What is a 'real criminal'?

[Gagamell]

Can anyone tell me what is a real criminal? The mother of one of the teenage boys who was charged for being in possession of the cape exams said that the media should leave her son alone and go after the 'real criminals'. So what is a 'real criminal'? Do you have to be of a particular race with a particular hair texture to be a 'real criminal'? These boys committed a crime that affected thousands of other students nationwide (one student actually committed suicide cause he couldn't deal with the stress of having to do the exams over) and they are not to be considered 'real criminals'? These boys have blood on their hands.

I wonder if it wasn't an Indian and it was a black boy from Laventille if this lady would have considered the boy a 'real criminal'? It's funny but these two boys who were charged so far and ordered to do community service were studying to become an accountant and civil engineer respectively, two professions that require a high amount of 'integrity'.

It is a well known fact that the leaking of exams has been going on for a long time in certain quarters, so it's not that some students or people living in a particular area of a certain kind are smarter, they damn CHEATING plain and simple. It was reported in the express that the young man's father threatened the media with a spanner and actually tried to run over a reporter with his van. I wonder if his wife would consider him a 'real criminal' for that kind of behaviour?

When parents behave like this and try to defend the indefensible when their children commits a wrong, should we really be surprised by the high level of crime and corrpution in this country? :roll:

[Amelia]

What were the charges laid?

[snowbird]

Gagamell crime has become so interwoven into the very fabric of T&T society that it has gotten to the point where some really cannot tell right from wrong anymore, or even recognize when they have crossed the line.
A prime example is a quote I once read in the Trinidad Guardian a few years ago; it was from the mother of a young man just convicted of murder (I think it was); anyway her words were........ " he is ah good boy, all he usta do was ah lil teefin an ting, he jus follow bad company dis time " :roll:

[Double Trouble]

Can anyone tell me what is a real criminal? .

It is a well known fact that the leaking of exams has been going on for a long time in certain quarters, so it's not that some students or people living in a particular area of a certain kind are smarter, they damn CHEATING plain and simple. It was reported in the express that the young man's father threatened the media with a spanner and actually tried to run over a reporter with his van. I wonder if his wife would consider him a 'real criminal' for that kind of behaviour?

When parents behave like this and try to defend the indefensible when their children commits a wrong, should we really be surprised by the high level of crime and corrpution in this country? :roll:

Gaga,

The behaviour of one set of these parents was extremely disgraceful, to say the least. Parents should never condone bad behaviour from their children. I believe that this father will soon be charged for his reckless behaviour. Their son did wrong and was punished with community service, a proper sentence in my opinion. These young men made a mistake and will be reminded about it for the rest of their lives. Why nail them to the cross for their poor judgement? Are they real criminals in the true sense of the word? Does this budding accountant or engineer put fear in your hearts? These boys would probably never get into trouble again, for the rest of their lives. In Canada this would be a misdemeanor.

Now, you made some extremely serious allegations about exam papers being leaked only to a certain segment of the population. You also claim that these alleged preferential leaks from previous years were the only reason why this segment of the population continually outperform the other major segment of T&T's population. If these leaks are as prevalent as you claim, don't you think the government would have taken earlier action against these fraudsters? Many of these students who belong to that certain segment of the population go on to distinguish themselves at local and foreign post secondary institutions. Surely you are not suggesting that they are cheating all the way to their professional designations?

[Gagamell]

The behaviour of one set of these parents was extremely disgraceful, to say the least. Parents should never condone bad behaviour from their children. I believe that this father will soon be charged for his reckless behaviour. Their son did wrong and was punished with community service, a proper sentence in my opinion. These young men made a mistake and will be reminded about it for the rest of their lives. Why nail them to the cross for their poor judgement? Are they real criminals in the true sense of the word? Does this budding accountant or engineer put fear in your hearts? These boys would probably never get into trouble again, for the rest of their lives. In Canada this would be a misdemeanor.

Now, you made some extremely serious allegations about exam papers being leaked only to a certain segment of the population. You also claim that these alleged preferential leaks from previous years were the only reason why this segment of the population continually outperform the other major segment of T&T's population. If these leaks are as prevalent as you claim, don't you think the government would have taken earlier action against these fraudsters? Many of these students who belong to that certain segment of the population go on to distinguish themselves at local and foreign post secondary institutions. Surely you are not suggesting that they are cheating all the way to their professional designations?

I beg to differ, if these boys had gotten away with their 'crime' they most likely would have moved on to bigger crimes. Any criminologist would tell you this. And if as a budding accountant I cheat to pass my exams, don't you think that when I do become an accountant I will be involved in tax fraud, cooking the books and other serious white colour crime? What is your definition of a 'real' criminal? Criminal is criminal, wrong is wrong. And yes, there is a segement of the population that has been involved in that bS for years.

My grandmother was a school supervisor five, and she always use to have altercations with the teachers and principals in central for similar nonsense especially where common entrace and cxc was concerned. I know what I'm talking about! They does damn cheat.

[Gagamell]

What were the charges laid?

Magistrate Adrian Darmanie eventually sentenced the duo to 100 hours community service and a year of supervised probation.

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl ... =161360131 (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article?id=161360131)

[Double Trouble]

The behaviour of one set of these parents was extremely disgraceful, to say the least. Parents should never condone bad behaviour from their children. I believe that this father will soon be charged for his reckless behaviour. Their son did wrong and was punished with community service, a proper sentence in my opinion. These young men made a mistake and will be reminded about it for the rest of their lives. Why nail them to the cross for their poor judgement? Are they real criminals in the true sense of the word? Does this budding accountant or engineer put fear in your hearts? These boys would probably never get into trouble again, for the rest of their lives. In Canada this would be a misdemeanor.

Now, you made some extremely serious allegations about exam papers being leaked only to a certain segment of the population. You also claim that these alleged preferential leaks from previous years were the only reason why this segment of the population continually outperform the other major segment of T&T's population. If these leaks are as prevalent as you claim, don't you think the government would have taken earlier action against these fraudsters? Many of these students who belong to that certain segment of the population go on to distinguish themselves at local and foreign post secondary institutions. Surely you are not suggesting that they are cheating all the way to their professional designations?

I beg to differ, if these boys had gotten away with their 'crime' they most likely would have moved on to bigger crimes. Any criminologist would tell you this. And if as a budding accountant I cheat to pass my exams, don't you think that when I do become an accountant I will be involved in tax fraud, cooking the books and other serious white colour crime? What is your definition of a 'real' criminal? Criminal is criminal, wrong is wrong. And yes, there is a segement of the population that has been involved in that bS for years.

My grandmother was a school supervisor five, and she always use to have altercations with the teachers and principals in central for similar nonsense especially where common entrace and cxc was concerned. I know what I'm talking about! They does damn cheat.


Gaga,

Your grandmother may have been a school supervisor but her allegations of misconduct by Indian teachers and principals seem more rooted in sour grapes and racial jealousy than facts. My uncle was the chief supervisor of schools at one time and he didn't tolerate any nonsense from teachers, principals or the employees at the Ministry Of Education in Port Of Spain. So I know what I am talking about.

If these Indian students were such cheats, as you're attempting to make them out to be, how do you explain their successes in "O" level, "A" level and post secondary institutions? Some of these institutions of higher learning are even in foreign countries. Gaga, It's not because Indian children are born smarter than their counterparts in your community. It's not because Indian children are cheats or get preferential treatment from educators. The reasons are quite simple but for the most part cultural. Indian parents stress the importance of education from an early age, making it the number one priority in their children's lives. The grandparents and great grandparents were probably uneducated cane cutters but they always had great aspirations and vision for the next generation. The fact that Indians now dominate the professional and business is no fluke, just part of the master plan.

