On race and identity

[Sirius]

One thing that has always amused, confused and disappointed me is how far people take the issue of their racial heritage. Now to be sure, it is important to understand where we came from not just in terms of the geographic location but also the culture.

But what is with the fixation of so many Trinis on trying to be "true" to their "roots"?

Where am I from? I am from Trinidad.

What is my ancestry? At some point, they would have migrated out of the Indian subcontinent.

What am I? A human being.

If you want to be so true to your "roots", why not just go back there? Why can't we understand and appreciate our heritage but at the same time move forward in our own independent culture? We don't live in some far off land of past centuries. We live in a rich, mixed culture of the 21st century.

Time to grow up as the human race.

[oecarb]

If you want to be so true to your "roots", why not just go back there? Why can't we understand and appreciate our heritage but at the same time move forward in our own independent culture? We don't live in some far off land of past centuries. We live in a rich, mixed culture of the 21st century.

Yep.

An Indo-Trini friend recently emailed me saying that he got his PIO card. It seems that all Indo-Trinis (half the population of T&T) would qualify for one.

Now, if the African and European continents could issue corresponding cards (Persons of African or European Origin), I could then reclaim my Carib roots and encourage them all to go back home. :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

.

[BW]

I think it's the same reason people look to religion. It gives a person the feeling of being part of something greater than themselves. It satisfies the curiosity to know where one "fits" in the world.

It's not quite as simple for some people to "let go" of the racial component if their identity. You're asking them to pull out a fundamental part of their psyche, which may not be compensated elsewhere.

To illustrate that point, let's try a little thought exercise:

Consider each of the following "spheres" of identity.
Rate them on a scale of 1 through 10, based on importance to you.

Family [1-10]
Nationality [1-10]
Race/Heritage/Ethnicity [1-10]
Religion [1-10]
Occupation [1-10]

I suspect your response would differ to some who is more "racial" on more than just that one axis. You might be less dependent on race, because you might have had a strong family life and respectable job to compensate. Not everyone has that, however.

/sleepy.

[Sirius]

I think it's the same reason people look to religion. It gives a person the feeling of being part of something greater than themselves. It satisfies the curiosity to know where one "fits" in the world.

It's not quite as simple for some people to "let go" of the racial component if their identity. You're asking them to pull out a fundamental part of their psyche, which may not be compensated elsewhere.

To illustrate that point, let's try a little thought exercise:

Consider each of the following "spheres" of identity.
Rate them on a scale of 1 through 10, based on importance to you.

Family [1-10]
Nationality [1-10]
Race/Heritage/Ethnicity [1-10]
Religion [1-10]
Occupation [1-10]

I suspect your response would differ to some who is more "racial" on more than just that one axis. You might be less dependent on race, because you might have had a strong family life and respectable job to compensate. Not everyone has that, however.

/sleepy.

That is an interesting and valid point breadwinner. But at the same time, I don't mean people should abandon their racial identity...just don't be so hung up on it. At least to me, there are so many things that are of greater importance. It is good to know one's heritage but it is far more important to live the here and now.

To respond to your scale though, let's try that out. I've made one or two little adjustments though, if that's not a problem:

Family and Friends [7]
Nationality [5]
Race/Heritage/Ethnicity [2]
Religion [2]
Occupation [7]
Social Standing [5]
Education(not necessarily academic) [7]

[Huma]

The fact of the matter is that there's no single, homogeneous T&T culture. The dominant culture you belong/adhere to in Trinidad is influenced heavily by your racial make-up. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

It's as if we're eliminating the entire concept of context because we're afraid of those who've perpetuated the negative aspect of the racial discourse. It's as if you hadda be ashamed to identify yuhself or yuh dominant social culture as African/Indian/etc for fear of being mistaken for some racist zealot.

People act as if calling yourself by your ethnicity means that you're denying your nationality...so you hadda add "Trini" to the end of it even though the meaning is obvious in most contexts. Is like having to mention "human" every time you refer to yourself as a man or a woman.

