Dookeran urges Bharath and Meighoo to step down

[Somebody007]

I now reading on the Guardian Online blog that Dookeran urging Bharath and Meighoo to step down from politics as those two people are not citizens of Trinidad and Tobago and holding passports for the UK and the US respectively. I always remember that people born on foreign soil can never serve in other country politics but what is it they doing here. People read this article below and tell meh what allyuh think.....Here it is...... This article was taken from the Trinidad Guardian.

Tuesday 23rd October, 2007

COP to UNC candidates: Step down or face courts


T&T’S CONSTITUTION SECTION 48 1 (A)

No person shall be qualified to be elected as a member of the House of Representatives who is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad & Tobago having become a citizen voluntarily, or is under a declaration of allegiance to such a country.


COP OUT

COP tells Vasant Bharath and Kirk Meighoo to step down as candidates or face the court
The COP has sought legal advice on the matter
They are advising the public— in a series of advertisments—not to vote for either men

BY CORDIELLE STREET

UNC ALLIANCE candidates Vasant Bharath and Dr Kirk Meighoo are being warned by the Congress of the People (COP): contest the November 5 general election and face the courtroom.

The COP has started a series of public advertisements today, warning St Augustine and Chaguanas East constituents not to vote for either men, as they are ineligible to be Members of Parliament.

In fact, the COP, which has sought the legal advice of two Senior Counsel, one of whom is Desmond Allum, said the public advertisements were the first step in a battle that could involve the country’s highest court.

According to one of the party’s legal advisers, the notice of wasted votes is the first step, and if either Meighoo or Bharath wins his seat, the published notices could then be used against them in court.

“By law, we are required as a prelude to the filing of any election petition, to forewarn our voters for the specific constituencies that their votes may be wasted, because the candidates are constitutionally disqualified from offering themselves...,” explained COP candidate for Tabaquite, attorney Anand Ramlogan.

Ramlogan told the Guardian, in a phone interview yesterday, that while Bharath and Meighoo were born on foreign soil and therefore “involuntarily” had citizenship, they performed a “voluntary” act by applying for United Kingdom and United States passports, respectively.

Ironically, Ramlogan represented Winston “Gypsy” Peters, who held US citizenship at that time, in his court battle as a candidate for the UNC in 2001.

In Peters’ case, he voluntarily gained citizenship as an adult.

Ramlogan said the issue of Bharath and Meighoo centred around their “split allegiance,” and unlike COP’s Port-of-Spain North candidate, Daniel Solomon, who had British citizenship, it was too late for them to renounce their citizenship.

“A vote for Vasant Bharath is a vote for the Queen,” he said.

A Senior Counsel advising the COP said a precedence had already been set in court on this issue when the Peters and Bill Chaitan constitutional motion went to the Court of Appeal.

He said Justice Rolston Nelson interpreted Section 48 of the constitution by using an Australian case, Sykes vs Cleary.

“There appears to be good reason why this country, since 1962, has insisted that its legislators have undivided loyalty to this country,” Nelson wrote.

Relying on the precedent set by Sykes vs Cleary, the SC said, Nelson referred to the portion of the ruling that stated:

“The provision was designed to ensure that Members of Parliament did not have a split allegiance and were not, as far as possible, subject to any improper influence by foreign governments.”

Owing a duty of allegiance to the foreign power, according to the law of the foreign power, becomes the main contention, said the COP legal adviser.

“The bottom line in the case of Vasant Bharath and Kirk Meighoo is they were entitled to be T&T citizens and UK and US citizens, and they had to do a voluntary act which is they applied for a US passport and the UK passport.”

Because Nomination Day has passed, and they have already sworn they are not citizens, or owe allegiance, to another country...

Bharath calls it desperation



Anand Ramlogan

...Meighoo and Bharath have backed themselves into a corner, said Ramlogan.

Bharath responds

“This is an act of desperation. They have reached desperation point and they are trying to save Mr (Winston) Dookeran’s (COP candidate for St Augustine) deposit, I guess,” Bharath told the Guardian yesterday in a telephone interview.

“They are fearful for Mr Dookeran. Whoever runs for the UNC in St Augustine will beat Mr Dookeran, because he has been an absentee representative.

“I was born in the United Kingdom, because my father was doing post-grad work in England, and I came back to Trinidad as a babe in arms.

“I had no power over where I was born... I didn’t apply for a passport. It was given to me by birth.

"There is a reason why we have laws in any country, and that is to ensure that we adhere to those laws. Unless and until this becomes unlawful, I will have a situation then.” (See Page 7)




©2005-2006 Trinidad Publishing Company Limited
Designed by: Randall Rajkumar-Maharaj · Updated daily by: Nicholas Attai

[Dispatcher]

Desperate tactics by the CoP that all it is.

The law is very clear on this matter. Neither of them are doing anything illegal.

How many times have we got to go thru the law? It states if someone VOLUNTARILY accepts allegiance to another country then they should be barred from running for a seat in the House of Representatives.

Neither of these 2 volutarily accepted allegiance to another country. They were born there. It wasn't their choice where they were born. Their parents are Trinidadians studying abroad at the time and returned while with them as babies. They should be as much Trinidadians as anyone.

To deny anyone in that situation the opportunity to serve their country is being very bigotted.

[Somebody007]

Dispatcher, read what the constitution says very carefully....No person shall be qualified to be elected as a member of the House of Representatives who is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad & Tobago....both Bharath and Meighoo fits that description. Both of them carrying passports and citizenry of another country and they wanting to hold office which was desinged for the people born in Trinidad and Tobago. You think if any British or American people had they children here in Trinidad, they coulda go back to the country where their parents originated from and run for political office....that coulda never happen....only in Trinidad and Tobago, you could get away with these things.

[Acid]

COP trying a thing yes.

This is different from Gypsy and Chaitan who applied for Citizenship in USA/Canada.

[Dispatcher]

What utter nonsense. And Arnold Swazenegar was born in Austria. The British parliament has had many individuals who were not born in the UK some dating back over 100 years. And these people without even any previous link to those countries.

[halo]

T&T’S CONSTITUTION SECTION 48 1 (A)

No person shall be qualified to be elected as a member of the House of Representatives who is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad & Tobago having become a citizen voluntarily, or is under a declaration of allegiance to such a country.


I interpret it as since they were both BORN in these countries they:

1. Did not become a citizen of these countries voluntarily
2. Did not declare allegiane to to these countries.

I could be wrong maybe the legal minds on the forum could clarify.

[Sirius]

They trying a thing indeed. But look carefully at the letter of the law. Technically speaking, they have a case because voluntarily a citizen or not they are under allegiance since they hold a passport, is that not so?

[Maccogirl]

Dookeran should get off his high throne and go work his constituency rather than looking for a easy way out of his loss, Bharath working that area 9 mths now walking area by area, Dookeran well he is the absent representative and the people of this area say so daily on the radio.

I really don't know why the COP feels at this stage making this a issues is going to work in their favor, so what is the point if Bharath wins his seat and they take him to court so he cant sit in parliament the fact of the matter is the people chose him over Dookeran and that is what the COP should be working on finding out why persons in the area favor the UNCA or the PNM candidate of the COP leader.

[JPersad]

If Trinidad and Tobago recognize dual citizens , then the law should not deny them the right to run for public office .
I do not agree with the COP on this one .

[Somebody007]

Maccogirl, you have failed to address the topic of the thread. We are not concerned about who is walking up and down the area of St. Augustine 9 months now. We are concerned about who was not born here and running for politics in this country.

[Somebody007]

What utter nonsense. And Arnold Swazenegar was born in Austria. The British parliament has had many individuals who were not born in the UK some dating back over 100 years. And these people without even any previous link to those countries.


Well yuh ancestry dating back over 100 years then how can that justify to what is happening now. Everybody in Trinidad have incestry that not from Trinidad. We not talking about ancestors, we talking about people who are not born here but running for office right now. COP does have a case in the court of law.

[Somebody007]

What utter nonsense. And Arnold Swazenegar was born in Austria. The British parliament has had many individuals who were not born in the UK some dating back over 100 years. And these people without even any previous link to those countries.


Well yuh ancestry dating back over 100 years then how can that justify to what is happening now. Everybody in Trinidad have incestry that not from Trinidad. We not talking about ancestors, we talking about people who are not born here but running for office right now. COP does have a case in the court of law.

