What's with Mormonism?

[jborg]

A misguided soul recently made a post about the youtube Mormon video accompanied by an inappropriate comment. The thing is I would actually like to know how accurate the description in the video is.
I have seen the "unofficial documentary" and the "South Park" version and I really was surprised at how extreme the claims were. I know South Park to be accurate in their descriptions because I have seen the one they did on "Scientology" and they were not afraid to tell the truth.
The racism aspects disturbed me worst of all, as I previously didn't understand why Americans didn't want a Mormon in the white house.
So is the video correct?
Is that really what Mormons believe?

[Chicabonita]

Like I always say with any religion, if you want to find out what Catholics believe as an example, do you go to unofficial sources? (unless of course you are looking for something else). The media has been going crazy over Warren Jeffs being a mormon and he is not even one. Mormons are all over Trinidad and Afroca if it was a racist religion, would they have black members as they do here? A lot of misinformation out there, so I suggest like in any religious group to go and check their official sources.

[Ray Agostini]

So is the video correct?
Is that really what Mormons believe?

This is a website for black Mormons: http://www.blacklds.org/

And this is my take on some of the problems that linger:

http://spotlightonmormonism.blogspot.co ... acist.html (http://spotlightonmormonism.blogspot.com/2008/04/time-for-lds-church-to-refute-racist.html)

[Babygirl]

So is the video correct?
Is that really what Mormons believe?

This is a website for black Mormons: http://www.blacklds.org/

And this is my take on some of the problems that linger:

http://spotlightonmormonism.blogspot.co ... acist.html (http://spotlightonmormonism.blogspot.com/2008/04/time-for-lds-church-to-refute-racist.html)

Welcome to the forum Ray. My sister-in-law recently moved to Australia...Adelaide to be exact. :)

[Ray Agostini]

Welcome to the forum Ray. My sister-in-law recently moved to Australia...Adelaide to be exact. :)

Thanks. I lived in Adelaide for two years - nice place. It's called "the city of churches". I live about 50 miles south of Sydney now, and have been here since 1974, excepting the two years in Adelaide.

[brag]

The Best Religion

There was once a king who ruled over his subjects well. All his people were happy and his kingdom prospered. One day the King called all the religious heads of his land. Some were well renowned and well versed in Vedas and Puranas and some in the Bible, and yet others in the Koran and other scriptures. When all were gathered together, the King asked, "Oh holy ones! Today, at the request of my subjects, I wish to declare one particular religion as the religion of my land. I leave it to you O learned ones, to decide amongst yourself and to arrive at a unanimous decision as to which religion deserves royal patronage. However I feel only that religion should be chosen whose teachings are not refused by anyone."

Years rolled past, but no decision was taken. Each felt that his religion was the best, but none of the others agreed.

One day a traveling saint arrived in the kingdom. Upon learning about the king's unfulfilled desire, he immediately went up to the king and said "O! Mighty one! I am willing to show you the religion whose teachings nobody can refute."

The king was delighted. At last after long years of waiting an answer was at hand. "Please tell me soon my dear saint. I am impatient. I have waited for many long years." The saint replied "Be patient my king. I shall reveal the name of this religion to you, only at a quiet, secluded spot. Tomorrow at twelve noon, I shall be waiting for you near the banks of the holy River Ganga. We shall go across to the opposite shore and then I will reveal the best religion."

As decided, the saint and the king met at 12 noon the next day. The king ordered a boat to take them across the river. Immediately a boat was brought. Before the king could step inside, the saint expressed the desire to inspect the boat. "No this boat will not do as one wooden plank at the bottom of the boat is loose," he complained.

Another boat was brought. After close inspection, the saint observed that a few nails were missing along the side of the boat. The king ordered another boat to be brought. After close scrutiny, the saint rejected the boat saying that the paint was chipped. This was repeated many tunes over and over again. The king was slowly loosing his patience and could not stand it any longer.

"Respected sir!" he said, "For the past so many hours you have been inspecting one boat after another. You have rejected each one of them. After all, what does it matter whether the paint is chipped or a few nails are missing or a plank is loose? As long as the boat is capable of taking us across the river, I feel that these minor faults should be overlooked."

The saint turned towards the king and smiled. Softly he explained "You have finally discovered that no boat is incapable of taking us across. The religions prevalent in our land are like the boats. Each one of them is capable of taking you to the Lord. To find faults in each other's faith is mere foolishness. Go back to your kingdom and continue to rule wisely, giving each religion as much respect as your own. Live in unity."

The king fell at the saint's feet. When he got up again, he felt himself richer - richer in knowledge and in wisdom, and better able to understand God's plan.

Ram Chugani
Kobe, Japan
rgcjp@yahoo.com

[PB144]

Hi,
Just a little footnote on this subject if anyone is curious. I believe the Mormon movement had its start in the nineteenth century. There were a number of Second Adventist churches that had their beginning in the nineteenth century. A Second Adventist church is any Christian/religious movement concerned with the second coming of Christ. By this definition, the Mormons are basically a Second Adventist church.

What distinguishes all second Adventists is:

(1) They're looking forward to the second coming of Christ.
(2) They're usually outside of the main-stream of churches.
(3) They strongly believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God.

Second Adventists include:
* Church of God Seventh Day (probably)
* Seventh Day Adventists
* Bible Students
* Mormons (possibly)
* Jehovah's Witnesses
* And many others...

[brag]

This is all quite new to me.

[guyguy]

A brief look at the origins of The Mormon Church & Joseph Smith

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints." Definitely a mouthful to say, let alone, to remember. The church, abbreviated as LDS but better known as Mormon because its adherents believe or follow "The Book Of Mormon," originated when Joseph Smith claimed that he had been visited by God and Jesus while praying in a grove of trees.

This "vision" of these two entities told Smith that he had been forgiven of his sins and that he should join none of the current churches since they were sinful and corrupt. He reported his vision to the local minister but ended up being ridiculed by the minister and later, by the community at large. No one was willing to believe that Smith had been visited by God and Jesus, or even had had any type of heavenly vision.

Smith was a hunter or explorer of sorts and during one of his hunting expeditions in New York, he claimed that he had found two golden tablets that were written in a type of hieroglyphics. The "Spirit" moved him and although he had had no formal education in hieroglyphics, he translated the tablets. This was the foundation of The Book of Mormon to which was added the Old and New Testaments. Smith claimed to have shown the gold tablets to two groups of people, one group consisting of eight people who signed a statement stating that they had indeed seen the gold plates, and another consisting of three people who claimed that they too were shown the golden plates by an angel. The testimony of these witnesses is printed in every edition of The Book Of Mormon.

There is a subtle distinction but an important one about the credibility of all eleven witnesses - Three claimed to have been shown the tablets by an angel while eight claim that Joseph Smith showed them the plates himself and that they even handled the plates themselves.

Even more fantastic was Smith's claim that an angel named Moroni, had been protecting the hidden plates that were encased in a box and buried in the hills of Cumorah in Manchester, New York. Moroni, as it turned out, was the son of a pre-Colombian prophet-warrior named Mormon. Both of these people, Smith claimed, had written the plates around 400 BCE.

Smith’s translations spanned a period of several years and occurred in two phases. Phase one consisted of 116 pages that were completed around December 1827 to June 1828. Though he transcribed some of the pages’ characters, he dictated the rest to a man named Martin Harris. Harris was a prosperous farmer and was well respected as an honest man by his community. However, he was also described as a visionary fanatic and even as being crazy. Apparently, most of his neighbours believed that Harris was the possessor of an overactive imagination due to his claim that he too had seen Jesus in the form of a Deer, and had walked and talked to him for several miles.

Regardless of Harris’ nature, the original 116 pages mysteriously disappeared when Harris took them home to show his wife in an effort to convince her of their authenticity. Harris himself was convinced of the authenticity of the plates because he had the presence of mind to write some of the hieroglyphics on a piece of paper which he took to Charles Anton, a professor of linguistics at Columbia University. Despite conflicting versions of their meeting, Harris was even more convinced that the plates were genuine – but not so was Harris’ wife. Her continued opposition and displeasure and disbelief led Smith to engage others to continue the work.

The second phase of translation was completed around July 1829 and the plates were returned to the angel Moroni who, many believe, reburied them in the hills of Cumorah. It is stated that during the translation, Smith would oftentimes dictate to his scribes without looking at the plates themselves, or from a room where the plates were not located, or, would place a barrier, like a curtain, between himself and his scribe while he gazed into a special stone. This stone converted the ancient text into English that Smith would then recite.

Anyway, Smith eventually gathered a following, of whom, Brigham Young was a devout disciple and by 1830, the new scripture had been published and a new church formed. This new church suffered persecution wherever they went, from New York to Missouri to Illinois. A schism developed in the church and one group in Nauvoo published a paper that was highly critical of Joseph Smith. The antagonism caused Smith to have the paper destroyed. Considered an abridgement of Freedom of the Press, Smith was eventually jailed. While in jail, a mob descended on the jailhouse and murdered both Smith and his brother Hyrum, who was also in jail with him.

The successor to Smith, Brigham Young, finally took the remaining flock westward and eventually settled in Utah Territory, which eventually gained Statehood, and became the headquarters of the Mormon Church.

Smith was quite a character indeed. Making claims about visions and angels and golden tablets, and writing a “New” Bible and espousing polygamy. These are things that we may consider outlandish and unbelievable, and unacceptable today.

But before we rush to judgment, let us look back 2000 years ago when the son of a lowly carpenter was conceived by a “supposed” virgin who was visited by an angel to inform Mary and Joseph of the impending birth. A shepherd, and wise men from far off eastern countries, following a star that supposedly led them to a stable, to pay homage to the newborn child.

Jesus' outlandish claims and "miracles" - turning water into wine, feeding 5000 people with five loaves of bread and two fishes, raising Lazarus from the dead? His sermons and parables. His preaching of love and goodwill toward Jews and Gentiles. His forgiveness of sins of the local harlot. His destruction of the moneychangers at the Temple. All of these were revolutionary during his time, and eventually cost him his life.

How about the compilation of the Bible itself, written many years after Jesus' crucifixion and by many people who had never seen Jesus, let alone heard him preach? The compilation of the Bible by a pagan Emperor at the Council of Nicaea that comprised of hundreds of priests and monks from throughout the Roman Empire?

Let us also look further back, to the time of the Israelites being in held bondage in Egypt and God raising a deliverer, Moses, who had to perform acts that we may consider to be outlandish today in order to convince Pharaoh to “let my people go.” What about those stone tablets that Moses received from God, cut out of the mountain, which he destroyed when returning from the mountaintop and seeing the Israelites worshiping an idol - a golden calf?
How about the wise King, Solomon who had 700 wives and 300+ concubines?

So, was Joseph Smith the real thing or just another charlatan? Who’s to say? Who among us is prepared to cast the first stone?

[PB144]

A friend of ours (who is a Mormon) gave my wife and I each a copy of the Book of Mormon as a gift. One day, my wife sat down and started to read the introductory section to me. I was quite surprised at what I heard. I was surprised, because the writer claimed that the information he received was given to him by an angel. The problem here is that the Book of Mormon is referred to as another gospel or testimony of Jesus Christ.

This makes me think of what was said in the Bible book of Galatians:

Galatians 1:7-9

and there isn`t another gospel. Only there are some who trouble you, and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you any gospel other than that which we preached to you, let him be cursed.

As we have said before, so I now say again: if any man preaches to you any gospel other than that which you received, let him be cursed.

I'm certainly not intending to judge Mormons here. I'm just concerned about placing any book on an equal level with the Bible. Certainly other books (like Strong's Concordance for example) can serve as a Bible study aid. However, none of these books can actually replace the Bible.

[Chicabonita]

PB144, not sure if I follow you.

For what I understand, the book of Mormon does not replace the Bible but like you said it claims to be another testament of Jesus Christ.

Secondly, the verses you cited in the bible talks about those who go against the gospel of Christ or those who preach another gospel. If the book of mormon preaches of Christ as the Messiah, how is it a different gospel?

[PB144]

Please don't misunderstand the point that I'm trying to make here...

The problem is, the 66 books of the Bible were canonized during the second century A.D. This means that the Bible is already complete.

The book of Mormon came into existence during the 19th century and preaches about a missing tribe that migrated to North America. From this vantage point, there really is no continuity between any of the New Testament books and the Book of Mormon.

I'm not attacking the Book of Mormon in itself since I don't know enough about it. But, I reject anything that puts itself on an equal level with the Bible. My Mormon friend already explained that this book doesn't replace the Bible.

However, the introduction suggests that it is a continuation of the Bible. So, my position is that other books at best can be Bible study aids and can be used as keys to better understand the Bible. Having said that, they're never equal to or greater than the Bible.