Perception of Indians in the Caribbean.

[serenity]

I was doing some research on the link between crime and poverty in the Caribbean for a project (if u know of any studies done pls pm me) and I came across this site http://bajan.wordpress.com/2008/01/26/c ... ad-guyana/ (http://bajan.wordpress.com/2008/01/26/can-barbados-avoid-escalating-crime-violence-in-trinidad-guyana/)

Needless to say, I was shocked by the venom of some of the responses. One guy said:


You can worry bout the Indians if u want to! What I DO KNOW, is that whichever the country, it’s usually the BLACKS who are at the bottom of the pile! I don’t say that they’re not sometimes to blame but my aim is to encourage them to strive for better, because the Indians certainly, won’t help them! They’re too busy, TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEM AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY THEY CAN GET!!!!

I was just wondering how accurate a reflection this is in terms of the Caribbean's perception of trini indians. Are sentiments like these in the minority?

[kemist]

was that person commenting about trinidad or barbados?

It is not just an issue of race, but of also the distribution of wealth in society. The poor will always see themselves as being oppressed and the rich as the man described. Look at the tone of his post and the choice of words :


"because the Indians certainly, won’t help them!"
A result of the 'free handout' mentality. It appears he believes that one way to move up in society is with the help from someone. He did give some good advice for people to help themselves.

"TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THEM AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY THEY CAN GET!!!!"
i'm not clear of what he means by taking advantage, but everyone believes they are underpaid in their jobs.

In the case of trinidad those two statements may be true about rich indians, but may also hold true for any of the wealthy class regardless of race. Remember people go into buisness to make money, not to give donations. No buisnessman would overpay his workers. Of course they want their workers to be happy with their jobs, but also dependent on their paychecks.

[Kalz]

This is interesting because having live for Trinidad for most of my life, i never really experienced any blatant racism. I do not consider the regular mauvie lange and ole talk and the occassional race joke anything other that trinilifestyle. However, having lived abroad for the last couple of years, i have to say that i have often been stunned by how Afro Caribbean islanders view Caribbean indians on the whole. Oftentimes Afro Caribbeans have made very racist and unfounded comments about me as an indian or indians in general - to my face. They often do so in common conversation and as a matter of fact, and NOT as a direct insult. However if one does not realize this, then one could easily take it as insult. To me this illustrates that the Afro Caribbean mindset in general is that indians are outsiders still and they are tha Afros are tru Carribbean people. It's ridiculous but this is what is ingrained in them. I have even been in a position where my boss is an Afro Caribbean who left the islands over 20 years ago. He continues to have a subconscious mindset, unrealized by him, that indians are docile and will not speak back or rise up. As a result i have realized that oftentimes he treats me in a subtly intimidating way expecting me to be that docile indian. And he reacts angrily when i am not that docile indian and answer him back and put him in his place. He does not expect that because of his ingrained mindset from 20 years ago. He has not seen the changes in the Caribbean. I say all this however with a prefix. That is, that the impressions left in different islands - Jamaica, Trinidad, St. Lucia etc, by indians interacting with afros is different and perhaps cannot 100% be treated with across the board as the same. This is a very interesting conversation and i hope others will weigh in.

[skl]

Indians in Barbados are very recent immigrants only one generation removed..and they fill a similar niche that chinese/syrians filled here about 60 years ago.

I think there are many trinis who would say the samething in the OP about whites/french creole/syrians/chinese.

you want to see some serious fireworks? ask bajans what that think about trinis as a whole.

that said kalz is very correct...there is a subconcious belief among afro caribbeans (including many afro trinis) that they are true West Indians and that 'East indians' are interlopers

[Chicabonita]

In my opinion as someone born outside Trinidad, I just never understood (and still don't) all this fuss about Indians and Afro-Trinidadians. Maybe is my obvious lack of experience in the whole issue (since I am not an Indian or Afro-Trini) but I do not know why each group seem to believe they are so different from each other. From looks to social interaction to education, from the first time I came here, I always saw both groups of people exactly the same way.

[serenity]

Thats just it Chica, I expect that regardless of how we feel about each other internally, when we leave the country, ppl outside of TnT would see us all as simply trinis. I didnt realise that our stereotyping and the ignorance extend beyond our borders and that we are categorised as indo-trini and afro-trini accordingly. And the hatred extends to the point where persons in other c'bbean countries dread the coming of indo-trinis bec of the expected negative influence.

