Cadiz on the soapbox

[Dispatcher]

Here are some quotes from Cadiz taken from an interview with Clevon Raphael: http://www.guardian.co.tt/news7.html

...I think the whole concept of the Alliance is a good one.

the main thing is that we got the Alliance going and in hindsight when you look at it, they could put pull it off.

Well, Mr Panday is a well-experienced politician, and I will say you have to be equal to Mr Panday to deal with Mr Panday. I would never embarrass myself to claim that I would ever be his equal in the tough world of politics. He is a career politician and has his way of doing things, and I guess we need to respect that.


The only disappointing thing is that the way we were going was the right way for the country and I still think it could work. Getting it right, of course, is going to be the trick in the trade.

I think the Alliance is strong enough to stand on its own, and I guess we have to wait on the night of November 5 to see the results.

I think anybody who thinks going into this election without the UNC…that they can win is wishful thinking. The UNC is alive and well, it is a powerful organisation and there is a substantial group of voters who are still in the party.


And asked if "Manning —could be disastrous for the country?"

Yes. Of course, Clevon. We don’t have to search to see clear evidence of where he intends to carry this country, if he retains office.

But I have faith in the people to do the right thing on November 5, and save this country from being taken down a path we would all regret.
=======================

I don't understand this man. If he feels the Alliance has a good chance, he thinks PNM will lead to disaster and that the COP don't stand a chance, then why not for the good of the country work within the Alliance and try and make the change he so desperately seeks?

[BW]

I don't understand this man. If he feels the Alliance has a good chance, he thinks PNM will lead to disaster and that the COP don't stand a chance, then why not for the good of the country work within the Alliance and try and make the change he so desperately seeks?

Why? I'll tell you why--- I have a feeling that most COP supporters, after all the ole talk and propganda, are willing to accept a PNM victory.

They can bawl "COP winning in a landslide" all they want; it's their actions that count. They know that voting for the COP will just give more power to the PNM, and ladies and gentlemen, many are willing do just that!

[Sirius]

I don't understand this man. If he feels the Alliance has a good chance, he thinks PNM will lead to disaster and that the COP don't stand a chance, then why not for the good of the country work within the Alliance and try and make the change he so desperately seeks?

Why? I'll tell you why--- I have a feeling that most COP supporters, after all the ole talk and propganda, are willing to accept a PNM victory.

They can bawl "COP winning in a landslide" all they want; it's their actions that count. They know that voting for the COP will just give more power to the PNM, and ladies and gentlemen, many are willing do just that!

Or perhaps many of us are simply willing to lose standing up for what we believe is right rather than betray our conscience by choosing between the better of two evils. I know my stance: I don't want the likes of Manning or Panday at the helm and I do not wish to look back and think that my vote was stamped next to their respective parties. The rest of the country have to make their choice as well. The country will get the leadership it deserves; the COP presents a fresh alternative to the old tribal politics and if the nation chooses to reject it then such is the popular choice and they will have to live with it. So will I of course; but at least I did not endorse it.

[Maccogirl]

Or perhaps many of us are simply willing to lose standing up for what we believe is right rather than betray our conscience by choosing between the better of two evils. I know my stance:

Once all of you that know your stance are willing the day after election and PNM ends up with the majority they need to do whatever they want you don't go crying all over the place or look to buy the first ticket out of here. Stand like all of us and endure it go for the long haul till election comes round again, if you are willing to do that then I say make your stance but dam well be prepared to shoulder the blame and burden for doing so. DO NOT RUN TO OTHER PLACE !!!!

[Sirius]

Or perhaps many of us are simply willing to lose standing up for what we believe is right rather than betray our conscience by choosing between the better of two evils. I know my stance:

Once all of you that know your stance are willing the day after election and PNM ends up with the majority they need to do whatever they want you don't go crying all over the place or look to buy the first ticket out of here. Stand like all of us and endure it go for the long haul till election comes round again, if you are willing to do that then I say make your stance but dam well be prepared to shoulder the blame and burden for doing so. DO NOT RUN TO OTHER PLACE !!!!

