To COP Supporters!

[peanut]

I am sharing this with all of you especially the COP supporters and it is not because I've been trying to drive this point home. It is the reality of the Political Climate in T&T. Yes we are calling for change, yes we need change, but to bring about change big men have to be able to set aside their petty differences and see the greater good for which change is being sought, and to effect change we go to begin on the foundation that has been laid for change.

Read on to what the intelligent people in the COP are saying, but the supporters are not listening to. Always remember a picture frame is worthless without the picture.

Dear Friends,

The COP, to our disappointment, is not countering the call for accommodation by the UNCA and this is a bad tactic on their part. Saying that Panday is the problem means that we have the choice of taking Panday and have the PNM, or kick out Panday with the PNM. It would seem also that the COP is saying "COP or UNCA" and not "COP and UNCA." And so, where is the logic in all this? The COP has lots of catching up to do and so little time to do it! Therefore, the time is close at hand when we must declare a favorite side to us and go forward. Hence, we are left with only one choice and that is to let these 2 conjunctions, “and� and “or,� guide our recommendation one way or the other.

While Panday’ and Warner’s call for accommodation may be viewed only as lip service by the officials of the COP, it would seem that they have NOT convinced many of us that they badly wanted to see the back of the PNM. Realistically, they (COP) have not answered the call for the 1 on 1 fight with the PNM which we had passionately advocated in the press and elsewhere. It is true that we have friends and family in both opposition teams, but now, we must communicate with our T&T relationships to pick the side that has the more realistic chance at stopping PNM getting that two-thirds majority.

Despite our close affinity with the COP we may have to divorce them for their own good and the good of the country as a whole. Prepare yourselves to communicate with folks back home to advise NOT TO SPLIT THEIR VOTES and to pick the side that seems best poised to stop the PNM's two-third majority.

Don't forget what happened when we blindly supported the ONR in 1981; plenty votes but "not a damn seat for dem." It was the same Panday with an alliance and a Chambers with his PNM who thrashed us coming and going. Ask Surujrattan Rambachan, poor fellow, he nearly lost his real estate because he was so sure that the ONR was going to win. History has a funny way of repeating itself, so DO NOT make the same mistake twice Roop, Gary, Ramdeen, Jang, Jay, and others because the COP has yet to convince us otherwise.

Dr. Ashford Maharaj.

CaribbeanTalk@yahoogroups.com

[JPersad]

Dear UNC,

Have Panday take a back seat.Then there will be accommodation .

Regards
COP supporter

[peanut]

So in other words the only way the COP will safeguard our Democracy of T&T and bring about a better way of life and security for the people of T&T is if Panday goes. :shock: :shock:

[JPersad]

So in other words the only way the COP will safeguard our Democracy of T&T and bring about a better way of life and security for the people of T&T is if Panday goes. :shock: :shock:
Dear UNC ,
God forbade , should the UNC win the election , the very next day Panday , RLM , Jack and Kamla going to fight for PM ship .
Is that the UNC idea of democracy ?
Think about it .

Regards
COP supporter

[peanut]

So the position of Prime Ministership is the reason Dookeran refused to let the COP not have an accommodation with the UNC? Damn and all yuh want to talk about Panday. The more all yuh open all yuh mouth I feel more justified in siding with the Devil I know than the so called "angel" I don't

[Scorpio]

Sigh..... :|

[JPersad]

So the position of Prime Ministership is the reason Dookeran refused to let the COP not have an accommodation with the UNC? Damn and all yuh want to talk about Panday. The more all yuh open all yuh mouth I feel more justified in siding with the Devil I know than the so called "angel" I don't
You said it yourself ....

[cm103]

So the position of Prime Ministership is the reason Dookeran refused to let the COP not have an accommodation with the UNC? Damn and all yuh want to talk about Panday. The more all yuh open all yuh mouth I feel more justified in siding with the Devil I know than the so called "angel" I don't

As bad as you see the PNM right now, some of us see the UNC under Panday in a similar light. If Panday has any foresight he would try and resolve the differences in his party instead of alienating those that do not agree with his will. Panday told Dookeran to go and now he wand Jack want him back because they realize that they can't win without him?

If that is the case and the majority of COP supporters polled are fed up of Manning and Panday, what makes you think that they will support Dookeran if he goes back to the UNC? If anything he would probably lose the respect of his voter base and end up like all the other dead parties that formed the 'alliance'.

[peanut]

Am I to conclude that the light in which you see Manning is brighter than the light in which you see Panday? Keep on talking, I am being more and more educated in the minds of COP supporters :lol:

Now if the people who participated in the polls feel that way, why were they in favor of either unity or an accommodation?

IMHO, the people are in favor because both the COP and the UNC-A have the same agenda which is to effect the necessary change in Gov't that will ensure a better and more secure way of life in T&T, and they are saying WE DON"T CARE how you achieve that for us, just do what you have to do to achieve it.

However, it is apparant that Dookeran is no different to Manning in that he is not listening to what the people are saying. Dookeran is not doing doing what the masses as saying, he is doing what he wants to do. Is this a sign of things to come if the COP wins the election?

[Sirius]

Peanut. Look at how Panday is running his party and look at how Manning is running his party. UNC and PNM are basically the same with that in mind. Both have dictator tendencies.

