Not All Cheating Created Equal

[alieninthecaribbean]

This topic was inspired by the, "All Men Are Dogs" thread.

I man I really respect and who is very wise and experienced in the ways of the world and with women once told me something like this:

There are many different kinds of cheating. The first kind is CHEATING TO FILL A VOID. Sometimes two people get married under the false expectation that this one person is going to fill up all their needs. IMPOSSIBLE. Or they might just realise they are sexually or emotionally incompatible. Or they were fun, interesting, sexy, vibrant individuals when dating and after getting married fell into "roles" and forgot who they REALLY are, who they really fell in love with and so the thrill dies. In any one of those circumstances, an outside man or woman can come along who satisfies either emotionally or sexually something that is missing from the legitimate relationship. Sometimes the connection with the new person surpasses everything in the current relationship to such an extent the affair results in divorce of the old spouse and marrying the new one. Let's face it, some marriages were just not meant to be. Sting and Trudie Styler are a good example of two people who fell in love WHILE in bad marriages and left their former spouses for each other and have been together for over 20 years now. If you ever listen to Sting's "When We Dance", you will get an idea of what that was like.

Then there is UNAVOIDABLE ANIMAL CHEATING. We forget how powerful the sexual drive is, not just in men but women too. It is quite possible to love your spouse deeply in that serious, devoted kind of way and then find yourself in a situation where you meet someone and the sparks fly off the hook. You cannot explain why but there is an animal, primal connection and the passions simply take over. Conventional thinking says that, "Well if you TRULY love your spouse, even if you are consumed in a moment of lust, that love would keep you from acting on it."....well dream on. Not everyone has the willpower. These affairs are usually one night only, forgotten and kept secret for years and years and the married couple continue their lives oblivious and happy.

Then there is the WORST kind of cheating. MALICIOUS I DON'T LOVE YOU AND I DON'T GIVE A F**K ABOUT YOU CHEATING. In this case, the cheating is done to hurt the spouse and with the spouse's full knowledge.

Feel free to add you two cents about cheating here. Why it happens? How it happens? Which is more excusable in your eyes etc. :mrgreen:

[guyguy]

Cheating under any circumstances is unjustifiable in my book.

[alieninthecaribbean]

Cheating under any circumstances is unjustifiable in my book.

For me, it is more about dishonesty than the cheating itself.


If it was a animal passion spur of the moment thing, well own up to it.

If I have not been satisfyingy you and you have fallen out of love with me, TELL me before you find someone else.

[serenity]

Then there is UNAVOIDABLE ANIMAL CHEATING. We forget how powerful the sexual drive is, not just in men but women too. It is quite possible to love your spouse deeply in that serious, devoted kind of way and then find yourself in a situation where you meet someone and the sparks fly off the hook. You cannot explain why but there is an animal, primal connection and the passions simply take over. Conventional thinking says that, "Well if you TRULY love your spouse, even if you are consumed in a moment of lust, that love would keep you from acting on it."....well dream on. Not everyone has the willpower. These affairs are usually one night only, forgotten and kept secret for years and years and the married couple continue their lives oblivious and happy.



I dont prescribe to this.
I believe we've evolved enough to be able to control ourselves and not hump arbitrarily.

[Huma]

The kind of cheating that really bothers me is the cultural cheating. The kinda cheating that men (I can't speak for women) actively pursue, discuss openly, pat each other on the back for and dismiss as a lil horn. The "Deputy is Essential" syndrome. Men bein wutless fuh de sake of being wutless. It bothers me because a lot of the women in the segment of society that most embraces this culture aren't empowered enough to leave or reject it. They take the horn like medicine and delude themselves into thinking it's part and parcel of marriage.

I generally try not to judge the other kinds of cheating because you seldom know the circumstances in the marriage that led to it.

[trinipixie]

Then there is UNAVOIDABLE ANIMAL CHEATING. We forget how powerful the sexual drive is, not just in men but women too. It is quite possible to love your spouse deeply in that serious, devoted kind of way and then find yourself in a situation where you meet someone and the sparks fly off the hook. You cannot explain why but there is an animal, primal connection and the passions simply take over. Conventional thinking says that, "Well if you TRULY love your spouse, even if you are consumed in a moment of lust, that love would keep you from acting on it."....well dream on. Not everyone has the willpower. These affairs are usually one night only, forgotten and kept secret for years and years and the married couple continue their lives oblivious and happy.



I dont prescribe to this.
I believe we've evolved enough to be able to control ourselves and not hump arbitrarily.

Hmmm, I think people underestimate how powerful the sex drive is :D If a marriage has become more of a "sibling", "roommate" kind of relationship based on companionship and cooperation more than pure attraction and animal lust, I can fully see how a woman or man can meet someone and KABOOM!

[serenity]

Hmmm, I think people underestimate how powerful the sex drive is :D If a marriage has become more of a "sibling", "roommate" kind of relationship based on companionship and cooperation more than pure attraction and animal lust, I can fully see how a woman or man can meet someone and KABOOM!

Then take responsibility for your part in the difficulty in the marriage and working towards fixing it or ending it...not complicating it with a horn. That is just selfish at best.

[trinipixie]

No you misunderstood me. I never said there was anything WRONG with the marriage. In fact, it works as it is. Not every marriage is a hot bed of attraction and wild sex.

I can tell you of people with the BEST intentions and most certain view of themselves who have been BOWLED OVER by an unexpected sexual connection. We are not monogamous creatures by nature anyway, so whether we like it or not, strong sexual attractions and connections happen with people who are not our spouses.

Acting on it is more a matter of self-control than whether or not you love your spouse.

[Huma]

Yuh know what I find intriguing?

When fellas spend time talking about their wives with their outside women/hookers, and the women, knowing how much the men love their wives, give them good counsel.
I know it's a staple in fiction, but I saw a prostitute talking about it in a documentary once as well.

There's just something very genuine and humanly frail about that that I find kinda touching.

Sorry serenity, I know the scenario probably have yuh fumin :lol:

[serenity]

Sorry serenity, I know the scenario probably have yuh fumin :lol:

Indeed. :evil:

[guyguy]

Cheating under any circumstances is unjustifiable in my book.

For me, it is more about dishonesty than the cheating itself.
But isn't cheating, at anything, being dishonest?

If it was a animal passion spur of the moment thing, well own up to it.
Nah. If you're committed to someone either by marriage or other means, then it's still unacceptable to me.

If I have not been satisfyingy you and you have fallen out of love with me, TELL me before you find someone else.
In this case, the right thing to do is to leave, then go out and find another. That's just how I think regardless of the circumstances.

[alieninthecaribbean]

Cheating under any circumstances is unjustifiable in my book.

For me, it is more about dishonesty than the cheating itself.
But isn't cheating, at anything, being dishonest?
No cheating is human. Blatently lying about it and taking the other person for a fool is what irks me.

If it was a animal passion spur of the moment thing, well own up to it.
Nah. If you're committed to someone either by marriage or other means, then it's still unacceptable to me.
Well, that would be the ideal wouldn't it. Since the beginning of time, few have been able to meet it.

If I have not been satisfyingy you and you have fallen out of love with me, TELL me before you find someone else.
In this case, the right thing to do is to leave, then go out and find another. That's just how I think regardless of the circumstances.
I agree 100%! If it not working, end it first, then go and start something new.

[guyguy]

Cheating under any circumstances is unjustifiable in my book.

For me, it is more about dishonesty than the cheating itself.
But isn't cheating, at anything, being dishonest?
No cheating is human. Blatently lying about it and taking the other person for a fool is what irks me.
Being human is what separates us from lower life forms, isn't it? So, we have the capacity of consciously making a decision of either being dishonest or not, don't you think? And, if we do have that capacity, isn't it incumbent on us to make the ethical decision?

If it was a animal passion spur of the moment thing, well own up to it.
Nah. If you're committed to someone either by marriage or other means, then it's still unacceptable to me.
Well, that would be the ideal wouldn't it. Since the beginning of time, few have been able to meet it.
I am happy and very proud to report that I fall into that category. Should the day come when I feel differently, I'll simply terminate my relationship and we'll go our separate ways.