[BarbadosUnderground]

We owned the blog which was used to start this thread. Firstly one should not use one comment to extrapolate to an extreme position. What we are trying to do is discuss with a view to understanding how Barbadians can manage its society to absorb the large influx of Indians. The immigrant labour is needed at this time to support an expanding economy to use an economic argument. What we are concerned about in Barbados is the high level of illegal immigrants getting into Barbados. Unlike T&T Barbados is a small island with negligible resources. A growing illegal immigrant population is fueling concerns in Barbados about the stress it is placing on our social services, the social argument. Remember Barbados has been 94% Black country for years with a small White and others making up the 100%.

[serenity]

And out of that management discussion, there was some views expressed regarding the social relations aspect between indians and blacks. Was the view extreme? Thats what I'm trying to ascertain here - just how many ppl subscribe to this view.

I have gone to school with many Bajans and with the exception of one truly psychotic girl, they were all wonderful and warm ppl. I never had cause to feel that my ethnicity was an issue. However, these ppl were mostly from a certain class (and from what I understood, area) and certainly not representative of what the majority view might be. Thus my attempt at getting feedback and perspective from others who are more traveled than I and have had more experience.

[sheppy]

ummm there are stereotypes everywhere...
at one point in time in the states they were known for smelling like curry, driving cabs and opening 7/11's
in england the pakistanis and indians had their own areas like hounslow etc and basically did alot of menial jobs, i also think this started around the time they were kicked out of Africa by 'the king of scotland'
now they account for a little more than 50% of the doctors in America alone, but some stereotypes still exist.

and well blacks stereotypes too long and too tiring to go through...but the point being...perceptions can change, some of it may be based on some truths...but stereotyping in general is dangerous...no need to give credence to it

[Somebody007]

I cyar understand why these articles seek to make a distinction between blacks and indians when both races and indians are considered to be black as well.

[Chicabonita]

I cyar understand why these articles seek to make a distinction between blacks and indians when both races and indians are considered to be black as well.

1.Many years ago, a girl I know got very offended when I described her boyfriend as Black to another person. She said he was Indian and not Black. At that time, I didn't know it was such a big deal but it seems like it is. I know better now.

2. This Afro-Trini got also upset when I described him as Black, he said he wasnn't...that he was "red". :?

Now I make it easier and just ask them what race or ethnicity they identify with even if it seems obvious.

[jacques]

Indo-Caribbeans are in a difficult position in terms of establishing an identity.

They are definitely not viewed as "belonging" by other groups. This is reflected for instance in the fact that the word "creole" is used for locally born individuals of African and European descent, but is generally seen to exclude "Indians", notwithstanding the fact that they are technically "creole indians". Many within the Indo-Caribbean community will unsurprisingly mirror the majority view by not considering themselves as part of a supposedly "Afro-centric" Caribbean culture. In the minds of many the societal breakdown and accompanying ever-worsening security situation are an "Afro-creole" problem that "Indians" are powerless to address, and confirms the worst expectations they traditionally have of Afro-Caribbeans. In the current context, the temptation to integrate into Afro-Caribbean culture is near non-existent.

On the other hand Indo-Caribbeans are not generally seen as "true Indians" by "Indians from India". Whereas say for instance white creoles can go "back to the motherland" and blend in, this is not an option for most Indo-Caribbeans, who for a start rarely speak Indian languages. The most "indian" and least "creolized" are therefore still acutely aware that they have "no home to go back to". Recently the Indian government has made it easy for persons of Indian descent to migrate to India (PIO status). The take-up has been near non-existent as far as I can tell. Indians are increasingly leaving the Caribbean, but for Canada, the US or the UK (therefore the "white motherland" rather than the "Indian motherland"). The community is therefore fated to either remain a closed minority in the Caribbean, or become subsumed into the white majority outside the Caribbean. Marriage patterns for Indo-Caribbeans reflect this. Indo-Caribbeans mostly marry other Indo-Caribbeans, but a significant minority of Indian females marry non-caribbean whites.