If Arnold Swazeneggar running for politics in the States, then the US constitution have different rules and regulations to us....of course, Arnold's case does not apply here.

[vaio]

some ppl shld listen to themselves talking...nonesense...if it is the law...how can you argue with that...??

[Dispatcher]

Dispatcher, read what the constitution says very carefully....No person shall be qualified to be elected as a member of the House of Representatives who is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad & Tobago....both Bharath and Meighoo fits that description.


You see how people can be deceitful. Only quoting that excerpt of the law that suits your agenda. Maybe if you quoted the entire clause you would understand why Anand is barking up the wrong tree.

The full sentence should read:

No person shall be qualified to be elected as a member of the House of Representatives who is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad & Tobago having become a citizen voluntarily, or is under a declaration of allegiance to such a country.

The additional red part of the clause qualifies the statement and gives it a more precise definition of whom it affects.

When you quote you must try and be honest about it. We all big people here. No need to try and mamaguy people. It does not reflect well on you or the party you stand for.

[halo]

some ppl shld listen to themselves talking...nonesense...if it is the law...how can you argue with that...??

it's how the law is interpreted that matters. right?

[Somebody007]

Dispatcher, read what the constitution says very carefully....No person shall be qualified to be elected as a member of the House of Representatives who is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad & Tobago....both Bharath and Meighoo fits that description.


You see how people can be deceitful. Only quoting that excerpt of the law that suits your agenda. Maybe if you quoted the entire clause you would understand why Anand is barking up the wrong tree.

The full sentence should read:

No person shall be qualified to be elected as a member of the House of Representatives who is a citizen of a country other than Trinidad & Tobago having become a citizen voluntarily, or is under a declaration of allegiance to such a country.

The additional red part of the clause qualifies the statement and gives it a more precise definition of whom it affects.

When you quote you must try and be honest about it. We all big people here. No need to try and mamaguy people. It does not reflect well on you or the party you stand for.


hehehe.... :D :D :D :D ....well lets see how the courts will interpret the situation when and if it goes that far.

[Acid]

Everybody in Trinidad have incestry that not from Trinidad.

Boy, watch what you saying :)

[Somebody007]

Everybody in Trinidad have incestry that not from Trinidad.

Boy, watch what you saying :)



hehehehehehe....... :D :D :D :D ....yuh know I now notice that....that was an honest typo mistake....ah was typing the thread too fast there....my bad....next thing yuh know the whole thread turn out to be ah big joke.

[Dispatcher]

What utter nonsense. And Arnold Swazenegar was born in Austria. The British parliament has had many individuals who were not born in the UK some dating back over 100 years. And these people without even any previous link to those countries.


Well yuh ancestry dating back over 100 years then how can that justify to what is happening now. Everybody in Trinidad have incestry that not from Trinidad. We not talking about ancestors, we talking about people who are not born here but running for office right now. COP does have a case in the court of law.


I not talking about ancestry. What I menat that over 100 years ago, in 1892, there was an Indian man (Dadabhai Naoroji ) who became a MP in the UK Parliament. He did not have any parental link to England. He migrated and ran for parliament and won.

[Somebody007]

What utter nonsense. And Arnold Swazenegar was born in Austria. The British parliament has had many individuals who were not born in the UK some dating back over 100 years. And these people without even any previous link to those countries.


Well yuh ancestry dating back over 100 years then how can that justify to what is happening now. Everybody in Trinidad have incestry that not from Trinidad. We not talking about ancestors, we talking about people who are not born here but running for office right now. COP does have a case in the court of law.


I not talking about ancestry. What I menat that over 100 years ago, in 1892, there was an Indian man (Dadabhai Naoroji ) who became a MP in the UK Parliament. He did not have any parental link to England. He migrated and ran for parliament and won.

That was in the UK is 1892 and of course by then alot of amendments would have been made to the law. Take for example, in Trinidad we have so many small boats in the sea and yet, there is nothing in legislation addressing any cases of accidents and death on sea. What happened in 1892 in the UK and what is happening in Trinidad and Tobago in 2007 are two completely different scenarios. I perfectly understand where you are coming from with your argument and the pertainance of the UK scenario with Trinidad but it still doesn't change the view that COP does have a situation to end up in court with based on our current constitution. Trust me on this, Dookeran will challenge that in the courtroom.

[vaio]

some ppl shld listen to themselves talking...nonesense...if it is the law...how can you argue with that...??

it's how the law is interpreted that matters. right?

that's right... that why we have courts...

[Dispatcher]

What utter nonsense. And Arnold Swazenegar was born in Austria. The British parliament has had many individuals who were not born in the UK some dating back over 100 years. And these people without even any previous link to those countries.

If Arnold Swazeneggar running for politics in the States, then the US constitution have different rules and regulations to us....of course, Arnold's case does not apply here.

Somebody you are the one who said:


You think if any British or American people had they children here in Trinidad, they coulda go back to the country where their parents originated from and run for political office....that coulda never happen....only in Trinidad and Tobago, you could get away with these things.

I was just pointing out how false your statement was. There are elected representatives in US and UK who were not only not born in those countries nor did they have any previous links via parental citizenship.

Your statement above is utterly false and now you saying their constition have different rules. When before you said they would never allow it.

[Dispatcher]

That was in the UK is 1892 and of course by then alot of amendments would have been made to the law.

Why you talking without knowing facts. Once you are a British citizen you can be a MP in the UK regardless of where you are born. There are many MPs today in the UK not born in the UK.

Case in point: Virendra Sharma born in India in 1947 now the MP for Ealing/Southall.

[Somebody007]

What utter nonsense. And Arnold Swazenegar was born in Austria. The British parliament has had many individuals who were not born in the UK some dating back over 100 years. And these people without even any previous link to those countries.

If Arnold Swazeneggar running for politics in the States, then the US constitution have different rules and regulations to us....of course, Arnold's case does not apply here.

Somebody you are the one who said:


You think if any British or American people had they children here in Trinidad, they coulda go back to the country where their parents originated from and run for political office....that coulda never happen....only in Trinidad and Tobago, you could get away with these things.

I was just pointing out how false your statement was. There are elected representatives in US and UK who were not only not born in those countries nor did they have any previous links via parental citizenship.

Your statement above is utterly false and now you saying their constition have different rules. When before you said they would never allow it.


Basically what I should have said was these countries practice alot of prejudice.....cuz any white man born in a black country could never go back to a white country to rule over the white people. Swazeneggar is a white man, so its ok for he and so is half of them UK politicians you talking about. Infact, if you look at the UK legislation regarding immigration, once you become a UK citizen, you enjoy all the full rights of the british people.....but again it has to be way the legislation has been phrased....

[Maccogirl]

Look I don't care if the man born on the moon, the fact of the matter is if he is a good candidate for the people he is going to represent, I thought this was the idea behind this election to find a suitable candidate for people to represent them. Imbert was born in St. VIncent how come the COP don't have an issue with that?

Imbert has been sitting in government for years where is the outcry, so you want to tell me that there are no other people sitting in government that have dual citizenship? Can the COP show the public the citizenship status of all their candidates? What happen is only the COP that have full bread Trinidadians no other party has?

What is the COP trying to do with this trying to deny the people of this nation from selecting who they feel is the best candidate for them, I am sure these COP people are the same persons that were crying shame on the PNM when they made a issue of the Gypsy and Chitam affair, now they feel PNM was correct because they are on the other side?

When the COP was courting Kirk Meighoo to join them did they not know about these citizenship issues am sure they must have of some persons in there must of know now its an issue.

Look if the COP wants PNM to win this election they should come out and say so or go join the PNM bandwagon but I am getting sick and tired of their antics and to be honest at this point PNM should win every dam seat, and all of you that have issue with the UNCA don't run stay here and take the jamming when it starts. :roll:

[vaio]

i think the unc supporters are very upset right about now....hmmmmm

[Somebody007]

yeah, Maccogirl vex wid all ah we.

[vaio]

Nothing wrong...after all its open season....

[Dispatcher]

Basically what I should have said was these countries practice alot of prejudice.....cuz any white man born in a black country could never go back to a white country to rule over the white people.

What a load of BS. Where are your facts to back that up? No wonder you supporting CoP. Regurgitating any cr@p to defend your Dookeran and Ramlogan.

It have black people born outside the Britain representing white people, why can't a white person born outside Britain represent white people. I think I done responding to this nonsense you spewing.