If I have not been satisfyingy you and you have fallen out of love with me, TELL me before you find someone else.
In this case, the right thing to do is to leave, then go out and find another. That's just how I think regardless of the circumstances.
I agree 100%! If it not working, end it first, then go and start something new.[/quote]

[alieninthecaribbean]

Yuh know what I find intriguing?

When fellas spend time talking about their wives with their outside women/hookers, and the women, knowing how much the men love their wives, give them good counsel.
I know it's a staple in fiction, but I saw a prostitute talking about it in a documentary once as well.

There's just something very genuine and humanly frail about that that I find kinda touching.

Sorry serenity, I know the scenario probably have yuh fumin :lol:


Huma, you are getting at something really important here- the inability of some women to fulfill their men once they become "wives". The man no longer sees the woman as this interesting person to discover and in turn achieve self-discovery. They no longer act as two individuals on an adventure and trying to become more intimate.

In many ways, marriage makes people just resign themselves the husband goes, "Well, I buy de cow now, so I no longer have to try, just maintain the cow"

The wife goes, "Well, I get put in house now, I just have to be a proper "respectable" wife now"

They start to "play house" instead of really working on the relationship. So no wonder, when the husband needs someone to talk to (and he cannot talk to his buddies as men don't like to be weak around each other) he cannot go to the "proper wife" to discuss his issues with her and break the domestic bliss. Very few men are FRIENDS with their wives because they don't know you CAN be and many women do not allow their husbands to be their friends. They treat them like breadwinners and lackeys being doled out sex on a "reward-system". Sad but true.

Even back in Greek society, a whore house was where a man could go and interact with women who were educated, talented and free to speak their mind and enjoy sex with all the wantoness they wanted. Wives at home were usually from an arranged marriage, illiterate, meek and at their husband's beck and call and were there to produce sons.

It is funny but even St. Augustine, the greatest prude to ever live and who forged the path for the RC church's stance on sex, said, "If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts" (Richards, 118). The view was the poor wife alone could not cope with her husband's lusts. The concept that a wife is a woman who also has sexual appetites and can enjoy sex and intimate friendship with her husband was lost on them.

Not that I agree with prostitution but in a sense I understand how in a society still heavily influenced by colonial and Victorian ideals on marriage (and by the way, our colonial forebearers had RAMPANT prostitution as well) why prostitution would be part of the mix.

[slightpepper[M]]

cheating.....hmmmmm......so wait it hav different levels a cheatin.......chups.......so jus now it go hav different level ah sin.......dais jus a way to clear ah guilty conscience......wat happen to wrong and right.........honor and disgrace.......probably I jus chupid......

[alieninthecaribbean]

Well guy guy, good to see that you have never cheated. Neither have I by the way but I don't feel particularly special for it, I just happen to be in a good relationship and we have a very open communication even to the point where I can say openly if I am attracted to someone else and visa versa.

I do believe as you do that we cannot just give in to every single animal urge. But in order to rise above it, we must first understand it.

Most don't and when they least expect it, despite all their declarations of moral uprightness it comes and bites them in the ass.

It is only VERY recently in human history that monogamous marriage had anything to do with romantic love. Your marriage was arranged to link two families with mutual business together and produce an heir to carry on the name and wealth. You had concubines or a second or third wife of your choosing to satisfy the love aspect. There was courtly love in the middle ages (arranged marriages with the understanding both were now free to pursue who they REALLY loved) and in Victorian society England was rife with prostitutes. Greek, Roman, Indian civilizations even elevated prostitution to a religion almost. We forget that this insistence on monogamy with someone you are romantically in love with is a fairly recent development in human civilzation and among primates, RARE. We are polyarmorphorous by nature.

If you can do monogamy and do it WELL so that it is mututally enjoyable and beneficial experience for both of you kudos! But I say, if you can't be monogamous at least be HONEST to yourself and the person/s you are with.

[guyguy]

If you can do monogamy and do it WELL so that it is mututally enjoyable and beneficial experience for both of you kudos! But I say, if you can't be monogamous at least be HONEST to yourself and the person/s you are with.
So far so good even after after 32 years but one never knows. Things change and I agree with you; be HONEST - at least, To thine own self, be true.

[Huma]

Huma, you are getting at something really important here- the inability of some women to fulfill their men once they become "wives". The man no longer sees the woman as this interesting person to discover and in turn achieve self-discovery. They no longer act as two individuals on an adventure and trying to become more intimate.

In many ways, marriage makes people just resign themselves the husband goes, "Well, I buy de cow now, so I no longer have to try, just maintain the cow"

The wife goes, "Well, I get put in house now, I just have to be a proper "respectable" wife now"

They start to "play house" instead of really working on the relationship. So no wonder, when the husband needs someone to talk to (and he cannot talk to his buddies as men don't like to be weak around each other) he cannot go to the "proper wife" to discuss his issues with her and break the domestic bliss. Very few men are FRIENDS with their wives because they don't know you CAN be and many women do not allow their husbands to be their friends. They treat them like breadwinners and lackeys being doled out sex on a "reward-system". Sad but true.

Even back in Greek society, a whore house was where a man could go and interact with women who were educated, talented and free to speak their mind and enjoy sex with all the wantoness they wanted. Wives at home were usually from an arranged marriage, illiterate, meek and at their husband's beck and call and were there to produce sons.

It is funny but even St. Augustine, the greatest prude to ever live and who forged the path for the RC church's stance on sex, said, "If you expel prostitution from society, you will unsettle everything on account of lusts" (Richards, 118). The view was the poor wife alone could not cope with her husband's lusts. The concept that a wife is a woman who also has sexual appetites and can enjoy sex and intimate friendship with her husband was lost on them.

Not that I agree with prostitution but in a sense I understand how in a society still heavily influenced by colonial and Victorian ideals on marriage (and by the way, our colonial forebearers had RAMPANT prostitution as well) why prostitution would be part of the mix.

Hell of an interesting post, alien. I remember this History of Sex special I saw where they spoke about the essential status that was given to prositutes back in those days, but I didn't know Mr No Sex himself who supported it. I never knew he had such a practical (albeit scornfully so) side.

That said, you inferred the opposite of what I was talking about. I was more talking about those men who love their wives deeply, but for whatever reason (failure at work, failure to communicate) feel they aren't good enough for her. They think/know they're making her sad for some reason (other than the horn) and actually seek marriage counseling from outside women and prostitutes. That was the exact term used by the call girl actually...marriage counseling. Kinda sad, and I doh mean that in a condescending way.

[trinipixie]

It would be interesting to find out WHY these men who go to prostitutes for marriage counselling feel they cannot talk to their wives.


I think alien right, some women have their men on a "performance" evaluation 24/7, and as soon as you slip is no nookie for you. Under that kinda stress a man cannot be frail or weak with his wife. So he will find somebody else shoulder to cry on.

[snowbird]

No you misunderstood me. I never said there was anything WRONG with the marriage. In fact, it works as it is. Not every marriage is a hot bed of attraction and wild sex. If one or both partners in that marriage requires even the occasional 'hot bed of attraction and wild sex' an it eh happening within the marriage, den de marriage eh workin.


I can tell you of people with the BEST intentions and most certain view of themselves who have been BOWLED OVER by an unexpected sexual connection. We are not monogamous creatures by nature anyway, so whether we like it or not, strong sexual attractions and connections happen with people who are not our spouses. Some very wise researcher decided to come up with a reason to justify infedility and this is the best he could come up with, comparing us to animals. Bottom line is, marriage is an institution that requires fedility, if you are not so inclined, then you shouldn't be in it.

Acting on it is more a matter of self-control than whether or not you love your spouse. When you truly love and respect your spouse, the dilemma of self control outside of the marriage doesn't even come up.

[serenity]

No you misunderstood me. I never said there was anything WRONG with the marriage. In fact, it works as it is. Not every marriage is a hot bed of attraction and wild sex. If one or both partners in that marriage requires even the occasional 'hot bed of attraction and wild sex' an it eh happening within the marriage, den de marriage eh workin.


I can tell you of people with the BEST intentions and most certain view of themselves who have been BOWLED OVER by an unexpected sexual connection. We are not monogamous creatures by nature anyway, so whether we like it or not, strong sexual attractions and connections happen with people who are not our spouses. Some very wise researcher decided to come up with a reason to justify infedility and this is the best he could come up with, comparing us to animals. Bottom line is, marriage is an institution that requires fedility, if you are not so inclined, then you shouldn't be in it.