The traditional position of the Caribbean Indian was for many generations the "bottom of the pile". Having gained access to education many have done well economically. This has attracted intense suspicion and animosity from the traditionally dominant groups. The "Afro-creole" are haunted by the fear that they are failing to establish control, and the rise of "Indians" feeds into this fear that after 40 years of supposedly "black majority rule", "blacks" are descending to the bottom of the pile, and the traditional "black/brown/white" hierarchy is inexorably re-establishing itself. The "white creoles" are haunted by the fear that they are now completely loosing control. In countries with a sizable Indian presence, the traditional Caribbean accommodation (black numbers and white money) is under threat from a group that now seems to have numbers, brains and money, and no inclination to integrate into their traditional power structures.

In such a context "anti-Indian" prejudice, as well as self-segregation on the "Indian" side, are anything but surprising. They feed directly into old racial insecurities.

[snowbird]

I cyar understand why these articles seek to make a distinction between blacks and indians when both races and indians are considered to be black as well.

1.Many years ago, a girl I know got very offended when I described her boyfriend as Black to another person. She said he was Indian and not Black. At that time, I didn't know it was such a big deal but it seems like it is. I know better now.

2. This Afro-Trini got also upset when I described him as Black, he said he wasnn't...that he was "red". :?

Now I make it easier and just ask them what race or ethnicity they identify with even if it seems obvious.

This issue of 'are people other than Afro black?' goes on here in North America all the time; the Wasps see everyone that is not Anglo, East Asian or Middle Eastern as black; but within these races the debate goes on.
I once worked with a woman from Shilanka who was extremely dark skinned (black); she once came into the office all in a tizzy because her son who was back in England sent her a wire that he had gotten married to his long time girl friend. This woman, my co-worker was totally against this marriage because she considered the girl 'black' as her father was an Afro Jamaican, by the way, her mother was white and English so her new daughter was actually of mixed race...... go figure. By the way I later saw a picture of 'the daughter in law', she was what I would describe as a malato, and extremely beautiful; I felt my co-worker should have been getting down on her knees and thanking the girl for marrying her ..... nothing to look at son who by the way was extreamly darker than his wife :lol:

[snowbird]

Thats just it Chica, I expect that regardless of how we feel about each other internally, when we leave the country, ppl outside of TnT would see us all as simply trinis. I didnt realise that our stereotyping and the ignorance extend beyond our borders and that we are categorised as indo-trini and afro-trini accordingly. And the hatred extends to the point where persons in other c'bbean countries dread the coming of indo-trinis bec of the expected negative influence.

Serenity, don't you think that all of this anticipated negative influence by a few is based solely on ignorance? Let's take a look at it, the only two countries in the Caribbean to be originally inhabited by Indos were Trinidad and Guyana. Do any of those two countries have a history of Indos being responsible for the demise of the countries quality of life? No; to the contrary, what history will show is that in both of those countries, while the past establishments tried to keep this race down, they somehow managed to claw their way into success, and power; unlike other races, no one gave them a break, the had to earn it every step of the way.
I think if anything, people are probably threatened by their tenacity, and their ability to achieve.

[Double Trouble]

In my opinion as someone born outside Trinidad, I just never understood (and still don't) all this fuss about Indians and Afro-Trinidadians. Maybe is my obvious lack of experience in the whole issue (since I am not an Indian or Afro-Trini) but I do not know why each group seem to believe they are so different from each other. From looks to social interaction to education, from the first time I came here, I always saw both groups of people exactly the same way.

Just_Me,

So, you have come to the conclusion that you're neither Afro or Indian, bully for you! At the same time, how can you not recognise that there are differences between the two primary groups in Trinidad? You suggested that both groups are identical ( or as you put it exactly the same ) in physical appearance, social tendencies and education. I will not dare recommend an eye examination for you but surely my old arse eyes can't be that bad.

[Chicabonita]

Double Trouble, like I hit a raw nerve based on your reply. No need to get all emotional about it.

It is my personal perception, based on my personal experience. If you see it differently than I do, good for you.

Ask anyone outside Trinidad if they see both groups so differently from each other. As someone commented in this thread or another, Indo-Trinis and Afro Trinis are considered "Black" in the US, Canada, UK, etc. So that's why personally, I do not understand the big issue of some people getting offended over being labeled as "Black" as if the word Black is some sort of insult. :roll:

[Double Trouble]

I cyar understand why these articles seek to make a distinction between blacks and indians when both races and indians are considered to be black as well.

1.Many years ago, a girl I know got very offended when I described her boyfriend as Black to another person. She said he was Indian and not Black. At that time, I didn't know it was such a big deal but it seems like it is. I know better now.