I have no intention to "run". My stance for leaving the country has always been not until we have gotten to the point of no return or unless an opportunity presents itself that I simply cannot pursue locally - such as my love for aerospace etc. I have always said, if the COP loses out this election then at least they can learn from it and if it is a party worth following then it will be there in 2012 to try again. T&T's "opposition parties" come and go and change form; I am hoping the COP is a step away from that and is one that can become an institution as the PNM has. If it turns out to be like the DLP/ONR/ULF/NAR/CLUB88/UNC/UNCA/ALL THE REST then we are destined to be in PNM hands forever.

The PNM's upcoming constitution is certainly leaning on the dictatorship side of things, but at the same time it is not quite as bad as many make it out to be. We will still have elections, an opposition, etc. It is not a desirable outcome, but it is not one that will land us in destitution or marshal law and it is not one that cannot be reversed. Also considering Manning's moves to date and comparing them with Panday's, I cannot say that Panday in power will be any better. I have always said that an issue for me in T&T politics is that the PNM and UNC are different sides of the same coin. The COP presents me with a different coin and that is a major reason they have my support. I am fed up of rum and roti politics, I am fed up of maximum leaders, I am fed up of uber conservatism, I am fed up of handout mentalities, I am fed up of all these things that keep us down as a third world country that both the PNM and the UNC are guilty of.

I do not see the current situation as the doomsday one these politicians are making it out to be - you know very well that politicians will say what they need to say to get as many votes as possible. It is called scare tactics and I don't fall for it. It is a bad situation but not a doomsday one where we must pick UNCA to prevent a PNM dictatorship. It is a bad one that if Manning returns to power we will have an executive president with a few less checks and balances, but no assurance that it will be any different if it is Panday returning to power. If there is one thing Panday has done over the years is lose my confidence as a voter in him. Were this 1995, I would have voted for him...but not today in 2007 and nobody can show me Panday's track record and recent actions and tell me he is not trying to get another term as Prime Minister and is capable of doing a decent job if he does.

Is that fair enough?

[Maccogirl]

You keep saying the COP present a different side of the coin for you, well I question that. First is it fair to say that because the COP has never won an election or served as government before so all they are offering at this time is a promise to do these "different" things, it may be so or it may be not but that is just what it is a promise of something to come if they win.

Some of the things the COP has been shaky on are they cuss Panday for corruption in the UNC but yet they were all in the party sitting there looking on, they cuss Ramesh for busing files but yet they sat there and said nothing so who is the persons that are honorable the one busing the files or those that sat said nothing and watched on?

They cuss Kamal when Dookeran did not get to give his budget speech saying Kamla set them up but now she is the greatest things, they cuss Manning for bringing Hazel into politics but yet they put up Gary Griffith and his NIcole to run for two seats, same husband and wife team where is the difference?

They cuss the CEPEP program while in opposition now they find there is nothing wrong with it, they promised new faces but all we seeing is a majority of old NAR/ONR persons, the COP have embraced people like Hulie, Devant Marajah people that up to this day have not justified these racial statements, now they add Ramlogan who feels all Panday supporters are backward c***olies.

The COP talk about Ramesh and how he defended the Abu and the boys but turn a blind eye to the fact that Veron De Lima a COP member who is on their crime team according to Dooks defended Dole Chadee

And I can go on and on with my list to show that while you feel they are different or that is the perception the COP will love to give they are not so different at all, what they are showing is hypocritical or they are trying to fool the people. You may not see it that way but that is some of the things I look at and there seems to be a lot more that is not in the line of all the NEW Politics talk and too many to mention here you can do your own research if you like.

To me New Politics was a lie a feel good catch phrase nothing more and if the COP can lie before they ever reach the hall of power I really wonder what they will do if they ever to be given that chance, to me I don't like those odds waiting to find out, so I will take my chance with the UNCA and if they cant make well PNM will so I have no problem with that either .