Acting on it is more a matter of self-control than whether or not you love your spouse. When you truly love and respect your spouse, the dilemma of self control outside of the marriage doesn't even come up.

I old school like SB.

[alieninthecaribbean]

No you misunderstood me. I never said there was anything WRONG with the marriage. In fact, it works as it is. Not every marriage is a hot bed of attraction and wild sex. If one or both partners in that marriage requires even the occasional 'hot bed of attraction and wild sex' an it eh happening within the marriage, den de marriage eh workin.[/color


I can tell you of people with the BEST intentions and most certain view of themselves who have been BOWLED OVER by an unexpected sexual connection. We are not monogamous creatures by nature anyway, so whether we like it or not, strong sexual attractions and connections happen with people who are not our spouses. [color=#FF0000]Some very wise researcher decided to come up with a reason to justify infedility and this is the best he could come up with, comparing us to animals. Bottom line is, marriage is an institution that requires fedility, if you are not so inclined, then you shouldn't be in it.

Acting on it is more a matter of self-control than whether or not you love your spouse. When you truly love and respect your spouse, the dilemma of self control outside of the marriage doesn't even come up.


snow and serenity, while I appreciate your idealistic and august views on marriage and fidelity, it would be great if in reality it was actually that clear cut. Cultures which have tried to impose this ideal now find that marriage is failing miserably as an "institution" as you called it, over 60% divorce rate in Europe and an over 50% one in the US. Statistics show over 70% of men cheat and women are not to far behind. Imagine, it took something as simple as feminism and the culture of "personal fulfillment" to unravel the entire system. Divorce is as high today not because men have been cheating MORE or being MORE insenstive than they used to, but because women are more financially and socially idependent enough to finally LEAVE them and people in general want fulfillment and happiness.

So what was marriage built on then if female independence and the "I love me movement" adversely affects it? It would be a good thing for you to dig into the historical roots of it.

Even without reference to our primate cousins and the other intelligent mammals on the planet, we have set a pattern all our own. I said earlier anthropologically speaking, marriage had VERY LITTLE to do with romantic love per say. So why should you find it such a failure if a modern marriage lives up to that long standing tradition?

There are many marriages build on things other than just mutual attraction and a hot bed of sex. Sometimes both people knowingly, willingly and happily compromise on those things in favour of enjoying the other benefits of the "institution". In corporate and political circles a man has to get married to gain a certain status. Some see it purely as a means to devoting time and effort into building wealth, raising a family etc and they are fine with it. In fact, some maintain the "institution" even if they are no longer attracted to their spouse. Some are even generous enough to acknowledge that their spouse, while a good mother, friend and "wife" as far as managing the household, supporting their career and life goals go, cannot get romantic sexual fulfillment within the marriage and actually allow a mutually "open" arrangement, often once the kids are old and independent.

Uneducated people think this is something NEW and SCANDALOUS and a sign we living in de last days and society will fall apart etc etc. Bull. It is just a new spin on an old classic- courtly love, as old as the middle ages.

What IS making society fall apart though is the myopic view marriage has always been THIS or THAT or MUST be THIS or THAT because of certain religious and social expectations. Now everyone thinking there is just ONE ideal they must squeeze into whether they like it or not, whether it works or not. As a result many perfectly good marriages fall apart when they don't necessarily HAVE to because the people involved are not savvy, open-minded and adult enough to handle the situation more creatively and spare the kids the rigours of divorce. We have an ALL or NOTHING scenario with everyone trying to imitate the romantic comedies where husbands and wives are always each others companions, bestest friends, business partners, life partners, co-parents and excellent lovers. They don't realise it is not always so mutually exclusive. So they feel it is a complete failure when it is not the WHOLE package. We read self-help books and go to marriage counselling until we can squeeze out the perfect fulfillment of all those roles in the person we marry. Therapists and evangelists get rich. More people get divorced and even more feel like miserable failures because they cannot find EVERYTHING in one person.

Like I said before, I count myself (though not married) among the lucky few who has found most of those things in one person and for whom monogamy WORKS in the situation I am in. Perhaps you are too and that is great :mrgreen: . But I don't see myself as morally superior to someone who finds another arrangement and I appreciate how grateful I should be. Whatever it is, my BIGGEST benchmark is, are both parties being HONEST with themselves and each other? Are they respecting themselves and each other as individuals and are they HAPPY and FULFILLED in the arrangement as evidenced by them being healthy, stable and contributors to the community?


Of course, everyone can live to their own personal and religious values on marriage. I have no problem if someone wants to adopt what they believe is the Christian/Modern Western ideal of marriage in their own lives. However when speaking of it in general terms, it's highly subjective to pretend "marriage" is either 100% THIS or 100% THAT. Or there is some standard set in stone to which it is inalienably fixed. That has never been the case, not even within the bible. There are quite a few different marriage arrangements within that text and that is just one religious/historical/traditional/cultural source. Marriage has always been mutable over the ages and across many different cultures and individual households.

[sheppy]

I think i said this in another thread....but people that cheat usually do so because a 'need' is not being met.

Besides the fact that we assume people cheat because they can't keep their legs closed or keep their master of ceremonies in their pants...it is most times because they refuse to take responsibility for the fact that it was something that evolved because of lack of care on both sides.

Mutual Expectations are important in a marriage, if your husband married you because u were 'hott' and now ur boobs on the ground and have some baby fat around the ankles, don't expect him to just 'deal with it' . Your physical appearence was important to him and just because circumstance have changed, it doesn't mean his needs have.

The same way u married your husband because you could have talked about anything for hours ..and that met your need for communication and mental stimulation...and now he's quiet ...he can't expect that your need has disappeared...

[alieninthecaribbean]

Women hate to hear that Sheps ;) although it is true. I saw an talk show where the wife REALLY let herself go and the husband was no longer attracted to her and you should hear the audience (mostly female) when he voiced his lack of arousal for her body. Poor guy.

Women for some uncanny reason, like to believe the man will still be their Mr. Boombastic after they let themselves go and gain 100lbs :D

They forget men are visual creatures. Unless he liked plenty fat on his meat before, he not going to really like it now :mrgreen:

[snowbird]

O.K then; taking marriage out of the equation for a minute, let's look at the definition of Cheat / Cheater / Cheating ....


VERB:
cheat?ed , cheat?ing , cheats
VERB:
tr.

To deceive by trickery; swindle: cheated customers by overcharging them for purchases.
To deprive by trickery; defraud: cheated them of their land.
To mislead; fool: illusions that cheat the eye.
To elude; escape: cheat death.
VERB:
intr.

To act dishonestly; practice fraud.
To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards.
Informal To be sexually unfaithful: cheat on a spouse.

NOUN:
An act of cheating; a fraud or swindle.
One who cheats; a swindler.
Law Fraudulent acquisition of another's property..........

OTHER FORMS:
cheater (Noun)


To imply that the expectation of faithfulness is Christian/Modern Western ideal of marriage' is so not true.
It has less to do with ideals, and more to do with the fact that as a species we require order; long before it was officially written, man acted out whenever that order was disrupted; it is for that reason that 'contracts' came into being. Regardless of personal beliefs, like any other agreement in life, contracts are entered into with the agreement (not expectation) that the parties involved will live up to the wording and spirit of the contract.
Just like in business you wouldn't condone a person who decides to be 'just a little bit of a cheat'; so in marriage, or any other exclusive contract you should not; if you find yourself in a position where you can no longer live up to the commitment, (be it marriage, business or any other exclusive commitment), then you dissolve it and move on.

My feeling is, generally people who can justify cheating, will justify cheating in every area of their lives not just marriage; to me this says.... 'character flaw'.

With regard to cheating in marriage, I don't think there is any such thing as .... it just happened that once, or it was just a Kaboom.
My favourite quote from Dr. Phil is ...... the greatest indicator of future behaviour, is past behaviour.

[snowbird]

Women for some uncanny reason, like to believe the man will still be their Mr. Boombastic after they let themselves go and gain 100lbs :D

They forget (SOME) men are visual creatures.

Take a good look at all the 'plus size' women; do you think they are all lonely, unhappy, unloved, unappreciated women..... ah doh think so.

