. And as for you Humes/Huma, can you please specify HOW this thread has gone off topic so we know what not to discuss? Much appreciated.

Chicabonita
05-21-2009, 12:11 PM
Ebony, it was Salt and me who made a couple of offtopic messages that Huma deleted. He probably forgot to mention that.

Going back to the topic, I agree fear is probably the biggest factor and acceptance.

Huma
05-21-2009, 12:11 PM
The offending poster will know, as her post and the reply to it have both been removed.

For everyone else, this thread is meant for gays and lesbians to discuss the topic at hand. That doesn't mean no one else can comment, but please keep the other large thread in mind before posting something that might be redundant.

We will try to keep this thread less homophobic than the other one so gays and lesbians can feel a bit more welcome to share their thoughts.

dreamer
05-21-2009, 12:19 PM
also i agree with redman, i can see t&t moving towards a more liberal approach....not saying it will come in the blink of an eye but it'll come nevertheless, and besides its still better than in some other countries where homosexuality can give you a death penalty. but there's still a law against homosexuality in this country even tho its not acted upon...it ought to be removed if we want to move forward with the world. it also goes against what we say in our national anthem, 'forged from the love of liberty,' liberty perhaps for certain people....

sylvestter
05-21-2009, 12:22 PM
i don't see how the views of 'gays/lesbians' will differ fundamentally from the views of all the other rational thinking people on this forum who are not 'gays/lesbians'.

is this thread intended to 'out' these 'gays/lesbians'?

Angie
05-21-2009, 12:26 PM
The offending poster will know, as her post and the reply to it have both been removed.

For everyone else, this thread is meant for gays and lesbians to discuss the topic at hand. That doesn't mean no one else can comment, but please keep the other large thread in mind before posting something that might be redundant.

We will try to keep this thread less homophobic than the other one so gays and lesbians can feel a bit more welcome to share their thoughts.


So which one are you Gay or Lesbian :o

sylvestter
05-21-2009, 12:27 PM
The offending poster will know, as her post and the reply to it have both been removed.

For everyone else, this thread is meant for gays and lesbians to discuss the topic at hand. That doesn't mean no one else can comment, but please keep the other large thread in mind before posting something that might be redundant.

We will try to keep this thread less homophobic than the other one so gays and lesbians can feel a bit more welcome to share their thoughts.


So which one are you Gay or Lesbian :oprecisely my point.
there is no way this thread can be discussed in a serious manner here.

Angie
05-21-2009, 12:36 PM
Honestly, what do you all think will be discussed here that isn't or wasn't discussed in the other thread? Opinions were given for and against this topic already ... won't it be best to merge the two threads?

Huma
05-21-2009, 01:16 PM
there is no way this thread can be discussed in a serious manner here.

I addressed that specifically in my earlier post. The homophobic threads have primarily comprised homophobic vitriol and indirect abuse. Gays who enter the threads are instantly on the defensive, and respond angrily to the established tone.

A more neutral thread for them to air their opinions makes sense. We might see stuff we haven't seen in the past.

As for their identities, that's simple enough as well. At least 3 while I've been here I've seen people sign up specifically to discuss the issue. It happened right there in the last thread. We also have a few active posters who are gay, and no doubt some gay lurkers who might finally post something in response to this thread.

Also, I'm not going to assume that my liberal perspective is the same as a gay man or woman's. That's hubris and kinda patronizing as well.

ebony02
05-21-2009, 01:31 PM
Dreamer, if you don't mind me asking, are you by chance a lesbian living in Trinidad or a supporter of gay rights? :)

dreamer
05-21-2009, 01:38 PM
i am a lesbian living in trinidad, but not openly...

Huma
05-21-2009, 02:02 PM
dreamer, I doh envy you nuh.

I support your cause, but I don't think it will get anywhere while yall remain closeted. The reason some people can spew the kinda unbridled venom and ignorance they do about gays is because yall are still a hidden group, a faceless boogeyman on which people can paint whatever kinda scary face they want. The only really out gays are the ones who make a spectacle of their lifestyle.

If some of the more high-profile gays in Trinidad were to come out and really humanize the group, a lot of people would reconsider their stance. I think a lot of people who claim to be homophobic are really fence-sitting bandwagonners who afraid to go against the crowd.

What do you think about coming out and outing? Is it something yall discuss among yourselves?

dreamer
05-21-2009, 02:17 PM
im not in any group or anything like that. and yeah i agree with u about people being afraid to go against the crowd. seems most times if people are talking about the issue, and a straight person seem to be in support of gays/lesbians...then they are thought to be gay/lesbian themselves. ive seen few people be open about their homosexuality and the consequences of it arent pretty....they are constantly being discriminated against...not everyone is willing to risk that, im not. i think its why its still a 'hidden group'.

Angie
05-21-2009, 02:21 PM
Dreamer, I believe that you all should form an Organization that will recognize your rights, do whatever is necessay to enforce and to protect those rights as Gays and Lesbians. Being closeted is not going to help, if anything it will hurt as it does nothing to allay the fears of homophobics.

I think it is a good move on behalf of the Gov't to remove the laws as I don't believe someone's sexual orientation which is a fundamental right to choose is a right that should be scrutinized and controlled by anyone.

ebony02
05-21-2009, 02:34 PM
Huma, you're already casting gay Trinidadians as "other" by referencing them as "yall" and that's the problem right there. Gay Trinidadians are no different from heterosexual Trinidadians. It is not an issue facing just gay Trinidadians but ALL Trinidadians. As for your suggestion of "high profile gays" in Trinidad coming out, if they haven't come out, who are you to suggest they are gay?

shield_2006
05-21-2009, 02:43 PM
Allyuh mad oui-is Trinidad allyu talkin bout. I know two lesbian couples who go bout they business quite comfortably without subjecting themselves to the glare of public scrutiny.

Among the sophisticated crowd it might even be alright to say who you are-BUT-truth be told the larger society not so at all and you jes looking for pressure if you come out for them.

One of the benefits of living in a big country is a certain anonymity-not so here. I remember the fella from south who had the sex change operation-they persecute da man all in the Bomb and Mirror.

Huma
05-21-2009, 02:45 PM
Huma, you're already casting gay Trinidadians as "other" by referencing them as "yall" and that's the problem right there. Gay Trinidadians are no different from heterosexual Trinidadians. It is not an issue facing just gay Trinidadians but ALL Trinidadians. As for your suggestion of "high profile gays" in Trinidad coming out, if they haven't come out, who are you to suggest they are gay?


The problem doesn't stem from acknowledging differences. It stems from not being able to tolerate differences. Gays and heterosexuals are different in a sexual context, which is what I'm referring to. Gays are a group, even if they're a group within a group.

Homophobia affects everyone, just as slavery affected everyone, but the solution I'm suggesting starts with gays. It's an initiative they have to take.

There are high-profile gays who don't discuss their sexuality openly but don't hide their sexuality in certain situations. I'm not suggesting they're gay...I'm stating it as fact. Their openness can make a big difference in this discourse.

dreamer
05-21-2009, 02:59 PM
Allyuh mad oui-is Trinidad allyu talkin bout. I know two lesbian couples who go bout they business quite comfortably without subjecting themselves to the glare of public scrutiny.

Among the sophisticated crowd it might even be alright to say who you are-BUT-truth be told the larger society not so at all and you jes looking for pressure if you come out for them.

One of the benefits of living in a big country is a certain anonymity-not so here. I remember the fella from south who had the sex change operation-they persecute da man all in the Bomb and Mirror.


lol i have to agree with this one.

sylvestter
05-21-2009, 03:10 PM
while we live in a conservative society, i think there is a high capacity for tolerance

i think there ARE advocacy organizations, but i'm not sure how vocal they are.

i have quite a few gay and lesbian friends, and am really quite indifferent to the whole thing. i've limed and partied with them at the local gay clubs and gay-friendly bars, and honestly had a good time.

i think 'outing' is a sensitive issue - people have family concerns etc. someone was explaining to me that there are various levels of 'pride', and some people just don't feel the need to share the fact that they are gay because it's just not relevant to anyone else.

i think that sodomy should be decriminalized in principle, but is it really enforced? does it make a substantial difference other than on paper? perhaps yes, on the whole question of rights.

i think the main issue concerning homosexuality in t&t is hiv quite frankly, because unfortunately many people do NOT engage in safe sex, and it appears that this is where the focus lies, rather than fight for rights etc.

depending on your social circles, you might encounter tonnes of gay people on a daily basis. the problem occurs when you separate them into a 'them' and 'us' and 'you'll'.

there are all sorts of labels to define human sexuality - gay, lesbian, bisexual, transexual, now there's pansexual, but who cares really?

people are people, and i don't get what everyone has to be so judgmental.

dancerboy
05-21-2009, 03:45 PM
there is no way this thread can be discussed in a serious manner here.

I addressed that specifically in my earlier post. The homophobic threads have primarily comprised homophobic vitriol and indirect abuse. Gays who enter the threads are instantly on the defensive, and respond angrily to the established tone.

A more neutral thread for them to air their opinions makes sense. We might see stuff we haven't seen in the past.

As for their identities, that's simple enough as well. At least 3 while I've been here I've seen people sign up specifically to discuss the issue. It happened right there in the last thread. We also have a few active posters who are gay, and no doubt some gay lurkers who might finally post something in response to this thread.

Also, I'm not going to assume that my liberal perspective is the same as a gay man or woman's. That's hubris and kinda patronizing as well.

HUMA my friend, your comment that "Gays who enter the threads are instantly on the defensive, and respond angrily to the established tone", reminds me of that UNCLE TOM supreme court justice CLARENCE THOMAS, who recuses himself every time cases involving black issues, such as affirmative action comes before the court.


DANCERBOY

ebony02
05-21-2009, 03:56 PM
Oh boy.

Mr Majik
05-21-2009, 04:39 PM
any gays/lesbians on here? what do u think about the current views on homosexuality in trinidad and tobago?
With all respect to you, I believe this question is a non starter. Do you really believe any gay/lesbian Trini would accept the current views on homosexuality in T&T's larger society?
I think you all would be on the same page on that issue.

I am a big supporter of gay rights, and the repealing of laws which categorise homosexuality as criminal. I am not of the common belief that you chose your lifestyle. In fact, I don't see it as a lifestyle, per se.
You may have the same lifestyle as me, yet not participate in heterosexual sex. In the same vein, I have a different lifestyle than most heterosexuals.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, before we can get beyond the fears and hate, we must first stop looking at homosexuality as a "lifestyle."

sacky
05-21-2009, 04:47 PM
trinidad is much more gay friendly ,than even i sometime gave it credit for.

Huma
05-21-2009, 04:49 PM
I think you all would be on the same page on that issue.


Used to think so myself, but I've seen a lot of discussions like this one on other forums, and while most homosexuals want the same thing, not all are willing to fight for it. dreamer's response to shield's last post is a perfect example. She's laughing and agreeing that she should remain closeted while I've seen others who'd rage against that kinda thinking.

shield_2006
05-21-2009, 05:34 PM
trinidad is much more gay friendly ,than even i sometime gave it credit for.

Yeah-where-Movie Town-not down town and everybody does stand up and laugh at the overt homos. People hardly focus on the lesbians. I do not see many behaving like men in an overt way-but-the men-who want to be women-well dem is another story.

Ah telling allyuh that Trinidad could be as bad as Jamaica and it have some video on u tube about the experiences of homos in JA-u should check it out.

[youtube:ndoqs814]CVq3TRYAXiw[/youtube:ndoqs814]

mammadon
05-21-2009, 10:09 PM
any gays/lesbians on here? what do u think about the current views on homosexuality in trinidad and tobago?

Trinidad is a conservative society, where religious morals form the moral sensibilities of day to day society. We ent the liberal West. For this reason, I don't think homophobia would go away anytime soon.

I reckon it would require a major shift in the thinking of the average Trinbagonian, which is not something easily done.

I don't have a major issue with gay people; dey ent preventing me from living my life.

dreamer
05-21-2009, 10:15 PM
Trinidad is a conservative society, where religious morals form the moral sensibilities of day to day society. We ent the liberal West. For this reason, I don't think homophobia would go away anytime soon.

ha im also atheist lol...but thats another story...

alieninthecaribbean
05-22-2009, 10:32 AM
I am more than willing to say I am a happy and completely fulfilled lesbian woman in a great committed 12 year relationship, (13 years in October this year). I don't have to TOOT my horn but since coming out at 15, I have NEVER hid who I am. Not everyone is that brave nor do I expect them to be.

One lesbian who was out of the closet was gang raped by a group of ignorant thugs. When she reported it to the police and they learned she was gay, they told her,
"It GOOD for you! That should set you straight!"

When she tried to complain, her life was threatened.
She sought assylum in Canada and got it.

What do I think of the current situation in our country with regards to equal rights. I think it SUCKS! The problem is that people are UNABLE TO HAVE OBJECTIVE DIAOLOGUE on the matter. They allow personal and religious opinion to cloud the issue which is CIVIL and LEGAL only. Like I said in a previous post in the Legal Forum,

Idolatry also offends certain religious beliefs. In fact in many it is far more frequently and violently condemned in many people's religious texts. Does this mean we must now legislate against the hundreds of thousands of that utilise murthis, lingams and status in worship? Some religious books condemn witchcraft and divination. Should followers of pagan or new age religions or those who read Tarot cards be prosecuted by civil law? Should Yessina Adams be arrested? The answer is of course not! Civil laws in a multi-cultural, multi-religious society must be based on social and civil criteria, not the religious biases of one or two sectors of society.

So it is NOT about whether your interpretation of your holy book says it is a sin. No one is forcing you to change your beliefs or accept gay people into your place of worship or home or even be gay yourself. No one is forcing you to teach your children to believe being gay is okay. I grew up in an Evangelical Chrisitan faith where children were constantly told that Hindus, Muslim ANYONE who did not worship as we did are condemned by God and going to hell BUT we were STILL expected to go to school, work etc among people of different religions and treat ALL with human dignity and civility.

In most religious traditions there is a universal premise of treating all as you would like to be treated yourself. Tolerance is also one of our nation’s watch words.

People need to REMEMBER that.

alieninthecaribbean
05-22-2009, 10:59 AM
As for gay people coming out of the closet, here is what I have to say on the matter.

The BIGGEST obstacle to attaining equal protection and civil rights is secrecy and hiding. Understandably, if you live in a rural area or impoverished, violent urban area where the dancehall culture has infiltrated, I would NOT advise you to come out.

However what KILLS me are the gay men who MARRY straight women to hide who they are. What kills me are the people who are in a far more protected and influential position and EVERYONE KNOWS they are gay and these people STILL think they are fooling the public. I'll tell you what this does:
* It communicates to everyone that your sexuality is INDEED something to be ashamed of
* It continues to make it easier for homophobes to dehumanise us because people are unable to truly PUT A HUMAN FACE to those they blindly hate. Racist segregation works in the same manner.

I will never forget an episode of Oprah when Ellen DeGenerous came out. A religious audience member who tried to express her condemnation, could NOT look at this friendly, amiable, comedienne in the eye and say the hateful things she wanted to say. She broke down crying instead.
* It hurts those you lie to and it hurts you in the long run. You will ALWAYS have to live with the knowledge that the people who love and accept you are loving and accepting an illusion.

I don't walk down Frederick Street wearing a rainbow boa and a tee shirt that says, "PROUD DYKE" on it. However, I have NEVER hidden my relationship status when people ask me outright.

Many heterosexuals complain,

"Why can't you gay people keep it private. Why must you FLAUNT it in our face?"

Well what many of you heterosexuals do not realize is that you PRY constantly without realising it. STOP ASKING, "Are you married? No? Why not?", "Can I set you up with this nice guy I know?", "When are you going to get married?", "Who is that woman I see you with all the time?". You take for granted all the social situations where a person's sexuality is inadvertently put on display. You can afford to take those situations for granted. We can't.

All my workmates know me and my partner and our families know as well. In fact my partner did the traditional thing of meeting my mom and telling her of her intentions.

You don't HAVE to be openly gay. Just be HONESTLY gay. First of all, honest with YOURSELF. There is no greater testimony to the world than a straight person, even one who never liked gay people who can say:

"Well, I never liked gay people. I still think it is a sin in my religion BUT, I have a co-worker who is gay and he is the NICEST person I have ever met. I cannot help but respect him."

This is how acceptance happens.

dreamer
05-22-2009, 11:20 AM
wow that was a great post, thanks alot for sharing.
i cannot imagine myself ever coming out to my family....i know for a fact that they will not be tolerant of it. and i still live at home with them so i do not think its a good idea for me....at least not right now. i'm more likely to be kicked out rather than be accepted for who i am.
you're 100% right about the religion thing. we live in a democratic society...not a theocracy. church and state should be completely separate. im an honest hard working citizen, never committed a felony etc.....i ought to have the same equal rights as anyone else. why persecute me bcoz of my sexual preference? i dont see what that has to do with anyone else. its just as stupid as persecuting someone for their preference of colour, or beer, or music.

alieninthecaribbean
05-22-2009, 01:13 PM
Dreamer, my heart goes out to you.

I know it is hard for you and perhaps lonely too. While there are gay people in our country and a feting scene and also a subculture of exploitative sex and bacchanal, there is no "gay community". By that I mean, there are no social, spiritual, community and political support for gay adults, gay teens and our family and friends.

Not that many gay people have not tried, including myself. I was once part of a gay activist group. But it was marred by interpersonal sparring, power struggles and worst of all, the inability of the people involved to be mature, altruistic and self-sacrificing enough to put aside their romantic interests for the better good of all.