I think it takes a certain amount of maturity to accept and acknowledge the existence of different races/ethnicities, and to simultaneously accept a member of another group as the same as you on another level. The fact that I identify my ethnicity as African doesn't mean that I'm less loyal to my country or against any other ethnic group. It doesn't even mean that I want to visit Africa. It's just me acknowledging my ancestry and a dominant part of my cultural and physical identity.

[Sirius]

The fact of the matter is that there's no single, homogeneous T&T culture. The dominant culture you belong/adhere to in Trinidad is influenced heavily by your racial make-up. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

It's as if we're eliminating the entire concept of context because we're afraid of those who've perpetuated the negative aspect of the racial discourse. It's as if you hadda be ashamed to identify yuhself or yuh dominant social culture as African/Indian/etc for fear of being mistaken for some racist zealot.

People act as if calling yourself by your ethnicity means that you're denying your nationality...so you hadda add "Trini" to the end of it even though the meaning is obvious in most contexts. Is like having to mention "human" every time you refer to yourself as a man or a woman.

I think it takes a certain amount of maturity to accept and acknowledge the existence of different races/ethnicities, and to simultaneously accept a member of another group as the same as you on another level. The fact that I identify my ethnicity as African doesn't mean that I'm less loyal to my country or against any other ethnic group. It doesn't even mean that I want to visit Africa. It's just me acknowledging my ancestry and a dominant part of my cultural and physical identity.

That last paragraph beautifully describes how it should be. I can and do identify myself as "indian" when asked my racial identity. If asked my nationality, Trinidadian.

There are people however who the first thing they want to know about another person is what race they are. Case in point:
"What he/she like?"
"Well tall, kinda stocky, dark...works in IT, likes..."
"No they indian, negro, mix-up, what?"
And I there wondering what that have to do with anything.

Then you have those who more concerned with if somebody halfway across the world in India for example made some big achievement. Doesn't matter if someone right here in T&T did something wonderful - the "motherland" came first. I can't begin to tell how many times members of my own family keep trying time and again to boast about how India can launch satellites, how India have this big movie industry, how this Indian discover this or that, how NASA full up of Indians...disgusting! Not that I am saying it's not good to see and appreciate the advancements of this other place, but when it is such an obsession that it takes priority over all else then it is just plain disturbing.

The problem I have is not that people want to be interested in their heritage, but that so many are so absorbed in it that they really don't care for anything else. Their entire life centers around what happened in this land their ancestors left generations ago, and if something of interest happens here, it is mostly because it's their fellow race that did it. Look at T&T politics for a glaring example.

[brag]

Attorney and columnist, Martin George makes some interesting observations about identity in his article in today Trindiad Guardian "Who shall lead them?" http://www.guardian.co.tt/martingeorge.html

"Driving out last night with my daughter Anais, she asked me to put the radio on her favourite station, Radio Jagriti 102.7 FM.

I was just looking at her and smiling as she sang along to the music and was telling me excitedly about the Indian classical dance classes she is starting and the musical instruments she is learning to play.

An advertisement then came on for a fund-raising dinner to be held for the Indian-Caribbean History Museum.

I was quite interested to hear about it, because the tag line for the ad was to help preserve our heritage, and I thought to myself that this is really good.

Of course, I then wondered why there seemed to be no similar thrust by Afro-Trinbagonians and Afro-Caribbean people to identify with and claim their identity and heritage in meaningful ways.............................................. ....."

[snowbird]

The only reason ah doz say ah is just an 'nobody Trini', is cus unlike dem single race Trinis, ah kar say ah is ah Indo, or ah Afro......
if somebody cud help me tuh mesh dem ten bloodlines in meh veins, ah go be real happy, cus den ah cud be 'somebody Trini' :lol:

[oecarb]

so you hadda add "Trini" to the end of it even though the meaning is obvious in most contexts. Is like having to mention "human" every time you refer to yourself as a man or a woman.

To my mind, on a discussion forum nationality, race or ethnicity and culture are totally irelevant. We are discussing ideas - as supposedly intelligent human beings.

However, on this forum quite a few threads do deal with these issues. I, personally, strongly object to a Trini calling him/herself Indian or African or some other race/ethnicity. I would just about accept ethnicity as a description of the type of Trini.

I have never personally met an African who called himself an African.