By the way, 'my brain' put on ah whole lot ah weight since after I got married; de Mister say he love meh more fer it. :lol:

[alieninthecaribbean]

I get where you are coming from snow.

Please note I was using "cheating" loosely in its slang form i.e. to have sex outside of a relationship/marriage.

So really the question is about the different kinds of reasons sex outside of a relationship/marriage happens. That includes but is not limited to, the sex outside of marriage/relationships that includes "cheating", lying, swindling as you mentioned. Like I keep saying, it's not so much the sex but the HONESTY. HONESTY. HONESTY. and as far as your understanding of cheating goes, I believe we are on the same page.

I do get and understand that you see it as just a matter of right and wrong case closed and the extent of any dialogue on the subject must end there and anything outside of that is justifying wrong-doing and that is okay believe me.

But this is a multi-dimensional conversation exploring the reasons, motivations etc and a discourse on human behaviour and WHY it happens etc.

[sheppy]

Snowbird, I did not say anything about plus size women not being loved. Some men love junk in the trunk *raises hand and sais 'present'*

I was pointing out that in a relationship each person has needs (whether they are voiced or not)
sometimes those needs are manifested physically (usually in men) or emotionally (usually in women)

I was also trying to say that when someone is guilty of cheating, it is usually because they have a need that was not being met, and found someone that could meet it.
NOW i'm not saying its right...or that they could just talk to their spouse and tell them they were unhappy, or felt as though a need was not being met. THey could very well just do that...

but i was also trying to impress on people that is not always one person guilty when someone cheats....usually it was arrived at together....

EXAMPLE...
Tom has a pretty wife, but cheats on her with a 'uglier' woman...why?
Tom's pretty wife cares more about how she looks than Tom, she does not give him what he craves...attention....but Tom loves his wife...she is not a bad person...but she just forgets about him sometimes....
Tom meets Janice at work, a single woman with 3 children..not so good looking...but she fusses over him..brings lunch for him at work...sits and talks about this and that...and 'really listens' to his ideas and always supports him...Tom finds himself becoming very attached/attracted to Janice....when he's at home with his pretty wife and she's talking about the new prada bag she saw...he wonders what Janice is doing and looks forward to seeing her at work the next day.
Eventually they start to lime after work and one day while dropping her home it happens...they feel horrible, Janice never meant to betray Tom's wife and Tom never meant to betray his wife's trust....but this new forbidden love is irresistable and they have several secret 'sessions' after work....
Eventually his wife finds out and is devastated....they are both inconsolable and decide to split.
Had Tom just told his wife what he was missing, this could have been avoided...had Tom's wife paid more attention to Tom's needs this could have been avoided...

Tom moves in with Janice who turns out to be a nightmare...her 3 kids are mutants and constantly get in the way, and Janice is less attentive, and pre-occupied with her kids, asking Tom to pick up the slack and do this and that....Tom is distraught...how did he get here?
an ugly woman with 3 kids.....

[alieninthecaribbean]

Sheppy I LOVE the ending! It real funny :mrgreen:

Sometimes the grass is not always greener on the other side.

[bluenote492000]

Look I’m still old fashioned so I can’t wrap my mind around the whole “different types of cheating thing”. To me it sounds more like the different types of excuses used to justify the creeping behaviour. Whatever happened to personal responsibility and integrity…………….oh wait that went the way of the dinosaurs :? . Cheating never happens by accident it is a premeditated act. So you discover you have feelings for someone other than your spouse, you then chose to continue to keep company with that person thereby fuelling your fantasies about that person, you then chose to act on those fantasies. Case close. I think it comes down to your morality and the uncrossable lines you draw in your life, then it becomes a non issue.

[slightpepper[M]]

Case close. I think it comes down to your morality and the uncrossable lines you draw in your life, then it becomes a non issue........thank you for sayin dis....... :D

[sheppy]

Blue and slight ... i love that you think this is all black and white...
yuh cheat..yuh bad..go to jail.

and is true that if you go looking for trouble..yuh go find it..case closed...
I dunno about this 'morals' of ole days ting at all....i find it had much more cheating (openly) and women accepting their philandering husbands ..(or risk getting a kick in the pants and get throw out the house) man in the 60's everybody was doin 'shrooms' and havin casual sex...but i digress...

I think there are different cheaters (dey all bad) but it have grey lines man...
- the man married to terminally ill wife finding comfort in the arms of another
- the woman married to a professed cheater and village scoundrel seeking revenge for the years of embarrasement and frustration.
- the man staying in a 'dead' marriage for the sake of the children, sexually unsatisfied for 10 years...

yeh they all broke their commitment to their wives/husbands and are cheaters...but are they the same as the exec with the 'perfect wife' that can't keep his hands off the new intern?

no matter what the situation, the common denominator(and internal justification in the mind of the guilty party) is usually that they are trying to find something to fill a void that the spouse either does not, cannot, or will not meet.

So you either do and be a nasty stinkin cheater...or be unhappy an do without...


-

[alieninthecaribbean]

What I find interesting about this discourse is the clear black and white position some take and then there are those who can see the multi-coloured areas of this issue.

It is interesting that biologically and psychologically speaking we were never designed to be monogamous. Monogamy is an artificial and culturally enforced premise based on ownership, securing the paternal line and establishment of the nuclear family unit. It was also demanded and enforced more on women than on men for obvious reasons of control. If left up to our own devices entirely, we would be like chimps, gibbons and dolphins and boinking each other non-stop just for the fun of it all, no strings attached. The "guilt" is a learned reaction, we get the instant our mother swats our hand away from playing with our "business down there" as children. It is not a natural emotion.

It is a fact of human behaviour that women select a more "safe", nurturing male partner for long term committment but during her ovulation will actively lust and be more attracted to the pheremones of a more aggressive, rugged man because he is obviously a more viable candidate for passing on strong genes.

Studies even showed women in long term marriages will select a t-shirt worn by a man who is not her husband as the most appealing and arousing in a blind smell test. Usually it is the t-shirt worn by the most masculine and healthy of the candidates. And THANK GOODNESS we are promiscuous by nature! Fact is, if it weren't for our promiscuous nature, the human beings as a species would never have survived. We would have been wiped out by disease, famine and natural disaster when it was just a few of us vs. the wild vast and unconquered world.

Monogamy has not ever been the norm, even within our illusions of "respectable" and "religious" moral codes. That is what I am trying to get at from a strictly ACADEMIC standpoint. It is not an EXCUSE as some on the singlular line of reasoning are trying to say.

Even if emotions and attractions are not acted on, the fact is they happen and that says a lot despite the Christian culture that dictates that even the THOUGHTS of wanting another is a sin resulting in people vowing and promising to only love and lust for ONE PERSON their entire lives within the perimeters of that moral code then failing miserably and suffering induced guilt.

For many this will never be anything but a black and white issue and maybe this discussion is too complicated in their simple world of EITHER/OR. I know where they are coming from, but we never learn anything and grow past limitations if we pre-determine everything and refuse to explore past our comfort zone.

BTW. I speak as one who has never cheated and was cheated on and who is now committed to a monogamous relationship at present. But it is not out of some kind of "black & white rule book" which I don't think applies to me anyway. It is simply based on emotional investment and what works bests for our relationship. There is an upfront agreement that if at any time any one of us wanted to have sex outside it cannot be another emotional investment, just a physical thing and must be clearly stated. So far, that has not happened, not that we have not had active outside crushes on other people. There is also an understanding that if at anytime one person falls out of love with the other we cash in this investment first before starting another one.

When I was cheated on, it was not the SEX that hurt me. In fact, I could even understand WHY it happened. The other woman was my ex's equal in age and strong, impressive and idependent and her attention made my ex feel like a woman and not a mother. Which was what she felt with me, a far younger, inexperieneced, needy and insecure person who was completely dependent on her and had no life of my own. The black and white view on the issue places ALL the blame on the person who cheated and NONE on the "victim". But it takes two to tango. I know that now.

Most who have forgiven and welcomed back their partner who cheated on them will say the same thing. It was not the SEX. We kinda expect frailty in that arena and can excuse it. It was the LYING about it. It was the feeling of being "strung along" like a burden or hinderance and lied to like an IDIOT. Some people so get hung up on the SEX ACT itself and extrapolate on how could it be possible to NOT NOTICE that is NOT your wife, husband or NOT THINK OF THEM while it happens etc. These people either underestimate the emotional/sexual impulse or have a very religiously/socially sanitized, immature or fairy tale view of sexuality. I know cause I once did too.