Let Panday sit out the leadership and I will start saying COP must align with UNCA or they don't get my vote. If the UNC executive cannot see that and retain Panday as head honcho, then COP had better remain on their own if they want my vote!

I am not willing to trade one potential dictator for another!

[Maccogirl]

What makes you feel that Panday supporters if he steps aside will vote for COP, you all act as if these people don't exist all you hear about is COP supporters will not vote for COP if COP joins UNCA, have you ever thought for one moment their are persons out there that will not support some of the CP candidates or persons in the background of the COP?

Have you ever thought that there are some out there that would not support Dookeran also or is it that you feel Dookeran is a gift to this nation and everyone will just run to support him once he is in charge, do you not feel that there are UNCA supporters that will only support Kamla once she is in the UNC and no other party.

It's not as if the COP has a slate that non of us can question their intent or their baggage, up to this morning the COP are changing candidates have any of you asked why is that or what is going on if it was PNM/UNCA am sure you would of been hitting this site with a ton of questions, the COP candidate for Tobago East is another one any COP supporters asked anything about that on here no not one, Sadiq Baksh is missing in action has anyone questioned that bet if Jack was missing it would of been the talk of the town.

Candidates for the COP going up against heavyweight in the West I have talked about their chances not one of you have said one thing in their defense to convince me they will win their seats all I hearing is Bas this and Jack that have Ramesh do this and that. Tobago lost, the West lost, POS lost so where is the COP going, Dooks seat shaky, Ramlogan seat shaky, Assam lost.

This mighty force that the COP is are they eating away in the PNM stronghold if so where is it I keep asking over and over not one of you can answer that, only nonsense about the undecided the middle class and young people as if some voice from heaven telling the COP that this is theirs. Have any of you ever seen the PNM at work on election day?? They bring out their sick, their cripple, their blind the PNM works this thing better than anyone else has the COP the political machinery in place to do this??

Lets face it now it take a whole lot more to win 22 seats in this election other than a squeaky clean image, Dookeran saying thousands gathered when you look its 300 max, lord what in the world will it take for some of you to open your eyes, again I have to ask if the COP winning it all show me where please I will be very happy to change my stance on how I see things :roll:

[peanut]

Sirius, I understand what you are saying and I felt the same way about it.

Having said that, I took a broad view of this entire fiasco and this is what I saw;

It is undisputable Panday, a veteran in the political arena knows how to hold his base of support and he has enough sway to pull back the detractors [we are seeing it happen even as we speak]. We can all agree that holding your base support is crucial in any election and it is even more crucial in this one.

Dookeran has the ability to pull in the fence sitters and some of the undecideds which is also crucial in any election.

Combine the ability of Dookeran and the experience of Panday and it is a winning combination. The will of the people is going to be accomplished, and the objective of both Parties will be achieved. The PNM will be removed.

Now the question as to who will become Prime Minister can be easily settled by secret ballot from all the elected MPs. In that way anyone, not necessarily Dookeran, Jack, Panday or Kamla will lead the PM's into Gov't.

[Sirius]

I know the UNC better than that, peanut. If there are more UNC than COP in the house, and we can be guaranteed Panday will win his seat, say hello to PM Panday. They will not elect anyone else unless Panday point blank sits out the leadership issue.

Far as I am concerned, if Panday doesn't step aside, I know COP cannot win on its own but I will still give them my vote. Why? A showing of force will ensure they stick around for 2012 when they CAN win. You can't tell me the COP got as big a following as it did in one year and not stand a chance of winning 5 years from now. I am not willing to send the message that I will keep tolerating the likes of Manning or Panday.

[King B]

Sirius, on an episode of the Apprentice Donald Trump once said:

"Show me any organisation governed by consensus and I will show you a loser, at the end of the day someone must lead."

Why do Trinibagonians seem to have such a hard time with that concept? The problem with the UNC is not Panday is a dictator, it is that there are no rules for him or anyone else to follow. You call Manning a dictator. Why? Has he broken a law or gone against the Constitution of T&T or the PNM? Don't we have checks and balances that have protected our democracy since independence? The PNM once had all 36 seats. Did we become a dictatorship? No! The NAR once had 33 seats. Did we become a dictatorship? No! We vote educated people into power to make decisions that we are not capable or informed enough to make ourselves but then cry 'dictator' if they make a decision that we do not agree with even though it may be in our best interest. Manning should take the opinion of uninformed Chatham farmers, spurred on by individuals who all have eventually revealed themselves as politically motivated, over the opinions and data provided by internationally recognised experts? Madness!

PNM party groups must also be mad if they think they should have the ultimate power in deciding who represents the party at both the constituency and national level. Imagine a political leader ending up with candidates he had no input in selecting and then being forced to make them gov't ministers? That is madness and a sure recipe for failure. That is why BWIA was a failure. That is why our public sector is a failure; because the people at the top do not have the power to lead. The workers and the unions have all the power. That system has failed us from the beginning and will continue to do so. Put capable people in charge and give them the power to lead.

Dookeran, though I believe him to be a man of integrity, is soft and no leader at all. Even the staunches COP supporter could admit that. Which means that he is being lead by others instead of the other way around. That may seem like a democracy to you but to any trained manager that is a sure sign of failure.

