GOD(s) = Extra-Terrestrials ?

[happyangel]

GOD(s) = Extra-Terrestrials ?

In the past, our ancestors didn't have today's knowledge and understanding of the univers and of life...
Is it possible that in the past what ALL religions and mythologies describe as God(s) would be a misunderstanding of relations between mankind and people coming from the sky, (E.T. = Elohim, Allah, Anounaki, Vishnu, Zeus, God, etc.) ??
:alien:
I read the books of Rael and for me, it explains so much of what seems to be mysteries and weak explainations... have a look !
Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers :study:

[Didi]

You might find "Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods?" interesting.
Here's a link to his HP:
http://www.evdaniken.com/

[roger]

The messages dictated to Rael explain that life on Earth is not the result of random evolution, nor the work of a supernatural 'God'. It is a deliberate creation, using DNA, by a scientifically advanced people who made human beings literally "in their image" -- what one can call "scientific creationism."

*** It says:
...nor the work of a supernatural 'God'.
In Genesis 1:1- it says "In the beginning God created..." and throughout the Bible God is supernatural. To Saul he said "God is not a man...nor the son of man...". So Mr Rael is effectively contradicting the Bible.



It is a deliberate creation, using DNA...

*** Where did they get the DNA?



...by a scientifically advanced people...

*** Where did these scientifically advanced people come from, that is, who created them?

The author Mr Rael is evidently basing his book on spurious assumptions so unless he can clarify the above queries I would have no interest in reading further into his work.

My understanding is that the Anunaki are Noah, his wife and their three sons and three daughters [8 total].

Strangely enough those who apparently invented and developed the worship of men and women in place of God were those that seem also to have invented incest. They had a penchant for perversion from the beginning.

Vishnu is Noah's son Ham and he committed the act with his mother (Noah's wife). Zeus I understand is Mizraim son of Ham and he committed the act with his mother Ishtar and bore Aphrodite.



Roger

[brag]

Roger, maybe you can also tell us how you sleep at night when you go about spreading such propaganda about other people's religions. You can't even prove that Adam and Eve existed much less Ham and Vishnu. The debate is still going on about the meaning of Adam and Eve, and here you want to tell us that Vishnu is an offspring of this couple and was born out of incest.

Many Hindus understand the concept of Vishnu as they also do other aspects of their religion in a variety of ways, not only in one way. One understanding is that Vishnu is a personification of the power of thought, Brahma the power of word and Shiva the power of deed in love. Deites of God are not considered earthly personalities, and are different from your Adam and Eve. They are deities or functions of God (Brahman) which Hindus personify for greater understanding and meaning in their lives according to their varying capacities for understanding.

Hinduism or Sanathana Dharma is about the science of human behaviors based on natural, universal laws. They constituted only a way of life of a people for ages, until about a hundred or so years ago when the British decided it, too, constituted a religion. So now it is accepted by Hindus, too, as a religion, philosophy, science, and a way of life all packed in one.

You might find it important first to understand all the symbolisms of the Hindu religion to appreciate its full meaning and impact on Hindus. Symbolism also constitutes one of the languages of God in the Hindu religion. If you want to believe in a non scientific religion that is strictly up to you. But it might be helpful for you to refrain from talking about other people's religions as if you know much about them when you seem like you don't.

So if the Abrahamic religions emerged out of Adam and Eve, what is the problem with incest for the purpose of populating the earth? If God wanted the Abrahamic religions to emerge out of a larger population, He would have made it so and your scriptures would have told a different story.

So you either trust your scriptures or you don't. Perhaps you can learn something when you try not to mislead others. Quotations from scriptures may sometimes be helpful, but truly what do they really prove?

[roger]

Many Hindus understand the concept of Vishnu as they also do other aspects of their religion in a variety of ways, not only in one way. One understanding is that Vishnu is a personification of the power of thought, Brahma the power of word and Shiva the power of deed in love.

*** You say this is one understanding of Vishnu etc, can you give us another?

My understanding is that the sevenfold Spirit of God (who you call Brahman) did in fact divide himself to his creatures in the ancient past and does so also today even as it is written in the Scriptures of the "Spirit ...dividing to every man severally as he wills" [1 Corinthians 12:11]. So I believe men like Noah, Shem, Ham and Japheth did have manifestations of the Spirit of God in their lives.

But I am also of the view that that power and that wisdom given by God were sometimes abused by some of these men.

With respect to Vishnu I understand Noah/ Anu was ruler over the highlands (called heaven) in those days, his son Japheth/ Enlil was ruler of the earth and Ham the ruler of the marshlands or abyss. Now the lowlands seem to fit the description of what was called Nu or chaos in those days so the one who pervades throughout that region was fittingly called VishNu where Vish means "to pervade".



You might find it important first to understand all the symbolisms of the Hindu religion to appreciate its full meaning and impact on Hindus. Symbolism constitutes the language of God in the Hindu religion.

*** This is what I am about doing, deciphering the symbolism in ancient beliefs and trying to demystify them.




So if the Abrahamic religions emerged out of Adam and Eve, what is the problem with incest for the purpose of populating the earth?

*** I think it is appropriate at this point to clarify some issues as I see them. Firstly if my reference to incest earlier seemed offensive my intention there was not to offend anyone. My aim is to unveil truth so that those who have been living in darkness might come out of it and correct their lives.

The incest of Abram and his wife I liken to someone illegally driving on the Priority Bus Route. If the police catch you they will penalize you with a ticket and order you off the route. They usually tell you to get off at the next exit so that between where they stop you and the next exit you may continue to drive without further penalty. Beyond the exit however you can be penalized again.