Maybe it is an AGE thing eh Sheps? I know from hard knocks that overestimating and overly flattering the human condition is the first step to a real humbling experience.

[guyguy]

alieninthecaribbean,
I will restrict my response just to marriage. When one gets married, one takes a vow to live by certain ethical and moral values in front of witnesses and before their God. Part of this vow is fidelity to ones spouse. Each person CHOOSES of his/her free will to become and to remain monogomous. Therefore, infidelity is out of the question. It's just that simple - black & white. There is no in-between regardless of the rationalization. As far as I am concerned, if I were to break that vow, I'd be just another hypocrite, and that will not sit well with me at all.

[snowbird]

I get where you are coming from snow.

Please note I was using "cheating" loosely in its slang form i.e. to have sex outside of a relationship/marriage.

So really the question is about the different kinds of reasons sex outside of a relationship/marriage happens. That includes but is not limited to, the sex outside of marriage/relationships that includes "cheating", lying, swindling as you mentioned. Like I keep saying, it's not so much the sex but the HONESTY. HONESTY. HONESTY. and as far as your understanding of cheating goes, I believe we are on the same page.

I do get and understand that you see it as just a matter of right and wrong case closed and the extent of any dialogue on the subject must end there and anything outside of that is justifying wrong-doing and that is okay believe me.

But this is a multi-dimensional conversation exploring the reasons, motivations etc and a discourse on human behaviour and WHY it happens etc.

Sorry, but I was just speaking to the topic..."Not All Cheating Created Equal", so I guess my rebuttal is.. Cheating is cheating is cheating, it's all equal.

[slightpepper[M]]

I think there are different cheaters (dey all bad) but it have grey lines man...........justifying gray lines to me is finding loop holes.........and I tink d more gray we use d more lost we'll become..........soon we will not be able to differentiate between wats right and wrong......I hav to see it only black or white.........in order to maitain one's honor...self-respect...... :D

[serenity]

]
I think there are different cheaters (dey all bad) but it have grey lines man...........justifying gray lines to me is finding loop holes.........and I tink d more gray we use d more lost we'll become..........soon we will not be able to differentiate between wats right and wrong......

AMEN.

[bluenote492000]

Cheating is like being pregnant it’s either you are or you aren’t so I can’t see where the grey area enters. When someone says “grey areas” in cheating are you talking about its okay to cheat once you can justify your actions? Like your wife of 20 yrs who bore you 4 kids cannot look like Madonna so it’s okay to cheat on her? Or hubby dearest suffers from ED (erectile dysfunction) so that gives you just cause to find a man to satisfy you? Or your spouse is suffering from a terminal illness that affects his/her sexual functioning so that gives you the “out” you need to boink anything in sight? Funny, this sounds like flat out selfishness. When you become married you move from a place of “me” to a “we” so your actions and behaviours are seen through the lens of whether or not it’s beneficial to the couple and if those behaviours strengthen the union. Guess what? Marriage is not a long running porn video it actually requires commitment, devotion and work. That you know that even 25 yrs into marriage even is your spouse gets to be 500lbs, bedridden and dying you can still look at that person and say yeah that’s still the best thing that ever happened to me and even if you have the opportunity to cheat you still won’t take it because you’d rather have a sexless life with this person than temporary relief with a someone else. That’s when you have the true love and devotion necessary to hold together a marriage for the long haul.

[slightpepper[M]]

this tread makes me feel like the beautiful flower known as LOVE dosent exist........where the shadows of lust covers it from being seen.....where there's no scent of hope and happiness......... :cry:

[serenity]

]this tread makes me feel like the beautiful flower known as LOVE dosent exist........where the shadows of lust covers it from being seen.....where there's no scent of hope and happiness......... :cry:

Hear dem lyrics nuh!
Dais why I marriding slight.

Blue, I agree with yuh!
Though what if your spouse was a vegetable with no hope of recovery?
But alive nevertheless.
Is it acceptable cheating to share your remaining life with someone else?

[sheppy]

hmmm i was never saying that cheating was acceptable....or right in any way...

[alieninthecaribbean]

hmmm i was never saying that cheating was acceptable....or right in any way...


EXACTLY Sheps! It is not about whether it is acceptable or not (I don't think I have ever suggested that it was acceptable and made it clear how I feel about honesty and committment) but whether it is UNDERSTANDABLE or not. Understanding WHY it happens is not the same as excusing it. Some people don't get that though. Anything that remotely strays off the course of the traditional thinking kinda scary for them.

It's the same as let's say, juvenile deliquency. Some people just take a strictly black and white position. Delinquent youth are a mencace, bad and damned! Beat dey ass and lock dem up! Case closed. Whereas, some try to UNDERSTAND the factors influencing juvenile delinquency to better empower themselves and others and come up with far more applicable and innovative solutions, espcially when traditional ones may not be working or available. It does not mean they are excusing juvenile delinquency.

I admit that I used a provocative title for this thread in the hopes it would stimulate a lot of responses so perhaps the fault is mine and I should re-name the thread WHY CHEATING HAPPENS ;) Maybe that is the reason certain posters have not been able to contribute anything substantial as far as analysing the various reasons WHY cheating happens and cannot move past simplistic moral/religious positions.

I take the blame for that squarely on my shoulders :mrgreen: and I will learn from this and be more direct with my topic titles next time.

[guyguy]

Blue, I agree with yuh!
Though what if your spouse was a vegetable with no hope of recovery?
But alive nevertheless.
Is it acceptable cheating to share your remaining life with someone else?

Here's the answer to your question.
BTW; Blue, yuh sure you iz 25 years old? You have more sense dan plenty ah we ole people oui.


Marriage is not a long running porn video it actually requires commitment, devotion and work. That you know that even 25 yrs into marriage even is your spouse gets to be 500lbs, bedridden and dying you can still look at that person and say yeah that’s still the best thing that ever happened to me and even if you have the opportunity to cheat you still won’t take it because you’d rather have a sexless life with this person than temporary relief with a someone else. That’s when you have the true love and devotion necessary to hold together a marriage for the long haul.

[serenity]

^^ I meant what if u were in your 20s and found yourself in that situation. Physically the person is alive but barely. The relationship becomes u visiting them in the hospital daily with no nurturing or love in return...just silence.

[guyguy]

^^ I meant what if u were in your 20s and found yourself in that situation. Physically the person is alive but barely. The relationship becomes u visiting them in the hospital daily with no nurturing or love in return...just silence.
Same answer serenity.
For better or for worse
In sickness and in health
'till death do us part
That's the vow I made and I'm sticking to it until my wife kicks me out of the house so she boyfren cud move in.

[serenity]

^^ I meant what if u were in your 20s and found yourself in that situation. Physically the person is alive but barely. The relationship becomes u visiting them in the hospital daily with no nurturing or love in return...just silence.
Same answer serenity.
For better or for worse
In sickness and in health
'till death do us part
That's the vow I made and I'm sticking to it until my wife kicks me out of the house so she boyfren cud move in.


Then I cant agree that its black or white.
I cant promise to remain faithful in virtual death.
Its like sati...only he hasnt actually died yet.

I'm not speaking from a position of being married or even in love with anyone, but I imagine even if I were married and after a coupla years this was my fate, then to live indefinitely without a companion with whom to share my life with would be a death sentence for me too. No one to laugh at my attempt at a joke or to help me pick out paint or to spend Christmas with, no one to grow with. Worse still if I have no kids to occupy my thoughts and energy.

It doesnt mean that from the moment of the accident I'll be checking out the paramedic and it may take me many years to actually stop grieving for the loss of the love and life I had, but sooner or later, if I was true to myself, I know I'm gonna wanna 'live' again.

(Gosh I feeling guilty areddy and me eh even marrid!)