Africa is a large continent with fifty or sixty (or more) countries and, in my experience, Africans tend to refer to themselves as Mauritanian or Nigerian or Egyptian or Libyan or South African or Kenyan or Somali or Gambian or Zimbawean etc. If it is relevant, they would further identify themselves as Yoruba, Igbo, Ashanti, Fulani, Kikuyu, Luo, Himba, San, Xhosa etc.

Each of these ethnic groups has history and tradition/culture going back centuries.

People of African origin that I have met and who were born outside of Africa might describe themselves as Nigerian, Somali etc. Only Afro-Trinis, to my knowledge, call themselves Africans - mainly because they do not know which ethnic group or even country their ancestors came from. Black Americans constantly refer to themselves as African Americans. They hadda add "American". I wonder why.

To my mind, Indians are from India. Period. There are persons of Indian origin who live in other countries and they call themselves various things - including Indian-American or, in Britain, Asian. They are part ofthe Indian diaspora and their ancestors, too, have traditions and history going back millennia. And when some of them left India to live in T&T, they became Trinis, in my opinion.

My Indian/Asian colleagues at work used to smile if I described Indo-Trinis as Indian.

.

[BW]

I have never personally met an African who called himself an African.

I've met a few. I've also seen that most Africans (regardless of how which country or ethnicity they are from) they tend to have a stronger connection with "Afro" people born in the Caribbean and the United States. I've also seen similar situations where Indians (from India) tend to be more apt to deal with Indians from the diaspora. Similar patterns with Americans/Europeans and locals who are "white". Race is very much part of the social structure, no matter how much people will subdivide themselves with regard to ethnicity.

Regardless of the words they use, most Africans (from Africa) are very aware of being part of a larger "race", and not just as part of an ethnic group. It is inaccurate to say that they don't acknowledge the concept of a "black race" in Africa.

[Huma]

I have never personally met an African who called himself an African.


And I've never met one who didn't.

Which is irrelevant, as external validation is not part of my self-identification process.




To my mind, on a discussion forum nationality, race or ethnicity and culture are totally irelevant. We are discussing ideas - as supposedly intelligent human beings.

So race, ethnicity and culture aren't ideas? Identity is not an idea?

You're being ridiculous.

[snowbird]

I have never personally met an African who called himself an African.



Neither have I; and I had quite a few work for me when I managed a Call Centre in Canada.
For them the continent and heritage they came from was a non issue; I suppose they assumed it was 'obvious'; they simply made it known; they were either Somalian, or Angolan, Kenyan and so on.

Personally, I think the people of African decent outside of Africa, especially those who have never been there, are more hung up on this racial, and heritage thing, than those born anywhere on the continent. And I will tell you why I say this.

You may (or may not) have heard of the big uproar in Toronto about a group of 'Afro' Parents and Supporters wanting the school board to provide an Afrocentric School so that their children can be taught in an environment 'more consistent with their heritage'; this move is meant to address the high failure rate of 'Afro Canadian' children...... well surprise, surprise; this group is made up of mostly Afros from the Caribbean.

Now this does not mean that children immigrataing 'from the African Continent' are not challenged as well; like all other children, they certainly are; but the way 'their community' handles the problem, and they've done it for years (in my community anyway) is that they organize and conduct tutoring and mentoring of peer groups; like I said, they have been doing this for years, and these groups are open to not just 'Africans' but to any student who is challenged academically and needs help.
It is a completely voluntary service, they work on a drop in basis; all instructors and mentors are of African (from the continent) decent. Ironically, they are against 'Afrocentric' Schools, they want their children integrated into the regular Canadian School system.... go figure.

[oecarb]

I've met a few. I've also seen that most Africans (regardless of how which country or ethnicity they are from) they tend to have a stronger connection with "Afro" people born in the Caribbean and the United States.

I have also found this to be absolutely true.

However, I will tell you a little story:

At university I had a Ghanaian friend who he used to come to my home to "buss book". I had a Ghanaian neighbour living across the road.

One evening the neighbour came over to ask me something and my university friend was there. They both jumped back on seeing each other - which surprised me.

After my neighbour left, my university friend was silent for some minutes. Then he said "I will have to look at you differently now. You let an Ashanti come to your house."