[wandelaar]

i work in the security branche in a land far away from Trinidad. this is something I have observed by PEOPLE.
If I do something forbidden by law it is excusable, if someone else does the same thing they should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
This is why we have judges who are presumed to be just in their interpretation of what is written in the books.

greetings

[Gagamell]

Gaga,

Your grandmother may have been a school supervisor but her allegations of misconduct by Indian teachers and principals seem more rooted in sour grapes and racial jealousy than facts. My uncle was the chief supervisor of schools at one time and he didn't tolerate any nonsense from teachers, principals or the employees at the Ministry Of Education in Port Of Spain. So I know what I am talking about.

If these Indian students were such cheats, as you're attempting to make them out to be, how do you explain their successes in "O" level, "A" level and post secondary institutions? Some of these institutions of higher learning are even in foreign countries. Gaga, It's not because Indian children are born smarter than their counterparts in your community. It's not because Indian children are cheats or get preferential treatment from educators. The reasons are quite simple but for the most part cultural. Indian parents stress the importance of education from an early age, making it the number one priority in their children's lives. The grandparents and great grandparents were probably uneducated cane cutters but they always had great aspirations and vision for the next generation. The fact that Indians now dominate the professional and business is no fluke, just part of the master plan.

Yea, and I'm sure your goodie East Indian Student Mr. Joseph was super bright too. You could say what you want, my grandmother use to deal with them good and proper, they are damn cheats. Indians now dominate the professional and business? Says who? Is Sabaga an Indian? How about Duprey? What about the Eliases? How about MR. Nicholas? You must be torking about de HCU. buhahahahahahaahaha

[Amelia]

Buh what de hell is this!

Gags, I trying not to misinterpret what yuh saying, so help meh, all dem central indians does cheat in dey exams?

I ask bec
it's not that some students or people living in a particular area of a certain kind are smarter, they damn CHEATING plain and simple is a rather foolish statement to make bec it seems to dismiss all the hardworking honest kids out there; as well as the ones who are, quite simply, smarter.

Sure, students cheat, students of ALL backgrounds and ethnicities cheat. (Please note, that is not to say ALL students cheat, there's a diff) Me eh have no family working in the Min of Ed to back up my statement. But I was a student too and I knew what went on.

Doh get meh wrong eh Gags, I agree that this is a serious issue and the behaviour and comments of the boy's parents are quite disgusting. I agree that the boys do have the potential to become big time criminals if they continue on this path. But I also agree with the magistrate's sentence. One should not seek to punish for crimes that might be.

I obviously dont know what was going on in de lady head when she made reference to 'real criminals' but it seems to me she wasnt speaking from a racial perspective but a crime perspective - murderers on the loose but the media studying her son petty crime. So u see Gags, is not a racial ting about who have what kinda hair and if dey from Lavantee and which race does cheat more than de rest. Is a ignorance ting. This woman is a damn fool if she eh realise that her son's sense of morals and fairplay is skewed and it could put him in bigger trouble later in life.

Last point. IMO, these boys made a mistake. Not in the sense of 'oops I didnt realise', but in the sense of poor judgement. They're young and I'm sure they werent the only ones. The ppl who are most to blame for this entire thing are those who leaked the papers. These would have been grown adults who should know better. So if we gonna crucify anyone and speak of 'blood being on their hands', it should be those ppl from the Ministry of Education.

[Gagamell]

Buh what de hell is this!

Gags, I trying not to misinterpret what yuh saying, so help meh, all dem central indians does cheat in dey exams?

I ask bec
it's not that some students or people living in a particular area of a certain kind are smarter, they damn CHEATING plain and simple is a rather foolish statement to make bec it seems to dismiss all the hardworking honest kids out there; as well as the ones who are, quite simply, smarter.



I said 'some' you say 'all', so I agree, your statement is a stupid one. :D My point is people like to boast about certain things when they are reluctant to reveal the manner in which some people come about their success. It's just the same way how people like to say the Sryians work so hard long time riding bikes selling cloth when it is a well known fact that many in the Syrian community are involved in drugs.

It's just how they like to boast of how so many indentured Indians work so hard to be successful, but no one wants to reveal the fact that when Chadee was the biggest criminal cum drug lord in this country, many of these same families benefited via loans from that infamous drug cartel. So much so that when Chadee was hanged, many of them thought they didn't have to pay back, only to find his people knocking on their doors in the middle of the night with a directive from Chadee's ex to pay up or lose their loved ones!

My point is when almost any 'transgression' is committed by someone of the afro race it is always seen as 'real crime', but anyone else it is not 'real crime'. They full of bollox. :roll:

[Gagamell]

Last point. IMO, these boys made a mistake. Not in the sense of 'oops I didnt realise', but in the sense of poor judgement.

So all dem black boys who involved in gangs etc, are they not also suffering from poor judgement? No....they're just 'real criminals right'? It in dey blood. :roll:

[Amelia]

Gags, I ent see why u insist on making comparisons based on race when nowhere was it suggested that race was the premise on which the woman referred to 'real criminals'. U sounding like u have an axe to grind wid dem Indians.

[Double Trouble]

Gaga,

Your grandmother may have been a school supervisor but her allegations of misconduct by Indian teachers and principals seem more rooted in sour grapes and racial jealousy than facts. My uncle was the chief supervisor of schools at one time and he didn't tolerate any nonsense from teachers, principals or the employees at the Ministry Of Education in Port Of Spain. So I know what I am talking about.

If these Indian students were such cheats, as you're attempting to make them out to be, how do you explain their successes in "O" level, "A" level and post secondary institutions? Some of these institutions of higher learning are even in foreign countries. Gaga, It's not because Indian children are born smarter than their counterparts in your community. It's not because Indian children are cheats or get preferential treatment from educators. The reasons are quite simple but for the most part cultural. Indian parents stress the importance of education from an early age, making it the number one priority in their children's lives. The grandparents and great grandparents were probably uneducated cane cutters but they always had great aspirations and vision for the next generation. The fact that Indians now dominate the professional and business is no fluke, just part of the master plan.

Yea, and I'm sure your goodie East Indian Student Mr. Joseph was super bright too. You could say what you want, my grandmother use to deal with them good and proper, they are damn cheats. Indians now dominate the professional and business? Says who? Is Sabaga an Indian? How about Duprey? What about the Eliases? How about MR. Nicholas? You must be torking about de HCU. buhahahahahahaahaha

Gaga,

Too bad yuh granny didn't spend less time on Indian bashing and just a little of her time on getting you acquainted with the English language. I said dominate as in the number of professionals and businesses, compared to the rest of the population. There was no reference made to size or assets.

[Gagamell]

Gaga,

Too bad yuh granny didn't spend less time on Indian bashing and just a little of her time on getting you acquainted with the English language. I said dominate as in the number of professionals and businesses, compared to the rest of the population. There was no reference made to size or assets.

It real funny how every time someone points out the faults of the Indo community they are Indian bashing, and when an Indo commits a crime it's not 'real crime'. My grandmother was unbiased in carrying out her duties, you want to tell me because she didn't let those central principals get away with their bs she was against Indians? :roll: That's the problem with the Indo community in this country, some how they got in their heads that they can do whatever the hell they want and get away with it. And until orl yuh change that way of thinking Bas and dem will always be in opposition. Yuh right, I eh acquainted wit de english language, I eh ah Indo. :roll:

[Gagamell]

Gags, I ent see why u insist on making comparisons based on race when nowhere was it suggested that race was the premise on which the woman referred to 'real criminals'. U sounding like u have an axe to grind wid dem Indians.

No, but I listened to what she said and I observe how people reacted to this situation just the same way I watch you lot on here bash the people of Laventille and morvant, and the 'black PNM government', yet you are still attempting to down play what these students did. They are not 'real criminals', they had 'poor judgment'.

The woman didn't have to say it in verbatim, contrary to what you and many may think not all of us out here are dotish and we can read between the lines and make comparisons based upon people's reactions when speaking about different races. Let all those who have eyes see and all who have ears hear, and who ever could smell do like me and block orl yuh nose because the hypocrisy and subtle racial prejudices in this country stinks!

[Amelia]

Oh. Then it boils down to a ques of crime and the impact of it on the perception of race/ race relations.

Lemme break down meh thoughts in point form or I'll start to ramble:
1. there are diff categories of crime. Cussing in public cannot be compared to murder even though both are illegal. There is such a thing a perspective.
2. The crime that bothers ppl most are those that threaten their lives and physical safety.
3. So, even though fraud is a crime and one that there is nuff representation of non-blacks, it will not be highlighted or put to the forefront as much as the crime that threatens lives - like murder.
4. Majority of murders are gang related. Majority membership of gangs are black males.
5. Majority of these murders occure in crime hotspots. Majority of these hotspots are black dominated areas. (also poor areas, but dais another thread.)
6. Majority prison population is black male.

Do u see a trend Gags?

Lets go to perception now. Show meh a young black guy with liming on the corner with a vest and a three quarter pants with he drawers showing and I will wind up meh glass and lock meh door. And the more he blinging, the faster I driving away. Might be unfair but those are the signs I've come to read as threats to my safety. Why? Bec I work near a police station and I see them being brought in, day after day, same look.

True, I eh black, so it could be a racist thing, except my black friends also feel the same way. One even refuse to use the Lady Yound Road anymore cos she dont wanna drive thru Morvant ever in life again. She was carjacked at gun point...by guess who?

This same woman happily counts off the death toll of gang members. She's one of those that hopes that these N******* would kill off each other and leave law abiding citizens in peace. When reminded that she's black, she made a distinctinon that I thought was interesting - she said they are not blacks, they not even ppl, they are animals who kill for the power of it. She goes on to acknowlege that they need help but makes it clear that she is not *****ing TTSPCA.

She is not alone in her belief. Blacks make the distinction bet Blacks and N******. So its become a class thing somewhat. And u know what? If u go down to Enterprise area in Central, there are young indian boys with the same wanna-be gangsta look. And they are viewed with the same scorn and face the same prejudice. Why? Cos they are the ones deemed to be responsible for the crime in the area.

So u see Gags, while there may be subtle racial prejudice across the board (which is another thread), when it comes to crime, there is a reason for the perceptions and the bias. It might be wrong to paint all black youths from a specific area and with a specific look with the same brush, but dais the reality.

[Gagamell]

Oh. Then it boils down to a ques of crime and the impact of it on the perception of race/ race relations.

Lemme break down meh thoughts in point form or I'll start to ramble:
1. there are diff categories of crime. Cussing in public cannot be compared to murder even though both are illegal. There is such a thing a perspective.
2. The crime that bothers ppl most are those that threaten their lives and physical safety.
3. So, even though fraud is a crime and one that there is nuff representation of non-blacks, it will not be highlighted or put to the forefront as much as the crime that threatens lives - like murder.
4. Majority of murders are gang related. Majority membership of gangs are black males.
5. Majority of these murders occure in crime hotspots. Majority of these hotspots are black dominated areas. (also poor areas, but dais another thread.)
6. Majority prison population is black male.

Do u see a trend Gags?

Lets go to perception now. Show meh a young black guy with liming on the corner with a vest and a three quarter pants with he drawers showing and I will wind up meh glass and lock meh door. And the more he blinging, the faster I driving away. Might be unfair but those are the signs I've come to read as threats to my safety. Why? Bec I work near a police station and I see them being brought in, day after day, same look.

True, I eh black, so it could be a racist thing, except my black friends also feel the same way. One even refuse to use the Lady Yound Road anymore cos she dont wanna drive thru Morvant ever in life again. She was carjacked at gun point...by guess who?

This same woman happily counts off the death toll of gang members. She's one of those that hopes that these N******* would kill off each other and leave law abiding citizens in peace. When reminded that she's black, she made a distinctinon that I thought was interesting - she said they are not blacks, they not even ppl, they are animals who kill for the power of it. She goes on to acknowlege that they need help but makes it clear that she is not *****ing TTSPCA.

She is not alone in her belief. Blacks make the distinction bet Blacks and N******. So its become a class thing somewhat. And u know what? If u go down to Enterprise area in Central, there are young indian boys with the same wanna-be gangsta look. And they are viewed with the same scorn and face the same prejudice. Why? Cos they are the ones deemed to be responsible for the crime in the area.

So u see Gags, while there may be subtle racial prejudice across the board (which is another thread), when it comes to crime, there is a reason for the perceptions and the bias. It might be wrong to paint all black youths from a specific area and with a specific look with the same brush, but dais the reality.

The only reason there is for racial profiling is bigotry and racism. Liming on the block wearing a vest and baggy jeans does not make one a criminal. Because if you pass down Westmoorings in the back by St Finbars RC church you would see all those uppity boys wearing the same sh*t and the stench of weed emanating from that group is repulsive!

There may be gang related crimes prevalent in one spot, but there are alot of alcohol, domestic violence and child abuse coming out of the Indo community, as a matter of fact if one observes the last couple of major child abuse stories almost all were Indo children, shall I start to assume that Indos are naturally child predators?

Whether a certain crime is prevalent in a particular area is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is when a black person committs a crime all and sundry has their two cents to say but when it is someone of a different race all attempts are made to down play the crime committed and that's bollox. You are fooling no one but yourselves. Ignorance is bliss!

[Amelia]

The only reason there is for racial profiling is bigotry and racism. Agreed. And since ppl of the same race have the same issues as well, it cant be a racist thing. Liming on the block wearing a vest and baggy jeans does not make one a criminal. Of course not. And that by itself does not create the perception of a criminal. Put it in the context of a ill-kept youth wearing that get-up in a crime hotspot and he'll be viewed differently. Because if you pass down Westmoorings in the back by St Finbars RC church you would see all those uppity boys wearing the same sh*t and the stench of weed emanating from that group is repulsive! But no one fears them bec how many ppl have been shot in West Moorings in the year so far? Like I said, the prejudice stems from a fear for personal safety. I feel safe in West Moorings, those fellas could smoke how much weed dey want, my safety isnt threatened, thus I dont fear or judge them as much as I would if those same guys were doing the same thing in a corner in Barataria.

There may be gang related crimes prevalent in one spot, but there are alot of alcohol, domestic violence and child abuse coming out of the Indo community, as a matter of fact if one observes the last couple of major child abuse stories almost all were Indo children, shall I start to assume that Indos are naturally child predators? U can assume anything u want. But as I stated before, a man beating up his child or his wife does not directly put my life at risk. So those crimes will not create a fear/prejudice as pronounced as the crimes that do.

Whether a certain crime is prevalent in a particular area is irrelevant, the fact of the matter is when a black person committs a crime all and sundry has their two cents to say but when it is someone of a different race all attempts are made to down play the crime committed and that's bollox. You are fooling no one but yourselves. Ignorance is bliss!

Its not a ques of downplaying Gags. If I tell u that there is a gang of fellas stalking your area committing robberies and rape and for the past two nights two houses in your area have been robbed and there was one rape. And I also tell u that Rumsingh from down de road just chop his wife and make his three children drink poison then killed himself, which would u honestly be more concerned about? Which story would u be keen to hear more about? Which would u like limited police resources to focus on?

[Gagamell]

Agreed. And since ppl of the same race have the same issues as well, it cant be a racist thing.

It is downplaying, and it is racist when the crimes of other races are downplayed and the crimes of one race is made out to be the soul problem of the country.