Eventually I realised (1) I needed to work on MYSELF before I could attempt to help others and (2) you cannot help others when they are too chicken to come out and do not want to help themselves and choose unselfish, responsible and ethical behaviour.

If I became a multi-millionaire now Dreamer, I know one of the first things I would do is have a holistic place for gay teens and young adults to go to when they are cast out and abused. It will provide housing, education, employment and counselling and seek to also work with their parents as well to foster understanding. MOST IMPORTANTLY, they will know they will not be taken advantage of sexually in ANY WAY.

The reason this is close to my heart, is because I had to deal with being cast out at an early age. Fortunately, I had enough spunk and just enough support to fend for myself and make a success of my life. Not all gay teens are that lucky.

I would recommend becoming fianancially independent and/or establishing an alternative support system of friends and/or relatives who are understanding and tolerant BEFORE telling your parents. Should the worse happen, as it did with me and you are threatened and kicked out, you at least have a safety net.

Coming out is like ripping off a sticky bandage that covers a wound that needs fresh air to heal.

You can be brave, grit your teeth, rip it off quickly, deal with the excutiating pain in one go. The faster it's done, the faster it will subside OR you can peel it off in an agonizingly slow manner, taking the pain, little at a time. It is your choice.

But it MUST come off, or that wound will NEVER heal properly and you will never feel whole.

My sincerest hope for you is that youcan do it and I wish you best of luck with that. ;)

dreamer
05-22-2009, 02:11 PM
i much appreciate your advice, thanks.

shield_2006
05-22-2009, 02:13 PM
You can be brave, grit your teeth, rip it off quickly, deal with the excruciating pain in one go.

Great advice ent? Simple right?

medic2
05-22-2009, 11:19 PM
You can be brave, grit your teeth, rip it off quickly, deal with the excruciating pain in one go.

Great advice ent? Simple right?

[smilie=beach.gif] May not be simple or easy, but it is what we often have to do, even when there is a fear of rejection and even violence. My own coming out to my family was made easier because my first partner's family knew and accepted him as a gay man. They accepted me as part of their family without question, and this was Trinidad almost twenty years ago. I was very lucky in this regard because I have met many gays and lesbians who have not been as lucky.
I think that while there is still a lot of homophobia in Trinidad and Tobago, there are also many people, including parents, who have become more tolerant and open-minded, and who really don't think it's such a big deal anymore. Certainly decriminalization is long overdue.

ebony02
05-23-2009, 08:22 AM
I absolutely LOVE this thread! Its so awesome hearing your stories as gay Trinidadians. I am all for gay rights, respect and equality and please share with us ways we can help in fighting for the cause in Trinidad. I love you all, and dreamer, you are in my prayers dear. Remember, the only constant is change; nothing lasts forever, and I hope that when you do find the strength to come out, it will be for the better. (((HUGS)))

dreamer
05-23-2009, 05:30 PM
thanks so much for your support ebony02 :) . i cant speak for all the gay trinbagonians, but the most im able to do...with my current situation is to speak against the discrimination. perhaps it helps? i dont know. and honestly i'd feel like a hypocrite telling people to fight for the cause when i can't even come out. but as u say nothing last forever...when i leave home im gonna let my family know....perhaps it will change their perspective on the whole thing...hopefully...

Chicabonita
05-23-2009, 08:10 PM
I am all for tolerance on this issue, met many gays and they were all great, wonderful people. Having said that, I am a bit bothered when some of them expect acceptance from me about their lifestyle. I could understand tolerance which for me means, that I think they have the right to do whatever they want with their personal lives even though I may disagree but when the concept is pushed through the school system (as an example, trying to teach 5 years old about gays and lesbians) then I have a problem with that since I believe as a parent that's my responsibility. Tolerance and acceptance are two different things in my view.

ebony02
05-23-2009, 09:10 PM
Chica, how exactly are schools 'pushing the concept of gays and lesbians'? And is teaching (exposing) children to the existence of that lifestyle forcing them to accept it? In my opinion, you can only tolerate it if you accept it exists. Perhaps you confuse acceptance with condoning.

Chicabonita
05-23-2009, 09:26 PM
Chica, how exactly are schools 'pushing the concept of gays and lesbians'?

By introducing as part of the curriculum material that makes homosexual lifestyle natural and acceptable and parents have no rights to remove their kids from these classes that are being taught to kids as young as five (California) Ridiculous.


And is teaching (exposing) children to the existence of that lifestyle forcing them to accept it?

If is being taught AT SCHOOL, by someone in AUTHORITY means the kids will believe these things to be okay and acceptable. I do not think it is the job of any school to teach MY OWN CHILDREN what is acceptable and what is not, particularly with regards to sexual orientation. That's MY job as a parent.

Falcon
05-24-2009, 11:31 AM
speak yuh mind Chica, these people feel they MUST make us think like them else is fire....

who dont agree with same sex lifestyles free to say so....and teach they chirren so.....

let the liberal louts (none on the forum yet) keep out people business.

Huma
05-24-2009, 12:36 PM
From everything I've read about Senate Bill 777, it doesn't seem fair or in accordance with other practices in the education system. Children should just be given facts about such contentious issues.

That said, what's a liberal lout, exactly?

I'm liberal, agnostic, and a supporter of many liberal initiatives including the secular, progressive, tolerant and rational approach to social development.

When do I become a lout?

Huma
05-24-2009, 12:54 PM
Also, when do dreamer and alieninthecaribbean become the sick freaks and disgusting perverts that were so vocally condemned in the other thread?

Now that we see the abhorrent abomination against God in the face of a strong-willed, mature, intelligent woman and another young woman who confesses she lives her life in fear...how come nobody have the moral conviction to call them out as depraved reprobates who deserve to be killed?


alieninthecaribbean and dreamer...how do you feel when you see others indirectly describe you like that?

Parvati
05-24-2009, 01:02 PM
From what I see people are using extreme examples to fuel their worries.
Suddenly gay couples will be making out everywhere, one poster talking about people wanting to rape him, now we are speculating that children might be taught that it is ok to be gay.

The two women who posted here aren't asking for any of that, just safety and respect.

sacky
05-24-2009, 03:57 PM
alien did you come out in trinidad :o :o :o

ttvex
05-24-2009, 08:50 PM
But what's wrong if children are taught that gay people exist and it is not a bad thing? It's not a religious teaching, it's more of a 'don't throw stones at him if he tells you he is gay' teaching. I don't think that's wrong. I think it's teaching them to be tolerant of others.
I feel for you dreamer. I vowed never to come out to my parents, but was outed by a 'friend'. It didn't go to well but I am so glad it happened while I was still at home. At least that way I could show my parents that nothing had changed. I was the same person I was before I told them. The only difference was that now they knew. It isn't easy. Especially with religious parents.
I'm now a qualified doctor, in a stable relationship of 4 years and overall I think things worked out. My parents still do dont condone my lifestyle but I think they've learned to tolerate it. And that's all we can ask really, isn't it?

sylvestter
05-24-2009, 11:41 PM
But what's wrong if children are taught that gay people exist and it is not a bad thing? It's not a religious teaching, it's more of a 'don't throw stones at him if he tells you he is gay' teaching. I don't think that's wrong. I think it's teaching them to be tolerant of others.
I feel for you dreamer. I vowed never to come out to my parents, but was outed by a 'friend'. It didn't go to well but I am so glad it happened while I was still at home. At least that way I could show my parents that nothing had changed. I was the same person I was before I told them. The only difference was that now they knew. It isn't easy. Especially with religious parents.
I'm now a qualified doctor, in a stable relationship of 4 years and overall I think things worked out. My parents still do dont condone my lifestyle but I think they've learned to tolerate it. And that's all we can ask really, isn't it?at what age did this happen ttvex?

letric
05-25-2009, 04:51 AM
I have nothing against homsexuals, or lesbians, some of my best friends are sexually different, with alternative life styles, indeed, some are also commercial sex workers. I find them to be honest, sincere, with a strong sense of loyalty which to me are of paramount importance. Of course, should any of them (which I doubt) approach me with a proposal not part of my sexual make-up, obviously I would be offended. Ultimately, we are all living in a diverse world, and if they are happy in their way of life, believe they should be left alone with their problems if they think of them as such.

dancerboy
05-25-2009, 12:20 PM
But what's wrong if children are taught that gay people exist and it is not a bad thing? It's not a religious teaching, it's more of a 'don't throw stones at him if he tells you he is gay' teaching. I don't think that's wrong. I think it's teaching them to be tolerant of others.
I feel for you dreamer. I vowed never to come out to my parents, but was outed by a 'friend'. It didn't go to well but I am so glad it happened while I was still at home. At least that way I could show my parents that nothing had changed. I was the same person I was before I told them. The only difference was that now they knew. It isn't easy. Especially with religious parents.
I'm now a qualified doctor, in a stable relationship of 4 years and overall I think things worked out. My parents still do dont condone my lifestyle but I think they've learned to tolerate it. And that's all we can ask really, isn't it?

Let me guess. You must be a proctologist,or a gynaecologist.

DANCERBOY

Falcon
05-25-2009, 12:30 PM
..how come nobody have the moral conviction to call them out as depraved reprobates who deserve to be killed?

And in your other post above, you seemed to associate 'progressive' and 'tolerant', when in fact they are mutually exclusive in this case.

No one deserves to be killed for being gay, are you crazy Huma? And why do you think you got the right to call them depraved reprobates? Certainly not on my behalf! Stop trying to say something from other people's voices. If you feel so, say so.

This is quite apart from loving everyone and wanting everyone to understand the consequences of their actions.....I find you real funny in these 2 posts....

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 01:21 PM
.how come nobody have the moral conviction to call them out as depraved reprobates who deserve to be killed?

But what d jail is dis. :shock: Listen, just because some people do not agree or accept their lifestyle does not mean we are a bunch of haters. I say, if they want to do their own thing I have no problem at all as long as their ideas do not go into the school system and portrait this behavior as natural and acceptable because in my books it is not and whoever do not agree with my thinking, cry me a river, as a parent that's MY responsibility and as long as I live I will fight any school or idea that promotes through reading or any other school activity any sort of support toward homosexual lifestyle (like the children's book of two princes kissing). Whoever asked in this thread, what is wrong about teaching a pre-schooler about gays and lesbians, I am seriously wondering if they're thinking before posting. :|

dancerboy
05-25-2009, 01:45 PM
.how come nobody have the moral conviction to call them out as depraved reprobates who deserve to be killed?

But what d jail is dis. :shock: Listen, just because some people do not agree or accept their lifestyle does not mean we are a bunch of haters. I say, if they want to do their own thing I have no problem at all as long as their ideas do not go into the school system and portrait this behavior as natural and acceptable because in my books it is not and whoever do not agree with my thinking, cry me a river, as a parent that's MY responsibility and as long as I live I will fight any school or idea that promotes through reading or any other school activity any sort of support toward homosexual lifestyle (like the children's book of two princes kissing). Whoever asked in this thread, what is wrong about teaching a pre-schooler about gays and lesbians, I am seriously wondering if they're thinking before posting. :|

AMEN, CHICA, i do not want my grandchildren to be taught about GAYS AND LESBIANS in school. Teach them about sex, and procreation. If as some argue, that GAYS,and LEBIANS are born that way, then so be it. There is no need to teach it in schools,those who desire that lifestyle will gravitate towards it. There are lots of prominent GAYS, and LESBIANS in the public arena. It's not as though they are all underground. There is enough peer pressure on the youths, to indulge in alernative "lifestyles". There is no need to teach any more.

DANCERBOY

medic2
05-25-2009, 01:53 PM
But what d jail is dis. :shock: Listen, just because some people do not agree or accept their lifestyle does not mean we are a bunch of haters. I say, if they want to do their own thing I have no problem at all as long as their ideas do not go into the school system and portrait this behavior as natural and acceptable because in my books it is not and whoever do not agree with my thinking, cry me a river, as a parent that's MY responsibility and as long as I live I will fight any school or idea that promotes through reading or any other school activity any sort of support toward homosexual lifestyle (like the children's book of two princes kissing). Whoever asked in this thread, what is wrong about teaching a pre-schooler about gays and lesbians, I am seriously wondering if they're thinking before posting. :|

[smilie=beach.gif] It sounds at though you have your own tolerance issues to work out, never mind anything which might be taught in school. If 'this behavior' should not be portrayed as natural and acceptable, then are you implying that it could be portrayed as unnatural and unacceptable? And if so, then wouldn't that be discriminatory?

My own feeling is that it is possible to teach about alternative lifestyles without putting a moral face to it, i.e. right or wrong. All too often, our education systems (or should I say our educators?), teach not only the facts of human relations/social sciences, but also try to infuse them with a sense of right and wrong. Is there another way which doesn't pass judgement?

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 02:14 PM
[smilie=beach.gif] It sounds at though you have your own tolerance issues to work out

Your opinion. :|


If 'this behavior' should not be portrayed as natural and acceptable, then are you implying that it could be portrayed as unnatural and unacceptable? And if so, then wouldn't that be discriminatory?

You don't understand. Whatever they want to do with their private lives is their business. I am not going to interfer in that aspect in their lives, my issue is when they want to push it down my kids throat as an "alternative" lifestyle. That's NOT their job, that's MY JOB as a mother to teach according to MY own morals and conscience. :| But now, let me clarify something because it seems my words are being misinterpreted. If one day, one of my kids end up being gay I WILL feel disappointed and sad (Is there something to be happy about?). Having said that, I will still love them and be there for them regardless but they will know how I feel about the whole thing.

Falcon
05-25-2009, 02:39 PM
My own feeling is that it is possible to teach about alternative lifestyles without putting a moral face to it, i.e. right or wrong
breds, or chick, or whatever you'd prefer to be called (and thats not an insult because I have no idea of the roles in your relationship),
When some people consider alternate (alternate from 'usual' or 'normal' I presume) as immoral, then it is darn right impossible not to put a face to it.

There are people who see things around them and are too selfish to try and effect change. They call those people 'tolerant', and in recent times I've heard 'progressive' incorrectly bandied about in this direction.

First they came,

alieninthecaribbean
05-25-2009, 02:41 PM
I find it so amusing when straight people refer to my sexual orientation as a lifestyle, as if it were like choosing to take up tennis or knitting. As if I went,
"Hey, I need to find something fun and exciting to do. Let me take up lesbianism and see where that gets me!" :roll:

Referring to someone's sexual orientation as a lifestyle is simply another way to devalue and down-grade something that is far more innate and integral to their overall psychological and emotional make-up. Those who continue to do so are obviously trying to push an agenda where intolerance rules over honesty.

Tell me straight people, did you, "Take up a heterosexual lifestyle?"
Was there ever a choice presented to you where you said to yourself, "Hmmm, I can go with boys or with girls. I choose to go with the opposite sex!"
Could you easily choose NOT to go with the opposite sex and force yourself to feel not only sexually attracted to but achieve the same emotional fit with the same sex that you currently experience with those of the opposite sex?

The ONLY people who have that privilage of choice over who you they are attracted to are bisexuals. For the rest of us, we go through puberty and find ourselves AUTOMATICALLY PRE-DISPOSED to liking either girls or boys. We can choose to act on our innate attraction or not.

When I was 12 years old and all the other girls in my class were gaga over all the cute boys, I could not understand what the HELL they were getting so hot and bothered about. Meanwhile, I was getting crushes on THEM and getting mightly jealous when their attentions were now elsewhere. I was getting crushes on female teachers and celebrities.

Nobody TOLD me that there were people like me around. I had NO IDEA why I felt the way I did. When I was 13, at a slumber party over a cousin, that was the first time I heard the word "lesbian" and what it meant. I saw how scornful all the girls were as they laughed and said,
"Ewwww that's GROSS!"

My heart broke because I KNEW instantly, that word referred to me and I also knew that made me persona non grata. To better describe the feeling, imagine growing up with a birthmark and thinking nothing of it all your life until one day you learn that EVERYONE around you believes birthmarks like yours to be evil and disgusting.

My self-esteem plummetted and with it my grades, behaviour at home was out of control. I lost all sense of hope and happiness because I knew if people knew who I REALLY was, they would not love me anymore. It was only after a botched suicide attempt, I finally blurt it out to my parents. What followed were six years of all kinds of hell. When conventional psychologists did not satisfy my parents (because any respected shrink will of course say, "Nothing is wrong with your daughter. Accept her and help her to be the best lesbian she can be,") they resorted to all kinds of hokey religious therapies and extreme mental and emotional pressure until I was forced to leave home or subject myself to the constant physical, emotional abuse and control. SIX YEARS of rayers, therapy, beatings, punishment, grounding, peer pressure, threats could not change me from gay to straight. By 19, I knew it even if my parents did not.


No gay teenager should have to go through that turmoil!

And who the HELL would choose that to boot! The natural inclination of ANY child or teenager is to want to FIT IN, not be an outcast.