2. This Afro-Trini got also upset when I described him as Black, he said he wasnn't...that he was "red". :?

Now I make it easier and just ask them what race or ethnicity they identify with even if it seems obvious.

This issue of 'are people other than Afro black?' goes on here in North America all the time; the Wasps see everyone that is not Anglo, East Asian or Middle Eastern as black; but within these races the debate goes on.
I once worked with a woman from Shilanka who was extremely dark skinned (black); she once came into the office all in a tizzy because her son who was back in England sent her a wire that he had gotten married to his long time girl friend. This woman, my co-worker was totally against this marriage because she considered the girl 'black' as her father was an Afro Jamaican, by the way, her mother was white and English so her new daughter was actually of mixed race...... go figure. By the way I later saw a picture of 'the daughter in law', she was what I would describe as a malato, and extremely beautiful; I felt my co-worker should have been getting down on her knees and thanking the girl for marrying her ..... nothing to look at son who by the way was extreamly darker than his wife :lol:

snowbird,

So, because some ignorant North Americans, who in most cases can't even point out their own state or province on a map, decide that all people of colour should be in one category, make it gospel? If I am not mistakened the term "black" in reference to Afro descendants, was the preferred choice of Afros over the term "coloured". Even the late godfather of soul, James Brown, had a hit song with the phrase "say it loud, I am black and I am proud". The term "black" at the time had little to do with physical colour but more to do with African Americans seeking out a name to replace the terms "negro" and "coloured"

So when that Sri Lankan woman you spoke about or anyone for that matter who is not of African descent, take issue with being lumped into the "black" category, they are only trying to protect their unique identity. What's so wrong with that? The Canadian government recognises the differences in people and their official forms reflect as much, so why is this such an issue with some Trinis?

[Sirius]

Because there are cultural difference it does not make it a racial difference. Look at the so-called indo and afro "cultures". The cultural differences are really more socioeconomic than racial in origin. We all enjoy the same food, even though because of what we ate growing up, different background families may cook different foods on a regular basis. We dress the same. We talk the same. When a difference steps in, it's a difference with the country people, the city people, the suburban people and the slum people. That's not racial in origin. That's a difference with upbringing and accepted behaviors between social and economic classes.

It is why I find it so silly when people go around talking about race all the time. At the end of the day these so-called race differences are only a product of the environment we grew up in; if two of the same race grow up in the same environment, they'll have similar tastes and approaches to life. I'm saying that from personal experience. Race is more just a means of describing appearance and ancestry than anything else.

Black, white, brown, red, blue, green - does it REALLY matter? Does it REALLY make a difference? Perhaps we should instead focus on the differences between the social classes and raise our children to not see color as a factor.

[jacques]

[quote="Just_Me":180ezzkj]In my opinion as someone born outside Trinidad, I just never understood (and still don't) all this fuss about Indians and Afro-Trinidadians. Maybe is my obvious lack of experience in the whole issue (since I am not an Indian or Afro-Trini) but I do not know why each group seem to believe they are so different from each other. From looks to social interaction to education, from the first time I came here, I always saw both groups of people exactly the same way.

Just_Me,

So, you have come to the conclusion that you're neither Afro or Indian, bully for you! At the same time, how can you not recognise that there are differences between the two primary groups in Trinidad? You suggested that both groups are identical ( or as you put it exactly the same ) in physical appearance, social tendencies and education. I will not dare recommend an eye examination for you but surely my old arse eyes can't be that bad.[/quote:180ezzkj]

Can you tell the difference between a Korean, a Japanese and a Chinese? Well to those groups the fact that you can't would be as strange as it is to you that some people can't tell the difference between an African and an Indian. Differences are mostly in the eyes of the beholder...

[Chicabonita]

Because there are cultural difference it does not make it a racial difference. Look at the so-called indo and afro "cultures". The cultural differences are really more socioeconomic than racial in origin. We all enjoy the same food, even though because of what we ate growing up, different background families may cook different foods on a regular basis. We dress the same. We talk the same. When a difference steps in, it's a difference with the country people, the city people, the suburban people and the slum people. That's not racial in origin. That's a difference with upbringing and accepted behaviors between social and economic classes.