Similarly the sin of Adam and Eve brought mortality, that is, death. But it stands to reason that if they were to have lived forever bearing children then there would have been no further need for anyone else to bear children.

That however is not how the script was written: as we know they sinned and death came so now the issue of their children bearing children became a reality and with it incest because propogation of the human species could not have happened otherwise in those circumstances.

Now, the human race was already punished with death for the original sin so the necessary evil of incest had to be tolerated by God until the next exit came as with the traveller on the PBR. The type of incest of a brother marrying his sister was therefore tolerated until Moses, that is, after that dispensation of 24 generations was completed.

So from Adam to Jacob mankind could have continued to travel on the PBR of incest figuratively speaking until they reached the exit where it is now said in Leviticus 23 that all such acts are banned.

What Ham did however was evidently not in the package of what was allowed: it was not necessary to marry one's mother to procreate since your mother would have already been married to your father and bearing children for him.

So Ham's incest was sin even when the act in general was permitted by law. Noah's curse upon Canaan as punishment for Ham's sin was therefore effective by law, that is, by the law of God.

Today no form of incest as described in Lev.23 is tolerable to God so stopping it and making amends to those offended as far as practical is what is required of offenders apart from what the laws of TnT requires.

I hope this clarifies things somewhat.




Roger, maybe you can also tell us how you sleep at night when you go about spreading such propaganda about other people's religions...
...Perhaps you can learn something when you try not to mislead others.

*** I think you are being grossly unfair if you are here accusing me of spreading propoganda or trying to mislead others.




Roger

[brag]

Your post comes across as being filled with your own personal baggage about Hinduism, and if you don't know it, then you need to study it carefully and look for the baggage. So I am not accusing you of anything other than dealing with your baggage in an irresponsible manner, especially when Hindu bashing is a modern sport of the proselytizers.

When you associate Vishnu with incest, what are you saying to Hindus? When you say that those who developed the worship of men and women were those that seem also to have invented incest, what are you saying to Hindus? Look at the juxtapositioning of those two sentences. You know very well that Hindus regard all names and forms as God's names and forms. So what are you saying in your entire post?

I suppose you consider yourself more enlightened that all others, and can tell who is living in darkness and who is not. That is the same language that is used by many Christians when they approach Hindus and try to convert them, even at the expense of destroying Hindu family unity.

We are told that God only looks at the heart and one act of true love and compasion can wipe out all wrongs or what you call sins. Hindus go on to say that if we cannot do all that is prescribed, then we do only one with sincerity, and that will be enough to win God's grace for salvation.

Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are about the cooordination of thoughs, words and deeds for the benefit of mankind. God is One for Hindus with many names and forms that carry out God's works. It also means that we make every effort to say what we think and do what we say out of the good intentions of our hearts for the greater good of all as the measure of man's unity with God as One. One can use this concept as a religion, and there will be no need for any other religion as long as one is true to that belief as a mantra.

Perhaps you blame God for incest, but wish to place the blame on those who worship men and women as God. Even when God went about providing laws later to correct the results of the violation by Adam and Eve, you seem to be questioning how incest started. Perhaps you think that God was not aware of what he was doing, and the consequences from it.

While parent-child incest continued for ages since Adam and Eve until aggressive legislation that attempted to stop it, it still continues today with lesser frequency in the general population. It was only for medical reasons that criminal and family laws came about to stop it in many countries, and yet it continues today inspite of the laws of God and man.

[brag]

I wouldn't deny extra terrestrials, but I am not sold on the idea. There are many stories about extra-terrestrials, and one has to wonder about them. I know it is believed in some quarters that modern man with high thinking and acting capacities are extra-terrestrials among us. Some of the so called indigo children among us are considered to be extra terrestrials by some, but who really knows?

I recently read of an out-of-body experience by someone who was taken through another dimension of life to the US to examine the drug laboratories and the manufacture of drugs. But all he saw in the laboratories were huge green lizards who are the manufacturers of deceptive drugs for human needs. What they were really doing is weakening human capacity and feeding themselves from human intelligence for their own gains. Now that can be interpreted as mind over matter, so who really knows.

[roger]

Brag, I asked for other understandings of what Vishnu represents and will still like the answer. I further put forward the following analysis for your comments.

Quotes from Wikipedia:


(i) Lakshmi in Sanskrit is derived from its elemental form "lakS," meaning to perceive or observe.[2] This is synonymous with Template:Lak?ya, meaning aim or objective. Lakshmi is thus goddess of the means to achieving objectives, including prosperity in the lives of humankind.

(ii) She is the consort of Vishnu[3] and married Rama (in her incarnation as Sita) and Krishna (as Rukmini).

(iii) Rama (IAST: r?ma, Devan?gar?: ???, Khmer: ????????, Thai: ??????, Lao: ??????, Burmese: Yama, Tagalog: Rajah Bantugan) or Ramachandra was a legendary king of Ayodhya in ancient India. In Hinduism,[1] he is considered to be an avatar of Vishnu[2] and a lila-avatara as described in the Bhagavata Purana.[3] A significant section of Hindus do not doubt his historicity, and consider him an actual king who ruled over a large part of what is now India from his capital Ayodhya.

(iv) Avatar or Avatara (Sanskrit: ?????, IAST Avat?ra), often translated into English as incarnation, literally means descent (avatarati) and usually implies a deliberate descent from higher spiritual realms to lower realms of existence for special purposes

(v) A host of divine celestial objects came up during the churning. Among these, importantly, was Goddess Lakshmi, the daughter of the king of the milky ocean.

(vi) Sri Lakshmi, very much later married Shri Vishnu. Shri is a honorofic address that is probably derived from Lakshmi and is used till date for males all over India. The equivalent for females is "Srimati" if she is married.