The following day my neighbour said "I got something to ask you. Why do you let a Ga in your house?"


I've also seen similar situations where Indians (from India) tend to be more apt to deal with Indians from the diaspora.

Again, this is a similar case. The "Indians" I work with - one from Delhi, one from Uganda and one who was born in Birmingham (of Punjabi parents) seem to be much more wary of each other than with me or our British colleagues. The lady with the Punjabi parents once told me that the other two were from higher castes.


Similar patterns with Americans/Europeans and locals who are "white".

Again, having a British wife, I have had the opportunity to chat to a few Europeans living in T&T. I can tell you that the British women's first choice for mixing (not my wife's, I hasten to add) is at the English Ladies Club at the British High Commission.

.

[oecarb]

I have never personally met an African who called himself an African.


And I've never met one who didn't.

Which is irrelevant, as external validation is not part of my self-identification process.

Agreed. However, I was stating my own feelings.



To my mind, on a discussion forum nationality, race or ethnicity and culture are totally irelevant. We are discussing ideas - as supposedly intelligent human beings.

So race, ethnicity and culture aren't ideas? Identity is not an idea?

You're being ridiculous.

I should have made it clearer that I meant the race, ethnicity and culture of the people doing the discussing.

[Huma]

I should have made it clearer that I meant the race, ethnicity and culture of the people doing the discussing.

That depends on what is being discussed.

As I said, just because some people can't deal with this topic maturely doesn't mean that it should become some sort of taboo.

[serenity]

To my mind, on a discussion forum nationality, race or ethnicity and culture are totally irelevant. We are discussing ideas - as supposedly intelligent human beings.

I should have made it clearer that I meant the race, ethnicity and culture of the people doing the discussing.

But one's perception and opinion of ideas are influenced by those factors which u said are irrelevant. Even u, on many occasions, refer to personal details to buttress a point on a topic.

[serenity]

I dont understand what 'being true to your roots' mean. Are we talking bout ppl who support everything Indian, for example, bec that's where they're ancestors came from?

My experience with identifying yourself 'too much' with a certain culture is that it makes ppl uncomfortable. I'm a traditional gal and intend, when I get married, to wear sindoor everyday. There are a couple colleagues in my office who do it and according to one of them, ppl assume that u are an Indo-centric, close-minded person who does go temple every weekend and listen to indian music only and are a Bollywood fanatic. God forbid u should venture to Coco Lounge wearing sindoor. So, when does wearing sinddor make u less of a trini?

[Zeppo]

I think that it is a two way street...Let me explain:

Let's say people whose ancestors from (say) India decide that they have no ties to India and now consider themselves Trinis. That does not mean that the rest of society recognizes the desires of those people.

There is a relationship at work, when people of Indian descent refered to as "Hey Indian?" then, do you not think that such references have an effect on how they are "forced" to view themselves? At some point in time when the rest of society coloes ranks on a particular group, that group has no choice but to form their own collective identity...

[brag]

I love my Indian/Hindu identity in all its variations and adaptations, and no one will ever take that away from me, not in the USA nor in T&T.

[Falcon]

I love my Indian/Hindu identity in all its variations and adaptations, and no one will ever take that away from me, not in the USA nor in T&T.
But brag, and I hope you dont mind me asking, do you see your trini identity a part of that identity you mentioned, or something different? And if so, which one should take precedence? And if not the TT one first, then how does one justify what a country owes its 'citizens'........(please feel free to ignore this post if you would rather not discuss this).

[serenity]

I think that it is a two way street...Let me explain:

Let's say people whose ancestors from (say) India decide that they have no ties to India and now consider themselves Trinis. That does not mean that the rest of society recognizes the desires of those people.

There is a relationship at work, when people of Indian descent refered to as "Hey Indian?" then, do you not think that such references have an effect on how they are "forced" to view themselves?

But saying 'Indian' in this country is just a descriptive word. It doesnt nec mean that the person who calling the other 'indian' seeks to tie him back to India or anything. Its similar to our habit of calling some ppl 'dougs', or 'chinee', or 'tall man' etc.

