Hope Arismandez killer is dead

[rita]

The BEAST is found dead in his cell after all he was on a suicidal watch, I guess faith took a turn on him, but I doubt it that he killed himself I'm sure there is more involved. Anyways he deserve it!

[Huma]

Well this is about to get even more controversial...

[ebony02]

His days were definitely numbered.

But trust me, there are many more like him roaming the streets of Trinidad.

[snowbird]

Good riddance!!! even if it was 'assisted suicide' I still say good riddance.
Save the taxpayers some money :twisted:

[Chicabonita]

I should put this in the thread "Things that made you smile today".

Where did you all hear the news?

[Sirius]

Remember the man never got his trial. It was never established if he was really the killer. Innocent until proven guilty...we should not be calling for the blood of a man whose guilt was never proven.

[snowbird]

Remember the man never got his trial. It was never established if he was really the killer. Innocent until proven guilty...we should not be calling for the blood of a man whose guilt was never proven.

:cry:

Doh worry, if it wasn't him, den who ever killed de little chile cud kill dey self too :twisted:

[Chicabonita]

Remember the man never got his trial. It was never established if he was really the killer. Innocent until proven guilty...we should not be calling for the blood of a man whose guilt was never proven.

Sirius, you are always such a reasonable guy. I enjoy your posts.

True, the guy never got his trial...yet he confessed he killed her AND led the cops to the body.

[Sirius]

Remember the man never got his trial. It was never established if he was really the killer. Innocent until proven guilty...we should not be calling for the blood of a man whose guilt was never proven.

Sirius, you are always such a reasonable guy. I enjoy your posts.

True, the guy never got his trial...yet he confessed he killed her AND led the cops to the body.

I was not aware of that part of the story.

All the same though, all that does is change the reason I don't approve of the blood calls. I never supported the death penalty as I do not believe in eye for an eye. I never cared for the stance of calling for, or being happy for, the death of anyone regardless of what they have done.

[snowbird]

^^^
just curious, are you a Parent yet Sirius?

[Huma]

That is irrelevant.

I'm not much of a supporter of the death penalty either, but if someone killed my child I would definitely want to kill them.

The point is that I wouldn't want the State doing institutionally what I would do while I'm traumatized and enraged. The State is supposed to be above that.

[snowbird]

Sirius? Sirius yuh there?

[Huma]

Ahhh boy...

Maturity: It's all relative.

[rita]

Oh brother what's the fuss about to begin with when Sean Luke was killed, his killers are protected maybe they should be given a free room in manning new house. The lawyers always tell them to say "the devil made me do it".
At the end of the day she was last seen with him.... the man had a violent history, the mother trusted him thought she found love in another man.
I will say it again 90% of abuse and rape of the victims they always know their killers, when I was 24 yrs I might argue of the same thing just for argument sake that someone should be given a secong chance but no ......not rapist and killers.
I am sick of seeing children getting abuse in this country if not by the hands of a trusted stranger...by their own parent. There are sick sick people in this country.
Anyway sirius are you a parent yet????
This country have gone too far everyone is doing whatever they want and getting away with it....I have one son and everyday I fear for his life. He is only 4 yrs old and I have to teach him about the sick people it have out there....

[Sirius]

What does that have to do with it snowbird?

I have always carried two beliefs:
1) There are far worse fates than death
2) None of us has the right to take a life

Spin it however you like; the fact of the matter is the cry for blood is a primitive one with a short term satisfaction that neither punishes the criminal nor provides long term benefit.

How does it punish the criminal? By offering a quick route out? To rely on unproven beliefs in heaven and hell that the criminal will get to reflect on their actions? To lock out the potential benefits that could come through keeping them alive?

Men and women who have to serve their lives behind bars often become different people and their writings and stories inspire others to lead better lives than they did. The long term examination of these people provide insights as to what made them commit the act, thereby providing a basis upon which to preemptively treat others before they too kill someone.

By what virtue do we take the life of another human being? What gives us that right? How do we ever possibly be better than the murderer by stooping to the same low level as the murderer?


Celebrating a person's death has nothing to do with being a parent or not. All it is, is a reminder that we came from savages. We as modern society are supposed to be above that now - or at least striving to rise above it.

Huma makes a good point. One function of the state is to be rational and do the right thing despite our carnal emotions in the heat of a situation. It would be a good thing if individuals could learn to separate emotion from ration on their own and not always need the state to do it for them.