(vii) Lakshmi is thus goddess of the means to achieving objectives



*** So from (i) above even as Vishnu is a god so is Lakshmi a goddess.


*** From (ii) above "She is the consort of Vishnu" which means that the Vishnu you refer to as a divine principle has a wife


*** Also according to (ii) "She ... married Rama" so Lakshmi also got married to someone else other than her husband


*** According to (iii) "Rama ... was a legendary king of Ayodhya in ancient India. ...A significant section of Hindus do not doubt his historicity, and consider him an actual king who ruled over a large part of what is now India from his capital Ayodhya" and was therefore a human being.


*** Also from (iii) "In Hinduism,[1] he [Rama] is considered to be an avatar of Vishnu" and from (iv) "Avatar ... literally means descent"This means that Rama was therefore the human offspring of Vishnu and possibly Lakshmi was his mother.


Further, if Rama is in fact the son of Lakshmi it will mean that Lakshmi married her son even as I claim. I said earlier that Vishnu is Ham, Lakshmi is evidently Ishtar and according to other myths Ishtar had an affair with one of her sons Mizraim probably.



*** (v) and (vii) Confirm that she was a goddess and that she had parents.


*** (vi) says "Sri Lakshmi, very much later married Shri Vishnu..." which confirms that Lakshmi was the wife of Vishnu.


Brag, those references I used were taken from Wikipedia. Can you comment on whether my reading of meaning into those reports are valid?

I ask this in the interest of understanding the truth behind the religions and philosiophies that surround us all.




Roger

[happyangel]

Roger,


Where did these scientifically advanced people come from, that is, who created them?
The Elohim were created by other Elohim whom in turn were created by other Elohim, and so on. And one day soon, we will be able to do the same – we will be able to create life on another planet. And that life, once they have the scientific knowledge, will create on other planets, and so on. There is no beginning and no end to creation – it is infinit!


Where did they get the DNA?
The Elohim have a perfect mastering of DNA. They are able to create life by manipulating inert matter. Since I am not a scientist I do not know how this is done. However, if you read the book Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers you will find the answer to your question - to all your questions!

[brag]

Roger, I appreciate your interest in trying to learn about Hinduism. I am sorry if I did not answer all your questions to your satisfaction. The Internet is sometimes helpful, but it is not a true Guru from whom most Hindus learn about Hinduism. My only hope, though, is that when we learn about other religions it is not for the purpose of religion bashing, but for inspiring others to remain faithful in their beliefs and become better and stronger believers and citizens.

You seem to be onto something when you connect Vishnu with the Abrahamic religions. Some people make a connection with Brahma and Saraswatie, as well. They also point to Moses, Jesus and Mary in India, too. But as we say from observation, Hinduism is the mother of all religions and much more is being concluded today about the cradle of civilization.

You ask some logical and interesting questions, the in- depth answers to which I feel the lack of proper knowledge and meaningful information. I will not be doing you a good service if I do not research them further myself and provide the answers that I intuitively feel are correct.

I briefly provided some answers with the hope that they may continue to stimulate your interest and curiosity in Hinduism or for you to compare them with what you already know from your own research.

I am sorry to say that I am not an Guru, and I never learned from a Guru as such, but from the Guru resident in my heart. To be versed in Hinduism is neither easy nor simple, and it takes a long time to integrate information and knowledge in Hinduism, as practice.

The gulf between Hinduism and Christianity seems very wide in terms of differing Hindu concepts, philosophies and practices, but close in terms of the worship of Avataras of God like Rama, Krishna and Jesus.

Learning about Hinduism requires many formats of learning as is everything else, as well as many years. We often say that learning about Hinduism takes many lifetimes. Learning and practicing Hinduism is like studying in a system of education from kindergarten to the PhD and post PhD training levels, where practice varies from person to person as they move up or fail to move up the various ladders of education. The study also requires the daily practice of Dharma for it to sink in well, especially for understanding and practice as needed.

In your search for more understanding about Vishnu, I may add from general knowledge that Vishnu is considered God in Totality, a celestial representative of God, a celestial manifestation of God, the absolute; the power of God, a keeper of one of the abodes or Lokas of God, a manifestation of the formless Brahman, an agent of God, a minister of God in his council of administrators, some of the forces of God in the area of integration, preservation and maintenance, aspects of the forces of nature in all bodies and systems for integration, analysis and maintenance, etc. You may google the Vishnu Sahasranama or thousand names of Vishnu for more information about the meaning of Vishnu.

But again, Hindus also do not differentiate between the formless God, Brahman and God in form as Vishnu, the deity of God, or for that matter any name of God. For Hindus, manifestation is an emergence from God, not a creation of God. So everything is God.

The word God is the same as the concept, God, for all Hindus--(Generation, Organization and Dissolution or the functions of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) the whole as One with many functional compartments, each governed by its own presiding deities of God, the same as in the human body, the microcosm of the macrocosm, with many coordinating functions in the unitary whole of the human body.

The Shiva Lingam or ellipse, without beginning nor end, symbolizes God as the entire Cosmos or Totality that represents Brahma at the base, Vishnu at the middle and Shiva at the top. The prayer grass or Kush when used for ceremonial purposes is used similarly to the Shiva Lingam; the bottom symbolizes or represents Brahma, the middle Vishnu and the knot made at the top, Shiva. So when Hindus use symbols for God they are always mindful of God, the Absolute.

Yes, Hindus do pray to deities of God or intercessors for both successes/prosperity in life, and for liberation (moksha) from the bondage of the repeated process of birth and death. Many of the Hindu pujas are both methods of worship of God and petitions to God for material success or prosperity which is among the purushartha or four goals of a Hindu life. (Google Hindu Shaktism).