Like Sirius brought up in another post ppl interrupting his description of someone to ask him to specify race first. I dont see anything nec wrong with that. It doesnt mean that the person has a fixation with race, it just means that they'd have a better idea of the person u describing if u start with the most obvious - race. If u had to describe a suspect to a police officer, that's where they'd want u to start (aside from gender). Seems logical.

[Zeppo]

I think that it is a two way street...Let me explain:

Let's say people whose ancestors from (say) India decide that they have no ties to India and now consider themselves Trinis. That does not mean that the rest of society recognizes the desires of those people.

There is a relationship at work, when people of Indian descent refered to as "Hey Indian?" then, do you not think that such references have an effect on how they are "forced" to view themselves?

But saying 'Indian' in this country is just a descriptive word. It doesnt nec mean that the person who calling the other 'indian' seeks to tie him back to India or anything. Its similar to our habit of calling some ppl 'dougs', or 'chinee', or 'tall man' etc.

Like Sirius brought up in another post ppl interrupting his description of someone to ask him to specify race first. I dont see anything nec wrong with that. It doesnt mean that the person has a fixation with race, it just means that they'd have a better idea of the person u describing if u start with the most obvious - race. If u had to describe a suspect to a police officer, that's where they'd want u to start (aside from gender). Seems logical.

And that is a constant reminder of how they are viewed....It must have a psychological effect on people to be branded by ethnic category.

[serenity]

And that is a constant reminder of how they are viewed....It must have a psychological effect on people to be branded by ethnic category.

What?! 'Oh woe is me, dat mean man over there call me 'Indian', but ah is a trini to meh bone!' :roll:

If u are a certain ethnicity, what is the big deal if some stranger (its usually a stranger or bare acquaintance who usually use this term of reference) call u 'Indian'? Arent u?

They probably wont know u well enough to know other references that u would be more comfortable with - like if u're a doctor, or a CIC man, or even your name.

And its not ethnicities alone, ppl call ppl pappy, gramps, tants, youthman etc and its only bec u are a certain age in relation to the person addressing u. What, its gonna have a psychological effect on ppl to be branded by their age now? :roll:

[Zeppo]

Listen to what the man say:

"Why can't we understand and appreciate our heritage but at the same time move forward in our own independent culture? We don't live in some far off land of past centuries. We live in a rich, mixed culture of the 21st century."

And I am saying that it is a two way street...even if INDIVIDUALS want to move on, SOCIETY ignored the wishes of the INDIVIDUAL and one way to demonstrate that is by the way INDIVIDUALS of a particular ethnicity are collectively identified by their ethnicity.

[Sirius]

Wow, I'm pleasantly surprised at how this thread has picked up.

What I think I need to make clear here though, is I don't see anything wrong at all with keeping in touch with and practicing your culture. What I find a little off is when people put their interests primarily in the land of their ancestors and not in the here and now we live in. Just a matter of priority.

In regards to the "description" of a person by race, let me explain a little further. These people I talk about would cut off any other description to find out what race someone is, and then be uninterested about anything else, having already formulated their opinion of this person's potential education, career, habits and behavior. To me, this is little more than racism.


All in all though, what I am trying to do is raise a discussion along the following lines: Is it really a good thing to use one's race to identify more closely with the land of one's ancestors than the one born in or lived in currently? Does anybody else see this happening more frequently today than say a few years ago? To me at least, our society seems a lot more racially divided today than 5, and more so 10 years ago.

[oecarb]

Even u, on many occasions, refer to personal details to buttress a point on a topic.

Yes Serenity, But usually on threads like "On race and identity" and "Perceptions of Indians in the Caribbean" and "Interracial Relationships/marriages" and the various other threads on this forum about race and ethnicity.

I have often said complimentary things about India (a country which has many things I admire - as well as many things I don't like) or I have criticised certain things in Africa and have been attacked because people thought I was an Indo with an axe to grind.

In these instances I would also sometimes state my racial/ethnic position.

The bottom line is that I think that, in many ways, we have moved on from the tribalism of most African countries and the casteism of India. I admire the long history and traditions of India and also of many African nations/tribes/ethnic groups. However, there are many practices which, in my opinion, should be expunged - both in India and in these African countries.