[bluenote492000]

Then I’d visit my spouse everyday, talk to them, cry and still come back the next day. I know myself and I’ve seen that type of relationship with one spouse slowly dying with a few people in my life. Both of the couples were in their early thirties seemingly strong healthy people then one spouse got a terminal illness and hung on for a long time, the well spouse took care of the ill spouse. Some people even told tell to find someone to “comfort” them since the spouse sick and all but both of them said the thought never occurred to them since this was the love of their life. Even when the spouse finally passed away they still wear their wedding rings since they still consider themselves married. I remember looking at both of those situations and saying yeah that’s what love is, that’s what marriage is and that’s what I want for myself. Yeah guyguy I’m 25 actually turning 26 at the end of this month and I’ve spent a lot of time observing successful marriages and those that ended in divorce. You learn quite a few things from your elders by just observing them.

[serenity]

I'm not talking about something like cancer. I'm saying they're in a coma or a vegetable and doctors say there is nothing else they could do and the person may be like this indefinitely.

Indefinitely is hard to live with when it can mean another 50 years staring u in the face. Or even 15 years.

Taking care of a dying person I think might be 'easier' in terms of remaining true to your vows. U still have something to offer the person, u can still be there and there can still be a relationship of sorts even if its just in a look or a gentle touch.

Oh my goodness, I am scum :|
Pray for meh eh allyuh, that when I do fall i love, my view changes.
I feel dirty. :cry:

[bluenote492000]

I'm not talking about something like cancer. I'm saying they're in a coma or a vegetable and doctors say there is nothing else they could do and the person may be like this indefinitely.

Indefinitely is hard to live with when it can mean another 50 years staring u in the face. Or even 15 years.

Taking care of a dying person I think might be 'easier' in terms of remaining true to your vows. U still have something to offer the person, u can still be there and there can still be a relationship of sorts even if its just in a look or a gentle touch.

Oh my goodness, I am scum :|
Pray for meh eh allyuh, that when I do fall i love, my view changes.
I feel dirty. :cry:

If it was my spouse’s wish to remain on life support or he was in a vegetative state then yeah I’d be at the beside till the end.

[guyguy]

Oh my goodness, I am scum :|
Pray for meh eh allyuh, that when I do fall i love, my view changes.
I feel dirty. :cry:
You jess make me spill ah mouthful of coffee gyul.

I hope you find true love one day. Then you will have a very different perspective on a lot of things. Trust me on this since I'm talking from experience.

[guyguy]

If it was my spouse’s wish to remain on life support or he was in a vegetative state then yeah I’d be at the beside till the end.
*Hmmm... ah tink ah jess fine de perfect dulahin fuh meh big son oui ...

[sheppy]

well yes...i admire allyuh conviction...

but i hope u hever have to test it.....

(serenity...yuh eh bad girl...yuh cud just examine a situation from different angles, with an open mind and some practicality)

when yuh find yuh mate...tings go be smood like cocoa butter...y?
cuz u will know how to communicate with your spouse...and he will learn to communicate with you...you will share your hopes, fears and (most importantly) expectations and needs.

[serenity]

I officially love Sheppy. :)

But yuh know, if I put this hypothetical situation to my would-be husband and he say anything different to what Blue say, he getting two tap eh! :mrgreen:

[guyguy]

but i hope u hever have to test it.....Well breds, I have been tested on many occasions. Remember, I've traveled most of the world and you'd be surprised just how willing many women in some countries are ready to do whatever and whenever. I even had one write me a letter and stuck it under my hotel's room door - quite sad really - which I brought home and gave to my wife to read.

[sheppy]

Guy i've been to four continents and countless countries and know all too well what women will do......i must admit at times my will was tried but did not come up wanting. (thankfully)
its admirable that u have been able to 'pass the tests' but i have a saying...one is only really as loyal as their temptation...

I have heard many a person say i'd NEVER do this..or i'd NEVER do that...and in the face of some extraordinary circumstances/situations lost the right to those very words...

sure u'r loyal to your wife when a couple hussies flirt with u at a bar, or pass notes under your hotel door...great!

ur loyal to your wife even after she cheats on you and gives you a 'freebie' with a secret crush u've had for years?....Wonderful !

u on a deserted island for 10 years with the victoria secret women and no hope of rescue in sight?...well that deserves an award...

I just try to look at situations rationally. The Human condition is a wonderful thing ..but we are imperfect creatures and fundamentally flawed. Black and white are good for ideals, and being an idealist i totally understand this concept. I also understand that real life is not black and white...

[guyguy]

Guy i've been to four continents and countless countries and know all too well what women will do......i must admit at times my will was tried but did not come up wanting. (thankfully)


I just try to look at situations rationally. The Human condition is a wonderful thing ..but we are imperfect creatures and fundamentally flawed. Black and white are good for ideals, and being an idealist i totally understand this concept. I also understand that real life is not black and white...
Ahhh ... but my friend, many things of great importance in life ARE Black & White. And, I'm delighted to know that although you have been tried, you did not come up wanting.

[trinipixie]

Sheppy, people only realize what you are saying when they unexpecantly slip up or the cheating happens to them. Pride commeth before a fall. It is better to admit your fraility and I glad you honest about it :D

My dad cheated on my mum and they divorced. Boy I was angry with my father! I was too an idealist. How he could do that? But as I got older and more mature I got to know my mother better and the family history and circumstances surrounding their marriage I could finally UNDERSTAND his side of the story.

Like alien said, it is not necessarily about accepting or commending him for cheating but understanding why it happened.

I finally saw how bad a marriage it was, what a bad match they were and how IMPOSSIBLE my mum was to live with and divorce was not an option. That understanding led to forgiveness and I was able to mend my relationship with my dad before he passed away.

Cheating in marriage is breaking a promise but perhaps the real problem is that the promise itself is unrealistic for most people and they don't know it yet when they in church in front of witnesses. Especially if they marry young or for the wrong reasons.

Maybe more people should negotiate a different arrangement with their fiance before they tie the knot or just not promise what they know they cannot fulfill. Leave that part out of the vow entirely.

[guyguy]

Sheppy, people only realize what you are saying when they unexpecantly slip up or the cheating happens to them. Pride commeth before a fall. It is better to admit your fraility and I glad you honest about it :D

My dad cheated on my mum and they divorced. Boy I was angry with my father! I was too an idealist. How he could do that? But as I got older and more mature I got to know my mother better and the family history and circumstances surrounding their marriage I could finally UNDERSTAND his side of the story.

Like alien said, it is not necessarily about accepting or commending him for cheating but understanding why it happened.

I finally saw how bad a marriage it was, what a bad match they were and how IMPOSSIBLE my mum was to live with and divorce was not an option. That understanding led to forgiveness and I was able to mend my relationship with my dad before he passed away.

Cheating in marriage is breaking a promise but perhaps the real problem is that the promise itself is unrealistic for most people and they don't know it yet when they in church in front of witnesses. Especially if they marry young or for the wrong reasons.

Maybe more people should negotiate a different arrangement with their fiance before they tie the knot or just not promise what they know they cannot fulfill. Leave that part out of the vow entirely.
trinipixie,
My dad was one of the biggest philanderers in T&T and I probably have hundreds of half-siblings stretching from Toco to Icacos. That is why I am the way I am when it comes to fidelity and promises. I see that your mom divorced your adulterous father. That's the best option and it's not what this Thread is about anyway. Secondly, if you don't truly believe that you can keep a sacred vow, then, by all means, do not make any. No one is forcing you to do so. Instead, go live with the person for as long as you wish. When things seem to be going sour, just pack your bags and hit the road. This marriage thing is serious business, unlike the Hollywood version. If you feel there are certain facets with which you disagree, then skip the whole shebang and just shack up with whoever you want.

[trinipixie]

trinipixie,
My dad was one of the biggest philanderers in T&T and I probably have hundreds of half-siblings stretching from Toco to Icacos. That is why I am the way I am when it comes to fidelity and promises. I see that your mom divorced your adulterous father. That's the best option and it's not what this Thread is about anyway. Secondly, if you don't truly believe that you can keep a sacred vow, then, by all means, do not make any. No one is forcing you to do so. Instead, go live with the person for as long as you wish. When things seem to be going sour, just pack your bags and hit the road. This marriage thing is serious business, unlike the Hollywood version. If you feel there are certain facets with which you disagree, then skip the whole shebang and just shack up with whoever you want.


Well my dad was not a philanderer i.e a serial cheater with a set ah bastards all over the place. He genuinely fell in love, TRUE love with one woman, the problem was she was not his wife. Other factors made him marry my mother.