THE FOUR GOALS AND FOUR STAGES OF LIFE


The Four Goals of Life

Major aspects of Hindu dharma known as purushartha are:

Kama: Seeking physical (sensual love) or emotional pleasure within the limits of dharma.

Artha: As kama pursuit has a limiting satisfaction after while, artha or seeking power, fame and wealth will be complementary.

Dharma: With age and maturity, one will have the joy of living in harmony with dharma.

Moksha: The real and infinite goal of one life.

The Four Stages of Life

Known as four Ashramas, they are:

Brahmacharya: The first 20 years of life , preceded by the Upanayanam ceremony during which a child is considered to be born again. Brahmacharya is pure contemplation of life's secrets under a Guru.

Grihastha : next 40 years (20-60) is the householder's stage. One married, will satisfy karma and artha within a married life and career.

Vanaprastha: Next 20 years (60-80) is the detachment from the material world and entering in contemplation and pilgrimage.

Sanyasa: conception of the mystic life to prepare the next life or moksha.



http://www.religion-religions.com/html/ ... n=Hinduism (http://www.religion-religions.com/html/sub_chapter.php?select=hindu000600&religion=Hinduism)




Shiva-Shakti is the principle of male and female energies or a combination of matter and spirit in all life forms. So when Hindus speak about Gods and Goddesses, they also speak about the male and female divine energies (matter and spirit, Shiva-Shakti or the oriental Ying and Yang) that makes up any whole, the female energy being essential energy for activation, without which the male counterpart is disadvantaged.

Some believe that Shiva without His consort Parvati cannot be the totality of God, Shiva; this is similar in Vishnu without Lakshmi and Brahma without Sraswatie. Some may even say that Spirit is male energy and Matter female energy or vice versa, but most Hindus believe that one cannot exist without the other in the material world, and hence all names and forms are God for most Hindus.

The most recent Avataras, those of Shirdi Sai Baba and Sathya Sai Baba manifested without the parallel manifestation of a female counterpart, but which are integrated in their single Avartara form, the same as in the Avatara of Jesus. Shirdi Sai Baba also came as Shiva alone while Sathya Sai Baba came in his Shiva-Shakti energy form as a manifestation of Shiva.

In the third incarnation of Sai Baba as Prema Sai Baba, God will come, as it is reported, only in his Shakti energy, not a Shakti or female form, but in the purity of the energy of the Holy Spirit.

May I recommendation that you sit down with a learned, selfless-serving Pundit who is also called a Guru or God, and try and get a grasp of some of the concepts you wish to understand in depth.

The meaning of the male and female energies of God is very interesting, and for many, central to worship in Hinduism. Perhaps you will gain more understanding of how male and female energies inter-twine in human and celestial life forms or in light-forms like Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and their consorts.

Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Guru Nanak, Ramakrishna, Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai Baba, Ramana Maharishi and others are said to be Avataras of God or God in human forms. Even all human beings are considered as forms of God or lesser Avataras of God. Jesus said it best when he said to his disciples that when they serve anyone they serve him, Jesus.

God hears the cries and appeals of man for the transformation of man on earth, and manifests as Avataras or Divine teachers who inspire man for the transformation of the heart (consciousness).

Avataras live as human beings among men, and preach and teach as human beings, sometimes showing their powers and sometimes not. They come and leave, but not everyone recognizes them as God or the totality of God. Some are born as man, and progress to achieving full divine status over time. Others are born as Poorna Avataras in the fullness of God, and may undergo no change.

Each Avatara of God has a special function to perform, and teaches in His own unique way with an overriding message. So there are different kinds of Avataras of God. Krishna was a leela or playful Avatara. You can look up the Internet for the different kinds of Avataras. Sathya Sai Baba teaches that man is Divine and man needs to know about it and live up to it. He is regarded as an embodiment of the Vedas or Veda Purusha.

I regret if I come across as versed in Hinduism, but I am just a relatively new student of Hinduism, trying to find out more, and sharing with interested forumites only the little I discover and learn. Hopefully, these posts may clarify some misconceptions about Hinduism for those who wish some basic, elementary information. It does not suggest in any way that I am an expert or one also recruiting anyone into the Hindu religion or coercing anyone to change religions.

If Hindus feel a need to spread their religion around more, they can always do as Christians do by spreading the good news, the same as Jesus recommend to his disciples when he said "go out and spread the good news", and leave it just at that. People must decide for themselves when to act from what they hear and learn vs aggressively coercing them in a variety of ways to join new religions.

Many of us, Hindus, may intuitively grasp some of the Hindu concepts, because of the environment in which we live, but cannot always explain them to our own satisfaction or that of others.

It takes a life-time and more to develop a full grasp of the many Hindu concepts, perhaps like Advaitha or Smartism, and even then, one may not get it; so when some of us read a few books and begin to share what we know about Hinduism, we are only sharing a little of what we discover or learn, as an inspiration for the real work of true learning.

Developing a pure heart is emphasized for remaining a true Hindu. Living a life of Dharma in accord with the five basic, universal, human values of truth, right conduct, peace, love and non violence is essential to salvation. It reinforces the Dharma of translating the pleasures of material prosperity and success also into the pleasures of free giving and teaching the less fortunate how to fish for more than a day.

The Hindu concept of "barakat" is similar to the power exhibited in the miracle of the loaves and two fishes. It is a natural experience of the expansion or multiplication of all good deeds and material success experienced by many Hindus who always have food for many who need it. It also leads to salvation from the repeated cycle of birth and death or the constant back and forth between heaven and earth through reincarnation, whether one believes it or not.

Another recommendation would be for you to go to the link I posted on the Questions and Answers thread on Hinduism, and try asking some of your important questions. These guys appear to have learned very much about Hinduism, some of them having come from a Christian orientation, with seemingly in-depth information and knowledge, and a good understanding about Christianity, as well. While they seem to have a good grasp of Hinduism, every so often, some answers may leave you with much more questions and even some lingering doubts.

Just to juggle your mind a little, may I ask you to think about the concept of reincarnation, and see if there isn't the possibility of you marrying your own son or daughter from a past life, now born in another race and gender. It may be an opportunity for giving you the chance to undo a wrong you did to him/her in a previous life, as you continue heading home in each lifetime towards salvation. Such is the Grace of the same loving God of whom Hinduism never fails to speak..... (and you know the rest of the comparison from your own scriptures.) Jesus also said that many will be called, but few will be chosen, meaning succeed, I suppose.

The soul is said to have no gender, race, nationality, color, etc., and can be born anywhere in any race and gender. So would you believe it is like marrying someone in a new family where you were once a son or daughter in a previous life, even without the full knowledge of it?

I believe we do not meet or know each other by accident, as we may have been related in previous lives, experiencing another opportunity to undo or correct some of the mutual wrongs we did in previous lives.

Some devotees of Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba say that they were once Krishna's Gopis and Gopalas (male and female immediate devotees), and once again are serving in similar roles in the presence of the present Avatara, Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba. But again, who can say that they really know for sure. What we do know for sure is that faith in God confirms all truths?

Below is a quote from Bhagawan Shri Sathya Sai Baba, worthy of pondering and which was given at the recent Shivaratri festival in Prashanti Nilayam. Sathya Sai Baba is considered by millions as God in human form on earth, ushering the coming of the so called new age.

"The beauty of this sacred land of Bharat lies in its Forbearance! Of all the rituals, adherence to truth is the greatest penance. The nectarine feeling in this country is the feeling of love towards one's mother. Character is valued far more than the very life itself. People have forgotten the basic principles of this great culture and are imitating Western culture. Alas! Bharathiyas are not aware of the greatness of their cultural heritage just as a mighty elephant is not aware of its own strength.
(Telugu poem)

The elephant, unable to realize its innate strength, meekly submits itself to the commands of the mahout, who works for a paltry sum of money. It gets up and sits down as the mahout bids as it is trained by him.. Similarly Bharathiyas today blindly follow the western culture, quite forgetting their own rich and sacred heritage and culture. The culture of Bharath is very sacred, strong, and ancient. It is eternal and a beacon light that has and continues to guide all the countries of the world. Then how can the Bharathiyas forget their own great culture?

The culture of Bharath is such that it instills the philosophy where the mother and the father are to be respected like God. It exhorts every child to follow the axiom of 'Mathrudevo bhava' and 'Pithrudevo bhava' (mother is God; father is God). It does not stop just at this level alone it also urges one to follow the truism of 'Acharyadevo bhava' and 'Athithidevo bhava' (Teacher is God and the guest is God). If you tend to ignore the words of your own mother, whom else will you revere and respect?"

[roger]

The Elohim were created by other Elohim whom in turn were created by other Elohim, and so on.

*** And who created the first Elohim?



And one day soon, we will be able to do the same – we will be able to create life on another planet. And that life, once they have the scientific knowledge, will create on other planets, and so on.

*** In the ancient myths we read of the "gods" spitting out, vomiting and creating other "gods" and humans. Have you ever read of anyone in those writings bearing or bringing forth children, or of anyone being born?

The language used then was different so to them to "create", "spit out" etc means to bring forth or to beget.

Human beings have been bringing forth children for a very long time now: we have always been "creating" life on earth to use the terminology of the ancient texts.

It will therefore be no mystery if a couple goes to the moon say and has children there.

So yes, we might in the future be "creating life" on other planets.



There is no beginning and no end to creation – it is infinit!

*** To my understanding whatever is "infinite" cannot be altered so if the world changes it cannot be "infinite" as you say.




The Elohim have a perfect mastering of DNA. They are able to create life by manipulating inert matter. Since I am not a scientist I do not know how this is done.

*** Since you are not a scientist I think you should not be pronouncing on things on which you don't have facts.



However, if you read the book Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers you will find the answer to your question - to all your questions!

*** I read the abstract of the book but only found questions to the answers the author is proposing.


Roger

[happyangel]

And who created the first Elohim?
There is no first, no last, no beginning, no end. Everything was, is, and always will be in time and space and everything is cyclic. Because we humans are born, live and die, we think everything in the universe has a beginning and an end. Inifinity in time and space has no begining and no end, it just IS.

If one believes there is a beginning and an end to creation then one would logically think god was created by someone or something, which would also mean god is not infinite and has an end. With this premise in mind, how can one continue believing in the existence of an infinite god?


In the ancient myths we read of the "gods" spitting out, vomiting and creating other "gods" and humans. Have you ever read of anyone in those writings bearing or bringing forth children, or of anyone being born?
We were not 'born' from them so to speak, like a mother gives birth to a child. The Elohim created us scientifically in laboratories. They created us in their image.

[roger]

My only hope, though, is that when we learn about other religions it is not for the purpose of religion bashing, but for inspiring others to remain faithful in their beliefs and become better and stronger believers and citizens.

*** I am not quite sure what you mean by religion bashing. Are you saying if I point out something I think to be an error in a religious belief or practice I am bashing that religion?

I do not agree with the constraints you are trying to set here: you are saying that my probe should be to encourage devotees to remain faithful to what they believe regardless of how much in error I find that belief to be.

I think our objective should be to present the truth as we understand it and allow readers to decide for themselves whether or not they need to make a change in their existing form of devotions to God.




You seem to be onto something when you connect Vishnu with the Abrahamic religions. Some people make a connection with Brahma and Saraswatie, as well... But as we say from observation, Hinduism is the mother of all religions and much more is being concluded today about the cradle of civilization.

*** In my view the connection between Vishnu, Brama and the Abrahamic religions says nothing of Hinduism being the mother of all religions nor of India being the cradle of civilization.

Hinduism came out of one brother Ham [who I claim is Vishnu] whereas the Abrahamic religions came out of another brother Shem.

It is evident that Shem retained the 'religion' of their father Noah whereas Ham's descendents went astray developing their own concepts of God which was not of their father Noah.




The gulf between Hinduism and Christianity seems very wide in terms of differing Hindu concepts, philosophies and practices, but close in terms of the worship of Avataras of God like Rama, Krishna and Jesus.

*** Christianity worships God alone. Creatures of God such as men and angels are not to be worshipped.

So unless you are claiming that avatars of God from Brahma right down to Krishna and Sai Baba are God in the flesh as Jesus was then they should not be worshipped.

There are men of God like the prophets before Christ and apostles after him who were specially endowed by God to serve his purposes. These were not to be worshipped so much so that Paul and Peter both refused the worship men tried to give to them thinking them to be gods [records in the book of Acts].

Angels in the Bible likewise refused the worship of men for they are all creatures and not God.

Furthermore, my understanding is that God is the Omniscient, Omnipotent Omnipresence. Of these three the Omnipotent was incarnated in Jesus Christ and the scriptures predicted beforehand that that would have come to pass.

However, the scriptures never said that any of the others would be incarnated and actually warns against false claims of other incarnations saying that there shall be false Christs.

But even if all aspects of God were to be incarnated there are only two other parts. Now given that the Omnipresent Spirit of God is evidently sevenfold one can argue that there are as many as eight aspects remaining to be incarnated comprising one whole [Omniscient] and seven sub [Omnipresent] parts.

How many avatars do Hindus worship? Surely more than the nine parts into which God might be divided according to my understanding of the scriptures.

So I am saying that barring the fact that those who Hindus claim to be avatars and avataras are clearly merely human beings, the majority of whom don't even have the power prophets or apostles had to prove that they are of God, basic knowledge should tell us that it is impossible to have that many incarnations of God period.

I think you should therefore give some clarification on the myriad of deities or avatars Hindus worship in light of the above.




In your search for more understanding about Vishnu, I may add from general knowledge that Vishnu is considered God in Totality, a celestial representative of God, a celestial manifestation of God, the absolute; the power of God, a keeper of one of the abodes or Lokas of God, a manifestation of the formless Brahman,...

*** I still have not heard you say in what form has this manifestation taken place.

Is it in the form of elemental forces like wind and fire; is it emotions like wisdom and love; or is it a human form as a man?

Was Vishnu a human being?




... an agent of God, a minister of God in his council of administrators...

*** Now which is it, is Vishnu God in totality or an agent of God? Surely God is not his own agent and minister!




But again, Hindus also do not differentiate between the formless God, Brahman and God in form as Vishnu, the deity of God, or for that matter any name of God.
For Hindus, manifestation is an emergence from God, not a creation of God. So everything is God.

*** I don't follow this statement. Are you here saying that for Hindus all earth, trees, animals, humans, forces of nature etc are manifestations and not creations of God?

What do you mean by the statement "everything is God"? Should everything then be worshipped and should everything worship you and I because we are all God?

Please explain this Hindu concept.




The word God is the same as the concept, God, for all Hindus--(Generation, Organization and Dissolution or the functions of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva) the whole as One with many functional compartments,

*** You keep referring only to these three as God as though to equate them with the Christian concept of a triune God but you are not mentioning the others such as Lakshmi and the consorts/ wives of Brahma and Shiva.

You are not mentioning Ganesha and Rawan nor the sub-avatars of the original six, that is, the Ramas, Sitas etc.

Tell me if this is the concept in a nutshell: Brahman is the supreme eternal God who is a Spirit.

He manifested himself fundamantally as the three avatars of Brahma, Shiva and Vishnu. He also supplemented these fundamental manifestations with their avataras, which are their consorts/ wives, Sraswatie, Parvati and Lakshmi respectively.

These three fundamental parts of Brahman, complete with their supplemental aspects, remanifested themselves over and over down through the ages as Rama, Sita etc etc.




The meaning of the male and female energies of God is very interesting, and for many, central to worship in Hinduism. Perhaps you will gain more understanding of how male and female energies inter-twine in human and celestial life forms or in light-forms like Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and their consorts.

*** I think my comments in the last section above adequately captures this Hindu concept.




Rama, Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Guru Nanak, Ramakrishna, Shirdi Sai Baba, Sathya Sai Baba, Ramana Maharishi and others are said to be Avataras of God or God in human forms. Even all human beings are considered as forms of God or lesser Avataras of God.

*** If so then why should anyone worship the other if all are God? Should God worship himself?

And if you say God should worship himself then why don't Vishnu, Rama and Sai Baba worship each other and why do they not worship you also as God even as you worship them?

Hindus have certainly fallen into and maintained the ancient system created by Japheth/ Enlil and his cohorts, with all due respect to them.

In those ancient times the elders, called gods, needed servants to do some of the hard work of irrigating the land, digging canals to divert the Euphrates etc and doing the bull work so they developed a system of virtual slavery apparently by breeding a generation of what we would now call illegitimate children who they could then justify themselves in exploiting.

ATRAHASIS EPIC is a most ancient text written on clay tablets some 4,000 years ago. The text is broken up and somewhat difficult to decipher but we can still evoke its meaning: Here are some excerpts:


When the gods instead of man Did the work, bore the loads, The gods' load was too great, The work too hard, the trouble too much,
The great Anunnaki made the Igigi Carry the workload sevenfold. Anu their father was king, Their counselor warrior Ellil, Their Chamberlain was Ninurta,
Their canal-controller Ennugi. They took the box of lots Cast the lots; the gods made the division. Anu went up to the sky, And Ellil took the earth for his people.
The bolt which bars the sea Was assigned to far-sighted Enki. When Anu had gone up to the sky, And the gods of the Apsu had gone below,
The Annunaki of the sky Made the Igigi bear the workload. The gods had to dig out canals, Had to clear channels, the lifelines of the land.
The gods dug out the Tigris river And then dug out the Euphrates.

************************************************** ***
There is... Belet-ili the womb goddess is present- Let her create a mortal man So that he may bear the yoke... So that he may bear the yoke, the work of Ellil,
Let man bear the load of the gods!
...
Belet-ili the womb goddess is present, Let the womb goddess create offspring, And let them bear the load of the gods!


The gods were the men and women who survived the flood, Atrahasis himself being Noah. Also "create" means bear children and "determine destiny" means assign them their fate or vocation, that is, who is to be a sage and who a field worker and so on."

Mortal man" means those doing menial work serving the upper class gods.

It is one thing to work so as to produce food for the intellectual elite it is another thing to worship them as God when bringing their portion in to them.

A man in St James, while washing my car recently, complained that he does all the work and gets only $15 per car while the bossman is collecting $25 for no work only because he is providing the facilities.

Fancy this man having to worship the bossman as a god on top of that when he brings in the $25 to him.

That to me seems to be the essence of the culture of human worship that Hinduism is propogating when they worship the likes of Sai Baba and other 'avatars'.

Such practices constitute an emasculation of men, psychological homosexuality and subduing of the man who God says ought not to be dominated because he is the representative of God's preeminence on earth.

The worship of man is the spiritual form of homosexuality.




Jesus said it best when he said to his disciples that when they serve anyone they serve him, Jesus.

*** Meaning?

Jesus never said anywhere that we should "serve anyone" as though to imply that we should worship men as God.




Some are born as man, and progress to achieving full divine status over time. Others are born as Poorna Avataras in the fullness of God, and may undergo no change.

*** At last you have stated clearly that avatars are human beings.




Just to juggle your mind a little, may I ask you to think about the concept of reincarnation, and see if there isn't the possibility of you marrying your own son or daughter from a past life, now born in another race and gender.

*** Why does it seem needful for you to construe the Hindu concept of reincarnation to involve a man marrying his son or daughter? Is this an attempt to find some means to justify those kinds of practices that some people indulge in?

More than that why are you involving me by saying "you marrying your own son" etc. You sound here like a saffron colored pholourie vendor who lured me and tried to molest me when I was about seven years old.




It may be an opportunity for giving you the chance to undo a wrong you did to him/her in a previous life, as you continue heading home in each lifetime towards salvation.

*** Why does one need to marry someone to "undo a wrong"? As a matter of fact there are some wrongs that cannot be "undone" and God purposely designed it so so that man might not be able by his own efforts to attain salvation.

Our only salvation is through the means and sacrifice God himself has provided.




Roger

[happyangel]

Please keep the subject in tow, thank you....

GOD(s) = Extra-Terrestrials ?

In the past, our ancestors didn't have today's knowledge and understanding of the univers and of life...
Is it possible that in the past what ALL religions and mythologies describe as God(s) would be a misunderstanding of relations between mankind and people coming from the sky, (E.T. = Elohim, Allah, Anounaki, Vishnu, Zeus, God, etc.) ??
:alien:
I read the books of Rael and for me, it explains so much of what seems to be mysteries and weak explainations... have a look !
Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers :study:

[brag]

Sorrry, happyangel, this is my last response to Roger on this thread, and I will get back on subject as fast as possible.

Science is now exploring the Hindu scriptures about the world as an illusion, maya, a figment of the imagination, not real, a waking dream, etc. I don't quite understand it all, but sometimes it does seem that way to me, and I know from different experiences including out-of-body experiences that there might be more to what we understand about who we are. There is a thread about maya on this board.

Roger, you are following a totally different religious tradition from me, and am glad for you, no problem with that. You need to remain faithful to that tradition as it is what you seem to know best.

It will be wise, however, for you to continue exploring your own tradition and know who you are before wishing to help others and subtly trying to enlighten or persuade them about who they are or should be, the truths about their religion, and the correct path to follow, etc.

Most people know the path that suits them best and they follow them to the extent that they bring them love, peace and prosperity, etc.

It does sound like you are on a serious mission, gathering information for purposes of perpetuating violence or religious proselytization on an unsuspecting population of other religious persuasion. In that case, I am not willing to help you with that or clarify issues for you that will get you closer to your mission. You may want to look for someone else to do so.

Thanks for allowing me a chance, though, to understand your deeper concerns, and getting a better grasp of your broader interest in religion and incest, homosexuality, child molestation, etc.

A good place to start your inquiry will be with some of the Catholic Church. Follow you conscience is my best recommendation, my dear friend.

[roger]

Please keep the subject in tow, thank you....

*** Ok, the above is my take on the issue of God/s being extraterrestrial so I'll leave it here for now.


Roger

[sylvestter]

You might find "Erich von Daniken's "Chariots of the Gods?" interesting.
Here's a link to his HP:
http://www.evdaniken.com/very interesting indeed

[happyangel]

If you have any questions or would like to have an open and respectful discussion about this topic
GOD(s) = EXTRA-TERRESTRIALS please feel free to respond.

[Sirius]

It is possible happyangel. I for one believe our ancient civilizations may have had some sort of assistance. It would be entirely possible and in fact simply human to ascribe that which we could not at the time comprehend to divinity.

[happyangel]

Sirius, they indead received help from the Elohim (Hebrew word which means 'Those Who Come from the Sky). They have helped all civilizations since the begining of creation on earth through the different Prophets they sent like Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, and many others. Rael is their last Prophet to whom they gave a message for all of mankind. I red this message which is extremely interresting and if you want you can download it free from http://www.rael.org. Once you've red the book 'Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers' I would be very happy to know what you think.

[Sirius]

To be very honest with you I am no fan of the Raelian movement. I have downloaded the eBook and will have no problem looking through relevant bits as discussion arises but I must let you know I don't think I will be reading it cover to cover - at least not at this point in time.

Do not however mistake this for an unwillingness to discuss your point of view. I am of the belief that ancient civilizations may have had extra terrestrial assistance. Can you elaborate your view of why these creatures may have sent these prophets to Earth? I must admit that it is a mystery to me as to why - if this is the case - extra terrestrials may have come to Earth, meddled in the civilizations of the time and then disappeared.

[happyangel]

To be very honest with you I am no fan of the Raelian movement. I have downloaded the eBook and will have no problem looking through relevant bits as discussion arises but I must let you know I don't think I will be reading it cover to cover - at least not at this point in time.

Do not however mistake this for an unwillingness to discuss your point of view. I am of the belief that ancient civilizations may have had extra terrestrial assistance. Can you elaborate your view of why these creatures may have sent these prophets to Earth? I must admit that it is a mystery to me as to why - if this is the case - extra terrestrials may have come to Earth, meddled in the civilizations of the time and then disappeared.

Dear Sirus, if I may, I suggest you read it from cover to cover. It will surely help in answering some if not all of your questions that you might have or which may arise during your reading. Once you have red it in its entirety, I would be more than happy to discuss this subject further. What do you think?

[brag]

In this complex and multi dimensional phenomena of time and space, who can really say from which universe people dwell amongst us, when all it takes is a mastery of time and space to step from one world into another? And how often do we believe them when they describe to us these experiences? They may even have mastery over forms and appear in whatever form they wish, like in Hindu mythologies.

[happyangel]

In this complex and multi dimensional phenomena of time and space, who can really say from which universe people dwell amongst us, when all it takes is a mastery of time and space to step from one world into another? And how often do we believe them when they describe to us these experiences? They may even have mastery over forms and appear in whatever form they wish, like in Hindu mythologies.

Hello Brag, you might be wright on this, I really don't know. What I do know however is what I read in the book 'Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers' which can be found and download free at : http://www.rael.org.

Hindu mythologies are, in my opinion, things that could not be explained because science was not advanced enough to help explain them. Now, every day, science continuously explains and proves what was once thought to be unexplainable. What used to be called miracles or mysteries are no longer thanks to science. Many centuries ago, no one could have even thought of trying to revive someone who had just had a hart attack - nowadays CPR is used in everyday life. It is no longer considered a miracle because there is science to explain it.
Have you read the book? What do you think about it?

[brag]

No, I have not read the book, but I watched several programs on TV and read a few articles on the subject a few years ago. I can't promise I will read the book, as I am now more orientated to seeing and experiencing through inner vision.

[happyangel]

GOD(s) = Extra-Terrestrials ?

In the past, our ancestors didn't have today's knowledge and understanding of the univers and of life...
Is it possible that in the past what ALL religions and mythologies describe as God(s) would be a misunderstanding of relations between mankind and people coming from the sky, (E.T. = Elohim, Allah, Anounaki, Vishnu, Zeus, God, etc.) ??
:alien:
I read the books of Rael and for me, it explains so much of what seems to be mysteries and weak explainations... have a look !
Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers :study:

It's been a while since I have posted here...was just wondering if anyone has read the book yet : Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers ? And would love to know your thoughts about it.

[happyangel]

I haven't posted here in a while and was wondering has anyone red the book : Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers ? What are your thoughts on it?

[happyangel]

Well it's been a while since I have posted something here. I would very much like to know has anyone red the book yet: Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers? What are your thoughts on it ?

[happyangel]

Hi everyone, I haven't been here in a while. Just wonderding, has anyone had a chance to read the book Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers? What are your thoughts on this very interesting subject?

[happyangel]

Hi everyone, I haven't been here in quite a while. I was wondering has anyone had the opportunity to read the book Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers? What are your thoughts on this most interresting subject?

[trinipepper]

I haven't read the book 'Intelligent Design-Message From The Designers' but I will deffinitely make an effort to do so.
This topic has certainly 'CONFUFFLED' my likkle brain,I have to say.
All my teachings on evolution and scientific proof of it seems ro be sorely questioned in this topic.I am a great believer in "seeing is believing' and that does not pertain to the actual physical act but more on scientific grounds.
I suppose I'm just very skeptical...........

[happyangel]

Hello, so does anyone have any comments, thoughts and/or questions on this subject and on the book 'Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers'?

[guyguy]

Isn't GOD an extraterrestrial anyway?

[brag]

Ancient Vedic Prayer.

"Samastha Loka Sukhino Bhavantu." Let all the peoples of all the worlds be happy.

[brag]

Nice job in keping discussion alive, happyangel.