The minute a child is old enough to learn about puberty (menstruation, wet dreams, how babies are made, respecting their bodies, first time crushes etc.) they are OLD ENOUGH to learn that some people turn out straight and others turn out gay. IT'S NOT HARD! Just say to them,

"Most people will start to develop crushes and feel attracted to the opposite sex, they are heterosexual or straight however, about 10% of people will develop crushes and attractions to both or the same sex and turn out gay, lesbian or bisexual. Many think these people are evil and dislike them. (Feel free to insert your particular religious/moral views here) However, the medical community considers them normal, capable of living happy, fulfilled lives and being exceptional parents. Regardless of what we believe, we should show understanding and tolerance. If you feel like you might be gay or lesbian come and talk to me and I will try my best to listen and understand your feelings,"

I implore you parents out there to GET OVER YOURSELVES and your qualms, you might just save a kid's life and needless stress and expense.

medic2
05-25-2009, 03:04 PM
You don't understand. Whatever they want to do with their private lives is their business. I am not going to interfer in that aspect in their lives, my issue is when they want to push it down my kids throat as an "alternative" lifestyle. That's NOT their job, that's MY JOB as a mother to teach according to MY own morals and conscience. :| But now, let me clarify something because it seems my words are being misinterpreted. If one day, one of my kids end up being gay I WILL feel disappointed and sad (Is there something to be happy about?). Having said that, I will still love them and be there for them regardless but they will know how I feel about the whole thing.


[smilie=beach.gif] With all respect, I think I do understand. I have relatives who struggle with their mixed feelings regarding gays and lesbians. On one hand they have their ingrained prejudices which were instilled by society and religion over a lifetime, and on the other they want to accept a family member who is gay. I have stopped bothering.

I don't think I have met any gay or lesbian who wishes to shove any alternative lifestyle or sexual orientation down anyone's throat, since we don't appreciate straight people trying to do the same to us.
I am sorry to hear that you will be sad and disappointed if one of your kids ends up being gay. I think there are many reasons to be happy for your child and that sexual orientation should not be a major factor. I'm thankful that my mother is happy for me.

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 03:40 PM
With all respect, I think I do understand. I have relatives who struggle with their mixed feelings regarding gays and lesbians. On one hand they have their ingrained prejudices which were instilled by society and religion over a lifetime, and on the other they want to accept a family member who is gay. I have stopped bothering.

No, it does not seem that you understand. Are you a parent by the way? The relationship between a parent and their child is profound. I love and will love my child regardless to some of his decisions. What is difficult to understand? Do I have to agree with what he/she does? No, I don't but my love for him/her will always be there. It seems to me that according to you, the only way a parent could love their son is that if they support their homosexual lifestyle and that's not so.


I don't think I have met any gay or lesbian who wishes to shove any alternative lifestyle or sexual orientation down anyone's throat, since we don't appreciate straight people trying to do the same to us.

I have met many, specially when they get upset when some part of society fights against the teachings of homosexuality at schools or other similar examples.


I am sorry to hear that you will be sad and disappointed if one of your kids ends up being gay.

Nothing to feel sorry about.


I think there are many reasons to be happy for your child and that sexual orientation should not be a major factor.

Did anyone said it should be a major factor?



I'm thankful that my mother is happy for me.[/quote]

Happy about you being gay? I DOUBT it very much. I am very sure she is happy about YOU as her son, your accomplishments, etc. Nobody is "happy" about a child being gay.

alieninthecaribbean
05-25-2009, 04:14 PM
How do we try to shove our lives down other people's throat exactly?

People forget that tolerance is about allowing people to express themselves, talk about who they are and live openly.

You cannot say, "Oh I believe all Hindus are going to hell but I am tolerant,"
Then get offended when your Hindu neighbour invites you to celebrate Divali with their family or start to complain, "Why can't those Hindus keep their idolatrous worship to themselves!" whenever you hear a puja taking place.

What many straight people who claim they are tolerant REALLY mean is,
"I won't overtly push hatred or condone violence against you just as long as you HIDE and PRETEND YOU DON'T EXIST so I don't have to see, read, watch, interact, talk about you and your life and as long as my kids don't have to see, interact, talk, ask or read anything about people like you."

That is not tolerance.
That is bullsh*t. Pardon my French

medic2
05-25-2009, 04:34 PM
With all respect, I think I do understand. I have relatives who struggle with their mixed feelings regarding gays and lesbians. On one hand they have their ingrained prejudices which were instilled by society and religion over a lifetime, and on the other they want to accept a family member who is gay. I have stopped bothering.

No, it does not seem that you understand. Are you a parent by the way? The relationship between a parent and their child is profound. I love and will love my child regardless to some of his decisions. What is difficult to understand? Do I have to agree with what he/she does? No, I don't but my love for him/her will always be there. It seems to me that according to you, the only way a parent could love their son is that if they support their homosexual lifestyle and that's not so.


I don't think I have met any gay or lesbian who wishes to shove any alternative lifestyle or sexual orientation down anyone's throat, since we don't appreciate straight people trying to do the same to us.





I have met many, specially when they get upset when some part of society fights against the teachings of homosexuality at schools or other similar examples.


I am sorry to hear that you will be sad and disappointed if one of your kids ends up being gay.

Nothing to feel sorry about.


I think there are many reasons to be happy for your child and that sexual orientation should not be a major factor.

Did anyone said it should be a major factor?



I'm thankful that my mother is happy for me.[/quote:djtfrz6j]

Happy about you being gay? I DOUBT it very much. I am very sure she is happy about YOU as her son, your accomplishments, etc. Nobody is "happy" about a child being gay.

[smilie=beach.gif] No, it's hardly ever just about being gay. It is the whole package as you point out. I don't see any point in nit-picking over what exactly makes her happy.
And no, you don't have to "support a homosexual lifestyle" as you put it, but it sure makes it more difficult for sons and daughters already struggling with acceptance issues in the wider society.

But yes, many parents are fixated on sexual orientation as a major factor in their approval of their children's behavior and the danger of this is that a negative message can be sent to teenagers, which can easily inhibit them from speaking about their own feelings. Just a thought.

alieninthecaribbean
05-25-2009, 05:24 PM
Medic, what exactly is "a homosexual lifestyle"?

When straight people call it that, are they referring to the sexual act itself. Because my "lifestyle" consists of my creative work, my writing, my penchant for gourmet food, my spiritual questing and of course all the inner workings that takes place in any long-term relationship.

There is no single "homosexual lifestyle" just as there is no single "heterosexual lifestyle".

Geez! :roll:

Huma
05-25-2009, 05:51 PM
Falcon and Chicabonita, every word I used in those posts comes directly from the other thread on gay issues. We had people calling gays abominations and reprobates, saying gays deserve to be eliminated, and saying they themselves would murder a homosexual just for being gay in certain circumstances.

So please don't act as if I'm creating a strawman or making stuff up. It's all right there to read.

I simply asked why no one's voiced those opinions directly to dreamer and alieninthecaribbean. They're gay. Here's a great chance.

Huma
05-25-2009, 05:58 PM
How do we try to shove our lives down other people's throat exactly?


medic2 is talking about gays trying to "make" other people gay.

Chicabonita is talking about gays wanting others to not hate them.

medic2
05-25-2009, 06:04 PM
Medic, what exactly is "a homosexual lifestyle"?

When straight people call it that, are they referring to the sexual act itself. Because my "lifestyle" consists of my creative work, my writing, my penchant for gourmet food, my spiritual questing and of course all the inner workings that takes place in any long-term relationship.

There is no single "homosexual lifestyle" just as there is no single "heterosexual lifestyle".

Geez! :roll:

[smilie=beach.gif] Not my words, alien, just a quote from the previous post. But for the record, I agree with you that there is nothing as a single gay or straight lifestyle.

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 06:51 PM
Chicabonita is talking about gays wanting others to not hate them.

Why do you speak for me? :shock: No, that's NOT what I am talking about at all. I have NO PROBLEM whatsoever that they can teach NO HATE towards homosexuals, many times they are victims of hate crime and that's absolutely wrong and unacceptable. My issue (again for fifth time) is when the school system wants to teach homosexuality as acceptable to pre-school kids by reading objectionable material of two guys kissing and so on. That's NOT acceptable in my books and as a parent I do not want my children being taught such thing.

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 06:53 PM
We had people calling gays abominations and reprobates, saying gays deserve to be eliminated, and saying they themselves would murder a homosexual just for being gay in certain circumstances.

Well, I absolutely think that's very wrong to say and I do not share such feelings.

ttvex
05-25-2009, 07:32 PM
It's true, those things were said on the other thread, I would know, I was there. AIC you once again have posted some really well laid out points; I just feel like its talking to the wind. Chica, I DO understand what you're saying. You don't want schools teaching about homosexuality because you think that is the responsibility of yourself, the parent.

I do not pretend to know why you take that stance and speculation is a dangerous thing. But, is it because you believe that only a parent should teach about morals? I can tell you that my story is regrettably similar to AIC. From puberty, realising I was somehow different. Trying to internally figure out 'what de hell' was going on. Why I wasn't attracted to girls like everyone else.

Then I started hearing the words '******' and 'homo' and I too realised, dear lord, they are talking about me. At 14 I thought I was the only 'homo' in the entire country. I was scared, confused, I had no information, no knowledge that such a sexual orientation had even existed yet there I was, gay. I had such a low self esteem, blamed myself, scared that my parents, who had always loved me, would disown me. I thought about killing myself. I WAS ONLY FOURTEEN! No 14 year old, no teenager for that fact, should have to go through that kind of emotional and psychological trauma. If only I could talk to my mom about it, I knew it would have made things so much easier. She didnt have to accept it, just talk to me about it. Let me know that it existed.

Thank God for internet! I googled and I searched and I soon learned that I wasn't the only gay. That there were many gays. And that this wasn't some strange disease I had unexpectantly contracted or an evil spirit that had possessed me.

My mother did not agree. I was beaten, called names, verbally abused. I was not only taken to the routing church service on Sunday, but also forced to go on Wednesdays and Saturdays. I was re-baptized (count three times), I was re-anointed. A foreign priest even exorcised me on Christmas day. I am still gay. Each time, there was a little glimmer of hope inside, maybe this will work, maybe I am evil and something horrible has possessed me. And each time there was failure. And soon began wondering why people thought it would evil.

I wasn't hurting anyone. I was loving another human being. I was responsible, caring, law abiding, smart. Why did people hate me for that ONE aspect of my persona. Yes I wasn't going to procreate, but so too that woman with fertility problems, that man with the vasectomy, that lady with cancer of the womb, the man with impotence NONE of them were going to procreate either but no Christians were condemning them. And so I began to believe, maybe, just maybe, nothing is 'wrong' with me. I am the same person I have always been, I am just different.

I don't think any school should preach their morals to anyone. I do think that the schooling system though will, in an indirect way, impart a lot of the moral teaching, combined with what is taught at home. BUT I do believe that young kids should be made aware that gays do exist. And that some of their friends may end up being gay and that it is not okay to call them names and hurt them, because they are people just like everyone else. I don't think that is condoning homosexuality or supporting it, it is just advocating a 'no hate' policy and giving kids the information so that they do not grow up in to adults who are scared of something they don't understand because they were never taught about it, and so resort to hate as a self defense mechanism.

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 08:07 PM
TTvex, first of all let me tell you I am sorry to hear about your ordeal. :| Second, I would like to ask where in the world did you grow up with? In what kind of environment? I mean your age appears as 29 and its very hard to believe (I am not saying you are lying eh!) that you did not know what homosexuality was. You never went to school, had friends, watch TV, etc? :shock:

About your question, yes I believe it is MY responsibility to teach my kids about morals, it is NOT the school job to do so, just like I do NOT agree with this, I do NOT agree with schools teaching about condom use and distributing them. Again, MY JOB as a parent to teach those things.

ttvex
05-25-2009, 08:35 PM
Oh dear no, I'm sorry if that post was a bit misleading. I was talking about when I was 12,13,14. I was outed when I was 16. And yes, at 14 I had NO IDEA there were other gays. Believe it or not. The topic was never spoken in my house, we did not have cable television and homes were now starting to have computers. At 29 I definitely know other gays lol. I started finding out there were more at around 14/15. I first found out there were gays in other countries and it wasn't just me, and then I started to find out there were gays in trinidad too. I can tell you, it was a HUGE relief. I really had thought I was diseased. Looking back on it, it sounds silly, but try to remember how your mind worked when you were 14.
I mean, to be placed in a situation where you slowly realise you are completely different from everyone around you at 12/13/14 years old. And then to realise people are talking about what you are with disgust and hatred. And then to think, 'oh no, I will have to keep this a secret forever, no one i love, none of my family, can ever know who I really am' etc. Maybe I was a slow 14yr old? I don't know, but I can tell you when puberty hit and I realised I was gay, I really thought I was the only gay in Trinidad. Sounds funny now, I know.

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 08:40 PM
Wow, I am shocked that you did not know about homosexuality at age 14. :shock: Were you the only child in your home? I grew up also in a Christian home and by 12 years old or even before that I knew what homosexuality was even though it was not "literally" taught to me at home but was one of those things you *just* knew about. I guess it all depends on your upbringing, personality, etc.

ttvex
05-25-2009, 08:45 PM
dancer boy- I am neither (I catch your wit, fine line my friend. In that same vein, not all straight doctors go on to become gynaecologists)

Sylvestter - i was outed at 16. I knew I had been gay since puberty hit, around 12, I guess the same time all my friends were starting to notice girls.

ttvex
05-25-2009, 09:18 PM
Its true I had heard of the word, maily from church I guess. But a 12 year old's perception of the meaning of certain words varies significantly with the actual impact a word can have in real life. Realising I WAS actually one of those homosexuals was a completely different thing. No longer was it just a word used in the bible to talk about people who were evil and possessed and did bad things. Now I had to figure out everything by myself. Did i mean that now I like guys, like naturally like guys? Did that mean I could never be attracted to girls? I could never have a family? etc etc etc the list of questions, (and subsequent experiments) goes on and on. Hearing about homosexuality as a teen is indeed one thing but grasping its meaning is something else. I am sure that though you may have known about it at 12, if one of your closest friend told you he/she was a homosexual at 12, you too would be very confused. no?

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 09:24 PM
I am sure that though you may have known about it at 12, if one of your closest friend told you he/she was a homosexual at 12, you too would be very confused. no?

Actually no, sounds strange? :?

ttvex
05-25-2009, 09:38 PM
to me it does. Guess you're right, just depends on your upbrining. I would have thought it strange at 12, wondered what it really meant, how they ended up like that etc etc etc. I am sure I'd have a thousand questions and even more doubts. I don't know. Perhaps at 12 you could have turned to that friend and said, I understand, it happens, don't worry I still respect you. When I was 12, and maybe its because boys take a longer time to mature, but I highly doubt any of my male classmates would have been understanding. In fact, the name calling would have had a kick start.

Huma
05-25-2009, 09:42 PM
We had people calling gays abominations and reprobates, saying gays deserve to be eliminated, and saying they themselves would murder a homosexual just for being gay in certain circumstances.

Well, I absolutely think that's very wrong to say and I do not share such feelings.

Some of the people who posted those messages then came into this thread and boil down like bhagi, posting pseudo-supportive posts. Others are yet to directly respond to AIC, dreamer and ttvex, opting instead to post rhetoric in response to other posts.

All this talk of moral backbone is amounting to naught. If you can call them immoral deviants when they not around, read through ttvex's story and call him a disgusting fag. Read the exchange between dreamer and AIC and call them worthless dykes.

Earlier in the thread I expressed my disdain for closeted homosexuals who don't stand up for their struggle. Well apparently that kinda cowardice exists on the other side of the divide as well.

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 09:43 PM
Could you provide a link for that thread you are referring to? Thanks.

Chicabonita
05-25-2009, 09:52 PM
to me it does. Guess you're right, just depends on your upbrining. I would have thought it strange at 12, wondered what it really meant, how they ended up like that etc etc etc. I am sure I'd have a thousand questions and even more doubts. I don't know. Perhaps at 12 you could have turned to that friend and said, I understand, it happens, don't worry I still respect you. When I was 12, and maybe its because boys take a longer time to mature, but I highly doubt any of my male classmates would have been understanding. In fact, the name calling would have had a kick start.

When I was 12 there was this boy in my class who everybody said he was "gay" (talked like a girl, moved like a girl, etc). It was heartbreaking seeing how they made fun of him. For some reason I always felt a responsibility from young age to be friends with those that others rejected (don't ask me why, it was never really taught to me), so I became a friend of this kid and we ended up becoming great friends. Long years passed and we were 23 years old, I saw him walking down the street and he recognized me quickly, I DID NOT. He hugged me and told me how much it meant for him during those years, I never thought about it that way.

I also have a friend (from a very religious background) who is also gay. He came out when he was already a man (Around 21 or so). He moved out with a man. His family was devastated, they took some years to get over it but eventually were in speaking terms again. For me, it never changed the way I felt about him and even though he knows how I feel about the whole thing, he knows I am always here when he needs me and I love him.

ttvex
05-25-2009, 10:00 PM
''All this talk of moral backbone is amounting to naught. If you can call them immoral deviants when they not around, read through ttvex's story and call him a disgusting fag. Read the exchange between dreamer and AIC and call them worthless dykes.''

Huma I understand your point but that statement is blatant war-mongering.
Just because people have 'boiled down' does not necessarily mean they are being hypocritical. Maybe they are seeing another side to a story, learning soemthing about something they did not understand or maybe you are right and they are pretending to be nice because we are on the forums but will call us those names behind our backs. I don't know.

Either way, I would prefer it if you did not encourage people, WHATEVER their stance, to start calling us derogative names. If they do that in their private conversations or in their own homes that is their perogative. This is a public posting board, not some 'throw yuh bess insult' pig stye.

I know that you do not appreciate hypocrites, but I look at it as though at least some people are willing to be civil, have a decent debate and conversation without reverting to ignorant slander.

Huma
05-25-2009, 10:01 PM
Could you provide a link for that thread you are referring to? Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4822 (http://www.ttonline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4822)

Huma
05-25-2009, 10:05 PM
I know that you do not appreciate hypocrites, but I look at it as though at least some people are willing to be civil, have a decent debate and conversation without reverting to ignorant slander.