For us who grew up in a very small country with a relatively short history (the indigenous people were all but exterminated), we could never fully understand a country where certain practices are illegal but where, because of the size of the country and the remoteness of certain villages as well as the willingness of the people to carry on their traditions etc, these practices are allowed to flourish.

In some remote villages in India there are still practices like sati, bride burning, female infanticide, bridegroom kidnapping, caste discrimination, murder and virtual slavery of the lower castes etc.

In some African countries there are still practices like female genital mutilation (female circumcision), female infantiide, child sacrifices, tribal wars, slavery etc.

These are things that we, as Trinis - regardless of race, would never fully understand. Some of us probably would not really believe they could happen in Mother India or Mother Africa - or maybe thay are not as bad as the white man says.

Then there are the endless threads where people argue whether Indians are Mediterranean or not apparently assuming that Africans are not as diverse in appearance as Indians and apparently ignorant of the fact that there really are people of "African appearance" native to India.

As to what many great black men have achieved (Black History Month et al), I feel it necessary to say that what I have achieved is what is important to me - not the achievements of someone who might have the same colour skin but who is a total stranger. At the same time, I will certainly admit that, were it not for the ones that went before me, I would have had a mountain to climb to get where I am today. I could never have done it entirely on my own.

Like I said of Obama: He might never win the presidency. But he would certainly make it easier for the next non-white person to win. And, if he became president, I am not going to put food on my table just by leaning back and boasting about his achievements. I will still have to make my own efforts.

Also I fail to see how the knowledge that there are a number of millionaire Indians in the world today would help some poor farmer in Rajasthan (or even a poor Indo in Penal - I assume there are still some of these).

.

[brag]

One's identity as an Indian/Hindu does not exclude one's loyalty to one's country of birth. How that is done can indeed problematic but at the same time remains an issue for one's own conscience. You may want to assess the issue of dual or multiple citizenships, and now membership into PIO organizations? Perhaps you may ask the same question of Trinis with dual citizenships. You may also want to ask most Muslims and Roman Catholics, African Shouters, and Hail Selassie followers how they also make the adaptation of some loyalties to the cultures of Arabia, Rome, Ethiopia, etc., and their own birth nationality. Some may even go so far as to say their identity is with the Holy Spirit, the totality of manifestation, and they are free to choose guidance by conscience as a citizen of the world. Far reaching argumment, yes!

[brag]

What is missing here is that people put values in their culture and identify with value and systems that they wish to maintain as their choice in the rearing of children. Where is the issue of loyalty to nationality or even a need for change of ethnic identity?

[sheppy]

I have no problem with people identifying with their 'race and culture' or even researching their roots.

We are social creatures and the need to belong to something or to be associated with something we believe in is important and inherant. When u see a 'white boy' in bling and platinum teeth talkin like dmx or a black kid with a spike collar black eye liner in all black you think "***?"

but they have found something they identify with, that they feel proud to be associated with.
Some people just do not want to associate with things they don't feel a part of or proud of.

case in point: emancipation day, of all the people i see in tribal african wear, it is hardly ever a dougla or mulatto or any indian 'looking' person. Yuh might ketch a red man...

Indian arrival day or eid or diwali; people wit 1/16th indian have on dey kurta or sari or whatnot.

anyway that is a side point ;)

Really there is no harm in identifying with something u feel is important...das why we vote, das why we put on the white dress to get married (even after d curry night :lol:) das why we pick our children names. Problem is when you can't allow others to do so of their own free will, or believe your association to your heritage is absolute and completely defines you as a person.
You will become one dimensional, and a drain on society progress

[serenity]

Listen to what the man say:

"Why can't we understand and appreciate our heritage but at the same time move forward in our own independent culture? We don't live in some far off land of past centuries. We live in a rich, mixed culture of the 21st century."

And I am saying that it is a two way street...even if INDIVIDUALS want to move on, SOCIETY ignored the wishes of the INDIVIDUAL and one way to demonstrate that is by the way INDIVIDUALS of a particular ethnicity are collectively identified by their ethnicity.

I'm not saying there isnt merit in the arguement...just that I dont agree that the situation u offered as an example of it, is really applicable.