[snowbird]

The reason why I asked is this.
Until I became a Parent, crimes that incuded children got my interest like any other crime, but never stirred the type of passion it has done since having children of my own.

I know it may seem crazy to some, but when I hear the name of a child victim, it just does something to me; I just see these as defenseless victims who probably spent the last minutes of their lives in such anguish, possibly crying out for their parents who were unable to help them.
I should add that this feeling is not just for children that are killed, but for any child victim; in my world there would be the death penalty for anyone who violates a child.

[Muslim_Chick]

they killed him huh......labelled as suicide...hmmmm
those prisoners ppl .....

[Sirius]

And you see, that is the personal emotion talking. It is well accepted that the course of action desired or taken as a result of emotions are seldom the most effective or beneficial over the long term. Wanting revenge in blood because of the atrocity of the crime does not make it the right thing to do. It is a very dangerous thing when our emotions cloud our sense of judgment.

The vast majority of murders stem not from some sort of premeditated action but because in the heat of the moment the killer's better judgment was impaired. Like it or not, accept it or not, the primal cry for blood is little different in its fundamental nature to what caused the murder in the first place. How is one being better than the murderer by doing that?

[guyguy]

The BEAST is found dead in his cell after all he was on a suicidal watch, I guess faith took a turn on him, but I doubt it that he killed himself I'm sure there is more involved. Anyways he deserve it!
T&T has hit a new low! Mob mentality has taken over. Lawlessness has truly pervaded the land. A man is murdered, while in protective custody, without having the right of any citizen in a Democratic society to a fair trial. He is tried and convicted and executed by the mob! Whether or not he is guilty is irrelevant. What is relevant is that the law be followed. This is remiscent of the days when White Americans lynched Black Americans.

Trinidadians no longer have the right to critize ANY nation for their human rights violations or atrocities. You just surrendered that right!

Shame ... shame ... shame ... shame.... May God forgive you your sin!

[snowbird]

Oh I agree with you Sirius 100%; however my take on the subject is; once you've committed that type of a crime you have relinquished your right to be treated in any other way than the way you have treated your victim; yes, it is an eye for an eye, but I feel strongly that it is justified; you've in effect designed your demise.
I also believe, honestly, some of these criminals do not speak our language so if we are going to use punishments as a deterrent (and I think we should), then we've got to speak to them in a language they understand.

[Huma]

Sirius, remember that the main thing here is not the death penalty, but the fact that the sentence was meted out before a trial even took place.

Who knows what Mr Man coulda reveal. People already looking warily at the way the mother dolled up the child and involved herself with a less than savory younger character...it would have been very interesting to hear some more of what Hope's life was like and what other mistakes led up to this situation. People could have learned some lessons from this case.

But it's easier to amputate the limb than to sit down and hear about how and why the infection happened.

Doh talk about the precedent set. Now that the public's been sated, can we expect a trend like this to start?

I surprised the third-worlders hadda actually be arguing in favor of something as simple as due process.

[Sirius]

True Huma, very true. But the death penalty issue is closely related in this regard as not only are people prosecuting the man before the process of a due trial was provided, but they are calling for/celebrating the death of said man.

So it really is two issues at play here:

1) Passing judgment on the man before a trial was ever given. This violates the tenant of innocent until proven guilty. Aside from the man having been able to provide a lot of information over the circumstances had he got a chance to a hearing, it is also entirely possible that there were circumstances at play that we have no idea about. It is not unprecedented for people to confess to something they never did.

2) Calling for - or in this specific case celebrating - the death of a man. Horrible not only because it is being ignored that it happened in what is supposed to be protective custody, but because it opens the door to a whole host of issues of which I have barely scratched the surface of.

[Huma]

I don't think passing personal judgment on him is wrong given the fact that he confessed and led police to the body. The lack of regard for due process, though...

Anyway, here's some more information for us to base this discussion on. Apparently it's a suicide:

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl ... =161331372 (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161331372)



SUNIL ALI, the man charged for the murder of eight-year-old Hope Arismandez, was found hanging in his cell at the Golden Grove Prison in Arouca shortly before 6.30 p.m. yesterday. (See Page 4)

Prison sources said that Ali, 28, was found hanging from a line in the cell and bleeding from one of his wrists, which had been slit.

He had spent his first night at the top security Remand Section of the prison in isolation from other inmates, amid threats that he would more than likely receive "natural justice immediately" if allowed into the general population, a prison officer told the Express yesterday.

Speaking on a condition of anonymity earlier, the officer said Ali had been under suicide watch by the authorities since his arrival there on Thursday evening, since his life was considered "under threat" and because of the "intense stress" he had been under since he was arrested.

"We will not leave him down there (amid general population)...at all, at all, at all. Yuh mad! The Commissioner of Prisons cannot afford for anything to happen to this man. Not on our watch," he said.



I'm not doubting the Police, because Sean Luke and Amy Emily's killers are still alive. So most likely this guy really killed himself.

Most likely.

[snowbird]

O.K. Sirius, Huma, given how many children have been subjected to gruesom murders in Trinidad in the last little while, do you think that having the details of one more exposed in court, would change anything? It's like saying, well maybe if we hold an inquest into some unfortunate occourance, we will all learn something from it and hopefully it will never happen again; the truth is the intent is one thing, but reality is quite another.

[guyguy]

So Huma,
How does a prisoner under suicide watch manage to slit his wrist, hang himself and bleed to death without being seen? Or did he first hand himself then slit his wrist? Wasn't he being watched by the prison officers? If he was, wouldn't they have had plenty of time to unlock the cell and stop the bleeding and cut him down? Or, were the officers watching him as he slit his wrist then hung himself? I don't get it.

[Huma]

In light of this suicide confirmation, at least one of the replies in this thread can now be deemed (even more) overblown and hilarious.

guyguy, a suicide watch doesn't mean that someone is literally watching you constantly while you're in the cell. It means that you're confined in a manner most appropriate to your state of mind. They probably took away his shoelaces and sheets but not his pants, or some other oversight. Officers will check in with you every now and then, more often than regular prisoners. That's the procedure all over.

The police should have done a better job of taking away potential suicide tools. Reminds me of this little incident here (http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/interrogate.asp). Warning...DO NOT watch that video in work, in front of kids, or if you're easily scared.

[Sirius]

You've missed the point.

Do you think he just randomly decided to kill the girl? Don't you think that if anything could be learned of the circumstances, it could raise awareness and prevent another similar murder from occuring? Psychiatrists and lawyers would have a documented case to work with. Civil workers and even the common man or woman down the street would become more aware of early signs of a developing situation.

All this of course is completely against the fact that due process never got a chance to play out. The man was in protective custody! He was due to appear in court and have his guaranteed trial under the tenants of a fair society. The fact that people are happily ignoring this is setting a very, very dangerous precedent. Have you heard of the concept of the slippery slope?

Whether it was suicide or murder by inmates is irrelevant. Something failed somewhere, a life awaiting fair trial was ended while in protective custody and people are celebrating. We truly breed our own criminals.

[Huma]

O.K. Sirius, Huma, given how many children have been subjected to gruesom murders in Trinidad in the last little while, do you think that having the details of one more exposed in court, would change anything? It's like saying, well maybe if we hold an inquest into some unfortunate occourance, we will all learn something from it and hopefully it will never happen again; the truth is the intent is one thing, but reality is quite another.

Yeah, I think so.

I think the country needs to know the full story behind those two boys who killed Sean Luke. the reality of their upbringing will sensitize people. If not the people who need the info the most, it will help those who have to interact with them or those who are empowered to help them.

We need to know about the mistakes made in the living arrangements of women like Amy Emily and Hope's mother. I see that sort of situation all the time, and there are other aspects of the compromises these women make that would shock some of you.

Information helps. These cases will make a difference on some level.

And either way, ***? The law is there for a good reason and needs to be respected.

[guyguy]

In light of this suicide confirmation, at least one of the replies in this thread can now be deemed (even more) overblown and hilarious.

guyguy, a suicide watch doesn't mean that someone is literally watching you constantly while you're in the cell. It means that you're confined in a manner most appropriate to your state of mind. They probably took away his shoelaces and sheets but not his pants, or some other oversight. Officers will check in with you every now and then, more often than regular prisoners. That's the procedure all over.

The police should have done a better job of taking away potential suicide tools.
Well pal, I work in hospitals and when we have a patient under suicide watch, that patient is literally being watched 24/7. And, if all a suicide watch in T&T means that they take away any potential instruments with which a person can commit suicide then leave them alone, then we have a very long way to go. BTW; I agree with you regarding due process. That's my contention. Seems that there was none in this case and there was no intention of there being any otherwise, he would've been watched more closely. There is no way that this guy could commit suicide that quickly without being detected. Seems like he was allowed to commit suicide - another conspiracy theory for snowbird. Still, mob mentality!

[guyguy]

You've missed the point.

Do you think he just randomly decided to kill the girl? Don't you think that if anything could be learned of the circumstances, it could raise awareness and prevent another similar murder from occuring? Psychiatrists and lawyers would have a documented case to work with. Civil workers and even the common man or woman down the street would become more aware of early signs of a developing situation.

All this of course is completely against the fact that due process never got a chance to play out. The man was in protective custody! He was due to appear in court and have his guaranteed trial under the tenants of a fair society. The fact that people are happily ignoring this is setting a very, very dangerous precedent. Have you heard of the concept of the slippery slope?

Whether it was suicide or murder by inmates is irrelevant. Something failed somewhere, a life awaiting fair trial was ended while in protective custody and people are celebrating. We truly breed our own criminals.
Sirius,
Why you trying to talk sense to the senseless? Eh?

[Huma]

And, if all a suicide watch in T&T means that they take away any potential instruments with which a person can commit suicide then leave them alone, then we have a very long way to go.

Seems like just about everywhere has a long way to go.

http://www.slate.com/id/2133393/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_watch


What happens when an inmate is put on suicide watch?

He's put in an observation room and kept away from dangerous objects. Suicide watch is mostly designed to prevent hanging, which is far and away the most common suicide method in prisons and hospitals. An observation room might have little more than a mattress on the floor. Any stray bits of fabric could be used as a noose: Some states make sure the inmate sleeps with an extra-thick blanket that can't be tied or torn into strips. In extreme cases, a prisoner may be undressed and given a paper gown.

Even if a suicidal prisoner does manage to tie something around his neck, he won't be able to hang himself unless he has somewhere to tie the other end. Rooms are designed without any protrusions from the ceiling, walls, or furniture. Window cages, sprinkler heads, and bunk handles all pose problems. Even bars set low to the ground could be dangerous—an inmate might get on his knees and strangle himself by thrusting his weight forward all at once.

Many suicide-watch rooms have 24-hour video surveillance, but prison staff must also perform routine, in-person checks. Depending on the level of risk—as determined by prison psychiatrists—nurses or corrections officers might drop by once per half-hour or 15 minutes on average.

Intermittent checks may not give staffers enough time to stop a suicide attempt, since it takes only four or five minutes to hang yourself. In some states, inmates deemed to be at "acute risk" are given continuous supervision—someone is watching them every minute of every day. This designation is typically reserved for those who seem both inclined to commit suicide and temporarily unable to control their actions. In a hospital setting, the most extreme situations may call for a "sitter" who will remain within arm's reach of the patient for the duration of the watch.


Different levels of suicide watch exist. I'm sure you know that. The level of suicide watch depends primarily on how at risk the prisoner is deemed to be. In places like St Ann's Hospital, they would take it to the limit from the start. But in the case of a new potentially suicidal prisoner without any confirmed mental illness or history of suicide attempts, only the primary precautions would be taken.

[guyguy]

Different levels of suicide watch exist. I'm sure you know that. Ammm ... nope. The only level of suicide watch I know about is surveillance 24/7. It is assumed that when someone wants to commit suicide that they are seriously going to try to do so by any method at any time under any circumstance. Anything short of 24/7 monitoring is not considered to be a suicide watch for which the hospital can be found liable were the patient to succeed.

[Huma]

Well yuh learn something new today.

[guyguy]

Well yuh learn something new today.
Sure did. A suicide watch in prison is a joke! Thanks for the info.

[michelleleekim]

I think there is more to this man's death. In one newspaper it was reported that he hung himself another, that one of his wrists was slit and even his throat. I don't get it. How in the world did he manage to get the tools to inflict so much hurt on himself that he died? I could understand that he probably used his pants or a sheet to hang himself but... cutting himself? How did he get a sharp tool??? This is so wierd.

Well the fact is, he is dead and gone..I guess he took the easy way out to avoid being clobbered by the rest of the inmates...good riddance!

[gaia]

It is easy for us to call Sunil Ali "beast" and demand justice, and it is even easier to forget that he is a product of our society also. He was once a child and no doubt the victim of abuse, neglect, unwanted etc. Perhaps mentally challanged? If the society was geared to recognize cases such as his we would have less abuse of children and less murders. Thousands of our youths live with daily abuse, neglect, mental poverty, parentless/fatherless etc. What is the society doing to rectify these ills? Are there TV programs teaching young pple the correct concept of parenting? How many single mothers are forced to leave their children with strangers in order to work? How many men accept their responsibilities as parents? Are there organized community activities for children after schools? State registered baby-sitters in every community? Are teachers equipped to read the tell-tale signs on the faces/body language or class performance of the children? Do we recognize children with anti-social behavior. violent tendencies, anger, etc. Come on pple, wake up and join first world consciousness. Its not sky-scrapers and palaces that would pave the way to first world status but the welfare of our pple and the future generations. It is time that we were exposed to programmes that would awaken our consciousness and give us a deep sense of responsibility. There is at least one incident of child abuse reported each week. For a tiny nation, this is too much.Why do pple close their eyes to all the abuse of our children until it is too late and then demand " justice"? Is it because there is no one to make reports to? I know of a so called religious woman in Tobage who " takes care" of unwanted/homeless/parentless children. Unfortunately the only aid she would accept is financial. Furniture, beds, books etc are of no interest to her. A friend of mine, who has lived abroad for many years and is aware of the ills commited against children, suspects that these children are being abused by paedophiles, foreigners. She has good reason to be suspicious and reported the matter to the police. Of course she was ridiculed by the police and no actions were taken to investigate this matter. One day we will describe these children as beast also no doubt. We are not born evil, the society, parents, guardians, teachers, mass media etc traumatize us and create these monsters. Some of us recieve help and become balanced individuals. Others are wise enough to realize that they have a choice, forgive the society and create a positive destiny and move foward, but most remain victims and create more victims when they become parents. What are we as a society doing to make changes?

[Huma]

I think there is more to this man's death. In one newspaper it was reported that he hung himself another, that one of his wrists was slit and even his throat. I don't get it.

One newspaper said that his throat was slit, the other said his wrist was slit. Obviously the throat paper got it wrong.

[syxxi-fux]

Sirus wrote: Remember the man never got his trial. It was never established if he was really the killer. Innocent until proven guilty...we should not be calling for the blood of a man whose guilt was never proven.


http://www.guardian.co.tt/news9.html
Saturday 31st May, 2008

Ali was initially taken into custody when Hope went missing last week Saturday, after a police search of the area.

He confessed while in police custody that he had killed Hope and led the police to her semi-nude body in a canefield at Pierre Road Connector Road in Chaguanas.



My thoughts: If it is true that he took his own life then good riddens. If it's not true and someone else took his life (and he indeed killed that child) will then that's one less killer to worry about. According to reports in the guardian newspapers the family is happy that he is dead but at the same time they feel like he should have rotted in jail. i am indeed sorry for what the family is going through and i pray that they at least feel some level of relief now that this individual is no longer alive.

[snowbird]

It is easy for us to call Sunil Ali "beast" and demand justice, and it is even easier to forget that he is a product of our society also. He was once a child and no doubt the victim of abuse, neglect, unwanted etc. Perhaps mentally challanged? If the society was geared to recognize cases such as his we would have less abuse of children and less murders. Thousands of our youths live with daily abuse, neglect, mental poverty, parentless/fatherless etc. What is the society doing to rectify these ills? Are there TV programs teaching young pple the correct concept of parenting? How many single mothers are forced to leave their children with strangers in order to work? How many men accept their responsibilities as parents? Are there organized community activities for children after schools? State registered baby-sitters in every community? Are teachers equipped to read the tell-tale signs on the faces/body language or class performance of the children? Do we recognize children with anti-social behavior. violent tendencies, anger, etc. Come on pple, wake up and join first world consciousness. Its not sky-scrapers and palaces that would pave the way to first world status but the welfare of our pple and the future generations. It is time that we were exposed to programmes that would awaken our consciousness and give us a deep sense of responsibility. There is at least one incident of child abuse reported each week. For a tiny nation, this is too much.Why do pple close their eyes to all the abuse of our children until it is too late and then demand " justice"? Is it because there is no one to make reports to? I know of a so called religious woman in Tobage who " takes care" of unwanted/homeless/parentless children. Unfortunately the only aid she would accept is financial. Furniture, beds, books etc are of no interest to her. A friend of mine, who has lived abroad for many years and is aware of the ills commited against children, suspects that these children are being abused by paedophiles, foreigners. She has good reason to be suspicious and reported the matter to the police. Of course she was ridiculed by the police and no actions were taken to investigate this matter. One day we will describe these children as beast also no doubt. We are not born evil, the society, parents, guardians, teachers, mass media etc traumatize us and create these monsters. Some of us recieve help and become balanced individuals. Others are wise enough to realize that they have a choice, forgive the society and create a positive destiny and move foward, but most remain victims and create more victims when they become parents. What are we as a society doing to make changes?
While I too concur that children aren't born evil, the fact still remains that he eventually became this monster; just like you have cute little creatures who are born in the forest, nice and clean, but every so often one of them would be infected by another animal with 'rabies'; what's the treatment for the infected animal? Death. This was a rabid animal that had to be destroyed, either by the hands of the state or by some other means; there is no 'cure' for this type of animal.
Now let's concentrate on 'spraying' the whole darm forest to destroy the other rabid animals so that the epidemic can stop.