It is why I find it so silly when people go around talking about race all the time. At the end of the day these so-called race differences are only a product of the environment we grew up in; if two of the same race grow up in the same environment, they'll have similar tastes and approaches to life. I'm saying that from personal experience. Race is more just a means of describing appearance and ancestry than anything else.

This was EXACTLY my perception when I came here and still is. I see Afro-Trinis and Indo-Trinis eating roti, playing pan and doing things that one group or the other brought to Trinidad. I could not see and I still don't see a difference. They look exactly the same to me because they all behave as what they are: Trinis!

[Chicabonita]

[quote="Just_Me":26vswsqt]In my opinion as someone born outside Trinidad, I just never understood (and still don't) all this fuss about Indians and Afro-Trinidadians. Maybe is my obvious lack of experience in the whole issue (since I am not an Indian or Afro-Trini) but I do not know why each group seem to believe they are so different from each other. From looks to social interaction to education, from the first time I came here, I always saw both groups of people exactly the same way.

Just_Me,

So, you have come to the conclusion that you're neither Afro or Indian, bully for you! At the same time, how can you not recognise that there are differences between the two primary groups in Trinidad? You suggested that both groups are identical ( or as you put it exactly the same ) in physical appearance, social tendencies and education. I will not dare recommend an eye examination for you but surely my old arse eyes can't be that bad.

Can you tell the difference between a Korean, a Japanese and a Chinese? Well to those groups the fact that you can't would be as strange as it is to you that some people can't tell the difference between an African and an Indian. Differences are mostly in the eyes of the beholder...[/quote:26vswsqt]


If all those groups are living in the same country, behaving in the same, sharing the same cultural aspect, then probably I won't. It is NOT a matter of race or skin color only. But as I said, I know better now and I DO describe both groups separately after realizing it is a big issue.

[Double Trouble]

Double Trouble, like I hit a raw nerve based on your reply. No need to get all emotional about it.

It is my personal perception, based on my personal experience. If you see it differently than I do, good for you.

Ask anyone outside Trinidad if they see both groups so differently from each other. As someone commented in this thread or another, Indo-Trinis and Afro Trinis are considered "Black" in the US, Canada, UK, etc. So that's why personally, I do not understand the big issue of some people getting offended over being labeled as "Black" as if the word Black is some sort of insult. :roll:

Just_Me,

Raw nerve you ask? Just because I challenged your opinion, I have an exposed nerve? On one hand you are positive that you are not of African or Indian descent, so you have a distinct identity. Why does the African-Trini and the Indian-Trini have to share one identity? Maybe you should share some of your personal experience so we can better understand your logic. Why should I ask whites from the UK or North America about how they perceive the people of the West Indies? Many of these same people think we are all from Jamaica, so why should their opinions be relevant in determining our identities? These good folks all have distinct identities, as they call themselves Irish, Scottish, etc, so why are they experts on who we are in this world?

You claim to not understand why folks take issue with being called "black" so I guess you must have an issue with people of African descent calling themselves African-American or African-Trini, instead of the term "Black".

[Double Trouble]

[quote="Just_Me":yukawwxj]In my opinion as someone born outside Trinidad, I just never understood (and still don't) all this fuss about Indians and Afro-Trinidadians. Maybe is my obvious lack of experience in the whole issue (since I am not an Indian or Afro-Trini) but I do not know why each group seem to believe they are so different from each other. From looks to social interaction to education, from the first time I came here, I always saw both groups of people exactly the same way.

Just_Me,

So, you have come to the conclusion that you're neither Afro or Indian, bully for you! At the same time, how can you not recognise that there are differences between the two primary groups in Trinidad? You suggested that both groups are identical ( or as you put it exactly the same ) in physical appearance, social tendencies and education. I will not dare recommend an eye examination for you but surely my old arse eyes can't be that bad.

Can you tell the difference between a Korean, a Japanese and a Chinese? Well to those groups the fact that you can't would be as strange as it is to you that some people can't tell the difference between an African and an Indian. Differences are mostly in the eyes of the beholder...[/quote:yukawwxj]

jacques,

Yes! There are distinct differences and for the most part you can tell a Korean apart from a Japanese or Chinese. You are absolutely right, differences are in the eyes of the beholder, which doesn't give us the right to call them all Chinese or whatever. They don't appreciate folks calling them Koreans when they are actually Japanese etc.

[Somebody007]

I cyar understand why these articles seek to make a distinction between blacks and indians when both races and indians are considered to be black as well.