[serenity]

Problem is when you can't allow others to do so of their own free will, or believe your association to your heritage is absolute and completely defines you as a person.



And how do we judge if a person's association to their heritage is absolute? Or completely defines them as a person?

I'm curious, what does such a person behave like bec I'm tryna figure out if I know anyone like that and thankfully, I dont think I do. There are some really conscious rastas that I've met, they went to the motherland and everything, and very clear on their beliefs. But even they have other things going on in their lives which define them. And they firm in the belief dey trini to de bone.

[Zeppo]

Listen to what the man say:

"Why can't we understand and appreciate our heritage but at the same time move forward in our own independent culture? We don't live in some far off land of past centuries. We live in a rich, mixed culture of the 21st century."

And I am saying that it is a two way street...even if INDIVIDUALS want to move on, SOCIETY ignored the wishes of the INDIVIDUAL and one way to demonstrate that is by the way INDIVIDUALS of a particular ethnicity are collectively identified by their ethnicity.

I'm not saying there isnt merit in the arguement...just that I dont agree that the situation u offered as an example of it, is really applicable.

Fair enough...

[Zeppo]

Problem is when you can't allow others to do so of their own free will, or believe your association to your heritage is absolute and completely defines you as a person.



And how do we judge if a person's association to their heritage is absolute? Or completely defines them as a person?

I'm curious, what does such a person behave like bec I'm tryna figure out if I know anyone like that and thankfully, I dont I do. There are some really conscious rastas that I've met, they went to the motherland and everything, and very clear on their beliefs. But even they have other things going on in their lives which define them. And they firm in the belief dey trini to de bone.

Preconceived notions.

[oecarb]

I think that it is a two way street...Let me explain:

Let's say people whose ancestors from (say) India decide that they have no ties to India and now consider themselves Trinis. That does not mean that the rest of society recognizes the desires of those people.

There is a relationship at work, when people of Indian descent refered to as "Hey Indian?" then, do you not think that such references have an effect on how they are "forced" to view themselves? At some point in time when the rest of society coloes ranks on a particular group, that group has no choice but to form their own collective identity...

But what happens when you leave that society?

I remember going to the Notting Hill Carnival with my brother once. There was a spot where Trinis gathered and the TT flag was flying proudly.

Suddenly this white fella ran out of a band, plonked himself in the middle of us shouting:

"Oh God! I among Trinis now! Whey-heyyy!"

Nobody said anything. Somebody handed him a Carib. Somebody else gave him a chicken roti. And he just lay back there and started chatting. I don't think anyone there had seen him before or since.

.

[serenity]

Oh ho. I jus realised I DO know ppl like those you're speaking about Sirius. Is like those cretins who support Indian over West Indies in cricket.

That does just boil my blood!
I think very evil thoughts about those ppl.

[oecarb]

Oh ho. I jus realised I DO know ppl like those you're speaking about Sirius. Is like those cretins who support Indian over West Indies in cricket.

That does just boil my blood!
I think very evil thoughts about those ppl.

Exactly, but where should they stop?

Boasting about India's nuclear bombs?
Boasting about the number of Indian millionaires in the world?
Taking a pride in the achievements of Indians generally.
Taking a pride in Indian politics? Incidentally, Sonia Gandhi's Socialist party (Congress I) is ruling India in a coalition with the Communist Party of India (CPI). I am proud of this. :lol:

[serenity]

There are also those who probably never step foot in the US, in jail or in any ghetto but they back up dey gangsta peeps 100% on everything. Its the image they adopt to define them - clothes, music, language, lifestyle etc. I guess its like sheppy said, its what u want to be associated with. I cant understand how u could relate to something that does not remotely resemble your life or experiences.

[oecarb]

There are also those who probably never step foot in the US, in jail or in any ghetto but they back up dey gangsta peeps 100% on everything. Its the image they adopt to define them - clothes, music, language, lifestyle etc. I guess its like sheppy said, its what u want to be associated with. I cant understand how u could relate to something that does not remotely resemble your life or experiences.

The people who work in advertising/publicity are extremely happy that this is so. They can make you buy a beer with your last dollar by making you think it will allow you to live a millionaire's lifestyle.:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: