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peanut
10-18-2007, 07:27 AM
This is just some of what is written in the DRAFT CONSTITUTION that will become Law if Manning gets his special majority. I hope the Guardian publishes the draft in its entirety.

DICTATORIAL TENDENCIES MY FOOT! Now tell me Manning is not a Dictator allbeit restricted by the present Constitution!

http://www.guardian.co.tt/news10.html
BY PRIOR BEHARRY

A DOCUMENT purporting to be the secret draft constitution that Prime Minister Patrick Manning allegedly wants to implement if he gets a special majority in Parliament after the next general election is now in circulation.

A copy was sent anonymously to the Guardian yesterday.

The 162-page document begins with a covering page that reads: Draft Constitution of the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago. June 2007.”

The sudden leak of the document came days after Opposition Leader Kamla Persad-Bissessar claimed to have received a copy of the draft constitution from an unknown source, and brandished a document on the platform during a campaign meeting at Debe, last week Wednesday.

She has claimed the draft is what PM Manning will implement if he gets a constitutional majority in the November 5 general election.

She said if implemented, this “secret constitution” would give Manning control over the DPP since he would have to seek the approval of the Attorney General before he proceeds with a criminal case.

Yesterday, Persad-Bissessar said she had sent a copy the document to the Law Association “for their analysis and requisite action.”

WHAT’S INSIDE

The document appears to have many of the clauses as the draft constitution prepared by Sir Ellis Clarke and laid in the Parliament on August 18, last year, and also the Constitution of T&T.

It has the usual arrangements of sections in the front and contains 14 chapters. At the back there are four schedules dealing with the Forms of the Oath (or Affirmation) of Allegiance and of Office, Boundaries of Constituencies, Matters Not Subject to Investigation by the Ombudsman and Local Government Bodies, similar to the current Constitution.

Some clauses in the document are highlighted in bold.

Clause 117 of the document states that the DPP must consult with the Attorney General in relation to criminal proceedings.

Executive President

Clause 42 in the unconfirmed document refers to the creation of the office of an Executive President.

It says the President has to first win his seat in the House of Representatives and becomes Executive President once his party wins the majority of seat, according to Clause 49 (1).

The document also allows for a person who was not elected to the House of Representatives to become an MP. That person, according to the document, would be the person who was nominated as an alternate to stand with the MP who is to become President.

When the candidate wins his seat and takes up office as president the “alternate candidate shall automatically assume the vacant seat in the House of Representatives.”

The Senate

The document proposes to increase the number of senators from the current 31 to 47.

Currently 16 are appointed by the Prime Minister. But Clause 60 gives the President the appointment of 16 senators in his sole discretion and he would also appoint nine more after consultation with groups or organisations in business, labour, the environment, the village council movement, the energy sector and finance.

Six senators would be appointed by the Minority Leader (the Opposition Leader) acting in his sole discretion while 14 would be elected by the local government bodies and two senators are also proposed to be appointed by the Tobago House of Assembly (THA).

The Chief Justice

Clause 133 allows the President to appoint a Chief Justice after consultation with the Minority Leader and the president of the Law Association.

The President, under Clause 133(2) issues a notification of the person nominated as Chief Justice and this shall be subject to negative resolution of Parliament.

This means that once the notification is laid in Parliament, it could only be debated if a member brings a motion on it.

Clause 131, according to the document, gives the Parliament the power “from time to time to prescribe which matters shall not be subject to judicial review.”

vaio
10-18-2007, 07:34 AM
lord help us all.

peanut
10-18-2007, 07:40 AM
The Lord ent have nutten to do with this, but He has given us free will. It's either we accommodate and beat this or remain divided and live with it!

King B
10-18-2007, 07:43 AM
Who currently selects and appoints the Chief Justice?

vaio
10-18-2007, 07:47 AM
The Chief Justice shall be appointed by the President after consultation with the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition

peanut
10-18-2007, 07:47 AM
More importantly KBB, in which Country a Member of Parliament is selected and not elected?

King B
10-18-2007, 07:51 AM
And if the Executive President were both part of the executive and legislature you would say he is too powerful. Right?

peanut
10-18-2007, 07:54 AM
Boy answer meh damn question nah;

In which Country a Member of Parliament is selected and not elected?

cm103
10-18-2007, 07:54 AM
While this document does show the potential for executive abuse it was not unexpected.

skl
10-18-2007, 07:55 AM
nah...this is a next trick by the media to swing the election... :twisted: :mrgreen:

peanut
10-18-2007, 08:00 AM
While this document does show the potential for executive abuse it was not unexpected.