[cm103]

MG. Some of those points you're making really don't fit int his context. For example, Panday is under corruption charges for failing to declare a bank account he said he didn't knew he had. Well how did you explain your children's apartment and tuition? What that have to do with anyone else in the UNC?

Griffith and Dyer running for their seats. What seat Hazel win?

You keep saying that if the UNC doh make then you ok with the PNM. So why then are you complaining that the COP undermining the UNC vote so the PNM will win?

[JPersad]

All this talk about a vote the COP is ah vote for PNM is desperate UNC propaganda!
The fact of the matter is because of Panday the PNM is in power today .
Not because of Dookeran !
Not because of COP .

Voters should give it some thought before casting their ballots based on ethnic / tribal blind loyalty .

[Sirius]

You keep saying the COP present a different side of the coin for you, well I question that. First is it fair to say that because the COP has never won an election or served as government before so all they are offering at this time is a promise to do these "different" things, it may be so or it may be not but that is just what it is a promise of something to come if they win.

This much is true. What we have are promises. But what gives credibility to these promises is the fact that many of the former UNC performers are now under the COP umbrella. The party has yet to prove itself, I give you that. But several of its key members have already proven themselves under another banner. The other thing is that both the UNC and the PNM have been given office and failed. So I'm willing to give this party a shot.


Some of the things the COP has been shaky on are they cuss Panday for corruption in the UNC but yet they were all in the party sitting there looking on, they cuss Ramesh for busing files but yet they sat there and said nothing so who is the persons that are honorable the one busing the files or those that sat said nothing and watched on?

I think the fact they distanced themselves from Panday and the UNC resolves that issue. That said, how does one cuss Ramesh for bussing files and yet sit there and do nothing? Do you mean to say they sat and did nothing when RLM buss the files, and they cuss him now? If so, I do believe they have not been cussing that RLM buss files, but rather that RLM did break the party once and now is appearing with them as if nothing ever happened. That does stink to high heavens. Either the files RLM buss were false and he mash up the party and now playing happy families, or the files were true and RLM gone back with a set of corrupt people.


They cuss Kamal when Dookeran did not get to give his budget speech saying Kamla set them up but now she is the greatest things, they cuss Manning for bringing Hazel into politics but yet they put up Gary Griffith and his NIcole to run for two seats, same husband and wife team where is the difference?

Yeah they cuss when they didn't get to give the speech, but that was one setta mis-coordination. Kamla has a clean record and the respect of the voters. That is why they want Kamla now. People make mistakes, and I do not think bad coordination for a budget response quite compares to corruption. Your second point is, at least to me silly. Hazel Manning did NOT run for a seat. She was appointed to office. Gary and Nicole are running for office and will be elected or not elected by the populace. You will notice I have no issue with Mikela running for office - because she is putting herself up for election by the populace and not simply being appointed out of the blue by daddy.


They cuss the CEPEP program while in opposition now they find there is nothing wrong with it, they promised new faces but all we seeing is a majority of old NAR/ONR persons, the COP have embraced people like Hulie, Devant Marajah people that up to this day have not justified these racial statements, now they add Ramlogan who feels all Panday supporters are backward c***olies.

I addressed this in another thread. CEPEP is too highly ingrained in our system to simply discard now. Any administration assuming office will simply HAVE to continue CEPEP until enough of the population have proper jobs to not need to fall back on CEPEP. Then and only then can they start downscaling it. They can't waltz into office and knock it off overnight. I have issue with Hulsie and Devant, and I think at the very least they should apologize for what they once said. I am willing however to accept that the party is not perfect and that despite these bad eggs, I believe the party itself is well intentioned. I fully support Mr. Ramlogan.


The COP talk about Ramesh and how he defended the Abu and the boys but turn a blind eye to the fact that Veron De Lima a COP member who is on their crime team according to Dooks defended Dole Chadee

Lawyers are lawyers and they must be objective in who they defend regardless of public opinion. The legal system does not exist just to jail wrongdoers, it also exists to ensure fair delivery of justice. Let COP talk all they want...as I have said they are not perfect. If Ramesh defended Abu and Vernon defended Chadee, well I respect that as long as they did their job objectively as their profession demands.