After my parents divorced, he re-married, had beautiful kids and wonderful home and life together that was impossible with my mum. Eventually I realised how happy he was and that my step-mum was not an evil witch but a nice person.

Yes I know he should have probably waited to divorce first and then re-marry BEFORE having sex with my step-mum but really, c'mon, how many people genuinely in LOVE with someone actually wait till marriage to get intimate and even if they don't go all the way physically, they still do cheat emotionally. In my dad's case divorce was not possible for a LONG LONG time because of us kids and he had to live with my mum, a woman he no longer loved and who no longer fulfilled him and made life hell. So while I do not excuse what he did, I can UNDERSTAND why it happened.

People treat marriage like it is the ultimate expression of undying love and idealistically it should be. But don't forget, not everyone gets married to THE ONE or for the right reasons. That is probably why I chose to live together with my bf and ensure this is truly THE ONE before making that leap. A lot of people marry the wrong person by mistake. I don't want that to happen to me.

[guyguy]

People treat marriage like it is the ultimate expression of undying love and idealistically it should be. It is! And, you are doing the smart thing in my opinion - living with your boyfriend before deciding to get married. This is the advice I give to my kids. You dad wasn't a philanderer but an adulterer and as far as I am concerned, he should have waited for the divorce before screwing around. Sure, your mom may have been terrible to him and he may have had to marry her but once he did, he took on a tremendous responsibility. It seems that he stuck around because of the kids. Well, that is almost as bad. Why did he stick around? To teach the kids just what a loveless marriage is all about? To ensure their financial support? Because your mom refused to give him a divorce at that time?

The bottom line is that you may understand his behaviour but that still does not excuse it regardless of how you try to rationalize it.

[alieninthecaribbean]

Idealistically speaking, you get married to one person and your feelings for them and theirs for you will never change. Realistically speaking people and circumstances change.

I know a couple who got married had a wonderful ten year marriage then started to grow apart. They had two very young kids, financially and otherwise, divorce was out of the question.

But perhaps because they were both kinda academic and worldly in a way, they handled it like pros and managed to share a household, raise their kids while seeing other people *GASP*. :shock: They remained good friends and good co-parents and as soon as the kids got older and divorce became possible, they did it very amicably. The kids handled it well too. In fact I met up with the guy and he told me, "My wife is happier, sexier and a far better person now than she ever was during our marriage. I'm so proud of her!"

Like I keep saying it's all about the honesty thing. Some treat marriage like a steel trap they have to wrestle against and lie and cheat to get around when it proves to be a hinderance to their happiness. Some are honest and realistic and are able to be a little more creative with it and adapt it to their circumstances before it turns into a big heartache for everyone involved.

[guyguy]

Idealistically speaking, you get married to one person and your feelings for them and theirs for you will never change. Realistically speaking people and circumstances change.
Agreed! And when the circumstances change then getting a divorce is the only option in my view. Anything else is pure hypocrisy regardless of the rationalization. There is no in-between when it comes to marriage. None!

[trinipixie]

[quote=trinipixie]
People treat marriage like it is the ultimate expression of undying love and idealistically it should be. It is! And, you are doing the smart thing in my opinion - living with your boyfriend before deciding to get married.

Thanks. I know I am


You dad wasn't a philanderer but an adulterer and as far as I am concerned, he should have waited for the divorce before screwing around. Sure, your mom may have been terrible to him and he may have had to marry her but once he did, he took on a tremendous responsibility.

Yup I agree but how many 18 year olds understand what the hell they are getting themselves into or how drastically their lives will change


It seems that he stuck around because of the kids. Well, that is almost as bad. Why did he stick around? To teach the kids just what a loveless marriage is all about? To ensure their financial support? Because your mom refused to give him a divorce at that time?[/i]

I'm glad my dad stuck around. He was a good father to us and really never denied us anything. Even if he was not in-love with my mum he at least waited for her to be well settled and for her very strict, very traditional parents to die before departing. He knew the stigma it would bring to her in her family.


The bottom line is that you may understand his behaviour but that still does not [i]excuseit regardless of how you try to rationalize it.[/quote:2cvscf8i]

I thought I said as much. Perhaps you missed that. And like I said before, I am glad I see both sides cause we tend to treat one parent as the 100% victim and the other as the 100% baddie. But the blame is really 50/50.

[alieninthecaribbean]

Hey guy guy, like I said before, perhaps for your marriage, it has to be ONE way or nothing at all. That's cool too. Especially if it works well in your life. But many people find middle grounds that work for them. I don't make blanket judgements on them either any more than I would make on your marriage. Once there is mutual honesty and respect.

I'm curious though as to what is your basis or evidence that marriage MUST be one particular way and cannot vary from it an inch. Please share.

[guyguy]

[quote=guyguy][quote=trinipixie]
People treat marriage like it is the ultimate expression of undying love and idealistically it should be. It is! And, you are doing the smart thing in my opinion - living with your boyfriend before deciding to get married.

Thanks. I know I am


You dad wasn't a philanderer but an adulterer and as far as I am concerned, he should have waited for the divorce before screwing around. Sure, your mom may have been terrible to him and he may have had to marry her but once he did, he took on a tremendous responsibility.

Yup I agree but how many 18 year olds understand what the hell they are getting themselves into or how drastically their lives will change

I know of four right off and a fifth in about a year - all in the same family too. I also know that if you're old enough to engage in sexual intercourse, then you know the possibility of impregnating your girlfriend and by extension, the life changing events that would ensue.



It seems that he stuck around because of the kids. Well, that is almost as bad. Why did he stick around? To teach the kids just what a loveless marriage is all about? To ensure their financial support? Because your mom refused to give him a divorce at that time?[/i]

I'm glad my dad stuck around. He was a good father to us and really never denied us anything. Even if he was not in-love with my mum he at least waited for her to be well settled and for her very strict, very traditional parents to die before departing. He knew the stigma it would bring to her in her family.

Do you think he would have been a bad father had he gotten a divorce instead or not waiting for his in-laws to die? And why care about the "stigma" if there was no love in the relationship?



The bottom line is that you may understand his behaviour but that still does not [i]excuseit regardless of how you try to rationalize it.[/quote:14nji1z5]


I thought I said as much. Perhaps you missed that. And like I said before, I am glad I see both sides cause we tend to treat one parent as the 100% victim and the other as the 100% baddie. But the blame is really 50/50.

I did miss that. However, from my personal experience, I can unequivocally state that in my case, the fault/blame laid squarely on my dad's shoulders. You see, he was filthy stinking rich, with a very high profile job at Texaco, and, though not as handsome as I am, :D was indeed a very handsome man. Furthermore, he subscribed to the notion that husbands must have "outside" women and as you can imagine, women of every persuation chased him down. Unfortunately, he succumbed to his inflated ego, not realizing the damage he was doing to his family. My mother took me and left him and his wealth. We then went from living in the lap of luxury to almost abject poverty. In reflecting on this episode of my life, my mother did the right thing regardless of the extreme hardships we both faced daily.[/quote:14nji1z5]

[serenity]

Hey guy guy, like I said before, perhaps for your marriage, it has to be ONE way or nothing at all. That's cool too. Especially if it works well in your life. But many people find middle grounds that work for them. I don't make blanket judgements on them either any more than I would make on your marriage. Once there is mutual honesty and respect.

I'm curious though as to what is your basis or evidence that marriage MUST be one particular way and cannot vary from it an inch. Please share.

Dont see how cheating and 'mutual respect and honesty' works in the same sentence unless there's a 'no' somewhere in between.

[slightpepper[M]]

Dont see how cheating and 'mutual respect and honesty' works in the same sentence unless there's a 'no' somewhere in between.........pondering dis.......

[guyguy]

Hey guy guy, like I said before, perhaps for your marriage, it has to be ONE way or nothing at all. That's cool too. Especially if it works well in your life. But many people find middle grounds that work for them. I don't make blanket judgements on them either any more than I would make on your marriage. Once there is mutual honesty and respect.

I'm curious though as to what is your basis or evidence that marriage MUST be one particular way and cannot vary from it an inch. Please share.
Like serenity stated, I don't think one can have mutual honesty and respect for each other and still cheat. That seems to be oxymoronic to me. Regarding my basis or evidence about marriage, I am unable to give you an answer other than to state that it is a deeply personal belief. Sorry I can't do any better. Hmmm ... I wonder what would Kant think about that?