Okay CM, but with Manning there is nothing like potential .. it is either going to be or not to be. I have known the man for over 26 years. I know of which I speak and when I called Manning a dictator, a COP supporting Mod quoted me the rules on libel etc., and a forumite say I am making moronic posts, that is why I name the thread VINDICATED!

skl
10-18-2007, 08:04 AM
The document also allows for a person who was not elected to the House of Representatives to become an MP. That person, according to the document, would be the person who was nominated as an alternate to stand with the MP who is to become President.


More importantly KBB, in which Country a Member of Parliament is selected and not elected?

erm. France. when MPs become Ministers they must vacate thier seats in the French Assembly . They are replaced by alternates who names are usually on the ballot alongside the candidates.

peanut
10-18-2007, 08:09 AM
France. when MPs become Ministers they must vacate thier seats in the French Assembly . They are replaced by alternates who names are usually on the ballot alongside the candidates.


The French Republic is a democracy that is organised as a unitary semi-presidential republic.....T&T is NOT!

skl
10-18-2007, 08:16 AM
France. when MPs become Ministers they must vacate thier seats in the French Assembly . They are replaced by alternates who names are usually on the ballot alongside the candidates.


The French Republic is a democracy that is organised as a unitary semi-presidential republic.....T&T is NOT!

yah Trinidad is a unitary parliamentry republic !!!.........what that has to do with alternates, I dont know.

Im not saying the draft consititution isnt problematic......but the use of alternates is not unheard of.

besides I was just answering your question ,In which Country a Member of Parliament is selected and not elected?

anyways from the draft It looks like "the person who was nominated as an alternate to stand with the MP " will also be on the ballot so the alternate will be known before hand.

King B
10-18-2007, 08:24 AM
It's amazing that in a document of 162 pages this frivilous nonsense is all the could find to buttress their weak claim of a dictatorship. With that being said, I am not in agreement that the DPP should have to consult with the AG on any matter. I still dont see how this document paves the way for a dictatorship.

Judicial review is clearly abused in T&T; most simply use it to delay and frustrate legal proceedings. (Read: Panday)

peanut
10-18-2007, 08:27 AM
I was just answering your question
In which Country a Member of Parliament is selected and not elected?

anyways from the draft It looks like "the person who was nominated as an alternate to stand with the MP " will also be on the ballot so the alternate will be known before hand. Is there an alternate named in Sando East?

This is how it is done in France ........ The National Assembly consists of 577 members known as deputies, each elected by a single-member constituency. Deputies are elected in each constituency through a two-rounds system. It is presided over by a president, normally from the largest party represented, assisted by vice-presidents from across the represented political spectrum.

Mr Majik
10-18-2007, 10:03 AM
Is there an alternate named in Sando East?There's no need to name alternates as this is not the system at present.

This is how it is done in France ........ The National Assembly consists of 577 members known as deputies, each elected by a single-member constituency. Deputies are elected in each constituency through a two-rounds system. It is presided over by a president, normally from the largest party represented, assisted by vice-presidents from across the represented political spectrum.Actually, France's power is divided between the president and the prime minister. Each has his/her responsibilities in governing.

Can someone tell this ignorant soul how Manning's model differs from the US executive president.
Seems to me that guy doesn't really care what the Constitution says. Funny how just a few short years ago Americans gave him carte blanche to sidestep the Constitution, and now they want to call him on it but he ain't trying to care what they have to say.

skl
10-18-2007, 10:04 AM
I was just answering your question
In which Country a Member of Parliament is selected and not elected?

anyways from the draft It looks like "the person who was nominated as an alternate to stand with the MP " will also be on the ballot so the alternate will be known before hand. Is there an alternate named in Sando East?

well when the new constitution comes into effect there will have to be new elections under the new system. under that new system each MP (or at least each leader) will have to have alternates standing with them

This is how it is done in France ........ The National Assembly consists of 577 members known as deputies, each elected by a single-member constituency. Deputies are elected in each constituency through a two-rounds system. It is presided over by a president, normally from the largest party represented, assisted by vice-presidents from across the represented political spectrum.

and ? this has what to do with alternates ?

peanut
10-18-2007, 10:09 AM
Alternates will have to be on the ballot! NO? According to the Draft Constitution if enacted as Law, Manning will hand pick a MP without that person going through the electoral process.

skl
10-18-2007, 10:16 AM
Alternates will have to be on the ballot! NO? According to the Draft Constitution if enacted as Law, Manning will hand pick a MP without that person going through the electoral process.

peanut, you're letting youre anger at Manning cloud your reading ability. read the bolded parts.