1.Many years ago, a girl I know got very offended when I described her boyfriend as Black to another person. She said he was Indian and not Black. At that time, I didn't know it was such a big deal but it seems like it is. I know better now.

2. This Afro-Trini got also upset when I described him as Black, he said he wasnn't...that he was "red". :?

Now I make it easier and just ask them what race or ethnicity they identify with even if it seems obvious.


You should have asked them why is it they feel offended by something which is evidently a reality. I remembered some years ago, I was speaking to an indian guy about this same topic...why indians do not consider themselves a 'black' race and he responded to me that we have the same bone structure of a white man...so in other words, we will be more aligned to the white race.....this was me......Oh Really....aligned to the white race....so the white man will decide to by pass all them greeks, italians, turkish, spanish, aryians and all them mediterranean people to consider you white........yuh feel that making sense......the person simply kept quiet after that.

[snowbird]

....... You claim to not understand why folks take issue with being called "black" so I guess you must have an issue with people of African descent calling themselves African-American or African-Trini, instead of the term "Black"..........

Actually I do have a problem with people prefacing themselves with the term Afro. As Oprah herself once said, she remembers the days when she was Negro (as in the slaves), then Black (when someone decided Black is beautiful), then Coloured (when it black became a bad word), and now African (because every black person originated from Africa?).
I think it is absolutely hilarious when people come from the West Indies and call themselves and their offspring African-Canadian; no, you are West Indian Canadian; if you are African Canadian, then the Indos who come from the West Indies must be East Indian Canadians, and what of the creole people? who the heck are they? :roll:.
People my question is.... where were you born Trinidad? then you are a Trinidadian or West Indian Canadian, as to your children? they just plain old Canadian. I rest my case

[Somebody007]

[quote="Just_Me":1qyvsr6q]In my opinion as someone born outside Trinidad, I just never understood (and still don't) all this fuss about Indians and Afro-Trinidadians. Maybe is my obvious lack of experience in the whole issue (since I am not an Indian or Afro-Trini) but I do not know why each group seem to believe they are so different from each other. From looks to social interaction to education, from the first time I came here, I always saw both groups of people exactly the same way.

Just_Me,

So, you have come to the conclusion that you're neither Afro or Indian, bully for you! At the same time, how can you not recognise that there are differences between the two primary groups in Trinidad? You suggested that both groups are identical ( or as you put it exactly the same ) in physical appearance, social tendencies and education. I will not dare recommend an eye examination for you but surely my old arse eyes can't be that bad.[/quote:1qyvsr6q]


Double Trouble, all what you see Just_Me put there, are actually the perceptions of the white race versus indians and negroes.....to the white man, they are all placed in one social/ethnic and biological group....in other words.....to the white man, he makes no distinction between indians and negroes and consider the both groups as 'black'.

[BW]

[quote="Just_Me":1ar6e1mh]In my opinion as someone born outside Trinidad, I just never understood (and still don't) all this fuss about Indians and Afro-Trinidadians. Maybe is my obvious lack of experience in the whole issue (since I am not an Indian or Afro-Trini) but I do not know why each group seem to believe they are so different from each other. From looks to social interaction to education, from the first time I came here, I always saw both groups of people exactly the same way.

Just_Me,

So, you have come to the conclusion that you're neither Afro or Indian, bully for you! At the same time, how can you not recognise that there are differences between the two primary groups in Trinidad? You suggested that both groups are identical ( or as you put it exactly the same ) in physical appearance, social tendencies and education. I will not dare recommend an eye examination for you but surely my old arse eyes can't be that bad.


Double Trouble, all what you see Just_Me put there, are actually the perceptions of the white race versus indians and negroes.....to the white man, they are all placed in one social/ethnic and biological group....in other words.....to the white man, he makes no distinction between indians and negroes and consider the both groups as 'black'.[/quote:1ar6e1mh]

That's not true.

Maybe back in the 70's or something, but now anyways.

[Somebody007]

Breadwinner it is absolutely true....you think if you are a lone Caribbean Indian person living in an all white community in a European country, the people would consider you differently....never happen....they will call the indian person a 'black' man.