[Maccogirl]

i think the unc supporters are very upset right about now....hmmmmm

Nope not upset but maybe it will take a total win by the PNM for some of you to get off your nonsense, because some of your are forgetting that PNM is still in this race and they already have seats in the bag, or is it that some of you COP people feel that the COP has now taken all these seats away from the PNM, if that is the case I have no problem with that lets just hope the day after election it is so.

I know one thing that when people get up after election and they have no water, traffic and crime is still a problem, Manning gets free reign to do what he wants, high food prices and so on, someone will have to answer to the people when the anger starts, so if the COP so sure they have that covered well go brave win it all, that is all they have to do :roll:

[vaio]

If the COP is so insignificant, how can they be answerable to the people if the PNM reigns supreme...that is the dumbest cr*p i ever heard!!!

[Sirius]

It seems you all are overlooking the part of the article that states why COP thinks Meighoo and Bharath cannot run. Let me put it here for you:


Ramlogan told the Guardian, in a phone interview yesterday, that while Bharath and Meighoo were born on foreign soil and therefore “involuntarily” had citizenship, they performed a “voluntary” act by applying for United Kingdom and United States passports, respectively.

Therein lies the technicality that I would say would stand up in a court of law. They applied for passports. If they were born there and didn't apply for their passports then there would be no case.

[Somebody007]

The only problem I have with the UNC is putting a man with so many charges in the courts of law back in power to rule we....that must not happen otherwise I see no issue with Dookeran holding the fort for Trinidad and Tobago. That man is by far a better man to run the show than Panday.

[vaio]

Ditto to that 007.

[halo]

It seems you all are overlooking the part of the article that states why COP thinks Meighoo and Bharath cannot run. Let me put it here for you:


Ramlogan told the Guardian, in a phone interview yesterday, that while Bharath and Meighoo were born on foreign soil and therefore “involuntarily” had citizenship, they performed a “voluntary” act by applying for United Kingdom and United States passports, respectively.

Therein lies the technicality that I would say would stand up in a court of law. They applied for passports. If they were born there and didn't apply for their passports then there would be no case.

Point taken...

[Maccogirl]

If the COP is so insignificant, how can they be answerable to the people if the PNM reigns supreme...that is the dumbest cr*p i ever heard!!!


Like you cant read or you playing dumb, I said does the COP feel that they have all the PNM seats in the bag, that they can win this from the PNM lets forget UNCA. The PNM is the government so the COP not taking government from the UNCA its the PNM. I also said I have no problem if that happens, but if it does not and all the issues we have now still exist after election, and if the COP allows the PNM to get this great majority that Manning needs what then.

Panday and the UNCA already has stated they have 16 seats and looking for 5 more the COP is saying they winning it ALL, that is what the COP leader is telling the public if this does not come to pass who do you expect to shoulder this blame the UNCA? The COP is the one that making all these claims of 450,000 votes, 50,000 members, 80% of the UNCA base, inroads into the PNM base it is their nonsense no one else, that is what they are feeding the public.

If this happens not to be the case after election and the PNM wins it all what are you going to say then, sorry people we made a mistake, we did not add right, what then??

[halo]

At the end of the day the PNM is laughing all the way to the treasury.

[lak]

It seems you all are overlooking the part of the article that states why COP thinks Meighoo and Bharath cannot run. Let me put it here for you:


Ramlogan told the Guardian, in a phone interview yesterday, that while Bharath and Meighoo were born on foreign soil and therefore “involuntarily” had citizenship, they performed a “voluntary” act by applying for United Kingdom and United States passports, respectively.

Therein lies the technicality that I would say would stand up in a court of law. They applied for passports. If they were born there and didn't apply for their passports then there would be no case.Do not be misled.Bharath or Meighoo did not apply for passports,their parents did on their behalf!
I am no lawyer but you all are missing a tiny detail which Annand knows full well. Here goes, when can a child especially a baby born in a foreign country apply for a passport on their own? The child either gets their own passport (applied for by the parents) for travelling purposes or the child is placed unto one of the parent's passport. After that then it is a matter of renewing the said passport.

[vaio]

If the COP is so insignificant, how can they be answerable to the people if the PNM reigns supreme...that is the dumbest cr*p i ever heard!!!


Like you cant read or you playing dumb, I said does the COP feel that they have all the PNM seats in the bag, that they can win this from the PNM lets forget UNCA. The PNM is the government so the COP not taking government from the UNCA its the PNM. I also said I have no problem if that happens, but if it does not and all the issues we have now still exist after election, and if the COP allows the PNM to get this great majority that Manning needs what then.

Panday and the UNCA already has stated they have 16 seats and looking for 5 more the COP is saying they winning it ALL, that is what the COP leader is telling the public if this does not come to pass who do you expect to shoulder this blame the UNCA? The COP is the one that making all these claims of 450,000 votes, 50,000 members, 80% of the UNCA base, inroads into the PNM base it is their nonsense no one else, that is what they are feeding the public.

If this happens not to be the case after election and the PNM wins it all what are you going to say then, sorry people we made a mistake, we did not add right, what then??

so why is the COP answerable to the people? why don't you ask you great leader to answer why when he was place in government did he take advantage of the ppl's trust, fight with RLM and mash up the gov't :twisted: .. so i will ask it slowly..... WHY...........IS...........THE...........COP...... ...ANSWERABLE ...............TO .....................THE ....................PEOPLE....??? :roll: :twisted:

[Parsifal]

It seems you all are overlooking the part of the article that states why COP thinks Meighoo and Bharath cannot run. Let me put it here for you:


Ramlogan told the Guardian, in a phone interview yesterday, that while Bharath and Meighoo were born on foreign soil and therefore “involuntarily” had citizenship, they performed a “voluntary” act by applying for United Kingdom and United States passports, respectively.

Therein lies the technicality that I would say would stand up in a court of law. They applied for passports. If they were born there and didn't apply for their passports then there would be no case.Do not be misled.Bharath or Meighoo did not apply for passports,their parents did on their behalf!
I am no lawyer but you all are missing a tiny detail which Annand knows full well. Here goes, when can a child especially a baby born in a foreign country apply for a passport on their own? The child either gets their own passport (applied for by the parents) for travelling purposes or the child is placed unto one of the parent's passport. After that then it is a matter of renewing the said passport.

Kirk is about 38. Vasant is even older. They would have RENEWED their passports as adults. So they would have gone through an acceptance of the oath of allegiance either explicitly or implicitly.

[Sirius]

Do not be misled.Bharath or Meighoo did not apply for passports,their parents did on their behalf!
I am no lawyer but you all are missing a tiny detail which Annand knows full well. Here goes, when can a child especially a baby born in a foreign country apply for a passport on their own? The child either gets their own passport (applied for by the parents) for travelling purposes or the child is placed unto one of the parent's passport. After that then it is a matter of renewing the said passport.

And these individuals are grown adults. Therefore they would have to either get their own passport or renew their existing one. As you said, do not be misled. Remember there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Unfortunately the letter of the law can be and often is exploited.

In my view however this particular case is important to be true to the letter. You do not want a parliamentary representative with conflicting allegiances to another nation.

[Maccogirl]

Do these people not have TT passports also if that is the case does one hold more importance than the other especially if they are working, living for years in one country. Or is it that it does not matter the Us and British passports take precedent over all other passports that anyone may acquire in their lifetime?

If the case is they are saying that these individual pledge allegiance to the country they hold the passports for what about the passport they acquired for T&T, does the same rules not apply?

[lak]

Do not be misled.Bharath or Meighoo did not apply for passports,their parents did on their behalf!
I am no lawyer but you all are missing a tiny detail which Annand knows full well. Here goes, when can a child especially a baby born in a foreign country apply for a passport on their own? The child either gets their own passport (applied for by the parents) for travelling purposes or the child is placed unto one of the parent's passport. After that then it is a matter of renewing the said passport.

And these individuals are grown adults. Therefore they would have to either get their own passport or renew their existing one. As you said, do not be misled. Remember there is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. Unfortunately the letter of the law can be and often is exploited.

In my view however this particular case is important to be true to the letter. You do not want a parliamentary representative with conflicting allegiances to another nation.

Granted that these two individuals are currently grown adults, however the rule now switches to that of Dual Citizenship.

[Maccogirl]

If that is the case Lak what does having dual citizenship with T&T and another country mean, seems to me the issue or the case being made are the obtaining of the passports and not where these individuals were born but since T&T does allow dual citizenship what is the issue then??