You're right.

sylvestter
05-26-2009, 07:10 AM
ttvex, aitc, et al, do you find it exhausting to have to defend your sexuality in a forum like this? do you think this is a healthy exercise, or a pointless waste of time?

ttvex
05-26-2009, 08:41 AM
I think it is extremely helpful. Any chance to show people my side of the story, I will take. I not trying to convince anyone to condone homosexuality or change their religion or go against their religion or whatever. I am trying to advocate decency between human beings no matter what their sexual preference.

Its not exhausting, many people have raised really interesting points. There is no right or wrong answer, just various opinions and people will have to use their judgement to decide what they think is the most appropriate stance to take. If I have helped anyone see that they shouldn't be discriminating against homosexuals then that makes it all worthwhile.

It's only frustrating when we get posts from the extremists who call us abominations and this, that and the other. But I can't ask them not to post, they have a right to as much as I do. ''Listen to the dull and the ignorant, for they too have their story to tell.'' It is however, not conducive to a healthy discussion and it's also quite hurtful. Simply just to know another human being can fester so much hate in their heart for someone they don't even know based on something like that person's sexuality. Its just one of those life ironies.

alieninthecaribbean
05-26-2009, 12:38 PM
ttvex, it's hard to get a thick skin in the face of religious intolerance.

For many reasons for many gay people it hurts really deep for a long time until they truly understand and know for a certainty that God is not limited by man's opinions and they are and have always been just as free to explore a spiritual path that gives them the most meaningful relationship with the Divine and the Universe which is abundant and unconditional.

I can probably face a Fred Phelps (The Christian preacher who stands outside funerals of gay men like Matthew Shepperd with signs that say: GOD HATES FAGS!) with a smile. Honest.

I have been permanently hardened by the extent of religious abuse I went through and am SOOOO clearly convinced these people do NOT have Gods mind on the matter at all.

More than that ttvex, any gay or lesbian person who takes the time to heal from that hurt, re-build their self-esteem, forge ahead with a spiritual path that truly is about truth, unconditional love and life-affirmation and in doing so, find healthy relationships with both other gay people and straight people (Most of my closest most abiding friendships are with straight people. I am godmother to one of my best friend's children) most of all, find love and committment...you will find it DOESN'T MATTER what the religious haters say.

You are happy. You are fulfilled. You are optimistic. You feel grateful for the life you have.

ttvex
05-26-2009, 12:49 PM
Indeed.

I am not worried for myself, I have a good life, a good job, a good relationship, a good outlook on life, good friends, great family and a good relationship with my own spirituality and my own God.

I am fighting for the less eloquent, less brave, less confrontational gays who are put through so much. Those who cannot stand the abuse, and who crumble beneath it. Those who we loose to suicide because a 'loving religion' showed them the true face of discrimination.

The only reason I stay on this forum is to help those persons. I am past the 'sensitive stage' where it bothers me. I have lived in many countries and I have seen how other civilisations treat homosexuals. I could just avoid the whole situation in its entirety and let each to their own. But it is not right for young gays to go through what they go through. Young, innocent boys and girls who have no control over their own sexual preference to be beaten down to the ground and have their self esteem chewed and spat back out. No laws will protect them from that kind of abuse in the home.

Maybe someone here will change their views on homosexuality. Maybe their son/daughter/niece/nephew/cousin whatever will come out and they will think twice before hurtling abuse. Or maybe they will talk to the parents and try to help them understand. It is a long and difficult road, but I started on it a long time ago.

I fight because I want to show a side of the story so often neglected and untold. I will stay away from the word 'enlighten' but I want those who do not accept or tolerate to at least understand. I recognise this is an idealistic notion, but if not based on idealism, then what?

alieninthecaribbean
05-26-2009, 01:17 PM
ttvex, aitc, et al, do you find it exhausting to have to defend your sexuality in a forum like this? do you think this is a healthy exercise, or a pointless waste of time?


Nope I am accustomed to it. Been doing it so long.

I could do it all my life if it means the younger generation of gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgendered people will have a better life than I did.

I would love nothing better than to start a PFLAG support group for parents whose kids are gay. They can come and talk about their shared fears, concerns etc. and learn to mend broken relationships. I have seen how homophobia has ripped families apart. Parents disconnected from their daughters and sons. Siblings angry at each other etc.

I have also seen families stand side by side with their gay children and march with them at Gay Pride. I've seen brothers and sisters with gay siblings stand up to bullying and violence against them in school. I've seen co-workers come out in support of a gay man who was dying of AIDS.

I try to think there is good in people still.

alieninthecaribbean
05-26-2009, 01:30 PM
ttvex, perhaps a forum is needed for gays and lesbians and parents of gays and lesbians to confidentially discuss their issues and get unbiased, productive answers geared to foster understanding and mend relationships.

ttvex
05-26-2009, 01:34 PM
Indeed, by confidential I assume you mean anonymously? The problem is ensuring that unbiased and productive answers are received; one must also, undoubtedly, expect someone, somewhere to bolt on to the forum and express anti-gay sentiment. How would one monitor such a thread???
I think it would be something worth discussing with the moderators. But it is a brilliant and LONG overdue idea!

alieninthecaribbean
05-26-2009, 01:58 PM
You cannot stop the anti-gay sentiments and in fact, people need to learn how to deal with them. There used to be desensitisation exercises we did in a support group for gays and lesbians where we'd scream all the things people scream at us:

"You are an abomination!"
'God hates you!"
"What you do is disgusting!"
"You can change if you want!"
"Repent of your sin if you don't want to burn!"
"Gays are worse than dogs!"
"The bible says its a sin!" etc. etc. etc.

While they scream it, you keep saying:
I am who I am and accept who I am.
I live in truth.
I am beautiful.
I deserve respect.
I unconditionally love.
I am the child of a loving God etc. etc. to counter.

It is a VERY powerful exercise.

Double Trouble
05-26-2009, 03:30 PM
My son or daughter could very well be gay / lesbian and I will continue to love them but love doesn't mean approval. So, to all the gays and lesbians on this forum, the same sentiments apply to you. I wish you no harm, as a matter of fact I wish you all the happiness in the world. However, I am getting the impression that you all are looking for some form of endorsement from straight folks.

alieninthecaribbean
05-26-2009, 04:05 PM
My son or daughter could very well be gay / lesbian and I will continue to love them but love doesn't mean approval. So, to all the gays and lesbians on this forum, the same sentiments apply to you. I wish you no harm, as a matter of fact I wish you all the happiness in the world. However, I am getting the impression that you all are looking for some form of endorsement from straight folks.

I hope I didn't give you that impression Double. I have said repeatedly on this forum and on another one that people should be 100% free to have their personal and religious views on homosexuality. If you don't approve, then don't approve. If you are gay, feel free to try and live like a heterosexual if you think that is the right thing to do. Feel free to teach your kids whatever and preach whatever.

Gay people just want to live free from violence, intimidation, unchecked defamation and discrimination. If violence, intimidation or unchecked defamation and discrimination happens to me, I'd like to know there are legal channels available to me to seek justice and get equal justice.

Then there are practical everyday things like, if my life-partner is hospitalised, the hospital staff has to respect that I require the same visitation rights as any family member. They need to respect that I am the one she has designated to make any medical decisions should she be unable to. I can't even go into all the little, practical financial, legal and civil issues that matter to any couple, common-law or married. That's a whole other story.

So I guess it depends on what you consider endorsement.

dancerboy
05-27-2009, 09:00 PM
Oh dear no, I'm sorry if that post was a bit misleading. I was talking about when I was 12,13,14. I was outed when I was 16. And yes, at 14 I had NO IDEA there were other gays. Believe it or not. The topic was never spoken in my house, we did not have cable television and homes were now starting to have computers. At 29 I definitely know other gays lol. I started finding out there were more at around 14/15. I first found out there were gays in other countries and it wasn't just me, and then I started to find out there were gays in trinidad too. I can tell you, it was a HUGE relief. I really had thought I was diseased. Looking back on it, it sounds silly, but try to remember how your mind worked when you were 14.
I mean, to be placed in a situation where you slowly realise you are completely different from everyone around you at 12/13/14 years old. And then to realise people are talking about what you are with disgust and hatred. And then to think, 'oh no, I will have to keep this a secret forever, no one i love, none of my family, can ever know who I really am' etc. Maybe I was a slow 14yr old? I don't know, but I can tell you when puberty hit and I realised I was gay, I really thought I was the only gay in Trinidad. Sounds funny now, I know.

TTVEX i am 65 years young. I went to OSMOND HIGH SCHOOL in WOODBROOK. There used to be a gay man in PORT-OF-SPAIN by the name of HINDS. I am sure MR.BIGZACK knows him( i am not trying to be facetious), and probably SHIELD also. I was about 13 years back then. So for you not to know about gays in T&T you must have lived a very sheltered life. Back then they uses to call him "buller man hinds).The word "buller man" is a term from the 60's.

DANCERBOY

dancerboy
05-27-2009, 09:22 PM
Could you provide a link for that thread you are referring to? Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4822 (http://www.ttonline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4822)

This link leads to my thread. I don't i was being disrespectful. Of course i was poking fun at SHIELD, AND MR.BIGZACK, like i usually do. Unles you were referring to other posts on the thread.


DANCERBOY

dancerboy
05-27-2009, 09:24 PM
ttvex, aitc, et al, do you find it exhausting to have to defend your sexuality in a forum like this? do you think this is a healthy exercise, or a pointless waste of time?

SYLVESTTER my friend, nobody is asking you to come out the closet.


DANCERBOY

dancerboy
05-27-2009, 09:29 PM
I think it is extremely helpful. Any chance to show people my side of the story, I will take. I not trying to convince anyone to condone homosexuality or change their religion or go against their religion or whatever. I am trying to advocate decency between human beings no matter what their sexual preference.

Its not exhausting, many people have raised really interesting points. There is no right or wrong answer, just various opinions and people will have to use their judgement to decide what they think is the most appropriate stance to take. If I have helped anyone see that they shouldn't be discriminating against homosexuals then that makes it all worthwhile.

It's only frustrating when we get posts from the extremists who call us abominations and this, that and the other. But I can't ask them not to post, they have a right to as much as I do. ''Listen to the dull and the ignorant, for they too have their story to tell.'' It is however, not conducive to a healthy discussion and it's also quite hurtful. Simply just to know another human being can fester so much hate in their heart for someone they don't even know based on something like that person's sexuality. Its just one of those life ironies.

TTVEX my friend, answer me this hypothetical question honestly. If you were not gay, and you discovered your younger brother is gay, what would be your reaction ?

DANCERBOY

dancerboy
05-27-2009, 09:56 PM
My son or daughter could very well be gay / lesbian and I will continue to love them but love doesn't mean approval. So, to all the gays and lesbians on this forum, the same sentiments apply to you. I wish you no harm, as a matter of fact I wish you all the happiness in the world. However, I am getting the impression that you all are looking for some form of endorsement from straight folks.

I hope I didn't give you that impression Double. I have said repeatedly on this forum and on another one that people should be 100% free to have their personal and religious views on homosexuality. If you don't approve, then don't approve. If you are gay, feel free to try and live like a heterosexual if you think that is the right thing to do. Feel free to teach your kids whatever and preach whatever.

Gay people just want to live free from violence, intimidation, unchecked defamation and discrimination. If violence, intimidation or unchecked defamation and discrimination happens to me, I'd like to know there are legal channels available to me to seek justice and get equal justice.

Then there are practical everyday things like, if my life-partner is hospitalised, the hospital staff has to respect that I require the same visitation rights as any family member. They need to respect that I am the one she has designated to make any medical decisions should she be unable to. I can't even go into all the little, practical financial, legal and civil issues that matter to any couple, common-law or married. That's a whole other story.

So I guess it depends on what you consider endorsement.

AIC,and TTVEX all these rights you are asking for, are accorded to GAYS in the US. I am sure you are aware that some states (VERMONT, to name one)have legalized marriage among gays. However yesterday the CALIFORNIA court upheld a referedum outlwaing gay marriage. It was passsed by the legislature. However, those gays who are already married, would be allowed to keep their status. So most of this negativism about gays is really in the third world.
NYC GOV'T gay employees are provided for, just as heterosexual couples.(It's called domestic partners). Gay couples in NY are allowed to adopt children. As a matter of fact, the punishment for attacking someone because he is gay, is more severe than attacking a straight person. It is called a "HATE CRIME".



DANCERBOY

ttvex
05-28-2009, 07:53 AM
dancerboy, Just because you knew a gay man when you were 13 does not mean everyone had that experience. I did not grow up in port of spain. And so what if I lived a sheltered life? How is that in any way relevant to this discussion? Are you trying to imply something or just point out a useless observation?

I cannot possible say how I would react if I wasnt gay and all of a sudden my younger brother came out as gay. It is impossible to say. I have learnt a LOT of tolerance from being gay. All the hate and discrimination forced me from a young age to question things. To stand up to friends and strangers alike who would say racial jokes or discriminate aagainst women, why? Cause I knew what it felt like first hand. WHo knows, if I wasn't gay maybe I'd discriminate against gays myself, I'd like to think not. Being gay is just one aspect of my life but it has had a huge impact on how I view the world.

My question you to you guys: Whether you are indian or black or mixed or white or whatever just change the situation of this scenario to suit - Imagine if you were talking to a caucasian person, well educated and respected in society and he tells you (a black man) ''listen, allyuh black people can have your rights, just keep away from me. I doh want no n****a around me.''

Someone on this forum said the exact same thing regarding gays - have yuh rights, just stay away from me. Granted that is their perogative, their right so I can't change that. I just want you guys to THINK about your behaviour and reaction towards gays. Try to imagine what you are doing to these people and how you are making them feel. Maybe some of you wouldn't give a rats a** if someone said that to you. But i'd like to think that those with any kind of emotion would feel a bit distressed. You'd ask 'why does that man hate me so? I didn't do him anything. I just living my life, being me and he cant even stand for me to be AROUND him?'

Do you understand where I am coming from.

Amelia
05-28-2009, 09:38 AM
^^^If u have been listening at all to the concerns of ppl who spoke out about homosexulity, that is not a fair analogy.

ttvex
05-28-2009, 09:54 AM
What is not fair about the analogy? It is mean to act like that based on race but not on sexuality? It's worse if that's said to a black man but not a gay man? What exact part of the analogy is unfair?

Discrimination is discrimination, there is no point in hiding behind religion/morality as these things are based on individual preference. My point is that its wrong to do that to a black/white/brown/mentally ill/lower socioeconomic status etc just like its wrong to treat homosexuals that way. There is no difference. The hurt a black person would feel if treated like that is the same hurt we feel.

(Remember I am just using a black person as an example, you can choose to replace it with ANYTHING, with rich saying it to poor, with normal intelligence saying it to the mentally ill, with indian saying it to white, white saying it to black, black saying it to indian WHATEVER, do not get caught up in the nitty gritty of the analogy, open your mind for ONE SECOND and try to see my point instead of rushing to point out flaws in the analogy. Obviously none of those things are exactly the same, but it is the principle that I am trying to get across. Basically: WHEN YOU TREAT PEOPLE LIKE THAT, IT HURTS. The analogy is just to help people jump into the shoes of someone who is experiencing discrimination, nothing else.)

If you take a few steps back Amelia, and try to see the point, you'd realise I wasn't trying to create a perfect analogy. I am just trying to show you that when you treat people unfairly like that, though it may be your right, it is a nasty and disgusting thing to do. I am not saying everyone on this forum does treat homosexuals like that, I am just saying for those who do, try to understand what you're doing.

Must you play the devil's advocate?

Chicabonita
05-28-2009, 10:00 AM
whats not fair about the analogy? It's mean to act like that based on race but not on sexuality? It's worse if that's said to a black man but not a gay man? What exact part of the analogy is unfair?

- discrimination is discrimination, there is no point in hiding behind religion/morality as these things are based on individual preference. My point is that its wrong to do that to a black/white/brown/mentally ill/lower socioeconomic status etc just like its wrong to treat homosexuals that way. There is no difference. The hurt a black person would feel if treated like that is the same hurt we feel.

(Remember I am just using a black person as an example, you can choose to replace it with ANYTHING, with rich saying it to poor, with smart saying it to mentall ill, with indian saying it to white, white saying it to black, black saying it to indian WHATEVER, do not get caught up in the nitty gritty of the analogy, open your mind for ONE SECOND and try to see my point instead of rushing to point out flaws in the analogy. Obviously none of those things are exactly the same, but it is the principle that I am trying to get across. Basically: WHEN YOU TREAT PEOPLE LIKE THAT, IT HURTS. The analogy is just to help people jump into the shoes of someone who is experiencing discrimination, nothing else.)

If you take a few steps back Amelia, and try to see the point, you'd realise I wasn't trying to create a perfect analogy. I am just trying to show you that when you treat people unfairly like that, though it may be your right, it is a nasty and disgusting thing to do. I am not saying everyone on this forum does treat homosexuals like that, I am just saying for those who do, try to understand what you're doing.

ttvex, what Amelia and others are trying to say is that some of us do not treat gays like that neither we think is fair. Having said that, I don't have to open my arms widely and accept the whole concept in schools where MY children attend in order for you or anybody else not to feel discriminated. I decide what I want my kids to be exposed to, you don't decide that for me regardless whether you think is good or not.

ttvex
05-28-2009, 10:06 AM
I know Chica, read the last paragraph of what i wrote

''If you take a few steps back Amelia, and try to see the point, you'd realise I wasn't trying to create a perfect analogy. I am just trying to show you that when you treat people unfairly like that, though it may be your right, it is a nasty and disgusting thing to do. I am not saying everyone on this forum does treat homosexuals like that, I am just saying for those who do, try to understand what you're doing.''

Chicabonita
05-28-2009, 10:10 AM
ttvex, I think those people do understand what they are doing.

Amelia
05-28-2009, 10:23 AM
I understand that u are trying to get ppl to empathise with the pain they cause by their discrimination but it cannot work if by ur analogy, (which is poor) u put the same ppl on the defensive about views they deem to be perfectly legitimate.

Lets say u were a man 50 year old man in an intimate relationshiop with a 16 year old.
Now its perfectly legitimate by law, and u both are according to the law, consenting adults, but for some there is something inherently wrong with that scnario and while the society at large may respect ur right to live ur life as u wish within the confines of the law, that doesnt mean they have to approve.

What I've been hearing in all the threads is that gays want to live in a tolerant society. Fine. But stop pushing ppl to act as if they approve.

ttvex
05-28-2009, 10:28 AM
No one is saying to act like you approve. Just act decently. You don't have to approve of black people/ mentally ill people/ indian people etc, that is your CHOICE, but you still treat them a certain way in society. Again you miss the point. And the analogy is only poor to you because you do not grasp it.

Do you understand. I am not saying to approve of anything. But just don't be blatantly homophobic, just like racsists shouldn't be blatantly racsist. They can hate whichever race they want in their own house and in their beliefs etc that is their choice, they were born able to choose, but it is not acceptable to treat people like that.

Amelia
05-28-2009, 10:32 AM
No one is saying to act like you approve. Just act decently. You don't have to approve of black people/ mentally ill people/ indian people etc, that is your CHOICE, but you still treat them a certain way in society. Again you miss the point. And the analogy is only poor to you because you do not grasp it.

No analogy is poor bec u assume that everyone buys into ur view that homosexulaity is as natural and normal as race. That, like race, it is something that u are born with and have no control over.

For the ppl u are trying to reach with this analogy, this is not so. They will reject it as so and they will heap scorn on u for once again seemingly trying to make it out to be so.

So the message is all well and good and I always aced comprehension in school so I think I understand what u are saying. I am simply suggesting that u understand ur intended 'audience' and move to suit.

ttvex
05-28-2009, 10:48 AM
I do understand the audience, and you would not believe the type of people who treat gays with dscrimination. I guarantee you that the message will hit home for at least a few people, maybe not all but a few people.

How do you know that the people I am trying to reach with this analogy do not believe homosexuality is natural. They might well do and still discriminate against us because it goes against their religion or for whatever reason. You are generalising to try to make your point valid. Your prophecy that ''they will reject it as so and they will heap scorn on you for once again seemingly trying to make it out to be so'' is your personal opinion.

I have tried to reach out to people with the very same argument and have had many failures but also some successes. So do not generalise everyone into your idealist category. Those who discriminate vary enormously from the uneducated to the informed, from the religious to the atheist. I am trying to reach those who have never stopped to think about how it would feel if they were discriminated against. You clearly think this is a futile effort but not everyone shares your opinion. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.

And you clearly did NOT grasp my meaning for whatever reason if you think I was asking people to accept homosexuality. I am just saying DESPITE your personal views, there is an acceptable way to treat people in society, social etiquette. You may hate blacks but you cannot stand in the street and call them n***as, you may hate Indians but you cant throw bottles at them. I am NOT asking for acceptance. The point was that those negative actions hurt, and it is not acceptable to treat homosexuals that way, or at least it SHOULD not be acceptable.

dancerboy
05-28-2009, 10:53 AM
No one is saying to act like you approve. Just act decently. You don't have to approve of black people/ mentally ill people/ indian people etc, that is your CHOICE, but you still treat them a certain way in society. Again you miss the point. And the analogy is only poor to you because you do not grasp it.

Do you understand. I am not saying to approve of anything. But just don't be blatantly homophobic, just like racsists shouldn't be blatantly racsist. They can hate whichever race they want in their own house and in their beliefs etc that is their choice, they were born able to choose, but it is not acceptable to treat people like that.

The analogy is also very very poor for me also, TTVEX. You cannot equate gays with any discrimination because of skin color or race. It's asinine. My children,my grand children,my greatgrand children will always be black. NO CHOICE. At one time in the US the blackman was considered one third of a man. There were signs saying "NO COLORED". Have you ever seen signs saying; "no gays". You are a doctor, so i guess you had no problem entering schools because you are gay. 1954 BROWN VS BOARD OF ED. overturned discrimination agianst blacks, in schools. At one time in the US: " A BLACK MAN HAD NO RIGHTS THAT A WHITE MAN MUST RESPECT ". TTVEX my friend, i hope and pray that gays never be treated the way blacks were treated in the US. Has anyone ever "SICKED" their dogs on you because you were gay.

TTVEX,AIC, and any other gay or lesbian would never get my sympathy, if they insist on equating gay rights with racism of any kind. And i am all for legalizing homosexuality. TTVEX my friend, i was deeply involved in the BLACK POWER MOVEMENT at BROOKLYN college in the 70's. And i very strongly object to this comparison. And i am sure that's the sentiment of very many blacks. As long as you insist on making this comparison, blacks will reject any argument you put forward. NO MATTER HOW CONVINCING.

NB: This post was submitted before reading the two previuos posts.


DANCERBOY

Amelia
05-28-2009, 11:03 AM
ttvex,
U are right, I am presuming. U would be in a better position to know who hate u than I.

But DB's post is an excellent example of what I saw coming.

ttvex
05-28-2009, 11:06 AM
Firstly Dancerboy, you must be completely blind if you think discrimination against gays is not as bad as it is against blacks. Completely blind. Or it could be that you were just not exposed to it. YES, people have set their dogs on gays, they have beaten gays to pulp, murdered gays, they have taunted, abused and discriminated against gays. What do think all those riots in the 80's were for? Fun?
And by the way, I think it is completely asinine that because the comparison has been drawn to your race, that you would use that as a base to withold your support. That alone is discrimination. You dislike gays so much that you cannot even stand an ANALOGY that compares discrimination. The black thing was just an example, I was not referring specifically to white against black racism, I was drawing an analogy to ALL kinds of discrimination. But that point has FLOWN well above your head. Instead, you have gotten defensive and insulted. Why? Because how dare I compare the discrimination gays are receiving to the discrimination blacks received? PLease dancerboy, do you not understand what an analogy is? Also I WILL ALWAYS BE GAY > NO CHOICE. There are many similarities to racial discrimination and obviously some differences, try to stand back and read what I write, not what you want to think I wrote. I don't care if its discrimination against race, against ability, against sexuality I am saying discrimination is wrong.

''As long as you insist on making this comparison, blacks will reject any argument you put forward. NO MATTER HOW CONVINCING.'' that is completely immature. I have many black friends and they completely agree to the comparison. I even have many black gay friends. And they too can't understand how a people who were discriminated against (for WHATEVER reason) can then turn around and start discriminating against another sect of people (for whatever reason). And no, your grandchildren are not destined to always be black, 1) they can marry other races, 2) they can get plastic surgery- Michael Jackson was black. The point is, they should not have to change themselves to get acceptance.

Read before you post.
''I am just saying DESPITE your personal views, there is an acceptable way to treat people in society, social etiquette. You may hate blacks but you cannot stand in the street and call them n***as, you may hate Indians but you cant throw bottles at them. I am NOT asking for acceptance. The point was that those negative actions hurt, and it is not acceptable to treat homosexuals that way, or at least it SHOULD not be acceptable.''

And try to remember dancerboy that blacks aren't the only race that experience racism k. And also my post used racism as an example, I also used other discrimination examples, take the time to read it. You are missing the big point. I don't care WHY anyone was discriminated against and how it is natural for them to be black but not for gays to be gay etc etc etc. That is NOT the point. THe point is IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT YOU ARE DISCRIMINATING against, it is STILL WRONG.

Next time I will have to use a hypothetical analogy so that people will stop narrowmindingly trying to break down the analogy without even bothering to understand the message.

ttvex
05-28-2009, 11:19 AM
and BTW you are implying that because it was discrimination against the colour of the skin it was a much worse thing to do than discriminate against me for my sexuality. That is asinine. The two are discrimination, that was my point.

Amelia
05-28-2009, 11:21 AM
Next time I will have to use a hypothetical analogy so that people will stop narrowmindingly trying to break down the analogy without even bothering to understand the message.


What did u expect?
The ppl who would treat u the way u stated in ur example woudnt be the most open-minded ppl around.
Its insulting to them to use something that is a legitimate deep wound to further ur own 'illegitimate' and 'facical' agenda.

But at least u try, I will give u credit for that.

Angie
05-28-2009, 11:21 AM
ttvex, no one wants to say this but let me so you will get a grasp of what others are saying; please bear in mind I mean no offense to you or to the homosexual community.

As human beings you enjoy the respect you deserve, however, it is the act of homosexuality that people find repulsive, nasty and disgusting, and it is because of those acts Gays/Lesbians are being rejected and discriminated against.

You need to understand it is very difficult if not impossible for people to get past your actions and treat you with dignity, respect and equality. To make it simple, the homosexual acts are what have cause Society to pour scorn, contempt and prejudice on Gays/Lesbians.

alieninthecaribbean
05-28-2009, 11:24 AM
I have experienced mild to ignorable discrimination and stereotyping because of my skin colour.

I have experienced moderate to mild discrimination and stereotyping becaues of my gender.

BUT

I have experienced SEVERE physical, sexual, emotional and psychological violence PLUS discrimination and stereotypng because of my sexual orientation.

So no, I don't equate sexual orientation with race. In my experience, the treatment I have received because of my orientation has been far worse than anything I have ever experienced for being black or being a woman.

Let me tell you, NOTHING can prepare you for seeing your partner get beaten up by some ignorant fool in BROAD DAYLIGHT in a supermarket and you are too scared to even bother reporting it to the police. Why? The warahoo thought my partner was a gay man (my partner is very butch) and when my partner politely asked her to wait her turn while she selected from the vegetable display, that gutter bat of a woman LOST IT,
"Doh tell meh nottin yuh bullerman! ******! Who de hell you tink you is!" etc. etc. and roped her thug jailbird son into the fray to beat up on my partner. It felt like I was running through molasses just to get there and help defend my loved one from these two hateful monsters.

When gay people equate their struggle with the civil rights struggle they do so on the same basis Coretta Scott King, the widow of Martin Luther King equated it when she spoke four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband's assassination before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel and said,

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice, but I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spreads all too easily to victimize the next minority group."

Amelia
05-28-2009, 11:26 AM
^^MUCH better!

Teach yuh friend a thing or two nuh AITC.
Who could argue with Dr King?

ttvex
05-28-2009, 11:32 AM
'illegitimate' and 'facical' agenda. > I have no more comments for you Amelia. Stand where you wish. It is funny that the same thing said with the backing of Mr. King can change someone's stance. What if he hadn't said it? Have we lost the ability to think and reason for ourselves?

''You need to understand it is very difficult if not impossible for people to get past your actions and treat you with dignity, respect and equality. To make it simple, the homosexual acts are what have cause Society to pour scorn, contempt and prejudice on Gays/Lesbians.'' >> Please speak on behalf of your own ignorance and not on behalf of everyone else. That may be why you discriminate against gays, but I am sure other people have other reasons. And remember when blacks were discriminated against, it was because the whites found them 'repulsive, nasty and disgusting'. Yes, in fact it was ''very difficult if not impossible for people to get past'' the colour and ''treat you with dignity, respect and equality.
To make it REALLY simple, your argument is S**T. Just because they believed blacks were disgusting does not mean they could treat them the way they did. It is their right to hate black and find them disgusting, but that does not make their actions acceptable. It is your right to not accept homosexuality, to find it disgusting and repulsive, it does not mean that your actions are acceptable. I CANNOT break this down any simpler for you. Next I will be talking about Boyo, Carla and Boyo's 'special friend' if I have to break it down any simpler.

alieninthecaribbean
05-28-2009, 11:37 AM
Hey Amelia, I LOVE how Salfish tries to justify the violence. It is not gay people but what they do in bed that makes people violent and want to discriminate. :roll:

A gay or lesbian could be celibate and still get beaten up just for the SUSPICION of it. In some parts of Jamaica, if a woman still single and childless and does not seem to be blatently putting herself out there pursuing the men like the other skets, she can get labelled a zamie and a mule and run into some SERIOUS problems.

I will never forget two female friends who were sitting outside of Coconuts (back in the day when Nuts was Hot :mrgreen: ). One was crying cause her boyfriend dumped her and she just saw him with another girl inside the club. The other girl was just hugging her friend and comforting her etc, TOTALLY innocent and some rude bwoys started up the tirade. Bouncers had to get involved before someone got hurt.

Let's just call it what it is...ignorance, hatred and hypocrisy.

dancerboy
05-28-2009, 11:47 AM
I have experienced mild to ignorable discrimination and stereotyping because of my skin colour.

I have experienced moderate to mild discrimination and stereotyping becaues of my gender.

BUT

I have experienced SEVERE physical, sexual, emotional and psychological violence PLUS discrimination and stereotypng because of my sexual orientation.

So no, I don't equate sexual orientation with race. In my experience, the treatment I have received because of my orientation has been far worse than anything I have ever experienced for being black or being a woman.

Let me tell you, NOTHING can prepare you for seeing your partner get beaten up by some ignorant fool in BROAD DAYLIGHT in a supermarket and you are too scared to even bother reporting it to the police. Why? The warahoo thought my partner was a gay man (my partner is very butch) and when my partner politely asked her to wait her turn while she selected from the vegetable display, that gutter bat of a woman LOST IT,
"Doh tell meh nottin yuh bullerman! ******! Who de hell you tink you is!" etc. etc. and roped her thug jailbird son into the fray to beat up on my partner. It felt like I was running through molasses just to get there and help defend my loved one from these two hateful monsters.

When gay people equate their struggle with the civil rights struggle they do so on the same basis Coretta Scott King, the widow of Martin Luther King equated it when she spoke four days before the 30th anniversary of her husband's assassination before nearly 600 people at the Palmer House Hilton Hotel and said,

"I still hear people say that I should not be talking about the rights of lesbian and gay people and I should stick to the issue of racial justice, but I hasten to remind them that Martin Luther King Jr. said, 'Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.’” Homophobia is like racism and anti-Semitism and other forms of bigotry in that it seeks to dehumanize a large group of people, to deny their humanity, their dignity and personhood. This sets the stage for further repression and violence that spreads all too easily to victimize the next minority group."

AIC my friend, i didn't read your entire post, but i wil do so after this post. You said you experienced severe discrimination because of being gay,more so tan being black, or being a woman. That's my point . EXACTLY ! Peolpe empathize more with you because they see your color, and your gender as beyond your control. Unfortunately,they do not see your sexual orientation as such. Now i will go and read the rest of the post.

And pleeze AIC, TTVEX,MEDIC2, and others of your ilk. I do not hate, or dislike gays. I have children, and grand children, and i hope neither of them is, or become gay, i would have no choice in the matter. But, i do not heap scorn on anyone, for the simple reason that i do not know what may befall my offsprings. And the ole people say, A man's worst transgression is to spit up in the air and it blow back in he face, or the worst injury ah man could get is when he dig ah hole for he enemy, and he fall in it. So let me repeat, again, i do not hate anyone. But that doesn't mean i will go along with whatever one chooses to do.

DANCERBOY

Amelia
05-28-2009, 11:49 AM
:roll: Good grief ttvex, u chose ur name wisely.
The words were in quotation marks bec they do not reflect my personal view but may be the views of the same ppl u trying to reach with ur ill-constructed tirade that doing nothing but getting the same ppl u hope to reach, on the defensive. (much like what I'm doing now with u - u so defensive u cant see the value in what I'm saying) Note how DB responded to AITC's post compared to urs. He's not exactly spewing hate anymore is he?

Ur posts have opened my eyes and gave me a better appreciation for ur experince.
But, I wasnt homophobic to start with...

ttvex
05-28-2009, 12:02 PM
Also notice how DB was quick to ask if I have ever had dogs let on me, but because AIC has posted her own discrimination experience his tone is completely different. I think he thought I was trivialising black discrimination, cause nothing that bad could have ever happened to me. If only he knew. I could also post the hate and discrimination that I have received. I shouldn't have to.

And like I said, we both have drawn a comparison to racism. But because one of us quoted Mr. King backing it up, people now stick their head up and listen. It shouldn't be like that. People should inherently realise that discrimination is discrimination and injustice is injustice. Where hate grows how can one sow understanding? But I am at least grateful some of the message is getting across.

Besides, I'd like to think I prepared DB for AIC's post, so he responded better to hers lol. Me, I'm not defensive, just upset that people don't take the time to read before they write. I personally think my 'tirade' was perfectly contructed, it was unfortunately misinterpreted.

Amelia
05-28-2009, 12:08 PM
:lol: :lol: :lol:
ttvex, u too funny!
Credibility! Who has more credibility?
U or King?
Respect! Who ppl respect more?
U, an anonymous poster, or King?
Celebrity endorsement is key!


How do u expect ppl to sympathise with ur problem if u dont show ppl in real meaningful terms what the problem is?
It has been said in past posts, gays are faceless boogey men. What AITC does, by telling her experience, is making her a real live human with feelings. Ppl can relate to that.

ttvex
05-28-2009, 12:09 PM
PS I am actually a very pleasant person :)

alieninthecaribbean
05-28-2009, 12:10 PM
dancerboy, believe me I get it. I know the difference between lack of approval and lack of respect. I keep using the example of people who's worship practices involve idols because the religious objection is equally virulent among Christians and muslims. A Christian may not approve of his Hindu neighbour pouring milk over the lingam as part of his worship. A Christian may not want to attend a puja or eat food from it. Many Christians believe all Hindus are going to hell and would be DEVASTED if their son or daughter converted to Hindusim.

Yet, how do you treat with your Hindu neighbour? That is what TOLERANCE is about. And religion unlike sexual orientation is a CHOICE. We actually respect people's CHOICE to act how they feel best in their spiritual life. Far less something determined by a whole bunch of biological and environmental factors.

So YES I understand you honestly do not HATE gay people, nor wish them ill, nor will do ill to them just because you may not personally approve of whatever it is you don't approave about us.

Also just also clear up this, "act of homosexuality" people keep harping about. Gay people do no more or no less than what MANY straight people do in their beds.

When I meet straight people I don't even want to THINK of what they are doing in private with their partners. It's NONE OF MY BUSINESS! Even when I see serious PDA going on, I don't jump there in my mind.

Why is it that you jump THERE in your mind when it comes to gays and lesbians? I've always wanted to ask.

Amelia
05-28-2009, 12:12 PM
PS I am actually a very pleasant person :)
Know what, I actually believe u. :D
But yuh blasted pig-headed too! :x
(meant in a nice way, please dont start another tirade :roll: )

ttvex
05-28-2009, 12:17 PM
I know Amelia, and I agree. And I am grateful that AIC does that. I however, would prefer not to recount my own discrimination experience. I try not to think about them or re-live them and I know that emotion will probably get the better of me if I do try to post them.

I was trying to make you all see the 'human side' to it all in a different way, by imagining how it would feel to be discriminated against for something that you couldn't control (see my previous posts, that was what the whole thing was about wasn't it? But apparently the analogy was flawed in that people saw me making a comparison that they simply didn't like).

I think AIC's way of showing the human side has met much better reception. While it really does encourage me to want to share my experiences they are far too gruesome and uncomfortable for this thread and so I will refrain. One bad discriminatory experience should be enough, no?

Don't worry, I know I'm pig-headed. Only when it comes to homosexuality though. I'd think you'd defend yourself with just as much passion if it were you. Especially if it hurt you as much as it hurts me.

Amelia
05-28-2009, 12:21 PM
Yay!!!!!!
We agree! :P
Next time just agree with me from the start and save urself the trouble, I'm always right. :geek:

(and clearly delusional :lol: )

sacky
05-28-2009, 12:32 PM
Yay!!!!!!
We agree! :P
Next time just agree with me from the start and save urself the trouble, I'm always right. :geek:

(and clearly delusional :lol: )

:lol: :lol: :lol: woman is boss

kayt
05-28-2009, 12:32 PM
dancerboy, believe me I get it. I know the difference between lack of approval and lack of respect. I keep using the example of people who's worship practices involve idols because the religious objection is equally virulent among Christians and muslims. A Christian may not approve of his Hindu neighbour pouring milk over the lingam as part of his worship. A Christian may not want to attend a puja or eat food from it. Many Christians believe all Hindus are going to hell and would be DEVASTED if their son or daughter converted to Hindusim.

Yet, how do you treat with your Hindu neighbour? That is what TOLERANCE is about. And religion unlike sexual orientation is a CHOICE. We actually respect people's CHOICE to act how they feel best in their spiritual life. Far less something determined by a whole bunch of biological and environmental factors.

So YES I understand you honestly do not HATE gay people, nor wish them ill, nor will do ill to them just because you may not personally approve of whatever it is you don't approave about us.

Also just also clear up this, "act of homosexuality" people keep harping about. Gay people do no more or no less than what MANY straight people do in their beds.

When I meet straight people I don't even want to THINK of what they are doing in private with their partners. It's NONE OF MY BUSINESS! Even when I see serious PDA going on, I don't jump there in my mind.

Why is it that you jump THERE in your mind when it comes to gays and lesbians? I've always wanted to ask.


I've been up with beliefs that homosexuality is wrong according to my family's religion. As a young person I did not know of any same sex couples personally. Now as an adult I do. There's even one in the family. Since I see the person as an individual first there was no shock or horror when finding out there was a same sex relationship going on. I see no problem with what two consenting adults do with their sex lives. I'm now aware that there are a variety of sexual practices and that what may suite one couple may not suite another. I know my parents did have sex after all they did have me and my siblings but I do not want to know all the details. That was their business. What anyone does regarding sex as long as its consential is their business and I do not need/want to know the details.

dancerboy
05-28-2009, 12:53 PM
I know Amelia, and I agree. And I am grateful that AIC does that. I however, would prefer not to recount my own discrimination experience. I try not to think about them or re-live them and I know that emotion will probably get the better of me if I do try to post them.

I was trying to make you all see the 'human side' to it all in a different way, by imagining how it would feel to be discriminated against for something that you couldn't control (see my previous posts, that was what the whole thing was about wasn't it? But apparently the analogy was flawed in that people saw me making a comparison that they simply didn't like).

I think AIC's way of showing the human side has met much better reception. While it really does encourage me to want to share my experiences they are far too gruesome and uncomfortable for this thread and so I will refrain. One bad discriminatory experience should be enough, no?

Don't worry, I know I'm pig-headed. Only when it comes to homosexuality though. I'd think you'd defend yourself with just as much passion if it were you. Especially if it hurt you as much as it hurts me.

AIC,TTVEX, you keep saying that you had no choice in being gay, or being a lesbian. But the jury is still with that verdict. And there-in lies the problem. Your hypothesis is not emphatically confirmed. Because there are lots of people who do not think "you have no choice".

DANCERBOY

ttvex
05-28-2009, 12:57 PM
This is true dancer boy, but I don't need a jury to tell me I had a choice. I'm pretty much certain, like only 100% certain, that I didn't choose it. I mean, I'm sure I would have remembered making that decision. lol.

alieninthecaribbean
05-28-2009, 01:12 PM
AIC,TTVEX, you keep saying that you had no choice in being gay, or being a lesbian. But the jury is still with that verdict. And there-in lies the problem. Your hypothesis is not emphatically confirmed. Because there are lots of people who do not think "you have no choice".


I disagree. The only people the jury is out for are those with a religious-led anti-gay agenda who continue to assert it is a choice even to the point of driving countless young people to suicide trying to force them to change.

As far as the respected medical establishment is concerned, so far, their peer reviewed research points to a complex mix of innate factors playing a major role and perhaps also environment. The description on the American Psychological Website here...


According to current scientific and professional understanding, the core attractions that form the basis for adult sexual orientation typically emerge between middle childhood and early adolescence. These patterns of emotional, romantic, and sexual attraction may arise without any prior sexual experience. People can be celibate and still know their sexual orientation-–be it lesbian, gay, bisexual, or heterosexual.

describes PERFECTLY my experience growing up. At no point did I EVER choose to be lesbian. I simply realised that I was. The ONLY choice I had was to hide or disclose it. Act according to my nature or against it.

That's the honest truth, straight from the horses mouth. :mrgreen: You can either accept it or continue to assert your theory, if it so vital to your arguements against homosexuality.

Not that it is BTW. Even if it WAS a choice, people should be able to choose which consenting adult to sleep with and not be discriminated against for it.

ttvex
05-28-2009, 01:15 PM
Just like they can choose their religion and not be discriminated against it.

alieninthecaribbean
05-28-2009, 01:23 PM
Exactly ttvex. ;)

The ONLY way you can have any kind of civil society for a diverse group of people- Christians, muslims, hindus, pagans, atheists, men, women, children, gay, straight, black, white and everything in between, is where everyone can, enjoy freedom of self actualisation and civil liberties are not determined by one or two group's religion but by what is socially, ethically and communally beneficial to ALL.

In other words, the UN declaration of the individual rights of man.

dancerboy
05-28-2009, 03:04 PM
Exactly ttvex. ;)

The ONLY way you can have any kind of civil society for a diverse group of people- Christians, muslims, hindus, pagans, atheists, men, women, children, gay, straight, black, white and everything in between, is where everyone can, enjoy freedom of self actualisation and civil liberties are not determined by one or two group's religion but by what is socially, ethically and communally beneficial to ALL.

In other words, the UN declaration of the individual rights of man.

AIC, TTVEX, my friends, (i am not trying to be funny), but the arguments being proffered here reminds me of the arguments being proffered by some religions to support the shift in some of their beliefs.
The anglican(episcopalian, in the US) is softening its messsage, and teachings to accommodate their gay, and lesbian priests. The catholic church is literally splitting over the issue of their priest not marrying. Two weeks ago a catholic priest was seen cavorting with his "LOVER" in south beach FLORIDA. The diocese wants him out, but he is getting vocal support from the spanish community. And they are die-hard catholics. The national baptist in the US is now grappling with women being ordained as pastors. They are all taking a second, third, and even fourth look at the scriptures, to see if there is any way they could save face, for this about face thinking. It is becoming increasingly difficult for these churches to maintain their doctrines in the face of a rapidly changing world. It's very interesting to see how this all will climax. Or it just may not climax, it might just hang in social purgatory, for a long time.

DANCERBOY

alieninthecaribbean
05-28-2009, 03:30 PM
My arguement is completely secular.

That issue within those churches you refer to, has more to do with how they choose to treat with scripture and doctrine. Among Christians, there are several ways they treat with scripture:

Sola scriptura- The bible is not only inspired but infallible, unchangeable word of God and every single bit of it must be applied as such. Most if not all, accounts are LITERAL- e.g. Adam and Eve, the earth was created in 6 literal days, all species of animals in an ark etc. All decrees, opinions etc are rules to be legalistically applied to believers. Since it represents God's mind, it can be used as such as a tool of decision and judgement.

The problem this causes is WHO gets to determine final interpretations of things. (Hence all the different sects who all believe in sola scriptura)

Scripture informed by reason- The bible is inspired but not infallible. It has limitations of the culture and primative thinking of its writers as well as human tampering (copying and translating) Human intellect and discernment must be applied while using it as a spiritual tool/guide. Science is valid. Many accounts are analogies. Christ is the Word, not the bible, which should not be used legalistically because that would be re-creating the burden of the Law which Christ freed people from.

The problem this causes is which parts are true and which aren't. When is something just opinion or inspired.

Those are basically the two positions that are at war with each other and causing the schism.

But again, my stance is completely outside these two positions.

dancerboy
05-28-2009, 03:40 PM
My arguement is completely secular.

That issue within those churches you refer to, has more to do with how they choose to treat with scripture and doctrine. Among Christians, there are several ways they treat with scripture:

Sola scriptura- The bible is not only inspired but infallible, unchangeable word of God and every single bit of it must be applied as such. Most if not all, accounts are LITERAL- e.g. Adam and Eve, the earth was created in 6 literal days, all species of animals in an ark etc. All decrees, opinions etc are rules to be legalistically applied to believers. Since it represents God's mind, it can be used as such as a tool of decision and judgement.

The problem this causes is WHO gets to determine final interpretations of things. (Hence all the different sects who all believe in sola scriptura)

Scripture informed by reason- The bible is inspired but not infallible. It has limitations of the culture and primative thinking of its writers as well as human tampering (copying and translating) Human intellect and discernment must be applied while using it as a spiritual tool/guide. Science is valid. Many accounts are analogies. Christ is the Word, not the bible, which should not be used legalistically because that would be re-creating the burden of the Law which Christ freed people from.

The problem this causes is which parts are true and which aren't. When is something just opinion or inspired.

Those are basically the two positions that are at war with each other and causing the schism.

But again, my stance is completely outside these two positions.

AIC my friend, apparently you mis-construed my post. I know your argument is secular. But i am saying the same way the churches are now reviewing their beliefs, and teachings to accommodate the changes among their pastors, priests, and congregants; so too are gays, and lesbians changing what we have been taught, and believed all our life to accommodate homosexuality. Unless you think all that we were taught, and believed were wrong.

DANCERBOY

Double Trouble
05-28-2009, 11:24 PM
Just like they can choose their religion and not be discriminated against it.

vexman,

You keep trying to convince us that being gay shouldn't be any different than someone being a Christian, Hindu or Muslim. In my books it's not as cut and dry as that.

While I respect your right as an adult to have sex that I may consider to be deviant, in the privacy of your home, don't keep trying to make us believe that this is normal behaviour. Don't hold hands in public! Don't grope each other in public! Don't be in our faces and expect us to not notice or be revolted by acts we consider to be unatural. Bang each other silly, using whatever orifice is in reach, just don't expect applause from us who believe in the concept of man and woman. I don't hate gays or subscribe to the idea of violence against them but I resent the pressure being put on us to embrace homosexuality. Before you say bottoms up, someone will be pushing peadophillia as the "next" normal.

ttvex
05-29-2009, 05:40 AM
Aye double trouble. I hear your point, and I agree. But I believe it is more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

1) I am not saying being gay is the same as people choosing to be Christian or Hindu etc. In fact, in my personal opinion it is completely different because I didn't CHOOSE to be gay but these people can choose their religion. What I am saying is that each religious body is taught that their own religion is the right one (obviously) yet they show complete tolerance of other religious bodies, many of which go completely against their own teachings. Other religions whose practices are completely against their own, yet socially they speak to and treat people of these religions politely and with respect.

2) I am not trying to make you believe it is normal. I know for a fact that for me, homosexuality came to be normally. As it is with AIC. Whether you believe it is normal or not is completely your choice.

3) ''Don't hold hands in public'' - this is where I have a problem with your post. How can you tell one group of people that they are not allowed to show affection in public? Is the public domain owned by someone specific? Is it run by one religion or one sect of society. The public is as much mine as it is your and I think homosexuals should be just as free to do as much as heterosexuals are free to do in publin without fear for their lives

4) I understand you don't mind gays once they keep it in the bedroom, but that right there is the root of much of this problem. No one wants you to applause when you see two gays holding hands or kissing in public. You can in fact find it 'revolting' as you say if you want. I find it revolting when two young heterosexuals go at it in public myself. BUT I cannot go and call them names, or throw things at them or beat them up for it. It is their right. I want the same right for gays. You don't have to agree with it, but we should be allowed to do it. I don't want you to embrace it, just be tolerant of it.

5) I have kept this post VERY civil. BUT DOUBLE TROUBLE, I will revert to my 'vexman' self if you try to compare RAPE (paedophilia) with homosexuality again. I had to take deep breaths when I saw that post. Most paedophiles belong to YOUR group sir, that is right, HETEROSEXUALS. They want to have sex with children (period) not boys specifically or girls though there are some homosexual paedphiles as well. The entire practice is disgusting because it involves an adult having sexual relations for a CHILD, someone who cannot consent to those relations and who is not physically/emotionally or intellectually ready for such an act. It is rape. That being said, there will be rapists, abusers, drug addicts and criminals who are both heterosexuals and homosexuals, let us try NOT to mix things up here. We are talking about heterosexual rights and homosexual rights. If you think paedophilia has any place whatsoever in this discussion let me know and I will point you in the right direction where you can read up on paedophilia.

Angie
05-29-2009, 07:22 AM
1) I am not saying being gay is the same as people choosing to be Christian or Hindu etc. In fact, in my personal opinion it is completely different because I didn't CHOOSE to be gay but these people can choose their religion. What I am saying is that each religious body is taught that their own religion is the right one (obviously) yet they show complete tolerance of other religious bodies, many of which go completely against their own teachings. Other religions whose practices are completely against their own, yet socially they speak to and treat people of these religions politely and with respect.

You are joking right?

Did anyone hold a gun to your head and or forced you in anyway at all to have sex with the someone of the same gender as you? If you answer "no" then it was YOUR CHOICE to do so.

My son in Law owns and operates a Club in Raleigh and there are a lot of Gays/Lesbians who goes there. I spoke to a few of them so I can have an understanding of their sexual preference. The two most profound statements made by them were "I get more sexual satisfaction from being with man than I would being with a woman" and "I feel better about myself being in the role of a woman and not as a man"

IMHO based on the 8 or so conversations I had ... Homosexuality is CHOICE made based on a persons preference of one sex over the other, because of personal sexual satisfaction.

IMHO, it is very deceitful to compare a personal preference for selfish reasons with a choice of Religion that encourages Spiritual growth and the instilling of values that encourages someone to be compassionate to others, to love God and to strive toward perfection as human beings.

IMHO, sexual relations with the same gender is better compared to an addiction to alcohol, tobacco and drugs. It is a personal and physical act engaged in for physical satisfaction regardless of whether it is socially or Spiritually acceptable or not.

ttvex
05-29-2009, 07:49 AM
Well YHO doesnt mean S*** to me :) and no I am not joking, did you see a 'haha' anywhere? Perhaps you find this matter funny?

Saltfish, while you may have spoken to a few gays (more likely BISEXUALS and TRANSEXUALS from the sound of the conversation) I actually AM GAY so I am TELLING you, not asking you, that is not by choice. Let me ask you this, did you CHOOSE to be straight? ''Homosexuality is CHOICE made based on a persons preference of one sex over the other, because of personal sexual satisfaction.'' - based on that statement, your heterosexuality is a choice too. Clearly.

I do not get MORE sexual satisfaction from being with a man than being with a woman. I CANNOT be with a woman. Can you? Can you force yourself to be sexually attracted to a woman? Do you think its just a choice that you choose to be with a man instead? In which case, maybe you need to go get yourself checked out. As a man, I have a definite indicator of what I am attracted to. I do not expect you to understand this being a heterosexual woman but I will explain anyways. I have a part of my body that AUTOMATICALLY responds to certain stimuli, I cannot control it, I cannot even try to control it. I know I am attracted to men, I did not choose to be attracted to them. How on earth can a person CHOOSE that. Think for a second nah, seriously. CHOOSING ATTRACTION? For a grown woman I'd expect a more intelligent stance.

Just like you feel sexually attracted to men (I assume) and you cannot even imagine trying to be sexually attracted to a woman (I assume again) it is the same for me. Did I CHOOSE to engage in sexual acts - DUH! It's not like I was overtaken by a spirit and forced to have sex. I am saying being GAY is NOT A CHOICE, engaging in gay sex is a choice, if that is your point I agree and I don't see why you had to make it, it's pretty much common sense. I think AIC or myself have posted evidence, scientific evidence, that sexuality is not based on a person's choice, you should go check the other posts.

And I think my point is just a tad bit more valid. Where you may base your assumptions on your '8 conversations' I have a lifetime of homosexuality and MANY MANY MANY homosexual friends with whom I have had probably more than 800 conversations with each.
The people you spoke to, the first one sounds bisexual as he can get sexual satisfaction from a woman, that is not a gay man. Get the facts straight (no pun intended).

And the second man, he has gender identity/role issues, he wishes to fulfil the role of a woman, that is not the general stance of gay men, that is his own personal preference. While he may prefer to fill the role of a woman, that is not synonymous with choosing to be sexually attracted to men. How can you skew things so much to suit your own agenda? Just state facts for once.

I love being a man, I am into cars, football, sports, I workout, if you see me on the street you can't tell I am gay but that is just how I naturally am. I have no plan to play 'the role of a woman' that is my CHOICE but I did not CHOOSE to be sexually attracted to men. Besides that statement alone is sexist. What is the role of a woman nowadays. Roles have been skewed and crossed, many men stay at home with children and many women hold the bread winning jobs of families today.

Either way, don't base your assumption on 8 conversations you have had please. It is very narrow minded to generalise a population of millions based on 8 conversations.

''it is very deceitful to compare a personal preference for selfish reasons with a choice of Religion that encourages Spiritual growth and the instilling of values that encourages someone to be compassionate to others, to love God and to strive toward perfection as human beings.'' - as a gay man, my homosexuality has lead me to become tolerant of all different types of people. I have found fulfilling love in another human being and am at peace spiritually. I have become compassionate to others and really learnt how to co-exist with things and with people I may not accept, but I know they have an equal right to be here like myself. I think your entire modus operendi is deceitful IMHO.

''sexual relations with the same gender is better compared to an addiction to alcohol, tobacco and drugs. It is a personal and physical act engaged in for physical satisfaction regardless of whether it is socially or Spiritually acceptable or not.'' --- that is your personal opinion and clearly no amount of logic will change that. No one really cares, we just want equal rights and equal treatment. You can think what you want, it is irrelevant. And homosexuality is socially and spiritually acceptable in many places. Whether you dislike or like gays or homosexuality is not really a topic for discussion, it is your own CHOICE. We are fighting for something on a legal stance, for protection from abuse from persons like yourself, who fail to understand homosexuality. In the process we may ask for understanding but it is not a pre-requisite to equality.

COLOUR RECOMENDATIONS COURTESY SALTFISH YOUR VERY OWN FONT NAZI

nice? yuh get yuh wish.

Angie
05-29-2009, 07:58 AM
Seriously, I would love to respond to your post .. but I am NOT going to trouble myself to dicipher what I said from what you are saying.

There is a "bold" feature and there are color features, kindly use them.

ttvex
05-29-2009, 08:17 AM
No. My CHOICE.

Angie
05-29-2009, 08:24 AM
No. My CHOICE.

And you expect people to try and understand your point of view :roll: :roll: :roll: Is it any wonder people ...as you say ... like me to be understanding of and accept people like you :roll: :roll: :roll:

STEUPS :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

ttvex
05-29-2009, 08:39 AM
The medicine not sweet when you get a taste yourself eh! Is joke saltfish, joke! That one I was joking about, thought you would have picked that up ENT?
Look I change it, just for you darling.

Chicabonita
05-29-2009, 09:36 AM
TTvex, do you think "bisexuals", transgenders, transvestites and "feminine" gays (those who speak and act like women) were born that way too?

sacky
05-29-2009, 09:50 AM
so it all comes down to sexual urges,and not the need to procreate as is the normal function of life ?

Angie
05-29-2009, 10:12 AM
The medicine not sweet when you get a taste yourself eh! Is joke saltfish, joke! That one I was joking about, thought you would have picked that up ENT?
Look I change it, just for you darling.

WHAT MEDICINE :?: I do not need to convince anyone about the naturalness of being homosexual or homosexuals should have the same rights to choose as the Religious or the "straights" etc.

So if you think by being condescending to anyone is going to help your cause in evoking sympathy or campassion for your cause or the cause of homosexuals ... then you will forever be treated as "freaks" and whatever names Society decide to brand you with.

No skin off my back MAN, I am very "straight"

ttvex
05-29-2009, 10:21 AM
oh gooosh, is bess saltfish rename herself to vexfish! Don't get your panti's in a bundle sweetie. And of all people you should be LAST to be talking about condescending.

Who does give, really can't take!

So if you think by being condescending to anyone is going to help your cause in evoking sympathy or campassion for your cause or the cause of homosexuals ... then you will forever be treated as "freaks" and whatever names Society decide to brand you with. - thats alright salty, society will also always treat people like you like ''ignorami.'' It aint a perfect world!

Chicabonita
05-29-2009, 10:22 AM
TTvex,...waiting for a reply on my question, thanks.

ttvex
05-29-2009, 10:39 AM
TTvex, do you think "bisexuals", transgenders, transvestites and "feminine" gays (those who speak and act like women) were born that way too?

Chica I cannot say. I am neither of those so I cannot speak on behalf of them. What I 'think' will just be my own personal opinion and based on no previous experience or evidence.

Granted that, if you still wish to know what 'I think' about those issues, my answer is yes. I believe bisexuals naturally are attracted to both sexes and so can choose which sex to be sexually active with, a very different experience to homosexuality. You may want to look up 'bi-curous' and 'bisexual' as terms. Some of it is sexual experimentation, some of it is natural desire.

I believe transgenders naturally believe themselves to be trapped in the wrong sexual body (Indeed they have gender identity issues and a transgender man believes he is meant to be a woman and vice versa).

Transvestites are not all gay, in fact many are STRAIGHT men. Transvestism is more of a sexual fetish than it is something that the person can or cannot control, it is like saying you prefer outdoor sex to indoor sex, or you prefer using toys in your sexlife or whatever fetish people have nowadays. It is just a matter of their own sexual fetish. In fact, just last week on Britain's Got Talent, there was a straight tranvsvestite who makes his living dressing in drag. He has both a wife and a son.

With regards to feminine gays, some say that they are just acting like what comes naturally to them. But when we look at behaviour we know that behaviour is influenced by many things. I doubt many 'gansta' acting straight men just naturally act that way cause they were born to act that way. Behaviour is influenced by what we see, what we experience and what we believe. I am sure there are other factors, but despite that, they are not putting on a show, just being themselves.

All those things are very very different to homosexuality. Some may be subsets or overlap, but in the end it is a totally different scenario. I cannot choose to be attracted to a woman, therefore I cannot choose to have sex with her (the equipment just wont respond). Bisexuals are honestly ATTRACTED to both sexes, both sexes do it for them. Transgenders do not want to be gay, a male transgender wants to be a female, loving a man and a femal transgender wants to be a straight man, loving a woman. Tranvestites do so just for sexual gratification, they can be gay or straight, but it is a fetish, just like some people may be turned on by certain body parts or whatever.

Anyways thats MY own opinion on those things, anyone can feel free to contradict them (indeed I suspect saltfish is lurking in the background waiting to contradict everything that comes out of my mouth).

Chicabonita
05-29-2009, 10:48 AM
Thanks for stating your opinion, although it seems like in most of these cases is entirely psychological in my view (particularly transvestites).

Angie
05-29-2009, 11:10 AM
oh gooosh, is bess saltfish rename herself to vexfish! Don't get your panti's in a bundle sweetie. At the ripe old age of 55 I wear THONGS Darling, :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :!: And of all people you should be LAST to be talking about condescending.

Who does give, really can't take! Give what, I am not the one who want anyone to understand me, I am not the one who lives in a perpetual state of having to defend my sexual preference or orientation .... You are, and as far I can see are NOT having any luck at all.

So if you think by being condescending to anyone is going to help your cause in evoking sympathy or campassion for your cause or the cause of homosexuals ... then you will forever be treated as "freaks" and whatever names Society decide to brand you with. - thats alright salty, society will also always treat people like you like ''ignorami.'' It aint a perfect world!


You mean the GAY society ... right, because according to Society [not the GAYS] see me as natural :roll: :roll: :roll:

Simple fact is .. obviously you are here to plead your cause for equal treatment ... am I right or wrong? ..... , Just about everyone have agreed your bedroom business is just that, and I have already said it over and over, AS HUMAN BEINGS< YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO EQUAL TREATMENT.

Here is a suggestion ... take that acceptance, run with it and try to convince us, people like me why homosexuality should be accepted.

alieninthecaribbean
05-29-2009, 11:19 AM
From what I am observing from posters like Saltfish, there is a LOT of confusion about what sexual orientation is. She claims to have expert understanding of the matter because of speaking to a few gays and lesbians in her cousin’s gay bar but from what I am gathering she makes NO distinction between sexual orientation and sexual acts.

Let me explain the difference...and since referring too much to sex and body parts, even in an educational context, is now taboo on the board, I will try my best to do so in an EASY TO UNDERSTAND way albeit euphemistical. Here it goes first, sexual orientation:

All you red blooded hetero males out there. If Halle Berry (substitute your dream girl here) stripped naked and gave you the GREEN LIGHT. Do you have to stop and think to make that certain part of you respond? Or does it just happen naturally? Do you have ANY control over that? How about when your heart flutters and the blood rushes to your head?

There is NOTHING as honest as THAT particular physical reaction. It is one of nature’s most automatic and instinctive reactions and it “points” (pardon my pun) to directly what you orientation is.

Now...imagine if you got that reaction ONLY with the same sex and not with the opposite sex. My question is: How is that a choice?

Now the reason some people treat with gay people like we too are heterosexuals deep down, who just BEING OWN WAY because we like VICE, is because of a lack of understanding of the difference between sexual orientation and sexual acts. So let me explain the difference:

Human sexuality is a complex thing and quite a few people, not many, can with enough mental blocking or using alcohol or drugs or fantasies or pushed by rage and violence, manage to perform sexually OUTSIDE their sexual orientation. It happens in the porn industry. It happens in prison. It happens when gay men marry straight women to hide their orientation. Those of you who saw Brokeback Mountain will recall when the wife asked her closeted gay husband why he never wanted to look at her during lovemaking. Why? He needed to think of a man (sexual orientation coming into play here) in order to perform (a sexual act).

A sexual act, you can choose. A sexual orientation is whom you are naturally emotionally and sexually drawn to. It is NOT a choice. And further more, you guys already KNOW this. How?

You know because you cannot HELP but be naturally attracted to the gender you are attracted to. Am I right? Straight men, you cannot help that a woman completes, satisfies and triggers everything in you and a man just does not do it. Well, neither can I. And believe me, I have TRIED and I apoligized later to the guys who were the guinea pigs of me trying to suss myself out (not that they minded).

I completely understand what those gays and lesbians were trying to tell Saltfish, even if she did not. We grow up in a heterosexual world and told this is how it is SUPPSOED to be, so of course, we try to perform as heterosexuals do even though it does not come naturally to us. Sometimes it is ONLY when we literally "see for ourselves" it eh working so, we realise our true nature can only be expressed if we live according to it.

ttvex, sweetie. Live in your truth. Love who you are. Do not let other people’s intolerance and lack of understanding make you become distressed. Just as you expect them to understand where you are coming from, understand where their feelings of disgust and intolerance are coming from. Then let it go, forgive and be the opposite of hate and intolerance.

Stay strong honey! xoxo

dancerboy
05-29-2009, 11:42 AM
Well YHO doesnt mean S*** to me :) and no I am not joking, did you see a 'haha' anywhere? Perhaps you find this matter funny?

Saltfish, while you may have spoken to a few gays (more likely BISEXUALS and TRANSEXUALS from the sound of the conversation) I actually AM GAY so I am TELLING you, not asking you, that is not by choice. Let me ask you this, did you CHOOSE to be straight? ''Homosexuality is CHOICE made based on a persons preference of one sex over the other, because of personal sexual satisfaction.'' - based on that statement, your heterosexuality is a choice too. Clearly.

I do not get MORE sexual satisfaction from being with a man than being with a woman. I CANNOT be with a woman. Can you? Can you force yourself to be sexually attracted to a woman? Do you think its just a choice that you choose to be with a man instead? In which case, maybe you need to go get yourself checked out. As a man, I have a definite indicator of what I am attracted to. I do not expect you to understand this being a heterosexual woman but I will explain anyways. I have a part of my body that AUTOMATICALLY responds to certain stimuli, I cannot control it, I cannot even try to control it. I know I am attracted to men, I did not choose to be attracted to them. How on earth can a person CHOOSE that. Think for a second nah, seriously. CHOOSING ATTRACTION? For a grown woman I'd expect a more intelligent stance.

Just like you feel sexually attracted to men (I assume) and you cannot even imagine trying to be sexually attracted to a woman (I assume again) it is the same for me. Did I CHOOSE to engage in sexual acts - DUH! It's not like I was overtaken by a spirit and forced to have sex. I am saying being GAY is NOT A CHOICE, engaging in gay sex is a choice, if that is your point I agree and I don't see why you had to make it, it's pretty much common sense. I think AIC or myself have posted evidence, scientific evidence, that sexuality is not based on a person's choice, you should go check the other posts.

And I think my point is just a tad bit more valid. Where you may base your assumptions on your '8 conversations' I have a lifetime of homosexuality and MANY MANY MANY homosexual friends with whom I have had probably more than 800 conversations with each.
The people you spoke to, the first one sounds bisexual as he can get sexual satisfaction from a woman, that is not a gay man. Get the facts straight (no pun intended).

And the second man, he has gender identity/role issues, he wishes to fulfil the role of a woman, that is not the general stance of gay men, that is his own personal preference. While he may prefer to fill the role of a woman, that is not synonymous with choosing to be sexually attracted to men. How can you skew things so much to suit your own agenda? Just state facts for once.

I love being a man, I am into cars, football, sports, I workout, if you see me on the street you can't tell I am gay but that is just how I naturally am. I have no plan to play 'the role of a woman' that is my CHOICE but I did not CHOOSE to be sexually attracted to men. Besides that statement alone is sexist. What is the role of a woman nowadays. Roles have been skewed and crossed, many men stay at home with children and many women hold the bread winning jobs of families today.

Either way, don't base your assumption on 8 conversations you have had please. It is very narrow minded to generalise a population of millions based on 8 conversations.

''it is very deceitful to compare a personal preference for selfish reasons with a choice of Religion that encourages Spiritual growth and the instilling of values that encourages someone to be compassionate to others, to love God and to strive toward perfection as human beings.'' - as a gay man, my homosexuality has lead me to become tolerant of all different types of people. I have found fulfilling love in another human being and am at peace spiritually. I have become compassionate to others and really learnt how to co-exist with things and with people I may not accept, but I know they have an equal right to be here like myself. I think your entire modus operendi is deceitful IMHO.

''sexual relations with the same gender is better compared to an addiction to alcohol, tobacco and drugs. It is a personal and physical act engaged in for physical satisfaction regardless of whether it is socially or Spiritually acceptable or not.'' --- that is your personal opinion and clearly no amount of logic will change that. No one really cares, we just want equal rights and equal treatment. You can think what you want, it is irrelevant. And homosexuality is socially and spiritually acceptable in many places. Whether you dislike or like gays or homosexuality is not really a topic for discussion, it is your own CHOICE. We are fighting for something on a legal stance, for protection from abuse from persons like yourself, who fail to understand homosexuality. In the process we may ask for understanding but it is not a pre-requisite to equality.

COLOUR RECOMENDATIONS COURTESY SALTFISH YOUR VERY OWN FONT NAZI

nice? yuh get yuh wish.
TTVEX my friend, you say:" As a gay man, my homosexuality has lead me to become tolerant of all different types of people". So prior to becoming gay, you were not "tolerant of all different types of people". So why are you expecting us who are not gays, or lesbians to be tolerant of you". (And i think we are). Maybe if, (or when,one never knows) we become gay, or lesbian, we will be toleranty of other "types of people". You know TTVEX, you are doing the same thing these people who are "SAVED" do. When i left T&T in 1967, i had a brother who uses to run woman, play horse, in short he was "a man of the world". I returned to T&T in 1968, and walked in his house with a beer in my hand. My brother politely told me that, that was forbidden in his home, since "I AM NOW SAVED". And every opportunity he gets, he tries to convert me. When he was carousing, there was no problem with my religion (anglican), but once he became "SAVED", I WAS THE DEVIL INCARNATE. So now TTVEX my friend, since you are gay, anybody who can't see eye to eye with you,"they are the devil incarnate"

DANCERBOY

alieninthecaribbean
05-29-2009, 11:57 AM
Dancerboy,

ttvex, in many ways reminds me of some of the well intentioned but militant, Afro-centric students I knew. They just discovered their heritage and the extent of prejudice out there. Everyhwere they looked, they were seeing racism, even in cases where there was none. They were always on the warpath and so easily baited by racists who knew how to push their buttons.

Be that as it may, it in no way invalidates their struggle and the actual authentic experiences of discrimination and hatred. But it does make it easier to dismiss because the messenger is not thick-skinned enough and comes across the wrong way.

It takes MATURITY, FORGIVENESS and a STRONG SPIRITUAL CENTRE to attack injustice and intolerance from a place of inner-peace, calm and objectivity so you can be less of a [smilie=ireful2.gif] Lois Farrakhan and more of a :D Martin Luther King.

It eh easy believe me, especially when you encounter some of the most ignorant, hateful words and actions imaginable.

Chicabonita
05-29-2009, 02:13 PM
Alien, I think many of us understand and agree with a sexual act being a choice. You mentioned something interesting though about the physical aspect of the attraction. If you are implying someone does not choose to feel turn on when they see someone from the opposite sex they find attractive, what about pedophiles when they are "physically turn on" when they see a child? Are you saying that it is a natural thing (not a choice) for these people to feel like that? Are they unable to control it? I know there are two different topics but I am curious about the extent of your belief in what can be a choice and what can't.

alieninthecaribbean
05-29-2009, 02:48 PM
Ah! Pedophilia, the thing people immediately jump to in any conversation about gay people.

Certainly, a pedophile may feel sexually attracted to children BUT Pedophilia is classified as a sexual dysfunction by medical professionals and here's why:

A child is not sexually mature emotionally and physically. A child cannot fully understand, appreciate nor return the sexual relationship a pedophile seeks. Therefore, in order for the pedophile to pursue his attraction, he literally has to "de-construct" the child and turn the child into an object with which he can sexually interact in TOTAL inconsideration of whether or not the child even WANTS or is capable of making such a decision.

It is no different than taking sexual advantage of say...a mentally retarded person or an animal.

This is not a sexually equitable or ethical relationship as it is stronger preying on weaker, and so is classifed as a dysfunction. It is predatory and self-dillusionary in nature. The pedophile must DELUDE himself that the child actually WANTS this and he has a RIGHT to take it. Since the act of child molestation also inflicts emotional, physical and sexual damage on a victim who is weaker, it is also a criminal offence.

I am quoting from "Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons". Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7 Groth, A.N., & Birnbaum, H.J. It is one of the most respected documents on the subject:


Pedophilia and hebephilia are diagnostic labels that refer to psychological attractions. Not all pedophiles and hebephiles actually molest children; an adult can be attracted to children or adolescents without ever actually engaging in sexual contact with them.

Typologies of offenders have often included a distinction between those with an enduring primary preference for children as sexual partners and those who have established age-appropriate relationships but become sexually involved with children under unusual circumstances of extreme stress. Perpetrators in the first category – those with a more or less exclusive interest in children – have been labeled FIXATED Many clinicians view fixated offenders as being "stuck" at an early stage of psychological development. They cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.

This 'fixated" category is what I personally suspect applies to Michael Jackson, if he molested those boys. Okay... it continues...


By contrast, other molesters are described as regressed. Regression is "a temporary or permanent appearance of primitive behavior after more mature forms of expression had been attained," Regressed offenders have developed an adult sexual orientation but under certain conditions (such as extreme stress) they return to an earlier, less mature psychological state and engage in sexual contact with children.

This is the type of pedophile that scares me because they can be your married relative or neighbour.

Pedophilia has absolutely nothing in common with two adults who mutually seek the best interests of one another. When a pedophile chooses to act on his attraction it becomes about power, control and selfish sexual gratification at the expense of another human being.

The vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual by the way or at least according to research are fully capable of having adult heterosexual relationships, even the ones who molest children of the same gender.

This is why I tell people who are scared of gays that statistically speaking, their child's virtue is probably safer in the unsupervised company of a drag queen than their married uncle who has kids. ;)

alieninthecaribbean
05-29-2009, 03:00 PM
Chicabonita, Some good sources of peer reviewed research on the subject are:

"Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons". Archives of Sexual Behavior by Groth, A.N., & Birnbaum, H.J.

"Heterosexuality, homosexuality, and erotic age preference". The Journal of Sex Research, Freund, K., Watson, R., & Rienzo,

Is it true that gay men habitually go for younger sexual partners? ABSOLUTELY. But the same can also be said for straight men. We have constant teacher scandals. We have this "school-girl" fantasy many straight men have. We have octogenarians marrying women young enough to be their granddaughter. I can remember when Britney Spears just came on the scene at 15, the amount of hard-back, old men drooling, it was disgusting.

This seems to be more of a MALE thing than a GAY or STRAIGHT thing. Men have a weaker age filter because their trigger for sexual attraction is mainly visual. So if it looks old enough, they are game.

Women on the other hand (most of us anyway) require emotional factors for attraction to happen and some kind of status that shows ability to protect, provide and co-parent. We have also been socialised to "mother" those younger than we are. Therefore an immature young person simply does not do it for most women.

It's fascinating stuff! Go inform yourself! ;)

Chicabonita
05-29-2009, 03:29 PM
Ah! Pedophilia, the thing people immediately jump to in any conversation about gay people.

Certainly, a pedophile may feel sexually attracted to children BUT Pedophilia is classified as a sexual dysfunction by medical professionals and here's why:

A child is not sexually mature emotionally and physically. A child cannot fully understand, appreciate nor return the sexual relationship a pedophile seeks. Therefore, in order for the pedophile to pursue his attraction, he literally has to "de-construct" the child and turn the child into an object with which he can sexually interact in TOTAL inconsideration of whether or not the child even WANTS or is capable of making such a decision.

It is no different than taking sexual advantage of say...a mentally retarded person or an animal.

This is not a sexually equitable or ethical relationship as it is stronger preying on weaker, and so is classifed as a dysfunction. It is predatory and self-dillusionary in nature. The pedophile must DELUDE himself that the child actually WANTS this and he has a RIGHT to take it. Since the act of child molestation also inflicts emotional, physical and sexual damage on a victim who is weaker, it is also a criminal offence.

I am quoting from "Adult sexual orientation and attraction to underage persons". Archives of Sexual Behavior, 7 Groth, A.N., & Birnbaum, H.J. It is one of the most respected documents on the subject:

[quote]Pedophilia and hebephilia are diagnostic labels that refer to psychological attractions. Not all pedophiles and hebephiles actually molest children; an adult can be attracted to children or adolescents without ever actually engaging in sexual contact with them.

Typologies of offenders have often included a distinction between those with an enduring primary preference for children as sexual partners and those who have established age-appropriate relationships but become sexually involved with children under unusual circumstances of extreme stress. Perpetrators in the first category – those with a more or less exclusive interest in children – have been labeled FIXATED Many clinicians view fixated offenders as being "stuck" at an early stage of psychological development. They cannot be meaningfully described as homosexuals, heterosexuals, or bisexuals (in the usual sense of those terms) because they are not really capable of a relationship with an adult man or woman. Instead of gender, their sexual attractions are based primarily on age. These individuals – who are often characterized as fixated – are attracted to children, not to men or women.

This 'fixated" category is what I personally suspect applies to Michael Jackson, if he molested those boys. Okay... it continues...


By contrast, other molesters are described as regressed. Regression is "a temporary or permanent appearance of primitive behavior after more mature forms of expression had been attained," Regressed offenders have developed an adult sexual orientation but under certain conditions (such as extreme stress) they return to an earlier, less mature psychological state and engage in sexual contact with children.

This is the type of pedophile that scares me because they can be your married relative or neighbour.

Pedophilia has absolutely nothing in common with two adults who mutually seek the best interests of one another. When a pedophile chooses to act on his attraction it becomes about power, control and selfish sexual gratification at the expense of another human being.

The vast majority of pedophiles are heterosexual by the way or at least according to research are fully capable of having adult heterosexual relationships, even the ones who molest children of the same gender.

This is why I tell people who are scared of gays that statistically speaking, their child's virtue is probably safer in the unsupervised company of a drag queen than their married uncle who has kids. ;)[/quote:6l45aqk8]

Alien, I think sometimes you sound quite condescending. My point about pedophiles was not to compare them to gays (believe me, I am quite intelligent and educated), neither was to compare the actual sex act between them and a child compared to two gay adults.

My question was about (specifically) what you mentioned of physically (that part of the body) being turned on when you see someone attractive and that fact being not a choice (according to you) so hence I asked whether pedophiles choose or not to be physically turned on when they see a kid in order to determine the extent of your belief of what is a choice and what is not.

alieninthecaribbean
05-29-2009, 03:42 PM
Sorry if it came across condescending Chica. And I do not doubt you are educated and eloquent :D Trust me, I do not see you like----------> [smilie=crazy.gif]

I am just so tired of the pedophile issue always being brought up on the heels of a gay conversation. So I took the opportunity where I can to educate as it's not just us reading this.

Mia culpa!

From what I can see, a FIXATED pedophile seems basically not to have a choice on whether they are turned on by a child or not. It seems more likely the REGRESSED pedophile does as they are capable of adult sexual relationships.

Chicabonita
05-29-2009, 03:45 PM
Thanks, actually there is a thread where someone makes the link and I am one of the persons saying the person is NOT gay but a pedophile, two completely different things!

alieninthecaribbean
05-29-2009, 03:57 PM
Well I am happy to hear what you did.

Men who consistently molest prepuberscent or immediately post-puberscent boys are by their pathology not interested in women or men and have no adult sexual orientation gay or straight.

But not everyone is as informed as you are, not even our newspapers which often misrepresent such incidents and perpetuating people's ignorance.

sacky
05-29-2009, 06:43 PM
Well I am happy to hear what you did.

Men who consistently molest prepuberscent or immediately post-puberscent boys are by their pathology not interested in women or men and have no adult sexual orientation gay or straight.

But not everyone is as informed as you are, not even our newspapers which often misrepresent such incidents and perpetuating people's ignorance.

EVEN A LESBIAN IS ASSOCIATING PAEDOPHILIA WITH MASCULINITY.wonders if all ills of humanity is male based = prevalence or satistics[no stats of dykes abusing young girls [smilie=dash2.gif]

medic2
05-29-2009, 07:12 PM
I wanted to raise the issue of adoption rights being granted to gay and lesbian couples. What do folks think about it? I know several gay couples who would want to adopt if possible. Any ideas?

Chicabonita
05-29-2009, 07:17 PM
I don't think that happening in the near future here in Trinidad medic2. It is already an issue for some the fact that they want to change the law and make homosexuality "legal" so can you imagine the uproar if they want to adopt children?

medic2
05-29-2009, 07:57 PM
I guess you have a point (about the uproar). But when homosexuality is legalized, I would hope that any legal barriers will fall.
I am aware that adoption by single persons is allowed in T&T, although the scrutiny of prospective male adopters is far more stringent than of prospective females. So even now, it seems possible for single gays and lesbians to adopt.

Chicabonita
05-29-2009, 08:01 PM
That's true and don't think the scrutiny is that high eh, Trinidad seems to be one of those countries where the adoption process don't take 9 to 12 years like in some places around the world.

alieninthecaribbean
06-01-2009, 11:39 AM
I think gays & lesbians should be allowed to adpot. Many of us make great parents and we and infertile straight couples have an advantage many fertile straight couples do not have. We won't ever become parents by accident, whether we want the job or not. If gay people want to raise kids they have to REALLY want that job and have to invest time and money to make it happen. That results in us being invested in being better parents from the start.
BUT...
I don't however think gay people should try to have children through artificial insemination and surrogate means. I can understand if children were conceived accidentally while attempting heterosexual sex. But if you're gay and childless, I think spiritually, communally and environmentally, the universe probably has other plans for you.

That is where I differ a LOT from those in my community. I agree with people like Rupert Everret (a gay British actor) who called gays and lesbians who try to get pregnant through those means, narcissistic.

I think we should just accept the hand nature dealt and realise there MUST be a reason for it. My personal reason is that there will always be more children than there are able and willing heterosexual parents. Millions of children are cast away every year, abandoned, homeless or thrown into foster care.

I think if gay people aren't putting their extra resources (because we do not have that burden of child-rearing) towards cultural, artistic or community enhancement, we should help a kid who has been thrown away, find a loving home. I think a lot of those kids in St. Dominics home and others, where they are so ill-treated would probably fare better in a comfortable home with two loving parents who will nurture their self-esteem, ensure they do well in school and learn how to be productive members of society.

kayt
06-01-2009, 12:09 PM
If they do legalise homosexuality then sure why not allow adoptions. Adoptions are vetted so that minimises the chance of getting neglectful or abusive parents. All children do much better with parent/s that want them and give them a family than growing up in some children's home or orphanage. As it is adoption in TnT seems rare if it does not involve a family friend or relative to place a child. The orphanages are too full.

Angie
06-01-2009, 05:45 PM
WOW! Gays adopting children ... 2 Daddies and no Mommy ...... 2 Mommies and no Daddies go figure.

I have an idea .. how about if the gay men have sex with the gay women, have children and share custody.

kayt
06-01-2009, 06:04 PM
^^Some do have co-parenting arrangements.

alieninthecaribbean
06-02-2009, 11:53 AM
WOW! Gays adopting children ... 2 Daddies and no Mommy ...... 2 Mommies and no Daddies go figure.


Two parents are always better than one, no matter the gender ;)
Unless the person is a superwoman like Obama's mother who helped raise him mostly alone.
If my partner and I ever adopted we'd also make sure they had exposure to postive role models from both genders. She or he would have a host of older uncles, male cousins, godsons and nephews (not that my partner cannot rough and tumble, swim and kick ball with the best of them) Like the saying goes, it takes a village.

That's why I don't think a gay couple who is completely isolated, closeted and cut off from family support and approval should have kids. In fact, I'd say the same about a heterosexual couple too. You need that support to make it work.


I have an idea .. how about if the gay men have sex with the gay women, have children and share custody

I think the "having sex" part would be a major obstacle for most gay men and women, especially since they may be in committed relationships already. But many do the articifial insemination or surrogacy route.

Personally, I prefer adoption. Why create new children when there are already more abandoned or orphaned children than happy homes for them? There are millions of AIDS orphans in Africa who need homes and we not too far behind here in the Caribbean. It's like continuing to pour coffee into an already overflowing cup. :bounce:

Amelia
06-23-2009, 12:15 AM
Not to beat a dead horse, but I came across this article recently and thought it relevant:

Why Some Animals (& People) Are Gay
http://www.time.com/time/health/article ... 37,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1905237,00.html)

letric
06-23-2009, 05:05 AM
Most of the world's greatest thinkers, creative people,writers, poets, painters, have been known to be homosexuals. It is simply a question of who and what they are. Bearing in mind it is not a choice. To accept a homosexual in one's space to some it is unacceptable, to others it does not matter, as the person still remains a person. Most parents may find such sexual preference to be unacceptable, yet, that will not influence the love they have for their child. I'm not trying to be inconsistent, all that I'm attempting to do is to be fair. Homosexuality between consenting males/females should be accepted within any civilized society, based on the changing attitudes and minds. If a person is sightless, should he/she be ostracised from a sight society?

alieninthecaribbean
07-02-2009, 10:16 AM
India finally decriminalizes consensual homosexual relations between adults!

What a remarkable step forward!


The Delhi High Court ruled that treating consensual gay sex as a crime is a violation of fundamental rights protected by India's constitution. The ruling, the first of its kind in India, applies only in New Delhi.

"I'm so excited, and I haven't been able to process the news yet," Anjali Gopalan, the executive director of the Naz Foundation (India) Trust, a sexual health organization that had filed the petition, told reporters. "We've finally entered the 21st century."



"This legal remnant of British colonialism has been used to deprive people of their basic rights for too long," Scott Long, director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender (LGBT) Rights Program at Human Rights Watch, said in a statement. "This long-awaited decision testifies to the reach of democracy and rights in India."

Read the full Associated Press article here http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090702/ap_on_re_as/as_india_gay_rights

shield_2006
07-02-2009, 01:03 PM
WOW! Gays adopting children ... 2 Daddies and no Mommy ...... 2 Mommies and no Daddies go figure.


Two parents are always better than one, no matter the gender ;)
Unless the person is a superwoman like Obama's mother who helped raise him mostly alone.
If my partner and I ever adopted we'd also make sure they had exposure to postive role models from both genders. She or he would have a host of older uncles, male cousins, godsons and nephews (not that my partner cannot rough and tumble, swim and kick ball with the best of them) Like the saying goes, it takes a village.

That's why I don't think a gay couple who is completely isolated, closeted and cut off from family support and approval should have kids. In fact, I'd say the same about a heterosexual couple too. You need that support to make it work.


I have an idea .. how about if the gay men have sex with the gay women, have children and share custody

I think the "having sex" part would be a major obstacle for most gay men and women, especially since they may be in committed relationships already. But many do the articifial insemination or surrogacy route.

Personally, I prefer adoption. Why create new children when there are already more abandoned or orphaned children than happy homes for them? There are millions of AIDS orphans in Africa who need homes and we not too far behind here in the Caribbean. It's like continuing to pour coffee into an already overflowing cup. :bounce:

I think you mamaguying we with this one oui!!!!

CLOSE YOUR EYES and tell me the difference.

Like Redman

Ah gone.

alieninthecaribbean
07-02-2009, 01:31 PM
I think you mamaguying we with this one oui!!!!

CLOSE YOUR EYES and tell me the difference.

Like Redman

Ah gone.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

With enough alcohol or desperation people have been known to be capable of almost anything.