[Gagamell]

And until people stop creating these psuedo categories of 'real criminals' and 'fake criminals' I will continue to hold the above views no matter what you or anybody else says. :roll:

[Double Trouble]

And until people stop creating these psuedo categories of 'real criminals' and 'fake criminals' I will continue to hold the above views no matter what you or anybody else says. :roll:

Gaga,

You can hold whatever view, that makes you feel good about yourself. However, how do you explain the disproportionate number of brothers incarcerated in prisons around the world? Is there a conspiracy, in your opinion, to make Blacks appear more violent than they are in real life?

[Amelia]

And until people stop creating these psuedo categories of 'real criminals' and 'fake criminals' I will continue to hold the above views no matter what you or anybody else says. :roll:


...as u are entitled to do.

Lemme just say though, that I agree with u that it is ridiculous for ppl to be creating these psuedo categories of 'real criminals' and 'fake criminals'. I absolutely hate it when ppl are stopped by officers for one reason or other and the first thing out dey mouth is why yuh doh go look for 'real' criminals. When yuh breaking the law, keep yuh tail quiet and take yuh ticket and doh study who should be doing what instead. If was 'small ting' then u shouldnt be doing it cos yuh life doh depend on it.

[Gagamell]

And until people stop creating these psuedo categories of 'real criminals' and 'fake criminals' I will continue to hold the above views no matter what you or anybody else says. :roll:

Gaga,

You can hold whatever view, that makes you feel good about yourself. However, how do you explain the disproportionate number of brothers incarcerated in prisons around the world? Is there a conspiracy, in your opinion, to make Blacks appear more violent than they are in real life?

Whatever you say....you're doing quite a good job of revealing your 'racist intent' on the other discussion, I need not say anymore on this topic. However I have a trick question...the enormous prison population in India, 28.5% over-capacity and rising, what's the major ethnic group in their prisons? This is a multiple choice question, see options below

a) Indians

b) You're an idiot

c) You're a racist dummy

d) Africans

And while you muse for the correct answer to that question. I just thought I'll let you know that in Cambodia, China, Fiji, Japan, Phillipines, Korea, Thailand just to name a few, all have exponential prison populations and chronic over crowding. None of them have large Afro populations. So rather than spewing the bs from CNN and BBC about Africans having the largest prison population do some damned research.

[Double Trouble]

And until people stop creating these psuedo categories of 'real criminals' and 'fake criminals' I will continue to hold the above views no matter what you or anybody else says. :roll:

Gaga,

You can hold whatever view, that makes you feel good about yourself. However, how do you explain the disproportionate number of brothers incarcerated in prisons around the world? Is there a conspiracy, in your opinion, to make Blacks appear more violent than they are in real life?

Whatever you say....you're doing quite a good job of revealing your 'racist intent' on the other discussion, I need not say anymore on this topic. However I have a trick question...the enormous prison population in India, 28.5% over-capacity and rising, what's the major ethnic group in their prisons? This is a multiple choice question, see options below

a) Indians

b) You're an idiot

c) You're a racist dummy

d) Africans

And while you muse for the correct answer to that question. I just thought I'll let you know that in Cambodia, China, Fiji, Japan, Phillipines, Korea, Thailand just to name a few, all have exponential prison populations and chronic over crowding. None of them have large Afro populations. So rather than spewing the bs from CNN and BBC about Africans having the largest prison population do some damned research.

Gaga,

Calm dong nah man! Why yuh getting so upset? Here is a hint for yuh. You must always zero in on the "key" word and in this discussion it's "disproportionate" as in way outta whack. Disproportionate does not apply to the prison population in India because the majority of the inmates are Indians. The prison population could be 99.99% Indians and that would be a normal condition. As for Cambodia, Fiji, Japan etc, how many Africans are represented in their general population? That argument is sheer nonsense and you should know it.

P.S. You are making yourself out to be an enormous bore when you cry racism to combat facts.

[sylvestter]

a criminal is a criminal. no room for sub-categorization

[citizen]

a criminal is a criminal. no room for sub-categorization.

This is incorrect. My argument is as follows.

1. A criminal is someone who commits a crime.
2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".
3. If a crime is a crime, then littering is the same as murder, which is patently false.
4. Thus the statement "a criminal is a criminal" is a false premise, as it leads to a false conclusion.

This is why we have laws that govern the penalties associated with various crimes.

[Falcon]

2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".

A rather facetious extrapolation.

[Amelia]

2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".

A rather facetious extrapolation.

How so? I agree with citizen.

[snowbird]

It real funny how every time someone points out the faults of the Indo community they are Indian bashing, and when an Indo commits a crime it's not 'real crime'. :roll:

Either that or is not dey fault Gags; check out this case:

Toddler starved to death...
Trini mother charged in cult killin
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news10.html

and the 'crying Grand-mother's response in particular ......

Ramkissoon’s mother, Seeta Khadan-Newton, said she was pleased to hear that others have been charged in her grandson’s death.

Referring to her daughter, Khadan-Newton said: “She had no control...They made the rules.”

Watch she going tuh plead ah 'Jim Jones'. :roll:

[sylvestter]

2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".

A rather facetious extrapolation.precisely. the subject of this post is "what is a 'real' criminal". a criminal is a criminal. theer's no distinction between real or un-real for greater or lesser offences.

[Amelia]

2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".

A rather facetious extrapolation.precisely. the subject of this post is "what is a 'real' criminal". a criminal is a criminal. theer's no distinction between real or un-real for greater or lesser offences.

Now who's being facetious? The question was not asked in a vacuum. It followed a specific incident and relates to a specific comment made by someone.

Does being ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt make u a criminal?

[sylvestter]

Now who's being facetious? The question was not asked in a vacuum. It followed a specific incident and relates to a specific comment made by someone.

Does being ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt make u a criminal?
that's a really stupid question.

is a ticket representative of a conviction?
just because someone is arrested for murder it does not make them a murderer.

incidentally, is the traffic court a criminal court?

[Double Trouble]

a criminal is a criminal. no room for sub-categorization


sylvestter,

No room you say? If your statement is correct, why are there minimum and maximum security institutions? Why are there different sentences handed out, based on the nature of the crimes?

[Double Trouble]

2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".

A rather facetious extrapolation.precisely. the subject of this post is "what is a 'real' criminal". a criminal is a criminal. theer's no distinction between real or un-real for greater or lesser offences.

Falcon,

Even though stealing a pack of gum at the local grocery store and murdering somone in a driveby are considered crimes by the halls of justice, there is a distinction based on the nature of the crime. Using your logic, I am guessing you'd have no qualms about a shoplifter or child molester moving next door to your family home.

[Double Trouble]

a criminal is a criminal. no room for sub-categorization.

This is incorrect. My argument is as follows.

1. A criminal is someone who commits a crime.
2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".
3. If a crime is a crime, then littering is the same as murder, which is patently false.
4. Thus the statement "a criminal is a criminal" is a false premise, as it leads to a false conclusion.

This is why we have laws that govern the penalties associated with various crimes.

Precisley!

[Double Trouble]

It real funny how every time someone points out the faults of the Indo community they are Indian bashing, and when an Indo commits a crime it's not 'real crime'. :roll:

Either that or is not dey fault Gags; check out this case:

Toddler starved to death...
Trini mother charged in cult killin
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news10.html

and the 'crying Grand-mother's response in particular ......

Ramkissoon’s mother, Seeta Khadan-Newton, said she was pleased to hear that others have been charged in her grandson’s death.

Referring to her daughter, Khadan-Newton said: “She had no control...They made the rules.”

Watch she going tuh plead ah 'Jim Jones'. :roll:

snow,

That's a stretch, even for you. This woman obviously has mental issues and I wouldn't be surprised if she is sent to a psychiatric institute.

"Ramkissoon was being held at the city Women’s Detention Centre under psychiatric observation, according to court documents".

[dancerboy]

2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".

A rather facetious extrapolation.

How so? I agree with citizen.
I agree with AMELIA for agreeing with CITIZEN. The punishment may differ markedly, but that's not the argument being made on this thread. If i fall asleep at the wheel of my vehicle, and kill a pedestrian. That's called an accident. If i am standing at a bus stop, and a bus hit me, and i suffer only minor bruises, it's also called an accident. ORR, the latter is a little accident, and the former a big accident. GUILLINA cleaned up NY by focusing on the little crime( he called it quality of life) like jay walking, drinking from a beer can that's exposed, occupying more than one seat on the subway(putting your bag on a seat), and other little crimes that seemed insignificant to the general public. But we all know as a result of that NY is now classified as one of the safest large cicties in the US. When people repeatedly escape being caught for small crimes, the temptaion for committing big crimes increases by leaps and bounds. The criminals leaping, and the citizens bound by the crimes.

DANCERBOY

[snowbird]

It real funny how every time someone points out the faults of the Indo community they are Indian bashing, and when an Indo commits a crime it's not 'real crime'. :roll:

Either that or is not dey fault Gags; check out this case:

Toddler starved to death...
Trini mother charged in cult killin
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news10.html

and the 'crying Grand-mother's response in particular ......

Ramkissoon’s mother, Seeta Khadan-Newton, said she was pleased to hear that others have been charged in her grandson’s death.

Referring to her daughter, Khadan-Newton said: “She had no control...They made the rules.”

Watch she going tuh plead ah 'Jim Jones'. :roll:

snow,

That's a stretch, even for you. This woman obviously has mental issues and I wouldn't be surprised if she is sent to a psychiatric institute.

"Ramkissoon was being held at the city Women’s Detention Centre under psychiatric observation, according to court documents".

Now now whose 'stretching', already you are making the excuse.... she has mental issues. Isn't it a fact that it is customary in the US when one is charged with a haenous crime to have a psychiatric examination done.

Her mental issues were so horrid that 'other people' could kill her child, and she went along; even to the point of trying to cover up the crime.... eh eh, no mental issues here; all of them commit the crime, all of them should pay.

[Amelia]

SB, by your logic, it seems its the authorities, and not DT, who are making the excuses:


Ramkissoon was being held at the city Women’s Detention Centre under psychiatric observation

I saw a conspiracy thread somewhere in my wanderings. This seems to be a good one to add - the world is tryna make the indians (and those og indian origin ) out to be faultless. :roll:

[Amelia]

Now who's being facetious? The question was not asked in a vacuum. It followed a specific incident and relates to a specific comment made by someone.

Does being ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt make u a criminal?
that's a really stupid question.

is a ticket representative of a conviction?
just because someone is arrested for murder it does not make them a murderer.

incidentally, is the traffic court a criminal court?

Ummm, sylvestter, its sounds like a really stupid ques cos it highlights the stupidity of your own statement :geek: . A ticket cannot be equated to an arrest. U are not denied liberty or entitled to any of the rights attendant to it. At the point of getting ticketed, your guilt is not in question, it has already been determined. And that is how it may be compared to a conviction >> u've been found guilty. And, as one guilty of breaking the law, according to your flawed logic, is therefore a criminal. :roll:

Is there such a thing as 'traffic court'? And what does it matter whether or not it is Syl? Ent there is "no room for sub-categorization"? The law is the law. Once broken, its a crime. And all are criminals :roll:

[Double Trouble]

and when an Indo commits a crime it's not 'real crime'. [/b] :roll:

Either that or is not dey fault Gags; check out this case:

Toddler starved to death...
Trini mother charged in cult killin
http://www.guardian.co.tt/news10.html

and the 'crying Grand-mother's response in particular ......

Ramkissoon’s mother, Seeta Khadan-Newton, said she was pleased to hear that others have been charged in her grandson’s death.

Referring to her daughter, Khadan-Newton said: “She had no control...They made the rules.”

Watch she going tuh plead ah 'Jim Jones'. :roll:

snow,

That's a stretch, even for you. This woman obviously has mental issues and I wouldn't be surprised if she is sent to a psychiatric institute.

"Ramkissoon was being held at the city Women’s Detention Centre under psychiatric observation, according to court documents".

Now now whose 'stretching', already you are making the excuse.... she has mental issues. Isn't it a fact that it is customary in the US when one is charged with a haenous crime to have a psychiatric examination done.

[/quote]

snow,

No! It's not a fact! You have to off the deep end before there is even a slight chance the courts will call for an examination. Wha happen, like you doh look at Nancy Grace on CNN or what? Everybody does be quilty for that woman, even the poor Ramsays whose daughter was found murdered in the basement.

[Gagamell]

Gaga,

Calm dong nah man! Why yuh getting so upset? Here is a hint for yuh. You must always zero in on the "key" word and in this discussion it's "disproportionate" as in way outta whack. Disproportionate does not apply to the prison population in India because the majority of the inmates are Indians. The prison population could be 99.99% Indians and that would be a normal condition. As for Cambodia, Fiji, Japan etc, how many Africans are represented in their general population? That argument is sheer nonsense and you should know it.

P.S. You are making yourself out to be an enormous bore when you cry racism to combat facts.

First things first, you haven't provided any facts. Secondly the word disproportionate could either mean relatively too small or too large. So how come it's disproportionate with regards to afro prison population but it does not apply to other races irrespective of location? You trying to play games with words, but hear what, find some other sucker to fool ok?

[Gagamell]

a criminal is a criminal. no room for sub-categorization


sylvestter,

No room you say? If your statement is correct, why are there minimum and maximum security institutions? Why are there different sentences handed out, based on the nature of the crimes?

Because Sylvestter did not say there is no room for sub-categorization in the 'sentencing' of crimes. He said there is no room for sub-categorization in the actual 'crimes'. Hence in your own response you validated what sylvester said, that there may be varying convictions or consequences but they are all CRIMES. A crime is a crime a criminal is a criminal irrespective of the 'nature' of the crime it is still a crime. Ent a car is a car irrepsective of model?

[Gagamell]

snow,

That's a stretch, even for you. This woman obviously has mental issues and I wouldn't be surprised if she is sent to a psychiatric institute.

"Ramkissoon was being held at the city Women’s Detention Centre under psychiatric observation, according to court documents".

What qualifications do you have to determine if this woman is mentally ill? And have you examined her yourself? The mere fact that she is being held in a detention centre under psychiatric observation does not mean she is insane. It simply means the process of convicting her has begun and the court is in the process of actually determining if she acted 'sanely' and therefore should be charged for accessory to murder or if she is insane and therefore not of sound mind. So don't be so quick to be making EXCUSES for her actions.

[Amelia]

a criminal is a criminal. no room for sub-categorization


sylvestter,

No room you say? If your statement is correct, why are there minimum and maximum security institutions? Why are there different sentences handed out, based on the nature of the crimes?

Because Sylvestter did not say there is no room for sub-categorization in the 'sentencing' of crimes. He said there is no room for sub-categorization in the actual 'crimes'. Hence in your own response you validated what sylvester said, that there may be varying convictions or consequences but they are all CRIMES. A crime is a crime a criminal is a criminal irrespective of the 'nature' of the crime it is still a crime. Ent a car is a car irrepsective of model?


Whats the legal definition of crime? Perhaps when we clarify that we'll be in a better position to argue who are the 'real' criminals.

I'm subject to correction as usual, but when I googled crime, this is what I got
CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state as a felony or misdemeanor.

A felony, I imagine are the really bad crimes like murder and rape etc and misdemeanor would be the small stuff like traffic offenses and littering.

It stand to reason that a criminal therefore, is anyone who commits a crime!
We're all criminals!

[Gagamell]

a criminal is a criminal. no room for sub-categorization.

This is incorrect. My argument is as follows.

1. A criminal is someone who commits a crime.
2. If "a criminal is a criminal" then by extension, "a crime is a crime".
3. If a crime is a crime, then littering is the same as murder, which is patently false.
4. Thus the statement "a criminal is a criminal" is a false premise, as it leads to a false conclusion.

This is why we have laws that govern the penalties associated with various crimes.

How someone can contradict themselves in so many ways is astonishing. :roll: Did you re-read what you type? As per the law and as per our constitution, someone who litters is infact the same as a murderer...... a 'criminal'. Because littering and muder are both 'crimes'. Look in the dictionary and observe the definition of a crime....it's an act or ommission constituting an offence, it does not state that a crime is littering or a crime is murder the definition is universal.

A criminal is someone who commits a crime, i.e. a person who commits an offence, and the offences are determined by our laws. The nature of the offence is irrelevant, the fact remains if something is stated in law, and you act contrary to that which is stated then you are in breach of the law and in fact a criminal.

[sylvestter]

Because Sylvestter did not say there is no room for sub-categorization in the 'sentencing' of crimes. He said there is no room for sub-categorization in the actual 'crimes'. Hence in your own response you validated what sylvester said, that there may be varying convictions or consequences but they are all CRIMES. A crime is a crime a criminal is a criminal irrespective of the 'nature' of the crime it is still a crime. Ent a car is a car irrepsective of model?thank you gagamell. these people missing my point.

[Gagamell]

Whats the legal definition of crime? Perhaps when we clarify that we'll be in a better position to argue who are the 'real' criminals.

I'm subject to correction as usual, but when I googled crime, this is what I got
CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state as a felony or misdemeanor.

A felony, I imagine are the really bad crimes like murder and rape etc and misdemeanor would be the small stuff like traffic offenses and littering.

It stand to reason that a criminal therefore, is anyone who commits a crime!
We're all criminals![/color]

Well thank you for demonstrating that what you said prior to the above quoted post was in fact ta ta. Because as per your definition once it is declared a crime by the state then it is a crime irrespective of nature, there are no distinctions apart from the sentences. And as for the question with regard to the traffic court being a criminal court, it is in fact a crime under our constitution for not wearing a seat belt.

[Amelia]

Hmmmm....u say this:

thank you gagamell. these people missing my point.

But had responded thus:




Does being ticketed for not wearing a seatbelt make u a criminal?
that's a really stupid question.

is a ticket representative of a conviction?
just because someone is arrested for murder it does not make them a murderer.

incidentally, is the traffic court a criminal court?

Do u KNOW whats your point?

[sylvestter]

yes amelia i do.
clearly you don't.
no worries.

wheel and reload on your definition of crime. it might be instructive to use a law textbook. (don't feel compelled to share it with me though. you an gagamell can fight-up.)

[Amelia]

Whats the legal definition of crime? Perhaps when we clarify that we'll be in a better position to argue who are the 'real' criminals.

I'm subject to correction as usual, but when I googled crime, this is what I got
CRIME - A crime is a wrongdoing classified by the state as a felony or misdemeanor.

A felony, I imagine are the really bad crimes like murder and rape etc and misdemeanor would be the small stuff like traffic offenses and littering.

It stand to reason that a criminal therefore, is anyone who commits a crime!
We're all criminals![/color]

Well thank you for demonstrating that what you said prior to the above quoted post was in fact ta ta. Because as per your definition once it is declared a crime by the state then it is a crime irrespective of nature, there are no distinctions apart from the sentences. And as for the question with regard to the traffic court being a criminal court, it is in fact a crime under our constitution for not wearing a seat belt.


Ahhh but Gags, sadly, I dont concur. The above post was to ensure we were starting from the same page.
I mean, sure the letter of the law says we're all criminals but when u get one of those character certificate thingys from the police saying u're not a criminal, whats does that mean exactly?
Clearly the perception of crime and criminals differ from the strict interpretation of the law. So yes, IMO, there are 'real' criminals. I'm sure a case can be made out in defamation if u were to go around the village calling your neighbour a criminal, notwithstanding what the law says. Know why? Cos the court recognises that there is a line between being guilty of a misdeameanour, and being convicted of a felony. One attracts the title criminal, and the other doesnt....in the real world.

And syl, so happy that somewhere in your mind, its ok to contradict yourself and still come out thinking u made a logical argument.

[Gagamell]

Ahhh but Gags, sadly, I dont concur. The above post was to ensure we were starting from the same page.
I mean, sure the letter of the law says we're all criminals but when u get one of those character certificate thingys from the police saying u're not a criminal, whats does that mean exactly?
Clearly the perception of crime and criminals differ from the strict interpretation of the law. So yes, IMO, there are 'real' criminals. I'm sure a case can be made out in defamation if u were to go around the village calling your neighbour a criminal, notwithstanding what the law says. Know why? Cos the court recognises that there is a line between being guilty of a misdeameanour, and being convicted of a felony. One attracts the title criminal, and the other doesnt....in the real world.

And syl, so happy that somewhere in your mind, its ok to contradict yourself and still come out thinking u made a logical argument.

You missing the point Amelia, it's still a crime. And if you don't concur then you're not reading right. If I kill someone, I get my certificate of character is adjusted accordinly by the law officers and I would probably spend a considerable amount of time in prison if not all my life. Both the amendment of my character and the prison sentence are the 'consequences' of that crime.

If I litter however, and a police officer decides to 'actually' do his job I can be charged, and most likely fined. If it's a case where my littering caused severe adverse effects to the environment I can be imprisoned. The fine or imprisonment for littering is also the 'consequence' of committing the said crime. That my dear is the point! Differences in convictions yes, defintion..no it's the same, a crime is a crime, it's an act or ommission contrary to that which is law.

The mere fact we don't walk around calling uncle bob next door a criminal because we saw him throw a chubby bottle in the drain is due to society's 'understanding' of the various consequences and the severity of differing crimes, but irrespective of that exception it doesn't change the fact that it's a crime.

Right most of us call our friends who smoke 'smokers', we rarely if ever walk around the place calling them a 'substance abuser', that's because we distinguish between the severity of a cigarette smoker and a cocaine addict or a chronic alcoholic. It doesn't change the fact that all of the above are substance abusers does it? So why should it be different with other definitions such as crimes?

[Gagamell]

I agree with AMELIA for agreeing with CITIZEN. The punishment may differ markedly, but that's not the argument being made on this thread. If i fall asleep at the wheel of my vehicle, and kill a pedestrian. That's called an accident. If i am standing at a bus stop, and a bus hit me, and i suffer only minor bruises, it's also called an accident. ORR, the latter is a little accident, and the former a big accident. GUILLINA cleaned up NY by focusing on the little crime( he called it quality of life) like jay walking, drinking from a beer can that's exposed, occupying more than one seat on the subway(putting your bag on a seat), and other little crimes that seemed insignificant to the general public. But we all know as a result of that NY is now classified as one of the safest large cicties in the US. When people repeatedly escape being caught for small crimes, the temptaion for committing big crimes increases by leaps and bounds. The criminals leaping, and the citizens bound by the crimes.

DANCERBOY

Couldn't have said it better.

[Double Trouble]

Gaga,

Calm dong nah man! Why yuh getting so upset? Here is a hint for yuh. You must always zero in on the "key" word and in this discussion it's "disproportionate" as in way outta whack. Disproportionate does not apply to the prison population in India because the majority of the inmates are Indians. The prison population could be 99.99% Indians and that would be a normal condition. As for Cambodia, Fiji, Japan etc, how many Africans are represented in their general population? That argument is sheer nonsense and you should know it.

P.S. You are making yourself out to be an enormous bore when you cry racism to combat facts.

First things first, you haven't provided any facts. Secondly the word disproportionate could either mean relatively too small or too large. So how come it's disproportionate with regards to afro prison population but it does not apply to other races irrespective of location? You trying to play games with words, but hear what, find some other sucker to fool ok?

Gaga,

You've lost me! Facts about what? As for the word "disproportionate", I am fully aware of the meaning. In the context of this discussion, you should know by now that "too small" does not fit the equation. Now go back and think about it some more, even though you may get ah headache. Indians make up the vast majority of the population in India, so any race but Indians with the majority in an Indian prison, will be considered disproportionate to the prison population. So, I am not trying to fool you or any other sucker.

[Double Trouble]

Ahhh but Gags, sadly, I dont concur. The above post was to ensure we were starting from the same page.
I mean, sure the letter of the law says we're all criminals but when u get one of those character certificate thingys from the police saying u're not a criminal, whats does that mean exactly?
Clearly the perception of crime and criminals differ from the strict interpretation of the law. So yes, IMO, there are 'real' criminals. I'm sure a case can be made out in defamation if u were to go around the village calling your neighbour a criminal, notwithstanding what the law says. Know why? Cos the court recognises that there is a line between being guilty of a misdeameanour, and being convicted of a felony. One attracts the title criminal, and the other doesnt....in the real world.

And syl, so happy that somewhere in your mind, its ok to contradict yourself and still come out thinking u made a logical argument.

You missing the point Amelia, it's still a crime. And if you don't concur then you're not reading right. If I kill someone, I get my certificate of character is adjusted accordinly by the law officers and I would probably spend a considerable amount of time in prison if not all my life. Both the amendment of my character and the prison sentence are the 'consequences' of that crime.

If I litter however, and a police officer decides to 'actually' do his job I can be charged, and most likely fined. If it's a case where my littering caused severe adverse effects to the environment I can be imprisoned. The fine or imprisonment for littering is also the 'consequence' of committing the said crime. That my dear is the point! Differences in convictions yes, defintion..no it's the same, a crime is a crime, it's an act or ommission contrary to that which is law.

The mere fact we don't walk around calling uncle bob next door a criminal because we saw him throw a chubby bottle in the drain is due to society's 'understanding' of the various consequences and the severity of differing crimes, but irrespective of that exception it doesn't change the fact that it's a crime.

Right most of us call our friends who smoke 'smokers', we rarely if ever walk around the place calling them a 'substance abuser', that's because we distinguish between the severity of a cigarette smoker and a cocaine addict or a chronic alcoholic. It doesn't change the fact that all of the above are substance abusers does it? So why should it be different with other definitions such as crimes?

Semantics!

[Double Trouble]

Illegal vending as the term suggests is against the law but are these "real" criminals? As a side note, what a waste of police resources, in these times of rampant violence.

[Amelia]

Perhaps I am missing the point Gags. :|

Help meh out. The topic is, what is a 'real criminal'.

There's one school of thought led by your able self (since syl's contradictory statements cause him to run away :twisted: ) who argues that crime is crime so we are all criminals once we commit a crime. Period.

There is citizen and I on the other side who saying that while a crime is a crime, even the courts recognise that not everyone is a criminal. (thus the defamation point and the certificate of good character point - if everyone was a criminal, these examples of inconsistency of application would not exist.)

Hence, while u say that there is no such thing as a 'real criminal' and we are all equal fiends under the law, we say that there is such a thing as a 'real criminal' and I, for example, aint it.

[Gagamell]

[quote="Double Trouble":2uvb523j]
Gaga,

Calm dong nah man! Why yuh getting so upset? Here is a hint for yuh. You must always zero in on the "key" word and in this discussion it's "disproportionate" as in way outta whack. Disproportionate does not apply to the prison population in India because the majority of the inmates are Indians. The prison population could be 99.99% Indians and that would be a normal condition. As for Cambodia, Fiji, Japan etc, how many Africans are represented in their general population? That argument is sheer nonsense and you should know it.

P.S. You are making yourself out to be an enormous bore when you cry racism to combat facts.

First things first, you haven't provided any facts. Secondly the word disproportionate could either mean relatively too small or too large. So how come it's disproportionate with regards to afro prison population but it does not apply to other races irrespective of location? You trying to play games with words, but hear what, find some other sucker to fool ok?

Gaga,

You've lost me! Facts about what? As for the word "disproportionate", I am fully aware of the meaning. In the context of this discussion, you should know by now that "too small" does not fit the equation. Now go back and think about it some more, even though you may get ah headache. Indians make up the vast majority of the population in India, so any race but Indians with the majority in an Indian prison, will be considered disproportionate to the prison population. So, I am not trying to fool you or any other sucker.[/quote:2uvb523j]

You still not making any sense. Even if afros make up the majority of inmates in Trinidad, a country of 1.3 million, how come it's disproportionate? Afros are the second largest population in this country, yuh don't think commonsense would dictate that the largest ethnic group in prison will either be Indos or Afros? You know Indos make up the second largest group in our prisons right? So what the hell exactly is yuh point? When you have India with such a vast population and over crowding prisons? Are those Indians in India not of criminal intent? Does location matter?

[Gagamell]

Perhaps I am missing the point Gags. :|

Help meh out. The topic is, what is a 'real criminal'.

There's one school of thought led by your able self (since syl's contradictory statements cause him to run away :twisted: ) who argues that crime is crime so we are all criminals once we commit a crime. Period.

There is citizen and I on the other side who saying that while a crime is a crime, even the courts recognise that not everyone is a criminal. (thus the defamation point and the certificate of good character point - if everyone was a criminal, these examples of inconsistency of application would not exist.)

Hence, while u say that there is no such thing as a 'real criminal' and we are all equal fiends under the law, we say that there is such a thing as a 'real criminal' and I, for example, aint it.

First of all if you're lost then it's only due to your own inability of not being able to follow the direction of the discussion. Intially the discussion was not about the definition of the word crime per se, but about the desire by some to demonise a particular race for a crime while making excuses for other races committing the same crime. This whole assessment about the legal defnition of 'crime' is a by product of the original discussion. Please go back to the top.

Secondly the court's duty is not to recognise who is a criminal and that line of thinking demonstrates a catastrophic misunderstanding of the function and purpose of judicial courts. The courts purpose is to indentify if a breach of law occured, the judges/magistrates do not demean and belittle anyone, not even a murderer by saying you are a 'criminal' when they are found guilty. The media and the general public tend to use the word 'criminal' when discussing severe felonies and for reasons I already addressed in a subsequent post. Your certificate of character when committing a serious crime is not to 'identify' anyone as a criminal, it's main purpose is for record keeping of an offence by law officers and the court, especially in the case of repeat offenders. And the logic behind that is due to what I mentioned in my afore mentioned posts, the differences in the severity of various crimes.

It is the state's opinion that future employers and the public in general have a right to know if an individual committed a grievious offence, it is for the protection of others, not for the defamation of the individual even if it may appear to be so. Do you know that in some states in America some employers even take it into consideration if a potential employee has been found guilty of traffick offences?

[Gagamell]

Semantics!

I'm so pleased to note that i have been able to reduce your BS to one word per post. At this rate I might be able to shut you up all together and spare the other members of this forum the pain of having to read your prose of bigotry. :roll:

[Double Trouble]

Gaga,

Calm dong nah man! Why yuh getting so upset? Here is a hint for yuh. You must always zero in on the "key" word and in this discussion it's "disproportionate" as in way outta whack. Disproportionate does not apply to the prison population in India because the majority of the inmates are Indians. The prison population could be 99.99% Indians and that would be a normal condition. As for Cambodia, Fiji, Japan etc, how many Africans are represented in their general population? That argument is sheer nonsense and you should know it.

P.S. You are making yourself out to be an enormous bore when you cry racism to combat facts.