[syxxi-fux]

good point Snow. good point.

[snowbird]

Well yuh learn something new today.
Sure did. A suicide watch in prison is a joke! Thanks for the info.

Guy, I think it all has to do with manpower; I remember a few years ago a lawyer fella down the street (who fell on hard times), tried to hang himself at home, he was discovered before he could successfully complete the act.

The ambulance took him away to the hospital, he was put on 'suicide watch'. A day later he hung himself in the bathroom of the hospital with a bed-sheet. Obviously, somebody dropped the ball.

[Muslim_Chick]

it was not a suicide...those other prisoners killed him..... :shock: :o :roll:

[Sirius]

Sirus wrote: Remember the man never got his trial. It was never established if he was really the killer. Innocent until proven guilty...we should not be calling for the blood of a man whose guilt was never proven.


http://www.guardian.co.tt/news9.html
Saturday 31st May, 2008

Ali was initially taken into custody when Hope went missing last week Saturday, after a police search of the area.

He confessed while in police custody that he had killed Hope and led the police to her semi-nude body in a canefield at Pierre Road Connector Road in Chaguanas.



My thoughts: If it is true that he took his own life then good riddens. If it's not true and someone else took his life (and he indeed killed that child) will then that's one less killer to worry about. According to reports in the guardian newspapers the family is happy that he is dead but at the same time they feel like he should have rotted in jail. i am indeed sorry for what the family is going through and i pray that they at least feel some level of relief now that this individual is no longer alive.

Take a read at the posts that followed the one you have quoted. I long stated I was not aware that the man confessed and led the police to the body. That said, you have selectively quoted something that really has nothing to do with the point I was making. It does not change that he died in protective custody, nor does it change that by celebrating this death we are being little better than the killer himself. For an explanation of that one, take a look here: viewtopic.php?p=58111#p58111 (http://www.ttonline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58111#p58111) and here: viewtopic.php?p=58126#p58126 (http://www.ttonline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=58126#p58126)

[syxxi-fux]

Sirus said: Take a read at the posts that followed the one you have quoted. I long stated I was not aware that the man confessed and led the police to the body. That said, you have selectively quoted something that really has nothing to do with the point I was making. It does not change that he died in protective custody, nor does it change that by celebrating this death we are being little better than the killer himself.

Okay Sirus. You might have stated so in your following comments but at the same time 'selectively quoting something that really has nothing to do with the point you were making. :roll: '
If I read correctly, you're the one who mentioned that they don't know if he really did it. So that's why I pulled that quote and that quote only from The Guardian. You did correct yourself after your first. :)

They say d guy confess. I wasn't there so I don't know if he said it or not. all I know is what the news says and I'm guessing that's all you know too (until the news says otherwise) unless you talked to the man personally before he 'died' or 'killed himself' or unless you know the victim's family personnally.
My heart goes out to that family. If the man did kill the little child 'good riddens and I'm not putting water in my mouth to say that.' If he didn't do the crime and he killed himself, well that's between him and God now. Either way 2 ppl are dead. One innocent child and one man who's death is 'questionable.'

[Muslim_Chick]

know what they say...NEVER believe everything you read in the newspaper..hehehehehehe :lol:

[Sirius]

A confession and a trial are two different things. By law, a trial must take place confession or no confession. This is done in order to ascertain not only that the confession was a genuine one but also to determine whether the person requires further psychiatric evaluation than simply the court. It is furthermore done to keep with the concept of innocent until proven guilty, and to adhere to the principle that every single human being is entitled to a fair trial with legal representation. That is how we keep innocent people from being persecuted.

Is it not worrisome that someone in the protective security of a prison had the tools available to kill himself? By a combination of a slit throat and hanging, no less? (Guardian article this morning). Isn't it even more worrisome that not only was he able to do it, but nobody noticed and tried to stop him? By extension that this suspect was able to take his own life, he was also capable of taking someone else's in that prison. I'm sure that's a good reason to celebrate.

Do you not think it would have benefited not just the family, but many other future cases for lawyers, psychiatrists, consultants, civil workers, etc. to have a fully documented case of what tripped in his head to make him go through with killing this child?

It is said that people who can kill can do so because they have lost the sense of compassion and respect toward life. Is not calling for and being happy for the death of someone, regardless of their crime little different from what would have made it OK in this man's mind to commit a murder? None of us know the real circumstances, nor will we ever know. The only two people with the answers are dead. Yet, here we are being happy over the fact he killed himself, and in protective custody no less. That is no different to a killer's mindset and be offended if you wish but that is what it boils down to.

A man has died in protective custody, etching yet another scar into our failing justice system. Nobody will ever know the truth because the child and the killer are now both dead. Everybody has lost. Yet, through some sort of primal savagery, the people are jumping for joy over the little bit of blood that has been granted to them.

[syxxi-fux]

Hence the reason I said: If he didn't do the crime and he killed himself, well that's between him and God now. Either way 2 ppl are dead. One innocent child and one man who's death is 'questionable.'

In addition to that: If he did do the crime and someone killed him, then that too is between the person who killed him and God. Right now with the way things going in Trinidad (as far as crime is concerned) we (the public) might never find out what really happened.

It would be nice to know what he - the alledged killer (if he did it) was thinking when he committed this crime. It would be nice to know what he was looking for (certain age group, opportunity); if he planned the whole thing out (stalking this child for days, months etc. to know their whereabouts etc), if he has close connection with someone in their family, if him and a family member got into an argument sometime ago and he just held a grudge (and took it out on their child). It would be nice to know all these things and more. Criminals think way different than we 'so-called normal people' do. Criminals tend to have abusive (verbally, physically etc) background. Criminals think that they only way of survival is to kill another, wound another etc. This incident is just an unfortunate incident.

There are a lot of questions in the air. If he did kill himself: did he know he was guilty and was going to be killed in prison anyway? If he was indeed innocent: why will the police kill an innocent man and potentially go to jail themselves (if who did it was to leak out)......good luck with that.

So many questions. But as you say Sirus, the only ppl that know exactly what happened that day are dead. There is no bringing them back. Regardless of what you, I or anyone else in this panel say.
Alll we can do is blog what we think and have everyone else give their input.

[Sirius]

Indeed, all we can do is give our thoughts. However, sometimes the nature of these thoughts reflect the sort of society we have become, particularly when the savage line of thought comes not from the minority but from the majority.

We have become a society that prefers the immediate satisfaction of seeing a punishment doled out, without caring for a thorough examination of the situation that may prevent similar future incidents. We have become a society of short term satisfaction, and this is evident not only in this case but also in basic things like our spending, educating and parenting habits.

In a developed society, a suspect (yes, by legal definition he is a suspect until the verdict has been passed, confession or no confession!) dying in protective custody (through suicide or murder) would result in a spate of inquiries into all individuals and systems at play. It would be demanded how and why it happened, if it means it can happen again, and how to stop it from happening again.

Instead, the authorities are nicely silent while the leading newspaper carries on its front page in red, " 'That monster won't hurt anyone again' ", and forumites of a national online community express their delight at what has happened and find every excuse under the sun for how it is a good thing worth celebrating.

Perhaps this is just another reason why we are considering developing and not developed.

[Huma]

Sirius, doh lose yuh perspective in the heat of the moment.

In many developed countries, the enquiry into a case like this would be a sham, there would be more than enough papers with sensational headlines voicing similar sentiments to the woman quoted in the Guardian, and online forums would be flooded with congratulatory comments and threads.

Address the issue without falling into the "We so terrible compared to Country X" spiel nah. Yuh were going good before yuh hit that orifice.

[Sirius]

Except for one thing - I haven't actually compared to other countries. I have long said in other threads that we should not compare ourselves with some other country and excuse our shortcomings by their standards. That is no different in this thread.

The "developed nations" of the world still have a long way to go. In a developed society, things should go as I have outlined in my prior post. However, not all developed nations have a fully developed society - remember that.

In many developed nations, at least some media would demand to know what happened, even if not the majority of them. In such nations, an inquiry would be launched immediately, even if it does slip into a sham afterwards. Here, we don't even get that far - placing us comparatively behind them.

However, because theirs slips into a sham, all it means is that in our pursuit to become a developed society, we should immediately conduct the inquiry as they would, but go beyond them by not turning it into a sham.

Call me an idealist. But without ideals to strive for, where would we be?

[Huma]

Nothing wrong with ideals. Just remember that they exist independent of countries, developed or otherwise.

[SSDD]

i am very upset that he got this easy way out. this way was a release too quick, too easy. but, it's always in the hands of God.

[serenity]

I am confused that this man's suicide actually upset ppl, the same ppl I'm sure who would have been calling for him to hang high anyway. Cah please ppl yes!

[Sirius]

If I'm included in that bunch serenity, please note I have always very strongly opposed the death penalty as I believe there are other far better means that are beneficial to all involved and do not stoop us to the same level as the killer. However, it should be quite easy for someone to call for the death penalty and still be upset over the suicide. If you followed the thread you would see it really is about how such an incident could happen in the prison and the impact it has as now nobody will know what happened that day. Not to mention, as was pointed out a confession does not mean guilt and it is far from unprecedented for someone to confess to a crime they did not commit. Due process never played out, nobody will ever know, suicide was committed in a supposedly guarded cell, and that is tragic.

Anyway, I see yesterday the Guardian actually carried a strong article asking how this incident could have occurred in the prison. Good to see that the newspaper actually carried such an article even if it did come late and after the usual sensationalist headline the day before. I would post the link but I can't seem to find it on the new Guardian website. Looks like it's still under construction. :?

[dancerboy]

Remember the man never got his trial. It was never established if he was really the killer. Innocent until proven guilty...we should not be calling for the blood of a man whose guilt was never proven.
Well said. People are responding to their emotions. Judgements are based on reason, not on emotions.


DANCERBOY

[Aloha]

What a Mess in Trinidad! never have there been any brutal crimes like what is
published in the newspapers, like the ones I read online, and by the way! the article
read this; the mother of the murdered child was in a relationship with a man who had
a squatter's house in the area, there are some doubts as to why? and what? really
went down in that case, the child was in the care of this killer when she was killed,
What? can anyone make of this! while it is very sad, a lot is not said about the circumstances
leading up to her child's death. That's part of the main concerns, about this crime.
At this point with no real evidence, it's only an unfortunate death, as for him! he is guilty and
he did what most killers do! take their own lives before the sentence is handed down to them
by the judge and that is; Guilty on all counts, the only difference is an innocent child was the
victim in it. Is the mother accountable somehow? Who knows! but! I have only sympathy for
both her and her child.

[Sirius]

Take a look at the following link. It demonstrates cases where a confession was made to murder but the individual was innocent. Also of note is that not in all cases was the suspect interrogated. Like this man, they confessed, went to jail, and were later found to be innocent:
http://www.normemma.com/artautboy.htm

Furthermore, suicide may be triggered by a great many things, including mental instability. Just as an example (i.e. I'm not saying this is what happened!), how would a mentally unstable man who was supposed to safeguard a child but instead ran across the child's dead body react? Truth is we have no idea whatsoever. But one possibility is he would blame himself, tell the police he killed her and then kill himself.

Now am I saying this man was not the murderer? No; of course not. Some things point in that direction. However, we do not have cold hard evidence. (DNA analysis of the scene, the child's body and the suspect would certainly have gone a long way...)

Am I saying have sympathy for him? Of course not; that's for you to decide if to feel that way. Personally I don't really feel one way or the other about it. Maybe it sounds cold, but I have no involvement in the case and have decided to look at it from a factual perspective.

What do those facts add up to? The facts add up to simply that we don't know. People are running on emotional assumptions and crucifying a dead man. Meanwhile, it will take years, if ever, to ascertain what happened in this case because the lead suspect died behind a secure prison's bars.

[dancerboy]

I am confused that this man's suicide actually upset ppl, the same ppl I'm sure who would have been calling for him to hang high anyway. Cah please ppl yes!
Maybe everyone accused of a heinous crime in T&T should commit suicide. Not only would that solve a lot of the murders but, it would also and strike fear in the minds of would-be-murderers.

DANCERBOY