[alieninthecaribbean]

guy guy, serenity and slight pepper, you are confusing what I said with something else entirely. I did not say anyting about cheating in relation to honesty or mututal respect.

I was talking about couples who agree to be a little more open or different in their marriage arrangements before the cheating even becomes necessary.

guy guy was asserting that marriage MUST be one particular way or it is not a valid marriage. Or that somehow marriage-the institution in of itself is something fixed and sacrosanct. guy guy dear, still waiting for you to tell me WHERE you got that from? What defined it that way for you?

The facts and thousands of years of history and observed human behaviour show there have always been many different kinds of marriage arrangements. For example, some Native American tribes have something called the Houdouh Dance, where for one night, you are expected to sleep with someone who is not your life-mate. Some cultures allow concubines for the husband. In the bible, if a man's wife was barren, she could offer her maidservant for him to father children by. Marriages have been arranged based on family business and the husband can choose a second or third wife based on love and attraction.

So really, this whole thinking that marriage is ONE THING or NOTHING at all, is all an illusion. I was saying that the important thing regardless of HOW you choose to handle matters between you and your spouse, based on your personal needs, culture or religion is that honesty and mutual respect should always be the guiding factors.

You might think somehow your particular marriage arrangement is superior to another person's, but that is just your bias, not an objective or informed stance.

Hope you understand now.

[trinipixie]

So really, this whole thinking that marriage is ONE THING or NOTHING at all, is all an illusion. I was saying that the important thing regardless of HOW you choose to handle matters between you and your spouse, based on your personal needs, culture or religion is that honesty and mutual respect should always be the guiding factors.


I agree. I think people do not realise they CAN make a marriage what they will to suit their needs. Perhaps if they waited a little more to know themselves better BEFORE and negotioated the terms BEFORE.

I think everyone with all different kinds of feet sizes are trying to squeeze into one size of shoe because they fear judgement from the world at large.

Cheating would not be necessary if people custom-fit their marriages.

[trinipixie]

Do you think he would have been a bad father had he gotten a divorce instead or not waiting for his in-laws to die? And why care about the "stigma" if there was no love in the relationship?


Hey guy guy, not to get into too much detail, but I don't think he would have been a bad father per say. He made sure she got her inheritance and was well settled before leaving. There was a chance the divorce would have alienated her from her parents and he didn't want that.

Here's what I think about marriage vows. When you make them, you are making a blind promise.

It's the same as like two people who have never run a marathon before, never trained for one, promising to run 26.5 miles together, holding hands all the way. They promise they will run without stopping to rest (cheating) and they will never let go of each other’s hand, not even to scratch an itch or wipe away the sweat trickling down their foreheads (cheating again). So you are basically promising something you cannot fully guarantee to begin with. You have never run 26.5 miles before, let alone holding someone’s hand. You do not know your own strength or stamina yet. You are making an unsubstantiated promise.
Does that soundpessimistic guy guy? I think it is just realism.

Even couples who managed to make the full 26.5 miles together some some form of cheating and forgiveness was involved. Most get exhausted and give up before the marathon is over.

So while your conviction is admirable guy guy, only time will tell if you have any authority to actually cast any judgements or aspersions on those who did not complete the marathon or completed it with some cheating or creative loopholes. You and your wife still have many, many miles ahead of you and you have no idea if the terrain on your 26.5 mile run will change from flat to uphill and if the weather conditions will change from cool to sweltering heat or if you or her will get a severe muscle cramp and be forced to stop for a rest. ;)

I intend to practice and train before the marathon starts. And maybe I will do what alien said and before I even start the marathon, we will make sure the running shoes fit and there are rest stops along the way if we need it.

If people gave it a valient effort, we should cut them some slack. A 26.5 mile run holding hands with someone is not easy and some people real outta shape to start with. :mrgreen:

[guyguy]

I believe that "the institution in of itself is something fixed and sacrosanct." It is not a game whereby one makes up or changes the rules before or during a marriage. If one wants to have an "open marriage" then why get married in the first place? What is the purpose of getting married?

While it is true that certain cultures in the past have practised polygomy - The Abrahamic Religions probably being the most famous - and yes, even King Solomon was said to have had 700+ wives, and one can still find some ancient cultures that subscribed to a variety of marital accomodations and practises, does that mean that we, today, should resort to those archaic practises? If so, then why stop there? Why not return to the days of the caveman? If a male wants to have sexual intercourse with a female, all he had to do was bop her on the head with his club, drag her to his cave, and when she comes to, satiate his sexual desires.

That fact is that we are an evolved species - subject to interpretation, of course -and customs and mores have changed, and part of those customs and mores is the institution of marriage. From a purely religious context, I can list all of the world's major religons and many of the minor ones and find that a universal truth, the common thread that's endemic to them all is that marriage is sacrosanct.

So, if one were to be a part of the religious community and get married under its individual religious auspecies, then one is bound by that religious code of conduct. On the other hand, if one gets married for legal purposes, such as the ensuring of equity in property or the right to make life and death decisions for each other in case of catastrophic illness, and they want to craft their own legal customization, then that is another thing altogether. Hundreds of thousands of people go to Las Vegas each year of which thousands don't even get out of their vehicles but get married at a drive-up window, like ordering a #1 at McDonalds. That's their prerogative and I have no problem with it at all, but, when it comes to getting married in a church, temple, mandir, by the ocean, in the presence of witnesses under God, and one makes promises or takes certain vows, then that is as sacrosanct as the gorund on which Moses stood before the burning bush. There's no room for compromise then. But, then again, that's just me, and I'm nuts anyway so the foregoing may just be mindless diatribe.

[guyguy]

Hey guy guy, not to get into too much detail, but I don't think he would have been a bad father per say. He made sure she got her inheritance and was well settled before leaving.Then there was no need to not get a divorce, was there? Your dad sounds like a great man.

There was a chance the divorce would have alienated her from her parents and he didn't want that. If your dad used to severely beat your mom daily, do you think her parents would then have approved or even encouraged her to get a divorce or would they have possibly alienated her had she decided to get a divorce without their "blessings.?"


Here's what I think about marriage vows. When you make them, you are making a blind promise.Thats both the beauty and risk that one takes and your example about the marathon, though quite good, is irrelevant. A marathon is not sacrosanct. A marriage is!


It's the same as like two people who have never run a marathon before, never trained for one, promising to run 26.5 miles together, holding hands all the way. They promise they will run without stopping to rest (cheating) and they will never let go of each other’s hand, not even to scratch an itch or wipe away the sweat trickling down their foreheads (cheating again). So you are basically promising something you cannot fully guarantee to begin with. You have never run 26.5 miles before, let alone holding someone’s hand. You do not know your own strength or stamina yet. You are making an unsubstantiated promise.
Does that soundpessimistic guy guy? I think it is just realism.

Even couples who managed to make the full 26.5 miles together some some form of cheating and forgiveness was involved. Most get exhausted and give up before the marathon is over.


So while your conviction is admirable guy guy, only time will tell if you have any authority to actually cast any judgements or aspersions on those who did not complete the marathon or completed it with some cheating or creative loopholes. Please don't let me mislead you, or anyone else for that matter, that I am some type of authority on marriage. I definitely am NOT! If I project that image, then I sincerely apologize. That is not my intent.


You and your wife still have many, many miles ahead of you and you have no idea if the terrain on your 26.5 mile run will change from flat to uphill and if the weather conditions will change from cool to sweltering heat or if you or her will get a severe muscle cramp and be forced to stop for a rest. ;) True. No one can predict the future. If I could, I'd be buying lottery tickets with the correct numbers each week. Who knows? Maybe later today my wife will tell me to pack my jhanji bundle and hit the road, or, I might feel like doing it of my own free will. I cannot categorically say what will happen later today, let alone in the future.

[guyguy]

Perhaps if they waited a little more to know themselves better BEFORE and negotioated the terms BEFORE.You may have a point there depending on your moral and ethical codes - and yes - morality is different for everyone. However, following is the part of the negotiation I made during the marriage ceremony and I intend to keep it;

"For better or for worse
In sickness and in health
'till death do us part"

I cannot say, as I have already stated elsewhere, that I can predict what the future holds but I haven't done too badly so far.
Guy

[guyguy]

This may be apropos to the Thread;