And I can go on and on with my list to show that while you feel they are different or that is the perception the COP will love to give they are not so different at all, what they are showing is hypocritical or they are trying to fool the people. You may not see it that way but that is some of the things I look at and there seems to be a lot more that is not in the line of all the NEW Politics talk and too many to mention here you can do your own research if you like.

To me New Politics was a lie a feel good catch phrase nothing more and if the COP can lie before they ever reach the hall of power I really wonder what they will do if they ever to be given that chance, to me I don't like those odds waiting to find out, so I will take my chance with the UNCA and if they cant make well PNM will so I have no problem with that either .

I understand where you are coming from but also I ask you to understand that there is a lot different about the COP that is not there in the PNM and UNC. You may see some of it as hypocrisy; I believe that in all parties where different opinions exist from different members this will exist in one form or another. However the COP is the only party to present a detailed plan of how they intend to tackle various issues upon assuming office. The COP is the only party that has been calling out for a public debate on the issues. The COP is the only party that comes off as showing any kind of liberalism. The COP is the only party that has not been resorting to tribal politics. For me, this is all new politics and for all its issues, it is nowhere near the problems that lie within the other parties.


Another thing I wanted to add in my prior post: Do not blame the COP if the PNM wins. Blame the UNCA. Why? The COP was formed because its founding members were fed up of Panday's antics and that of his yes-men. The COP attained a significant following thus weakening the UNC because of this very issue. UNCA supporters will continue to support the UNCA without Panday at the helm. COP supporters will not support the UNCA as long as Panday presides over it. The UNCA has not taken the very step that will either bring about alliance with the COP or return enough disenfranchised voters to ensure victory: That step is to remove one Basdeo Panday. I am not saying remove him as a candidate; but get him out of the leadership role.

If this cannot be done, the lack of unity lies not at the feet of the COP, but the feet of the UNCA. Remember Panday is the reason people followed the COP out of the UNC. If the UNC was under sound leadership then the COP would either have never been formed or would not have had enough following to have any impact on the elections. Put that in Panday pipe and let him smoke it.

[Dispatcher]

The COP was formed because its founding members were fed up of Panday's antics and that of his yes-men. The COP attained a significant following thus weakening the UNC because of this very issue. UNCA supporters will continue to support the UNCA without Panday at the helm. COP supporters will not support the UNCA as long as Panday presides over it. The UNCA has not taken the very step that will either bring about alliance with the COP or return enough disenfranchised voters to ensure victory: That step is to remove one Basdeo Panday. I am not saying remove him as a candidate; but get him out of the leadership role.

You'd have to remove him as a candidate too. COP saying they don't even want to sit round a table and talk to him or Warner. What kind of people is that, that they can't even sit and talk. It shows how small minded and vindictive they are. Not the kind of people you'd want to run a country. How can you work together as a team to run the country if you're such a bitter person that you can't talk to someone offering you an olive branch.


If this cannot be done, the lack of unity lies not at the feet of the COP, but the feet of the UNCA. Remember Panday is the reason people followed the COP out of the UNC.

Really? Not because Dookeran presented a slate of candiates full of recycled ex NAR members that opposed all the UNC stalwarts. And when they did not win a single position on the executive they get vex, Yetming sour grapes on losing the vice chairman. Dookeran even stopped attending Executive meetings and this went on for months until a decision was taken to remove him as leader with a vote of no confidence. And the next day he done ready with party and all the trimmings.

It wasn't Panday. Panday gave the job to a man who just turned around and try to stab him in the back.


If the UNC was under sound leadership then the COP would either have never been formed or would not have had enough following to have any impact on the elections. Put that in Panday pipe and let him smoke it.

The only reason the COP came about was because Dookeran was the leader of the UNC. So you right there was no sound leadership at the time.