First things first, you haven't provided any facts. Secondly the word disproportionate could either mean relatively too small or too large. So how come it's disproportionate with regards to afro prison population but it does not apply to other races irrespective of location? You trying to play games with words, but hear what, find some other sucker to fool ok?[/quote]

Gaga,

You've lost me! Facts about what? As for the word "disproportionate", I am fully aware of the meaning. In the context of this discussion, you should know by now that "too small" does not fit the equation. Now go back and think about it some more, even though you may get ah headache. Indians make up the vast majority of the population in India, so any race but Indians with the majority in an Indian prison, will be considered disproportionate to the prison population. So, I am not trying to fool you or any other sucker.[/quote]

You still not making any sense. Even if afros make up the majority of inmates in Trinidad, a country of 1.3 million, how come it's disproportionate? Afros are the second largest population in this country, yuh don't think commonsense would dictate that the largest ethnic group in prison will either be Indos or Afros? You know Indos make up the second largest group in our prisons right? So what the hell exactly is yuh point? When you have India with such a vast population and over crowding prisons? Are those Indians in India not of criminal intent? Does location matter?[/quote]

Gaga,

You are a laugh a second! Yeah, I am laughing at you. This is what I said....... "However, how do you explain the disproportionate number of brothers incarcerated in prisons around the world? Is there a conspiracy, in your opinion, to make Blacks appear more violent than they are in real life?"

Again I have to point out the "key" word to you. This time the key world is "world" not Trinidad. Focus man! Focus! Since you brought up Trinidad, let us take a moment to examine the numbers. Would you agree that African-Trinis make up approx 40% of the population? Based on media reports, would you say Afro-Trinis are doing 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70% or more of the violent crimes in T&T? At what percentage would you agree, that crime / incarceration is disproportionate, based on the current 40% size of the population?

[Amelia]

Gags and DT, while I loathe to interrupt your lovefest, I just thought I'd add something that may aid in furthering your discussion. There are lots of really helpful stats in the article.


The race industry and its elite enablers take it as self-evident that high black incarceration rates result from discrimination. At a presidential primary debate this Martin Luther King Day, for instance, Senator Barack Obama charged that blacks and whites “are arrested at very different rates, are convicted at very different rates, [and] receive very different sentences . . . for the same crime.” Not to be outdone, Senator Hillary Clinton promptly denounced the “disgrace of a criminal-justice system that incarcerates so many more African-Americans proportionately than whites.”

If a listener didn’t know anything about crime, such charges of disparate treatment might seem plausible. After all, in 2006, blacks were 37.5 percent of all state and federal prisoners, though they’re under 13 percent of the national population. About one in 33 black men was in prison in 2006, compared with one in 205 white men and one in 79 Hispanic men. Eleven percent of all black males between the ages of 20 and 34 are in prison or jail. The dramatic rise in the prison and jail population over the last three decades—to 2.3 million people at the end of 2007 (see box)—has only amplified the racial accusations against the criminal-justice system.
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_2_c ... ystem.html (http://www.city-journal.org/2008/18_2_criminal_justice_system.html)

[Amelia]

It seems, judging from past threads, that there is a general recognition that our black youth are an 'at risk' group.

I think it was a couple years ago that Rowley suggested that special measures be put in place wrt to university admissions, targetting young black men, encouraging them to stay in school. These proposals stemmed from the recognition that something must be done to help our black youth, esp the men. Yet there was a great uproar about racial discrimination by the govt.

[snowbird]

It seems, judging from past threads, that there is a general recognition that our black youth are an 'at risk' group.

I think it was a couple years ago that Rowley suggested that special measures be put in place wrt to university admissions, targetting young black men, encouraging them to stay in school. These proposals stemmed from the recognition that something must be done to help our black youth, esp the men. Yet there was a great uproar about racial discrimination by the govt.

Amelia, the answer to the problem is not 'making it easier' for a certain group, isn't that what got T&T into trouble in the first place. The answer is setting 'one standard' for all then assisting 'everyone' to meet that standard. Right now if a certain demographic can handle the standard that is set, and another demographic can't, then you've got to find a way to bring the failing demographic up to par you don't lower the bar.

[Gagamell]

Again I have to point out the "key" word to you. This time the key world is "world" not Trinidad. Focus man! Focus! Since you brought up Trinidad, let us take a moment to examine the numbers. Would you agree that African-Trinis make up approx 40% of the population? Based on media reports, would you say Afro-Trinis are doing 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70% or more of the violent crimes in T&T? At what percentage would you agree, that crime / incarceration is disproportionate, based on the current 40% size of the population?

I am focused, and if you were smart, based upon global prison trends you would know that you'd quicker get away with trying to bs us by saying the prison population of afros in Trinidad is disproportionate as opposed to the prison population around the world. Because current global trends of prison populations will show the direct opposite of that which you propose so what the hell exactly is your point? :roll:

This thing about Afros doing 10%,20% etc of crimes in Trinidad is what is known as SEMANTICS! It's irrelevant. Besides you quicker get away with a bs argument like that if you narrow your 'racist' assumptions to say the percentage of Afros living in a crime hot spot, rather than base your percentage of Afros committing crimes upon the entire afro population of T&T. Because whether you want to admit it or not, it is only a small amount of afros committing violent crimes in Trinidad, and one can even go further and state that it's only a small amount of afros committing violent crimes within the crime hot spots, hence most violent crimes are concentrated in a few selected areas.

Based upon the current Afro population, one can safely assume that it is only about 1% of that population committing violent crimes in T&T.

[dancerboy]

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl ... =161365315 (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161365315)



I wonder what would have happend had these youngsters been from lavantee or movant.

dancerboy

[Double Trouble]

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161365315



I wonder what would have happend had these youngsters been from lavantee or movant.

dancerboy

They would have gotten bail also but without the news coverage.

[dancerboy]

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161365315



I wonder what would have happend had these youngsters been from lavantee or movant.

dancerboy

They would have gotten bail also but without the news coverage. If there were no news coverage, how would have known that they got bail ?

DANCERBOY

[Double Trouble]

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161365315



I wonder what would have happend had these youngsters been from lavantee or movant.

dancerboy

They would have gotten bail also but without the news coverage. If there were no news coverage, how would have known that they got bail ?

DANCERBOY

Dancer,

The most hardened and often repeat offender, usually can get bail in T&T. Look at how Abu Bakr, T&T's most notorious mass murderer ordered a hit on two of his guys and was released on $250,000.00 bail. Manning's DPP and police didn't even take away Bakr's passport during the process. On the other hand, they demanded $750,000.00 each for the Pandays. Imagine that!

[Double Trouble]

Again I have to point out the "key" word to you. This time the key world is "world" not Trinidad. Focus man! Focus! Since you brought up Trinidad, let us take a moment to examine the numbers. Would you agree that African-Trinis make up approx 40% of the population? Based on media reports, would you say Afro-Trinis are doing 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70% or more of the violent crimes in T&T? At what percentage would you agree, that crime / incarceration is disproportionate, based on the current 40% size of the population?

I am focused, and if you were smart, based upon global prison trends you would know that you'd quicker get away with trying to bs us by saying the prison population of afros in Trinidad is disproportionate as opposed to the prison population around the world. Because current global trends of prison populations will show the direct opposite of that which you propose so what the hell exactly is your point? :roll:

This thing about Afros doing 10%,20% etc of crimes in Trinidad is what is known as SEMANTICS! It's irrelevant. Besides you quicker get away with a bs argument like that if you narrow your 'racist' assumptions to say the percentage of Afros living in a crime hot spot, rather than base your percentage of Afros committing crimes upon the entire afro population of T&T. Because whether you want to admit it or not, it is only a small amount of afros committing violent crimes in Trinidad, and one can even go further and state that it's only a small amount of afros committing violent crimes within the crime hot spots, hence most violent crimes are concentrated in a few selected areas.

Based upon the current Afro population, one can safely assume that it is only about 1% of that population committing violent crimes in T&T.


Gaga,

All yuh light on but nobody's at home! Look man, it doesn't matter if it's 0.01% of the population, it's the percentage of the total crimes being done by that 0.01%