That person, according to the document, would be the person who was nominated as an alternate to stand with the MP who is to become President.

When the candidate wins his seat and takes up office as president the “alternate candidate shall automatically assume the vacant seat in the House of Representatives.”
http://guardian.co.tt/news10.html

what does "alternate candidate" and "person nominated to stand with the MP" mean to you ?

peanut
10-18-2007, 10:32 AM
Don't pull a KBB here on me now .. don't be selective, read the whole passage

It says the President has to first win his seat in the House of Representatives and becomes Executive President once his party wins the majority of seat, according to Clause 49 (1).

The document also allows for a person who was not elected to the House of Representatives to become an MP. That person, according to the document, would be the person who was nominated as an alternate to stand with the MP who is to become President.

Nominated by whom?????? and is there such a person nominated and included in the ballot to stand in as an alternate IF Manning becomes Executive President.

skl
10-18-2007, 10:50 AM
peanut

the QUOTED parts of the new constitution do not support the newspaper's contention for an unelected person.

Dispatcher
10-18-2007, 11:18 AM
Remember its only a draft at this point in time. As long as Manning does not get a special majority, and the independant senators are not controlled, this document would have to sanitised before it gets to being enacted.

Sirius
10-18-2007, 12:40 PM
Am I the only one who doesn't see an issue with the fallback nominee MP? I think it is a great thing that the President cannot be an MP. The candidate would go to the polls with the population voting in the knowledge that if said person is appointed President, this other individual would become their MP. What's the issue there?

My problem with the constitution is the bit about the AG and DPP.

It is as I expected. This is a constitution with a lot left to be desired but it is in no way a dictator's constitution.

peanut
10-18-2007, 12:48 PM
ahm, yuh miss the part with the CJ.

Sirius
10-18-2007, 12:54 PM
The Chief Justice

Clause 133 allows the President to appoint a Chief Justice after consultation with the Minority Leader and the president of the Law Association.

The President, under Clause 133(2) issues a notification of the person nominated as Chief Justice and this shall be subject to negative resolution of Parliament.

This means that once the notification is laid in Parliament, it could only be debated if a member brings a motion on it.

Carry on.

peanut
10-18-2007, 01:15 PM
The Chief Justice

I sought calrification on this before posting a response.

Clause 133 allows the President to appoint a Chief Justice after consultation with the Minority Leader and the president of the Law Association.

After a meeting for deliberation, discussion, or decision with the minority leader and the President of the law association, the President [Mr. Manning] will appoint the CJ

The President, under Clause 133(2) issues a notification of the person nominated as Chief Justice and this shall be subject to negative resolution of Parliament. This means that once the notification is laid in Parliament, it could only be debated if a member brings a motion on it. Simply put it is not up for debate unless a member brings a motion on it

Who are the most likely to bring a motion on it, not an oppositon member? and what prayer is there to be said that will cause an opposition MP's motion to be upheld?

carry on!

sam48
10-18-2007, 01:24 PM
so bear with me here folks,
If Mannings draft is implemented will there be two names on the ballot for each contesting party in every constituency or is it only inthe constituency of the party leader. Who will nominate the person and what is wrong with having a bye election instead of all this confusion. Can it be to ensure that the ruling party keeps the seat.
The AG will be a creature of the president , apolitical apointee, why should he have control over the DPP? that is not to face the reality that in today,s Tnt there is the strong perception that it is already so.
With the new president appointing the CJ and the AG controlling the DPP, thank God for the PC if it is not removed as the final arbiter. We will be in deep S+#%Tall them cases Manning lose will be overturned, Dictatorship here we come.

Dispatcher
10-18-2007, 02:33 PM
We will be in deep S+#%Tall them cases Manning lose will be overturned, Dictatorship here we come.

And CoP winning all the seats? We don't have to worry man.

Scorpio
10-18-2007, 03:31 PM
Did Manning deny the authencitity of this leaked document ?

King B
10-18-2007, 03:44 PM
Peanut, how is the CJ appointed now?

cm103
10-18-2007, 06:32 PM
Didn't the UNC support the Executive Presidency idea?