[skl]

PNM party groups must also be mad if they think they should have the ultimate power in deciding who represents the party at both the constituency and national level. Imagine a political leader ending up with candidates he had no input in selecting and then being forced to make them gov't ministers? That is madness and a sure recipe for failure. .

, the ruling BLP in Barbados selects candidates by means of party primaries (ie members vote for who they want to be the candidate) I know of several occassions before the last election where PM Owen Arthur's preferred nominee lost and he was forced to accept the members choice of candidate.

Now he didnt make them Minsters, instead he made his losing nominees Senators and then appointed them Ministers, BUT the people did getthe candidate they wanted and those candidates went to win thier seats.

[slayerdave]

I know the UNC better than that, peanut. If there are more UNC than COP in the house, and we can be guaranteed Panday will win his seat, say hello to PM Panday. They will not elect anyone else unless Panday point blank sits out the leadership issue.

Far as I am concerned, if Panday doesn't step aside, I know COP cannot win on its own but I will still give them my vote. Why? A showing of force will ensure they stick around for 2012 when they CAN win. You can't tell me the COP got as big a following as it did in one year and not stand a chance of winning 5 years from now. I am not willing to send the message that I will keep tolerating the likes of Manning or Panday.

2012 :shock: :shock: ........
Look at NAR which got over a hundred thousand votes in 1991 and was only able to hold on to the two DAC seat in Tobago. If the COP is not represented in parliament over the next 5years its dead in the water......

[skl]

2012 :shock: :shock: ........
Look at NAR which got over a hundred thousand votes in 1991 and was only able to hold on to the two DAC seat in Tobago. If the COP is not represented in parliament over the next 5years its dead in the water......\

the UNC was able to attract the bulk of those NAR voters in 1995, thanks to

RLM's reorganization of the UNC

Panday softening his approach and trying to appeal to NAR supporters

Dookeran appearing on the UNC platform and endorsing the UNC.

the UNC putting former NARites like Ganga, Kamla, Assam and former PNMites like Ralph Maraj and Hector Mclean as candidates


you think that going to repeat in the next 5 years ?

[King B]

PNM party groups must also be mad if they think they should have the ultimate power in deciding who represents the party at both the constituency and national level. Imagine a political leader ending up with candidates he had no input in selecting and then being forced to make them gov't ministers? That is madness and a sure recipe for failure. .

, the ruling BLP in Barbados selects candidates by means of party primaries (ie members vote for who they want to be the candidate) I know of several occassions before the last election where PM Owen Arthur's preferred nominee lost and he was forced to accept the members choice of candidate.

Now he didnt make them Minsters, instead he made his losing nominees Senators and then appointed them Ministers, BUT the people did getthe candidate they wanted and those candidates went to win thier seats.

What does that have to do with Trinidad & Tobago? Manning only has veto power.

[skl]

[quote="King B":2fd6b]

PNM party groups must also be mad if they think they should have the ultimate power in deciding who represents the party at both the constituency and national level. Imagine a political leader ending up with candidates he had no input in selecting and then being forced to make them gov't ministers? That is madness and a sure recipe for failure. .

, the ruling BLP in Barbados selects candidates by means of party primaries (ie members vote for who they want to be the candidate) I know of several occassions before the last election where PM Owen Arthur's preferred nominee lost and he was forced to accept the members choice of candidate.

Now he didnt make them Minsters, instead he made his losing nominees Senators and then appointed them Ministers, BUT the people did getthe candidate they wanted and those candidates went to win thier seats.

What does that have to do with Trinidad & Tobago? Manning only has veto power.[/quote:2fd6b]

c'mon youre not dense.

you stated a proposition..that it was madness for a leader to have candidates he had no input in selecting and I gave you an example where it worked..... understand ?

[Parsifal]

Sirius, on an episode of the Apprentice Donald Trump once said:

"Show me any organisation governed by consensus and I will show you a loser, at the end of the day someone must lead."

Why do Trinibagonians seem to have such a hard time with that concept? The problem with the UNC is not Panday is a dictator, it is that there are no rules for him or anyone else to follow. You call Manning a dictator. Why? Has he broken a law or gone against the Constitution of T&T or the PNM? Don't we have checks and balances that have protected our democracy since independence? The PNM once had all 36 seats. Did we become a dictatorship? No! The NAR once had 33 seats. Did we become a dictatorship? No! We vote educated people into power to make decisions that we are not capable or informed enough to make ourselves but then cry 'dictator' if they make a decision that we do not agree with even though it may be in our best interest. Manning should take the opinion of uninformed Chatham farmers, spurred on by individuals who all have eventually revealed themselves as politically motivated, over the opinions and data provided by internationally recognised experts? Madness!

PNM party groups must also be mad if they think they should have the ultimate power in deciding who represents the party at both the constituency and national level. Imagine a political leader ending up with candidates he had no input in selecting and then being forced to make them gov't ministers? That is madness and a sure recipe for failure. That is why BWIA was a failure. That is why our public sector is a failure; because the people at the top do not have the power to lead. The workers and the unions have all the power. That system has failed us from the beginning and will continue to do so. Put capable people in charge and give them the power to lead.

Dookeran, though I believe him to be a man of integrity, is soft and no leader at all. Even the staunches COP supporter could admit that. Which means that he is being lead by others instead of the other way around. That may seem like a democracy to you but to any trained manager that is a sure sign of failure.


KBB as usual we are on the same page.

Remember when all of these so called "educated" Trinidadians said that we should be more like Singapore?

Do you think that they could have handled a man like Lee Kwan Yew in order to achieve those objectives?

And his leadership was described as a "benign dictatorship". Go tell that to the ethnic Malays who were once the majority ethnic group but who were completely excluded from the governance of the country in favour of the ethnic Chinese immigrants.

Trinis don't even like to pay to park at Maracas and would prefer to stink up Caura river instead of taking their garbage home when they leave.

We have it too good here in my opinion.

[slayerdave]

2012 :shock: :shock: ........
Look at NAR which got over a hundred thousand votes in 1991 and was only able to hold on to the two DAC seat in Tobago. If the COP is not represented in parliament over the next 5years its dead in the water......\

the UNC was able to attract the bulk of those NAR voters in 1995, thanks to

RLM's reorganization of the UNC

Panday softening his approach and trying to appeal to NAR supporters

Dookeran appearing on the UNC platform and endorsing the UNC.

you think that going to repeat in the next 5 years ?

The NAR still posted 19 or so candidates and was only able to pull in some 24 thousand votes....
Dookeran came on one platform a few days before the election which didn't have that great of an impact, he lost his deposit in 1991 what kinda support did he have...
and then he knew he didn't have a snowball chance in hell in defeating the UNC and/or the PNM.....

[King B]

Now he didnt make them Minsters, instead he made his losing nominees Senators and then appointed them Ministers

That looked like 'it worked' to you? :roll:

[skl]

Now he didnt make them Minsters, instead he made his losing nominees Senators and then appointed them Ministers

That looked like 'it worked' to you? :roll:


the people get the MPs they wanted and the PM get the Minsters he wanted .....everybody happy....yeah I'd say that "it worked". what, you call it a failure ?

[skl]

2012 :shock: :shock: ........
Look at NAR which got over a hundred thousand votes in 1991 and was only able to hold on to the two DAC seat in Tobago. If the COP is not represented in parliament over the next 5years its dead in the water......\

the UNC was able to attract the bulk of those NAR voters in 1995, thanks to

RLM's reorganization of the UNC
Panday softening his approach and trying to appeal to NAR supporters
Dookeran appearing on the UNC platform and endorsing the UNC.
you think that going to repeat in the next 5 years ?

The NAR still posted 19 or so candidates and was only able to pull in some 24 thousand votes....
Dookeran came on one platform a few days before the election which didn't have that great of an impact, he lost his deposit in 1991 what kinda support did he have...
and then he knew he didn't have a snowball chance in hell in defeating the UNC and/or the PNM.....

I added this to the OP

the UNC putting former NARites like Ganga, Kamla, Assam and former PNMites like Ralph Maraj and Hector Mclean as candidates.


the UNC did certain things that attracted the NARites like putting up former Narites as candidates and getting Dooks endorsement (which did have an impact by giving the UNC extra votes where they counted in the marginals ) (btw. Dooks didnt lose his deposit) as well as not bashing the NAR.


you think the UNC going to repeat that with the COP ?

[peanut]

you think that going to repeat in the next 5 years ?

you think the UNC going to repeat that with the COP ?

We will never know the answers to those questions now ... will we?

[King B]

KBB as usual we are on the same page.

Remember when all of these so called "educated" Trinidadians said that we should be more like Singapore?

Do you think that they could have handled a man like Lee Kwan Yew in order to achieve those objectives?

And his leadership was described as a "benign dictatorship". Go tell that to the ethnic Malays who were once the majority ethnic group but who were completely excluded from the governance of the country in favour of the ethnic Chinese immigrants.

Trinis don't even like to pay to park at Maracas and would prefer to stink up Caura river instead of taking their garbage home when they leave.

We have it too good here in my opinion.

The word 'dictator' is so overused in T&T that I started to wonder if I knew what it meant. We have become so hedonistic and anti-rules that anyone who inconveniences us at all is all of a sudden a dictator. Valley, who has been a non-performer in my opinion is being foisted on the national community for another term and because the PM uses his veto power to say no he is all of a sudden a dictator. He wants to increase taxes on alcohol and cigarettes, which is done all around the world due to their negative effects on society, and he is a dictator. Casino owners have been openly laundering money and actively resisting any type of regularisation and when the PNM wants to shut them down he is a dictator. These same clowns would drop dead if they spent a day in Singapore or some of the other developing countries that made the leap to developed status. Imagine if Manning banned chewing gum in T&T? Or smoking at all? Or made littering a jailable offense? Ha! I can see it now: "OH GOD, he go kill we!!!!!!!!!!!"

This attitude is why we haven't had successive governments since the end of the last oil boom. We are spoiled and want everything without earning it. Anyone who even attempts to buck the status quo and make any sort of relevent change is all of a sudden a 'dictator.' Maybe dictators are exactly what we need.

[skl]

you think that going to repeat in the next 5 years ?

you think the UNC going to repeat that with the COP ?

We will never know the answers to those questions now ... will we?



huh ? you dont know what you think ?

[Somebody007]

ent day say d PNM going to be ruling for the next 30 years....so what is allyuh problem now....

[Sirius]

King B; we disagree on many points but I have to agree with you on the dictator issue. Now I do think Manning is showing dictator tendencies - same with Panday, which is another reason I don't want Panday in charge. However, this does NOT equate to being a dictator.

Dictatorship tendencies are however displayed via some of the things you mentioned. Valley is an under-performer, but when Manning drops him as a candidate when the constituency has made its choice, then he has shown an attitude of my way or the highway, which is a step in a dictator's direction. When he bans casinos, he is showing dictatorship tendencies - it is not his place to tell people how to spend their time. Control it by all means but do not ban it.

But I will be very careful here to make it clear that having dictatorship tendencies does NOT automatically make someone a dictator. It means the person is someone we want to remove before he gets too comfortable with himself, and it means it is not someone we want giving us a constitution with a head of parliament who is also head of state. But people are being ridiculous with the level they are stooping to. Manning is no full blown dictator; and the new constitution still guarantees us elections! That means we still have the capacity to remove him even if he wins this year. People, that is not a dictatorship.

Here's some more food for thought: Do you honestly believe that Manning would introduce so many new faces if he is planning a dictatorship? He would be more likely supported in passing a dictator's constitution with his old hats who have stood by him for years than he would be trying to get approval from new faces who do not hold blind loyalty.

Think for a bit people. You are falling for scare tactics. Remember that the one truth about politics is that democracy or dictatorship, people get the government they deserve. You have three choices each with their pros and cons. It's time to abandon tribal voting and sheep mentalities if you think you deserve better governance than what we have had to date.

[peanut]

[QUOTE] Here's some more food for thought: Do you honestly believe that Manning would introduce so many new faces if he is planning a dictatorship? He would be more likely supported in passing a dictator's constitution with his old hats who have stood by him for years than he would be trying to get approval from new faces who do not hold blind loyalty.

Sirius,

The people Manning got rid of are the ones who opposed him in one form or another. For the longest while I have been telling you all it was not with the PNM and there was a growing move to have Manning removed. Just recently the Party Financiers were huddling together to find a way in which to remove him. Ken Valley proved me right, except he chose the wrong time to do it.

Manning at present can only show dictatorial qualities, but he isn't falling short to show all he is a control freak. Just wait and see what will happen if [God forbid] the PNM should get a special majority.

That is not a scare tactic .. this is the reality T&T will face beyond the shadow of any doubt.

The new faces he has brought in are "yes men/woman" on whom he thinks he can count for support. Right now Manning do not even trust the General Council and the so called "old boys", and if he can remove them ... he will.

[TheLight]

To COP Supporters!

After what happened in St Augustine today I don’t think corpse have any supporters left

[cm103]

To COP Supporters!

After what happened in St Augustine today I don’t think corpse have any supporters left

After what happen to Bas legal team I don't think he staying free much longer. You think the heart pain story will work again?

[Somebody007]

To COP Supporters!

After what happened in St Augustine today I don’t think corpse have any supporters left

After what happen to Bas legal team I don't think he staying free much longer. You think the heart pain story will work again?



Panday heart go hot him when he realise that he have to back to Golden Grove come May next year.....hehe

[peanut]

Bas eh going no way and don't forget he has one of the masters in Civil Rights Lawyer back in the UNC.

That leaves me to ask this question of COP supporters, which responsible attorney will walk away from his client in the middle of his legal battles because they are on different side of the political divide.

Ah wonder if Gillian Lucky will dump Franklin Khan as a client and he will have to look for a new Attorney?

[Sirius]

Sirius,

The people Manning got rid of are the ones who opposed him in one form or another. For the longest while I have been telling you all it was not with the PNM and there was a growing move to have Manning removed. Just recently the Party Financiers were huddling together to find a way in which to remove him. Ken Valley proved me right, except he chose the wrong time to do it.

Manning at present can only show dictatorial qualities, but he isn't falling short to show all he is a control freak. Just wait and see what will happen if [God forbid] the PNM should get a special majority.

That is not a scare tactic .. this is the reality T&T will face beyond the shadow of any doubt.

The new faces he has brought in are "yes men/woman" on whom he thinks he can count for support. Right now Manning do not even trust the General Council and the so called "old boys", and if he can remove them ... he will.

Why then does he still have the likes of Keith Rowley unopposed? Come now peanut, there have been doomsayers ever since the dawn of time and there will be doomsayers till the very end. Manning is nowhere near the level of true dictators.

[cm103]

Bas eh going no way and don't forget he has one of the masters in Civil Rights Lawyer back in the UNC.

That leaves me to ask this question of COP supporters, which responsible attorney will walk away from his client in the middle of his legal battles because they are on different side of the political divide.

Ah wonder if Gillian Lucky will dump Franklin Khan as a client and he will have to look for a new Attorney?

Well its still a democracy peanut. He is free to take what cases he wants to, apparently Bas was also getting this for free.

Anand left but what happen to the rest of his team? Anand left because he probably saw something he didn't like, and as the man's lawyer he would see a lot more of Bas than we would.

I'm sure Bas go find some UNC supporter who practicing law that go help him out.

[peanut]

Manning nemesis Keith Rowley is favored, being viewed as and is being groomed to be the next political leader of the PNM.

Manning tried a thing by sending files to the AG and DPP in regards to the Landate matter in an attempt to get rid of Keith but he underestimated the support Keith has within the ranks of the PNM including that of the AG and the DPP.

I don't know if you remember this, but the day after Manning said he sent the files to the AG and the DPP he said anyone who is involved in any legal matter will be eliminated [or something to that effect]. That same night he was taken to task by the General Council and was made to eat crow.

Did either the AG or DPP initiate any kind of proceedings against Rowley?

The PNM will not get rid of Rowley regardless to what anyone says, Keith is a Tobago political icon. No Keith means no seat for PNM in Tobago.

[skl]

That leaves me to ask this question of COP supporters, which responsible attorney will walk away from his client in the middle of his legal battles because they are on different side of the political divide.
?

hold your horses on that. Anand and Prakash were hired for the Couva North seat matter, that over and done with.

the retrial for fraud is a next matter and that is what RLM , KPB and Mikela handling. why they werent present I doh know.

[peanut]

I stand corrected.

[JPersad]

I stand corrected.
How many of us will admit it when we are wrong .?
Peanut ,
Much as we may disagree , I really admire what you just did .
Hats off to you !

[King B]

King B; we disagree on many points but I have to agree with you on the dictator issue. Now I do think Manning is showing dictator tendencies - same with Panday, which is another reason I don't want Panday in charge. However, this does NOT equate to being a dictator.

Dictatorship tendencies are however displayed via some of the things you mentioned. Valley is an under-performer, but when Manning drops him as a candidate when the constituency has made its choice, then he has shown an attitude of my way or the highway, which is a step in a dictator's direction. When he bans casinos, he is showing dictatorship tendencies - it is not his place to tell people how to spend their time. Control it by all means but do not ban it.

The Constituency made their choice? A handful of people in the PNM party group in Diego must have the final say in who represents the entire area and who possibly will become a minister? That is the tail waging the dog. The candidates that are eventually confirmed have to be approved by Manning AND the PNM's general council. The decision to not retain Valley was unanimously agreed to by the general council. How much more democratic than that can you get?

Dont get me started on the casino issue. The United States, considered by many to be the paragon of democracy, has an executive president and gambling is only legal in a handful of states. Sport betting is only legal in Nevada. Does that now make the US undemocratic or its President a dictator? Absolutely not. Democracy does not mean the freedom to do whatever you please regardless of how much it damages yourself or others. There are countless studies on the negative effects of gambling on a society. Why should the gov't not feel the need to shut it down? Do you understand how many lives have been destroyed by it? Do you realize how much money laundering is taking place and how difficult it is to regulate? The casino owners know that full well and that is why they are now eager to submit. This is the industry you want to endorse? Just so a handful of people could get their kicks? I am sorry breds, but Trinidad & Tobago would be better off without this social ill.


But I will be very careful here to make it clear that having dictatorship tendencies does NOT automatically make someone a dictator. It means the person is someone we want to remove before he gets too comfortable with himself, This argument is on shaky ground. I am still asking what tenant of our Constitution has Manning violated? Our President is just for show, he serves no useful purpose whatsoever as far as I am concerned. and it means it is not someone we want giving us a constitution with a head of parliament who is also head of state. But people are being ridiculous with the level they are stooping to. Manning is no full blown dictator; and the new constitution still guarantees us elections! That means we still have the capacity to remove him even if he wins this year. People, that is not a dictatorship.

Agreed.

Here's some more food for thought: Do you honestly believe that Manning would introduce so many new faces if he is planning a dictatorship? He would be more likely supported in passing a dictator's constitution with his old hats who have stood by him for years than he would be trying to get approval from new faces who do not hold blind loyalty.

Manning's clean slate has made the COP's new politics banner look like window dressing with all of the old faces they have resurrected.

Think for a bit people. You are falling for scare tactics. Remember that the one truth about politics is that democracy or dictatorship, people get the government they deserve. You have three choices each with their pros and cons. It's time to abandon tribal voting and sheep mentalities if you think you deserve better governance than what we have had to date.

The PNM is the only party with any sort of ligitimacy, earnest unity, and a clear plan for T&T.

[citizen]

Perhaps the many Ministers who bailed out realized that Manning is becoming a dictator after all. A dictator can more likely handle inexperienced newcomers than battle with the old guard. Why else would such senior Ministers leave?

[Sirius]

The Constituency made their choice? A handful of people in the PNM party group in Diego must have the final say in who represents the entire area and who possibly will become a minister? That is the tail waging the dog. The candidates that are eventually confirmed have to be approved by Manning AND the PNM's general council. The decision to not retain Valley was unanimously agreed to by the general council. How much more democratic than that can you get?

My idea of democracy is that where the people make their choice. As the party group for a constituency is as close to that as it gets without making the individual residents have nominations and votes prior to elections to choose their candidates, I will take the party group's decision before the general council and leader at the very top. Truly democratic decisions should be taken as close to the ground level as possible, not as close to the top level as possible.


Dont get me started on the casino issue. The United States, considered by many to be the paragon of democracy, has an executive president and gambling is only legal in a handful of states. Sport betting is only legal in Nevada. Does that now make the US undemocratic or its President a dictator? Absolutely not. Democracy does not mean the freedom to do whatever you please regardless of how much it damages yourself or others. There are countless studies on the negative effects of gambling on a society. Why should the gov't not feel the need to shut it down? Do you understand how many lives have been destroyed by it? Do you realize how much money laundering is taking place and how difficult it is to regulate? The casino owners know that full well and that is why they are now eager to submit. This is the industry you want to endorse? Just so a handful of people could get their kicks? I am sorry breds, but Trinidad & Tobago would be better off without this social ill.


The United States is no longer the democracy it was so bad choice of example. Several European states are much more democratic and go to the level of legalizing drugs! But yet these states are able to control these issues better and so have less problems with addiction and black markets. It is better to allow things and have measures of control rather than outright ban it. Sorry breds but to outright ban it is a sign of dictatorship tendencies. It is not the place of the state to tell people what they can and cannot do so long as it sits within the bounds of a fair and safe society. Control it by giving people the choice with safeguards, don't tell them, "No! You can't gamble!"


This argument is on shaky ground. I am still asking what tenant of our Constitution has Manning violated? Our President is just for show, he serves no useful purpose whatsoever as far as I am concerned.

This is a hard question to answer. The simple answer is it cannot yet be said he has violated our constitution. This view can however change pending the outcome of the CJ matter. Let us leave that matter for another thread. For the purpose of this thread, Manning has not violated any tenant of our constitution. However, I must say he is showing signs of dictatorship tendencies and that is why I do not want him introducing a new constitution where he has final say. I agree the current Presidential post is relatively powerless. However, it still offers separation of the legislative and executive arms. That said, I am all for an Executive President - just not in the form currently being examined. I want an Executive President who can serve no more than two terms and who is voted in by the people by being stated as the party's candidate for Prime Minister on the ballot. An Executive President is too powerful in my view to simply be appointed by the cabinet.


Manning's clean slate has made the COP's new politics banner look like window dressing with all of the old faces they have resurrected.

I disagree with this, but I will give you that the PNM has done a good job in presenting a fresh new slate to the electorate.


The PNM is the only party with any sort of ligitimacy, earnest unity, and a clear plan for T&T.

The PNM has unity...but. While the PNM has a great end idea for Vision 2020...in my view their execution is horrendous. I also do not like how we have so much money coming in and it is not being properly accounted for. With so much money we can't even get decent roads and a proper water supply, yet we see the finishing touches of steel and glass towers going up before these necessities are even addressed. To me that is backwardness.

[King B]

My idea of democracy is that where the people make their choice. As the party group for a constituency is as close to that as it gets without making the individual residents have nominations and votes prior to elections to choose their candidates, I will take the party group's decision before the general council and leader at the very top. Truly democratic decisions should be taken as close to the ground level as possible, not as close to the top level as possible.

How is it democratic for a party of maybe 100 people to have the final say on who represents a constituency of 1000 and eventually a country of 1.3 million? At least Manning and many of the General Council are elected, who voted for the members of the party group?


The United States is no longer the democracy it was so bad choice of example. Several European states are much more democratic and go to the level of legalizing drugs! But yet these states are able to control these issues better and so have less problems with addiction and black markets. It is better to allow things and have measures of control rather than outright ban it. Sorry breds but to outright ban it is a sign of dictatorship tendencies. It is not the place of the state to tell people what they can and cannot do so long as it sits within the bounds of a fair and safe society. Control it by giving people the choice with safeguards, don't tell them, "No! You can't gamble!"

Really the US is now less democratic? Allowing people to use drugs inspite of all the evidence on its negative effects on society guages the level of democracy? So what if people insisted on using aerosols when all evidence indicates that it destroys the ozone layer... should the govt allow it? What if people wanted leaded gas because of the higher octane levels... should they have it? What if people say they not paying taxes even though it would destroy the economy... govt should approve that too? Madness, it is the gov't's duty to do what is best for its people even when they do not like it. Exactly what is best is what is debatable but to just allow people to do whatever they want regardless of consequence is a recipe for anarchy.


I also do not like how we have so much money coming in and it is not being properly accounted for. With so much money we can't even get decent roads and a proper water supply, yet we see the finishing touches of steel and glass towers going up before these necessities are even addressed. To me that is backwardness.

Roads? We do not have enough capable contractors to pave roads in T&T. I have heard the minister clamour for better and more contarctors. Water supply? We have water mains that are close to 100 years old and severly leak water during transmission. How long do you think it will take to replace them all? How inconvenient to everyone do you think it will be to try to dig up every pipe in a 5 year period? Manual labour is the best way for employing unskilled labour. How was the gov't going to employ these people while instituting its free education policy so that they could help themselves up?

This is why Trinbagonians are never happy. We expect miracles from mere mortals and never even try to look at the problem from anothers point of view. Running a country is not as easy as some of you seem to think.

[peanut]

But the Gov't had no problem hiring a set of Chinese to build the sky scrapers and HDC houses to voter pad, how come they getting problems to get workers to work on pipelines so people can get water?

[Sirius]

How is it democratic for a party of maybe 100 people to have the final say on who represents a constituency of 1000 and eventually a country of 1.3 million? At least Manning and many of the General Council are elected, who voted for the members of the party group?

Hold yuh horses dey. The party group for the constituency is closer to the electorate than Manning and the general council. And this being election means it really doesn't matter whether Manning and however many others on the general council were elected previously. The elections are to decide if those very people remain in office or not. You think it's not democratic to have a party group from the constituency decide on the representative, but you think it is MORE democratic to have Manning and the general council who are far removed from the constituency decide? RIght I done talk on that one.


Really the US is now less democratic? Allowing people to use drugs inspite of all the evidence on its negative effects on society guages the level of democracy? So what if people insisted on using aerosols when all evidence indicates that it destroys the ozone layer... should the govt allow it? What if people wanted leaded gas because of the higher octane levels... should they have it? What if people say they not paying taxes even though it would destroy the economy... govt should approve that too? Madness, it is the gov't's duty to do what is best for its people even when they do not like it. Exactly what is best is what is debatable but to just allow people to do whatever they want regardless of consequence is a recipe for anarchy.

Yes KB, as a matter of fact the US is less democratic! They are losing more and more of their rights all the time, which is why the patriot act caused all that uproar! Now hear what eh, when you understand the point I was making about controlling through allowing, then get back to me. Because for you to jump to the conclusion of anarchy means you clearly have not thought through what I was originally saying. Hint: When you don't make something illegal, people don't go underground with it and so it becomes easier to control it at an acceptable level.


Roads? We do not have enough capable contractors to pave roads in T&T. I have heard the minister clamour for better and more contarctors. Water supply? We have water mains that are close to 100 years old and severly leak water during transmission. How long do you think it will take to replace them all? How inconvenient to everyone do you think it will be to try to dig up every pipe in a 5 year period? Manual labour is the best way for employing unskilled labour. How was the gov't going to employ these people while instituting its free education policy so that they could help themselves up?

Well. Maybe if the government stopped awarding the contract to the same jokers screwup after screwup, maybe we would have capable ones. Tolerating lopsided work encourages more lopsided work. We have water mains 100 years old, well you don't think work should have been ongoing so none of them would be that old to begin with? You're right, it takes time and to replace them. Which is why I am amazed that the PNM tries to palm off on the UNC term of office when it is the PNM that has been in control most of our independent history. Looks like the PNM not doing their job. And ahm, how do you employ manual labour while having free education? Well that's pretty simple you know. Free or not there are individuals who still don't get the education. Hire them. If there are not enough, get prisoners who are locked away for lesser crimes and put them to work as community service.


This is why Trinbagonians are never happy. We expect miracles from mere mortals and never even try to look at the problem from anothers point of view. Running a country is not as easy as some of you seem to think.

I agree with you. But the PNM has had so many chances, so much time and so much money to get even a fraction of what other countries manage to do that it's laughable.

[deathwinger]

So there you said it, the PNM is a nonsense party.

[King B]

Hold yuh horses dey. The party group for the constituency is closer to the electorate than Manning and the general council. And this being election means it really doesn't matter whether Manning and however many others on the general council were elected previously. The elections are to decide if those very people remain in office or not. You think it's not democratic to have a party group from the constituency decide on the representative, but you think it is MORE democratic to have Manning and the general council who are far removed from the constituency decide? RIght I done talk on that one.

A handful of people in a party group who may be of an opinion that is not representative of the majority of the PNM and other supporters in the constituency should have more say than elected officials? No way. Party groups offer recommendations, that is it. It has always been part of the party's constitution and Valley, as a member of the General Council and screening committee, is well aware of that. I am having a hard time seeing what is undemocratic about that.


Yes KB, as a matter of fact the US is less democratic! They are losing more and more of their rights all the time, which is why the patriot act caused all that uproar! Now hear what eh, when you understand the point I was making about controlling through allowing, then get back to me. Because for you to jump to the conclusion of anarchy means you clearly have not thought through what I was originally saying. Hint: When you don't make something illegal, people don't go underground with it and so it becomes easier to control it at an acceptable level.

What I am saying is that everything should not be allowed especially when controlling is extremely difficult. Look at the majority of countries and states in the US that have legalized activities that can be considered social ills. The majority of them have limited natural resources and allow these things as a source of income. They make a deal with the devil. A sure sign that a country has limited resources are 1) huge tax breaks e.g. no state taxes in Nevada, Florida and Delaware and 1% corporate income tax in St Lucia, 2) anonymous offshore banking - it is mainly used to hide income from illegal sources and tax purposes, 3) legal prostitution - nuff said and 4) legal gambling. Nevada is a prime example because they have absolutely no natural resources because it is mainly desert. They will allow anyhting for money. Are we that desperate or morally bankrupt to allow the same?


I agree with you. But the PNM has had so many chances, so much time and so much money to get even a fraction of what other countries manage to do that it's laughable.

T&T has been in a deep recession since the late 70s. Recovery only began in the late 90s. This period is the first time in a long time we have had the resources to implement significant change. It is exactly why the last election was so important because the major parties knew whoever lost was probably going to be in opposition for a long time due to the unprecedented availability of resources to the incumbant. Drainage upgrades have begun but it would be crazy to expect 1000s of miles of pipe to be replaced, or a 100,000 homes to be built, or reform of the entire public service to happen in 5 years... regardless of who is in power.