[lak]

If that is the case Lak what does having dual citizenship with T&T and another country mean, seems to me the issue or the case being made are the obtaining of the passports and not where these individuals were born but since T&T does allow dual citizenship what is the issue then??

There isn't! Some are trying to make it an issue and pronouncing a verdict in a court of public opinion.

[halo]

Since the UNC was in this territory before I'm sure these two persons have obtained legal advice on this issue before filing their nomination papers. If not then they deserve to be in this situation.

[Maccogirl]

If I was Manning and I win this election what I would do is repeal the law, no more dual citizenship for any Trini, once you leave that is it, you born abroad that is it when you 18 ride out. No acceptance of green card no nonsense like that anymore, no Trini birth paper no work in T&T for you, we not accepting nothing like that again too much trouble in the long run.

I wonder then if the goodly MR. Ramlogan will then sing another song, I wonder what the COP supporters will have to say with that one because am sure many of them that going to vote have some kind of dual nonsense but they voting any way, all who want to study abroad nope not allowed we have UWI Free for that, no more going up to the USA for a little work to pick apples and such, we closing that door also, you are a born Trini stay here once you pick up work aboard and the government finds out no return that is it.

As to all who buying house in Tobago and not Trini's out, we will not recognize marriage or anything of that nature, Trinidad is for Trini we don't care what you have to offer or contribute all door closed from that day on, and you know how Trini love to fly out and make their babies abroad nope that stopping also, door close you make the child in the USA stay dey. :lol: :lol:

[skl]

If I was Manning and I win this election what I would do is repeal the law, no more dual citizenship for any Trini, once you leave that is it, you born abroad that is it when you 18 ride out. No acceptance of green card no nonsense like that anymore, no Trini birth paper no work in T&T for you, we not accepting nothing like that again too much trouble in the long run.

I wonder then if the goodly MR. Ramlogan will then sing another song, I wonder what the COP supporters will have to say with that one because am sure many of them that going to vote have some kind of dual nonsense but they voting any way, all who want to study abroad nope not allowed we have UWI Free for that, no more going up to the USA for a little work to pick apples and such, we closing that door also, you are a born Trini stay here once you pick up work aboard and the government finds out no return that is it.

As to all who buying house in Tobago and not Trini's out, we will not recognize marriage or anything of that nature, Trinidad is for Trini we don't care what you have to offer or contribute all door closed from that day on, and you know how Trini love to fly out and make their babies abroad nope that stopping also, door close you make the child in the USA stay dey. :lol: :lol:


LOL Macco you confusing dual citizenship and naturalization. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[King B]

I cant believe that after the drama of the last election a party would put up candidates with dual citizenship. The UNC is actually going this route again. All they had to do was give up the foreign citizenship and everything would have been ok. I heard Anand also claiming that PNM candidates had dual citizenship; I can only hope that the PNM was not also so idiotic since they are the ones who challenged the UNC when they tried this same nonsense.

[Somebody007]

Oh Oh....poor thing....Maccogirl sounding like she real mad at all ah we. Doh worry girl, one day you'll see the light. We must meet up one day and have ah drink or two and talk things over.

[Somebody007]

I cant believe that after the drama of the last election a party would put up candidates with dual citizenship. The UNC is actually going this route again. All they had to do was give up the foreign citizenship and everything would have been ok. I heard Anand also claiming that PNM candidates had dual citizenship; I can only hope that the PNM was not also so idiotic since they are the ones who challenged the UNC when they tried this same nonsense.


Believe it or not..... ;)

[Maccogirl]

king what you playing you know is Clom Imbert they speaking about but PNM is the masters of this game Basil Ince was a US citizen and he served in the PNM government so don't play as if you so shock at UNC now. :roll: and at that time let me add there were no such thing as dual citizenship

[TheLight]

wait nah, ent Jamal Mohammed born England :P

[Dispatcher]

Ah come back after 5 hours and allyuh still beating this dead horse?

When this law was made there was no such thing as dual citizenship. At the time of this law if you accepted another citizenship then you had to renounce your Trinidad citizenship. Hence by accepting allegiance to another country you lost citizenship of Trinidad. So that would be one reason why at the time it was stipulated you could not then be elected. And that's understandable.

Now however citizenship rules have changed. You can still be a Trinidadian even though you accept that of another country. Therefore the laws need to change to reflect dual citizenship. But the law is the law so anyone born in Trinidad but accept another citizenship can’t run for a seat,

But let's take the cases as charged by Ramlogan.

Gypsy has long time now renounced his US citizenship. He was already an MP. I hear Gypsy on the news saying Ramlogan is crazy and losing his credibility as a lawyer.

The other 3 were born in foreign countries. Their parents were all Trinidadians. They returned to Trinidad as babies or small children, grew here, maybe studied abroad, worked here. Does that make them less Trinidadian?

They did not become a citizen of another country voluntarily nor did they have to pledge allegiance to another country.

Only when you become a citizen through naturalisation that you need to pledge allegiance. They did not have to do that.

Those are the only two conditions in the law. 1) voluntarily accepting citizenship and 2) pledging allegiance

None of them has done either of the 2.

As for the passport. The law says nothing about passports. They are able to get their passports by dint of the fact that they were born there. Not because of any of the 2 conditions stipulated in the law.

So that is the loophole in the law.

And one last thing to those so ready to follow Ramlogan like mindless goat:

Who do you think has more right to represent you?
a) A child born to a Trini girl in Trinidad who was conceived as a result of a fling with a tourist come down for a good time
b) A child born in the UK to two Trinidadians because one of the parents went to work in the Embassy there for 4 years. After their stint abroad they come back with the 2 year old who is told when s/he grows up that they have no rights to be elected as a member of the House of Representatives. They can't serve their country through the parliament.

Please think it over then answer.

[JPersad]

Look I don't care if the man born on the moon, the fact of the matter is if he is a good candidate for the people he is going to represent, I thought this was the idea behind this election to find a suitable candidate for people to represent them. Imbert was born in St. VIncent how come the COP don't have an issue with that?

Imbert has been sitting in government for years where is the outcry, so you want to tell me that there are no other people sitting in government that have dual citizenship? Can the COP show the public the citizenship status of all their candidates? What happen is only the COP that have full bread Trinidadians no other party has?

What is the COP trying to do with this trying to deny the people of this nation from selecting who they feel is the best candidate for them, I am sure these COP people are the same persons that were crying shame on the PNM when they made a issue of the Gypsy and Chitam affair, now they feel PNM was correct because they are on the other side?

When the COP was courting Kirk Meighoo to join them did they not know about these citizenship issues am sure they must have of some persons in there must of know now its an issue.

Look if the COP wants PNM to win this election they should come out and say so or go join the PNM bandwagon but I am getting sick and tired of their antics and to be honest at this point PNM should win every dam seat, and all of you that have issue with the UNCA don't run stay here and take the jamming when it starts. :roll:
But in the same breathe you do not care about gays being afforded the same right and protection like every other citizen?
As long as the UNC , you ok with that !

[JPersad]

MG ,
Here is a question for you:
You mean to say the UNC could not find Trini born citizen , qualified and experienced enough to go up on a UNC ticket ?
Or is it a case of the UNC wants only KNIFE and FORK representatives , while their supporters should remain grassroots ?

And
Do you honestly feel them fellas will give up their "foreign " citizenship ?

[Solachica]

This morning on radio I was hearing Nafeesa mohammed and Mikela Panday also in same boat to?

[Maccogirl]

At this point you can put a donkey in a suit in St. Augustine to run Dookeran not winning his seat, if UNCA don't PNM will so the COP better try and find something on the PNM candidate also because she is also a threat in the race, rather than looking for a loophole and a free pass to put Dookeran in, they should think about that and stop acting as if Dookeran has a stamp and seal on this seat.

Let me add even if this goes to court if Vashant wins this seat the judge will have to decide. His decision can either go in the COP favor, the PNM favor or the judge can call for a by election to decide once again in the interest of the people. So all that the COP is trying is nonsense they are acting as if Dookeran will be given the seat instantly once Vashant is thrown out, not so my friend and am sure you know this it will be in the court hands then and it can go in any direction.

If that is what the COP wants no problem its there creditability as a political party will be at stake and no one else's

[JPersad]

MG ,
You could really DANCE!
:shock: :shock: :shock:

[Maccogirl]

JP dance what I am just saying if COP wants take it to court its their ball game, also I am just reminding you and I know you know its not just to move Vashant and the seat is Dookeran's, the judge can call a by election and what Dookeran will not run for the seat again, I agree because he will go down in history as the man that got lick twice.

As I said its the COP game and not matter how you turn it there is going to be one outcome and that sure is not in Dookeran favor because he is not winning this seat :D

[bluemellow]

apart from the dual citizenship factor... let's see.. vashant bharat vs. winston dookeran...

this is what vashant is known for: rice scandal, urinating on himself in a state of drunken stupor.

winston dookeran: governor of the central bank, senior economist, member of the IADB.

dual citizenship or not, it doesn't take a moron to figure out who is the more upstanding candidate.

[skl]

I think the COP making a mistake by focusing so much energy on this dual citizenship issue. its not going to swing votes.

[Vampire_Princess]

^^ All sorts of rumours abound yes. You mentioned Vasant, another site I see is constantly alleging that Ramlogan was caught troubling a goat in his younger days. I don't know and I don't care. People could pee themselves in their free time if they want, and the goat probably lives in St. A for all I know so we could call that constituency work. :twisted:

So UNC and possibly PNM candidates have dual citizenships.....that doesn't negate the need to beat them at the polls.

Trini is still a democracy... I would have a real problem if a PNM or UNC candidate got an overwhelming majority of votes, and then people want to unseat them for a loophole... and give the seat to someone who get hardly any votes.

[rivers]

What utter nonsense. And Arnold Swazenegar was born in Austria. The British parliament has had many individuals who were not born in the UK some dating back over 100 years. And these people without even any previous link to those countries.

first of all Swazenegar is a naturalize citizen, meaning he has renounce the Austria citizenship and his allegance is only to one country and that is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Trinidad constitution says the same thing so you know what that's the way it should be. What I don't understand is this nonesense when people what to talk about what they doing in the UK or other country, if they want to run with dual citizenship they should in the UK and run for political office there (that's if they would let them run at all).

[slick]

wait nah, ent Jamal Mohammed born England :P
That's right. I hope COP withdraws or takes legal action against Jamal as well, seeing as how they are so full of integrity.

[skl]

well IF Jamal still has dual citizenship and COP pushing this line, they deserve any backlash.

remember the issue isnt being born abroad. its being a dual citizen.

[Maccogirl]

Someone on another site said Kamla just mentioned that Jamal was born in England and she wanted to know what the COP is doing about that, so it does look like that talk has some merit to it, also on plain talk today Jamal cousin said it is a fact that he was born in England.

I wonder how come Ramlogan did not know this and now I wonder what the COP is going to say.

[sylvestter]

i think that the dual citizenship issue is a moot point, and i find it amazing that the cop is actually dwelling on it...

[Somebody007]

apart from the dual citizenship factor... let's see.. vashant bharat vs. winston dookeran...

this is what vashant is known for: rice scandal, urinating on himself in a state of drunken stupor.

winston dookeran: governor of the central bank, senior economist, member of the IADB.

dual citizenship or not, it doesn't take a moron to figure out who is the more upstanding candidate.


Bluemellow the people ent care about who is the more upstanding candidate...all the people just care about is race and who running their respective parties. You thinking as though trinis are full up with sense....they full up with something oui but it eh sense......yuh dig.

[Somebody007]

JPersad, ent you izza an American Citizen....I fine all who livin in foreign should come back here as foreign nationals an run for politics. I go vote fi yuh....lol.... :D :D :D :D

[Dispatcher]

first of all Swazenegar is a naturalize citizen, meaning he has renounce the Austria citizenship and his allegance is only to one country and that is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

He has not renounced his Austrian citizenship. Being naturalised in one country does not mean you give up the nationality of another country. Its the stage at which you can then become a citizen and get a passport. My sister is naturalised UK citizen yet she still has her Trinidad citizenship.

This taken from the book: Fantastic—The Life of Arnold Schwarzenegger

Schwarzenegger became a U.S. citizen in 1983, although he also retains his Austrian citizenship.

- Leamer, Lawrence, Fantastic—The Life of Arnold Schwarzenegger (New York: St. Martin's Press, 2005), p155



Trinidad constitution says the same thing so you know what that's the way it should be.

Try reading the law and the condition under which it applies. Then come back if you still need help.


What I don't understand is this nonesense when people what to talk about what they doing in the UK or other country, if they want to run with dual citizenship they should in the UK and run for political office there (that's if they would let them run at all).

The UK came up because someone with little understanding of the issues claimed that persons born in a place like Trinidad could never hold public office in UK or US. I had to show them otherwise by giving examples.

[rivers]

dispatcher if they don't like the law here they should move to the UK. End of story.

here is the story on Arnold http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Schwarzenegger

[Maccogirl]

Jamal I like your explanation :D :D

On Monday night, Jamal noted family links to St Joseph where his uncle was once MP there. Mohammed, however, did not mention that he was born in England—a fact which he confirmed yesterday, saying, “I happened to be born there since my father was studying there. My birth paper is British but I have no British passport. I have a T&T passport.”

So that makes a big difference Jamal now come on who you really trying to fool with that nonsense, the COP try a thing and they did not check that this mess could of fallen in their own yard :roll: :roll:

[Dispatcher]

dispatcher if they don't like the law here they should move to the UK. End of story.
I like the law that is why I'm defending and following it, though it could do with some amendments owing to the fact dual citizenship is now a reality when it wasn't when the law was written. It's Anand who is dancing around the law in CoP's act of desperation.

And even if I don't like a law why the should I ups and leave? Why can't I work to change it? Laws can be changed for the better. Maybe when we were slaves and we wanted the laws change to get our freedom, our ancestors should not have fought to change the law, no according to you they should have just run away.

So who are you to tell me to get out if I don't like it here? Like you own the country or what?


here is the story on Arnold http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_Schwarzenegger

Maybe if you actually read it you would seee that it says:

Schwarzenegger became a U.S. citizen in 1983,[4] although he also retains his Austrian citizenship.

Research before making a fool of yourself.

[Dispatcher]

this is what vashant is known for: rice scandal,

If you hadn't realised Bharath was exonerated by the inquiry into the whole affair. You can read an article on it here:

http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005 ... news8.html (http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005-05-01/news8.html)


urinating on himself in a state of drunken stupor.

Like you was there. You have any proof of that?

That is why intelligent people moving away from the CoP. They realise that is only ole tork they getting from that platform.

[Dispatcher]

Jamal say he born in England but he hasn't got a current UK passport.

Maybe someone should let him know that Passport and citizenship are mutually exclusive. You don't have to have a passport as proof of your citizenshup. Passport is just a travel document. You can live all your life as a Trinidadian but because you never have to travel you don't have a have a passport.

He is still a British citizen even though he don't have a passport, so he also has dual citizenship. But he like Bharath and Meighoo did not accept the citizenship voluntarily nor have to swear allegiance to that other country.

[Sirius]

...apply for a passport...you hold an allegiance to that county, the passport being the property of the other nation and entitling you to protection by them. Our laws do not prohibit one from running for parliament if you are a dual citizen by birth as it is not your choice and you cannot be held accountable for that. On the other hand, holding an allegiance to the other country - for instance by applying for/renewing and holding a passport of the other country, is not allowed.

I find allyuh real harping harping on being born overseas when that was never the issue. The issue is holding allegiance to a foreign nation, represented by holding the passport. So why keep running circles around an established dead argument and ignoring the real issue?

If Jamal was born in the UK but does not hold a UK passport then he has not chosen to have an allegiance to the UK. On the other hand, according to the article Bharath and Meighoo hold passports and as such hold allegiance to other nations. Isn't this the issue, not where they were born?

[Dispatcher]

Sirius, regardless of whether you hold a passport or not you are still a citizen of that country. If the government call you up for national service they not bothered wether you have a current passport or not.

The passport is just a travel document. You do not need to swear allegiance to the country to get a passport. Its your right as a citizen. If you have the opportunity to benefit from it why not use it. Why is that detrimental to serving Trinidad?

[peanut]

Sirius,

I am a US citizen and the choice to have or not to have a US Passport was mine, and if I choose to have a US passport, I do not have to pledge allegance to the US as that was done when I obtained citizenship.

The holding of a foreign Passport says nothing, it is just another form of ID and a Travel document. The document that hold significance is the Certificate of Naturalization.

I have a Certificate of Naturalization from the US which I can and have used in conjunction with my T&T passport.

[JPersad]

Sirius,

I am a US citizen and the choice to have or not to have a US Passport was mine, and if I choose to have a US passport, I do not have to pledge allegance to the US as that was done when I obtained citizenship.

The holding of a foreign Passport says nothing, it is just another form of ID and a Travel document. The document that hold significance is the Certificate of Naturalization.

I have a Certificate of Naturalization from the US which I can and have used in conjunction with my T&T passport.
If you are not a US citizen you will not get a US passport .
I believe that is the same in most countries .

Therefore to say that a passport is just another form of ID and a travel document is wrong !

It identifies your citizenship in a foreign land .

[Sirius]

A passport is the property of the state. It is not only a travel document but also serves to identify both you and your nationality. There are clauses all over the world where if someone is a citizen by birth but has not exercised their citizenry rights, they can apply for exemption from service and so forth. I know this much is certainly true for the US as I saw something on it just recently. When you apply for and hold a passport, you are pronouncing yourself a citizen of that country because the passport serves not only to identify your person, but your nationality! You are therefore declaring yourself as holding allegiance to that state. You are stating that you are entitled to protection and other services from that state.

Therefore, in some countries this is viewed as conflict of interest if you serve in the government. You are holding allegiance to two countries; not just the one you are serving in. Our constitution specifically says that you can serve in government as a dual citizen if such dual citizenship is not of your own doing, but it also states you cannot serve if you hold allegiance to another nation. This is where the passport issue comes into play. Remember the passport in identifying you also declares your nationality.

Meighoo and Bharath would not require a certificate of naturalization because they were born in those countries. Someone who is a citizen by birth does not require a certificate of naturalization. They can however not exercise that citizenship by not applying for services of that state (the passport being a document representing such), or if they want to serve in government, relinquish those services.

[Somebody007]

all we only doing is spinning weself round in circles. What is the real point here....are Bharath and Meighoo guilty of a crime or not???

[Sirius]

all we only doing is spinning weself round in circles. What is the real point here....are Bharath and Meighoo guilty of a crime or not???

That's for the courts to decide isn't it? Innocent until proven guilty. All I'm saying is taking the passport issue into account, a case can very likely be made to stop them contesting those seats or holding them if they win them.

[Maccogirl]

All yuh still with this talk, the fact of the matter is the COP made this a issue when they also have people running that were born outside of T&T, Dennis Solomon is another one. When the people win their seats take them to court what can I say, let the judge call a by election and let UNCA beat them again that is all, like they want to get licks twice.

If the COP want to put their leader through that and make him the laughing stock of the nation go brave, try again, you cant win your seat but you trying to get a foothold on it through the court system. Does this man ever fight for anything? :roll: Some of you getting on as if COP in the lead in all these seat and the other party trying to take it from them, the fact of the matter from all reports coming in is the COP is trailing in these seats that they are making all this fuss about.

Making an issue of this is only going to anger the voting public and I have no idea what Ramlogan was thinking with this one.

[Sirius]

All yuh still with this talk, the fact of the matter is the COP made this a issue when they also have people running that were born outside of T&T, Dennis Solomon is another one. When the people win their seats take them to court what can I say, let the judge call a by election and let UNCA beat them again that is all, like they want to get licks twice.

If the COP want to put their leader through that and make him the laughing stock of the nation go brave, try again, you cant win your seat but you trying to get a foothold on it through the court system. Does this man ever fight for anything? :roll: Some of you getting on as if COP in the lead in all these seat and the other party trying to take it from them, the fact of the matter from all reports coming in is the COP is trailing in these seats that they are making all this fuss about.

Making an issue of this is only going to anger the voting public and I have no idea what Ramlogan was thinking with this one.

I dunno how else to point out the issue isn't the dual citizenship but the fact they hold passports that represent an allegiance to a foreign power. If Solomon holding a foreign passport haul him out the race too. If he just born dey and the story ends at that well it have no case.

[JPersad]

All yuh still with this talk, the fact of the matter is the COP made this a issue when they also have people running that were born outside of T&T, Dennis Solomon is another one. When the people win their seats take them to court what can I say, let the judge call a by election and let UNCA beat them again that is all, like they want to get licks twice.

If the COP want to put their leader through that and make him the laughing stock of the nation go brave, try again, you cant win your seat but you trying to get a foothold on it through the court system. Does this man ever fight for anything? :roll: Some of you getting on as if COP in the lead in all these seat and the other party trying to take it from them, the fact of the matter from all reports coming in is the COP is trailing in these seats that they are making all this fuss about.

Making an issue of this is only going to anger the voting public and I have no idea what Ramlogan was thinking with this one.

I dunno how else to point out the issue isn't the dual citizenship but the fact they hold passports that represent an allegiance to a foreign power. If Solomon holding a foreign passport haul him out the race too. If he just born dey and the story ends at that well it have no case.
That about sums it up .
IMO however , as long as they do not aspire to the office of Prime Minister or President ,they should be allowed to run for any other public office .

[Somebody007]

all we only doing is spinning weself round in circles. What is the real point here....are Bharath and Meighoo guilty of a crime or not???

That's for the courts to decide isn't it? Innocent until proven guilty. All I'm saying is taking the passport issue into account, a case can very likely be made to stop them contesting those seats or holding them if they win them.


I was arguing your same point in the begining in the first instance.....let the courts decide....but lets assume that they have been found guilty, then what is the next step...providing that both contestants win their respective constituencies.

[Maccogirl]

Right and these people going to get into government and take T&T money and refurbish the Queens palace, and give Bush money for the war so I can see why some of you are so scared about these people sitting in parliament, T&T will now be funding USA and England nothing for T&T again, all yuh right this is a major issue I just quaking in my shoes thinking of what Trinidad will become when these evil persons with allegiance to the foreign powers get into parliament......leh we all run for the hills yes :roll: :roll:

[Sirius]

all we only doing is spinning weself round in circles. What is the real point here....are Bharath and Meighoo guilty of a crime or not???

That's for the courts to decide isn't it? Innocent until proven guilty. All I'm saying is taking the passport issue into account, a case can very likely be made to stop them contesting those seats or holding them if they win them.


I was arguing your same point in the begining in the first instance.....let the courts decide....but lets assume that they have been found guilty, then what is the next step...providing that both contestants win their respective constituencies.

Depends, I would say. If it happens before the 30th of October then just replace them with new candidates. If it is after October 30th but before November 5th, then the candidates would have to be pulled, and the UNC will lose out by their own negligence. So would the UNC supporters, but it would again be on the head of the UNC for not setting their house in order. They went through this issue before; they should know better. If it happens after the 5th of November, then hold a by-election.

[JPersad]

MG ,
SB007 asked a very valid question .
The last time I checked the Queen was doing just fine on her own and President Bush , no matter his low approval ratings , still getting funding for Iraq from the US Congress.
I hope that part is cleared up for you . 8-)

[Somebody007]

Right and these people going to get into government and take T&T money and refurbish the Queens palace, and give Bush money for the war so I can see why some of you are so scared about these people sitting in parliament, T&T will now be funding USA and England nothing for T&T again, all yuh right this is a major issue I just quaking in my shoes thinking of what Trinidad will become when these evil persons with allegiance to the foreign powers get into parliament......leh we all run for the hills yes :roll: :roll:


I think you watching too much programming on the Sci Fi channel yes....

[Maccogirl]

New candidates old candidates same cut arse so what is the point of the exercise??? What is the point of putting the people through another election so say what look what the COP can do we bring them to court, what happen Annan does get his kicks from being in the press, all yuh good yes get off your butts and go do some work on the ground just like all the other activists that is what the COP should be doing. :roll:

[Acid]

Well if Dookeran loses his seat he will say that he was not beaten by a Trinidadian.

Just like when in 1995 when it was 17-17-2, Manning said he did not lose and then in 2000 when it was 19-17 he again calim he didn't legally lose.

Dookeran and Manning looking real similar now.

[Somebody007]

Panday and the UNC have yet to show up in Maraval and West Moorings to do some ground work in those areas Maccogirl.

[Sirius]

New candidates old candidates same cut arse so what is the point of the exercise??? What is the point of putting the people through another election so say what look what the COP can do we bring them to court, what happen Annan does get his kicks from being in the press, all yuh good yes get off your butts and go do some work on the ground just like all the other activists that is what the COP should be doing. :roll:

Well, the issue came up before the 30th, did it not? Here, instead of spinning around, try answering this: Why didn't the UNCA make sure their house was in order seeing as they went through a similar problem in the past? Sorry MG but the COP is not responsible for the UNCA putting up questionable candidates. Aren't you the one who says politics is a dirty business? If the UNCA can dish out, it can take. It get ketch with its pants down on allegiance issues, so let us see how they address it. It is high time allyuh stop blaming COP for UNCA's shortfalls. If the UNCA had its house in order, the COP would have no following, would not be "splitting" any vote, would not be finding out about candidates with foreign allegiances, and the list goes on.

[Somebody007]

New candidates old candidates same cut arse so what is the point of the exercise??? What is the point of putting the people through another election so say what look what the COP can do we bring them to court, what happen Annan does get his kicks from being in the press, all yuh good yes get off your butts and go do some work on the ground just like all the other activists that is what the COP should be doing. :roll:

Well, the issue came up before the 30th, did it not? Here, instead of spinning around, try answering this: Why didn't the UNCA make sure their house was in order seeing as they went through a similar problem in the past? Sorry MG but the COP is not responsible for the UNCA putting up questionable candidates. Aren't you the one who says politics is a dirty business? If the UNCA can dish out, it can take. It get ketch with its pants down on allegiance issues, so let us see how they address it. It is high time allyuh stop blaming COP for UNCA's shortfalls. If the UNCA had its house in order, the COP would have no following, would not be "splitting" any vote, would not be finding out about candidates with foreign allegiances, and the list goes on.


I agree with this point totally.

[Sumana]

This whole thread would make sense if Dookeran had any grounds to tell them to step down...But wait.....he doesn't :roll: wasting flippen bandwidth

[citizen]

Has anyone done an investigation as to how many PRESENT ministers have their U.S. green card or Canadian residence papers in hand? I think this whole thing is a joke. Look, the main export from Trinidad over the last 60 years has been people. Why? Because the people had the skills and education to migrate to the US, Canada, the UK, ... Indeed, what is wrong with considering a T&T citizen even if he/she has adopted dual citizenship but is willing to relinquish the additional nationality. What is the problem? Is it that we only want our own in government but are willing to bring in total foreigners into state owned and operated agencies? TSTT, Caribbean AIrlines, UDECOTT, ...

[Dispatcher]

When you apply for and hold a passport, you are pronouncing yourself a citizen of that country because the passport serves not only to identify your person, but your nationality! You are therefore declaring yourself as holding allegiance to that state. You are stating that you are entitled to protection and other services from that state.

You do not need a passport to get protection and other services from that state. Although the passport can serve to identify your nationality, you first have to prove your nationality before you can get a passport in the first place.

Your birth paper is what serves to identify your nationality. Or Naturalisation documentation should you go through that process.

You do not have to have a passport at all to be a citizen of a country. If you do not travel you do not need a passport. You can prove you citizenship otherwise.

Having the passport is just a convenient document for identification. It does not make you anymore a citizen of the country than someone who does not have a passport. You do not have to pledge allegiance to the country when you apply for a passport. It is a natural extension of already being a citizen.

Jamal can get a UK passport tomorrow if he applied. Bharath can tear up his passport tonight if he want, but they are still considered British with or without the passport and can both benefit from the services of the UK if desired.


They can however not exercise that citizenship by not applying for services of that state (the passport being a document representing such), or if they want to serve in government, relinquish those services.

There is nothing to state that if you apply for a passport you are pledging allegiance to the state anymore than if you did not apply for the passport. You maybe benefiting in some way, but the passport itself does not mean you have a greater allegiance than if you did not have a passport.

The law says if you pledge allegiance. There is a pledge that all countries expect a new national to recite on accepting its nationality. In effect pledging loyalty to that country. Neither of the candidates had to do that to get their passport.

The law is clear and you all are just making a mountain out of a mole hill and in the long run showing the desperation of your cause.

[Dispatcher]

Well, the issue came up before the 30th, did it not? Here, instead of spinning around, try answering this: Why didn't the UNCA make sure their house was in order seeing as they went through a similar problem in the past?
It is not a similar issue. Previously those candidates voluntarily applied for foreign citizenship. This time round they follow the letter of the law.

The UNCA house is in order. The Law is very much on their side. Its plain and concise. Ramlogan just looking like a fool looking for loopholes to save their a$$ because that is the only way they might get a few extra votes.


Sorry MG but the COP is not responsible for the UNCA putting up questionable candidates.
They are not questionable. Only gullible sheep will take on Ramlogan and question the candidates validity.


It is high time allyuh stop blaming COP for UNCA's shortfalls.
Shortfalls? Keep dreaming. Nobody blaming CoP we just showing the idiocy of Ramlogan's understanding of the law. Let them take it to the courts if the dare. They will be made the laughing stock of Trinidad.

[Sirius]

You're missing the point. The law makes allowances for people born overseas. It does not however make allowances for people with allegiances overseas. Applying for and getting a passport is an act of showing your allegiance to that state by choosing to exercise your citizenship there and the rights that accompany it. Same would be true of a national ID card. THIS is the fundamental issue. By getting that passport, they are not merely being a dual citizen by default (which is perfectly allowable), but they are showing allegiance to that foreign power by exercising the rights associated with it (which is not allowable according to our constitution if one wishes to run for office). The passport in and of itself does not give rights. But the act of applying for it and choosing to hold it shows that you have an allegiance to that state.

Here, point form:
- Being a citizen by birth is not choosing allegiance
- Exercising rights such as acquiring a passport shows choosing allegiance
- Our constitution makes allowances for dual citizenship not of choice; e.g. by birth
- Our constitution does not make allowances for choosing allegiance; e.g. willfully acquiring an official foreign identification (passport)

[Acid]

This is the British Passport renewal form:
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/670a2 ... form,3.pdf (http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/670a21f8ular-2fbno-2daform,3.pdf)

No where on it does it require you to make an allegiance.

Sirius et al where did you get info that you are making a foreign allegiance?

[skl]

This is the British Passport renewal form:
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/670a2 ... form,3.pdf (http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/670a21f8ular-2fbno-2daform,3.pdf)

No where on it does it require you to make an allegiance.

Sirius et al where did you get info that you are making a foreign allegiance?

question.. doesnt declaring you are a British national (Section 7.3) mean you are declaring/accepting your allegence to Britain ?

[Sirius]

This is the British Passport renewal form:
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/670a2 ... form,3.pdf (http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kfile/670a21f8ular-2fbno-2daform,3.pdf)

No where on it does it require you to make an allegiance.

Sirius et al where did you get info that you are making a foreign allegiance?

question.. doesnt declaring you are a British national (Section 7.3) mean you are declaring/accepting your allegence to Britain ?

^^^ skl has it right there.

You cannot help being born where you were born. But it is up to you to declare your allegiance to a country by applying for your rights as a citizen there, which includes utilizing that country's identification card or passport.

Forget PNM/UNC/COP for now. My personal objective stance is the constitution needs a lot of amendments and one is that dual citizenship be allowed period (i.e. voluntary or involuntary dual citizenship) so far as being an MP is concerned. What I am saying is that by the letter of the current law, there is a case to be made by stating applying for and holding a passport counts as a declaration of allegiance to a foreign nation. The passport is one of the documents that you can present to declare yourself a citizen; i.e. holding allegiance to the state in question. You cannot volunteer to be a birthright citizen and that is what the current constitution allows for. But you can volunteer to exercise that allegiance, which the current constitution excludes.

Going back into a political stance now, the reason I am surprised by these developments and why I say the UNCA has no excuse for this to happen is because they landed themselves in a very similar situation a few years ago. If a party makes a mistake that caused a fiasco and then comes back making the same mistake, what kind of message are they giving me as a voter about their competency and their ability to abide by the law? The UNCA wants my vote, but they are not doing a very good job of convincing me to jump ship. If they cannot convince the COP crowd to jump to their ship, the UNCA is doomed to opposition once again.

[Maccogirl]

Some of you COP supporters like you all have nothing else to study. When there are issues like high food prices, traffic, kidnapping, runaway spending, a coming dictatorship, no water, bad roads, and on and on you really feel that people should forget all that and study if Vashant, Kirk and Mikela should sit in parliament if they win??

Fine they run and win and the COP still unhappy with that take them to court and let the UNCA put some new faces and beat you again what is the big deal, you honestly feel that moving them if they win going increase Dookerans chances of winning his seat? Kirk already said Dookeran is his Uncle and he knew of his status long ago so why is he making an issue about it now?

I hope the COP moving Jamal and Solomon also in the meantime let COP check on the PNM side see if there are a few there to move also Imbert is one so they can start there, check all the others too no problem. If that is all some of you have to study in the mean while we have Lenny Saith and his son, Calder Hart, Authr Lok Jack , Sabga , DOMA and the whole pack of them bleeding this country dry, well Raheal gone but he made millions in the process. yet some of you coming on here and trying to tell people to dig into their conscience and think if Mikela , Kirk and Vashant should not run, like some of you forgetting what really going on. :roll: :roll:

[Somebody007]

eh allyuh we giving Maccogirl plenty pressure with this kind of talk. Ah starting to feel sorry for she now.

[Maccogirl]

Somebody I sure you are one of the Westmorring posse I done tell you Westmorring ain't have enough uppity people living dey to move the PNM and give COP a win, so doh study me I good because no matter what I know UNCA winning seats unlike the COP them getting zero :D :D

[Somebody007]

Somebody I sure you are one of the Westmorring posse I done tell you Westmorring ain't have enough uppity people living dey to move the PNM and give COP a win, so doh study me I good because no matter what I know UNCA winning seats unlike the COP them getting zero :D :D


Yeah ah supporting COP on the forum but who say I voting for them come November 5th. At the end of the day the two parties I'd much rather see in Parliment are the PNM and the COP. I doh wannah see ah Golden Grove man sitting in the Red House at all.

[Maccogirl]

Good for you so I looking forward to seeing you at Rowely meeting today westmorring by the sea 7.30 get yuh jersey and come it go be good :D :D

[Somebody007]

Good for you so I looking forward to seeing you at Rowely meeting today westmorring by the sea 7.30 get yuh jersey and come it go be good :D :D


You coming to the meeting with ah jersey too???

[Maccogirl]

You coming to the meeting with ah jersey too???

Nah PNM want $35.00 for a jersey I not paying that Manning could haul he tail :D :D

[Somebody007]

Ah hear dem UNC jerseys doh wash properly in the washing machine...so it means yuh could only wear it once and throw it way in d dustbin cuz big holes does show up in the jersey when yuh try to wash it......hmmmm....what a contrast between ah UNC jersey and dey party eh......

[Sumana]

Considering I have a jersey that I've been wearing multiple times, and it's being washed multiple times and it's still fine, stop saying you hear you hear you hear and start talking fact

[Somebody007]

Allyuh please be careful about what comments you make please....Zerothree now tell me that people make some comments on the Jack Warner thread that can be considered libel. Be careful please.

[rivers]

but wait nah, you mean to tell me the UNC can't get people who are national and don't have dual citizenship? I mean macco is a big sycophant so why didn't he make she a candidate for one of those seats. I mean it's not like the UNC has a process of selecting their candidates, all panday has to do is say I want she, and bam just so she is a candidate for one place or the other.

The other thing, did Meighoo scrap his party? Just the other day he was on Umbala talking about they going to have two people running in tobago, but he was undecided for which district he going to run for, and he even went on to say that couldn't join with the UNC, and now there he is. You know, I have to sometimes wonder about the followers of such a morally backrupt party.

[Somebody007]

but wait nah, you mean to tell me the UNC can't get people who are national and don't have dual citizenship? I mean macco is a big sycophant so why didn't he make she a candidate for one of those seats. I mean it's not like the UNC has a process of selecting their candidates, all panday has to do is say I want she, and bam just so she is a candidate for one place or the other.

The other thing, did Meighoo scrap his party? Just the other day he was on Umbala talking about they going to have two people running in tobago, but he was undecided for which district he going to run for, and he even went on to say that couldn't join with the UNC, and now there he is. You know, I have to sometimes wonder about the followers of such a morally backrupt party.



hehehe....lol...... :D :D :D :D

[skl]

well DNA have two Tobago candidates but they not part of the UNCA, the UNCA didnt even endorse them , they endorse the DAC candidates.

Meighoo running as part of UNCA but he still supposedly the DNA leader.

[vaio]

Meighoo just plain greedy...'good looking' or not... that makes him an ugly person.

[Sumana]

You mean this thread is still going on about a non-issue? Desperation within the COP running high

[nikkidan]

I've read this entire thread and not one post dealt with the precedent judgement by Justices Michael De Labasite and Sat Sharma at the time when the Chaitan, Gypsy case was going on.

fact is COP has no real case, and they are wasting their time, trying to discredit unc-a candidates on moot arguments. I wish i could get my hands on a copy of that judgement just to show that the 2 gentlemen can well contest the election, based on the binding precedence of the previous judgement

what Dookeran should focus on is the cut tail he is likely to get in st.augustine when all is said and done. because it surely booked.

meantime, pnm was focused on other things until patrick just had to put his foot in his mouth about caroni workers.

and nobody seems to think that parties having jamaican dancehall artists to entertain youts to vote for dem is pure kakaholeness...

the circus continues.

[Maccogirl]

All yuh doh study Somebody them Westmorring COP people can afford washing machine, but the UNCA people not so high and fancy we could only hand wash we clothes and hang it out to dry so we UNCA jersey will last us a long time. :lol: :lol:

Rivers Panday did not ask me to run but Manning did and ah turn him down, you did'nt know that though :mrgreen:

[Somebody007]

I've read this entire thread and not one post dealt with the precedent judgement by Justices Michael De Labasite and Sat Sharma at the time when the Chaitan, Gypsy case was going on.

fact is COP has no real case, and they are wasting their time, trying to discredit unc-a candidates on moot arguments. I wish i could get my hands on a copy of that judgement just to show that the 2 gentlemen can well contest the election, based on the binding precedence of the previous judgement

what Dookeran should focus on is the cut tail he is likely to get in st.augustine when all is said and done. because it surely booked.

meantime, pnm was focused on other things until patrick just had to put his foot in his mouth about caroni workers.

and nobody seems to think that parties having jamaican dancehall artists to entertain youts to vote for dem is pure kakaholeness...

the circus continues.



hehehehehe......lol...... :D :D :D :D :D

[Somebody007]

All yuh doh study Somebody them Westmorring COP people can afford washing machine, but the UNCA people not so high and fancy we could only hand wash we clothes and hang it out to dry so we UNCA jersey will last us a long time. :lol: :lol:

Rivers Panday did not ask me to run but Manning did and ah turn him down, you did'nt know that though :mrgreen:



Oh my goodness, Hulsie, is that you???

[JPersad]

UNC supporters need to worry about when RLM is going to stab Bas in the back again .
That is all .

[nikkidan]

RLM has a job to do, it might well involve stabbing Bas in the back, but he has to keep him out of jail and get pnm people..

but i feel if ramesh file still fresh, that cop candidate who probably still has goverment furntiure in the personal house might want to get rid of it now...

this place jokey yes.

things going awry in this place and all people could study is personalities and petty stuff.

[nikkidan]

double post

[nikkidan]

:?:

[nikkidan]

could one of the moderators delete these repeat posts please. thank you very much.

[nikkidan]

:arrow:

[nikkidan]

:!:

[bluemellow]

this is what vashant is known for: rice scandal,

If you hadn't realised Bharath was exonerated by the inquiry into the whole affair. You can read an article on it here:

http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005 ... news8.html (http://www.guardian.co.tt/archives/2005-05-01/news8.html)


urinating on himself in a state of drunken stupor.

Like you was there. You have any proof of that?

That is why intelligent people moving away from the CoP. They realise that is only ole tork they getting from that platform.

clearly nobody have proof of ANYTHING the UNC has "allegedly" done.
No proof bas didnt know bout the $10M either.
No proof of any of the allegations made against Jack.


And, yes, only ole talk like dicussing things that actually MATTER about the country... no red berets, bigotry and blatant hypocrisy and lies like UNC.
allyuh blind AND deaf, yes.

[Somebody007]

Ah see Mickela Panday telling the COP that she is a trini by birth and doh have no UK passport.

[Maccogirl]

Yes and she also said if Ganga and Anand know differently bring the proof so if they do all they have to do is just that and stop talking s#hit :roll:

[Somebody007]

Obviously, now that Dookeran loose his seat, maybe he might challenge Bharath and Meighoo in court now. Them have foreign passports.