[Double Trouble]

[quote="Just_Me":6s5orp6a]In my opinion as someone born outside Trinidad, I just never understood (and still don't) all this fuss about Indians and Afro-Trinidadians. Maybe is my obvious lack of experience in the whole issue (since I am not an Indian or Afro-Trini) but I do not know why each group seem to believe they are so different from each other. From looks to social interaction to education, from the first time I came here, I always saw both groups of people exactly the same way.

Just_Me,

So, you have come to the conclusion that you're neither Afro or Indian, bully for you! At the same time, how can you not recognise that there are differences between the two primary groups in Trinidad? You suggested that both groups are identical ( or as you put it exactly the same ) in physical appearance, social tendencies and education. I will not dare recommend an eye examination for you but surely my old arse eyes can't be that bad.


Double Trouble, all what you see Just_Me put there, are actually the perceptions of the white race versus indians and negroes.....to the white man, they are all placed in one social/ethnic and biological group....in other words.....to the white man, he makes no distinction between indians and negroes and consider the both groups as 'black'.[/quote:6s5orp6a]

Somebody,

I have never lived my life on the whims of others, white or whatever. In other words, people's perception is just that, their perception. It's not reality, just as how every brown person is not Indian.

On a side note do you conside yourself black also, or by your perception Syrians are white? :P

[sheppy]

Serenity...always making trouble in d place...

I also have problems with this Indo-Trinidadian and Afro-Trinidadian classification. But it does come in pretty handy in trying to describe someone....

And who cares if the 'white' man thinks they are both black...who said 'the white man' makes the rules? the 'one drop' rule was the worst of them all.

In Jamaica dey call all indian people C**lies and it is just as casually accepted as red man...
I've noticed in Barbados they are quite rare...i actually saw a couple in chefettes one day and thought ..they have to be tourists.. :lol:

People of indian decent or heritage in the caribbean do have some stigmas associated with them, it is more prevalent in the smaller less developed islands in my experience...except in Trinidad and Guyana where there is major contentions between the two and they form a majority or close second minority. This is really dates back to slavery/indentured labour days...
I remember even in Trinidad indo people sayin how dey own people does dig out dey eye...but dey wud still buy from them than their 'afro' counterpart.....

Case in point was this store (black owned)..i fuhget d name..."I need d money was d tag line" but he had a furniture store..and opened a second one and called it 'singh's' and only indos patronized that one...

[Somebody007]

Double Trouble,

I perfectly understand what you mean by your words.....the reason why I highlighted my comments is for Caribbean people and especially those who have never travelled outside of the Caribbean to realise that our region in socio-economic and political terms, a 'black' region and anyone who lives in the Caribbean are generally considered 'black'.

Do not become disappointed in an instance, lets say you visit Europe, the people refer to you as 'black'....(embrace the 'black' term from now so that you may not feel affected psychologically by the opinion of others)..... Lets just say what you read here was more like an alert and less shocking, if you go outside of the Caribbean.


As in my case, I am not considered or never have been called 'black' by my white counterparts.....However, it is quite clear as well, I will never be considered white....people more or less throw me in the bunch of middle easterners and this view is cemeted by the fact that all my real names are muslim or islamic.

[jacques]

Race and ethnicity are social constructs that have no basis in science. It is therefore not surprising that depending on where you are racial categories vary.

What we call "Indian" in the West Indies is not necessarily what people call "Indian" elsewhere. In Mauritius for instance, Muslims from the Indian sub-continent are not called "Indian" but "Muslims". Many Indian Muslims are descended from Middle Eastern stock, and many look physically different from other groups. Since in India at least they only marry "their own kind", do they constitute a separate race?

What often governs one's self perception of a racial identity is the view of the majority group. To most "non-Indians" in the Caribbean, Indians are "one race". They will therefore tend to view themselves as one group. This is not the case in India which is made up of many different ethnic groups that do not intermix. This is one of the reasons why Caribbean Indians are not seen as truly Indian from an Indian point of view, since they tend to be a "mixed" group in their eyes. You are generally accepted as Indian here if you "look Indian", self-identify as Indian, and have a majority of ancestors from the sub-continent. These conditions are not necessarily sufficient in India.

This is not specific to Indians either. The definition of what constitutes "White people" has varied tremendously throughout the ages and the world. At some point in America the Irish and the Germans were not considered white. Today in Europe most people would count as white anybody who "looks European", but what "looks European" in Europe is different from what "looks European" elsewhere. Many South Americans who are classified as white in South America would not be classified as white in Europe. In North America the "one drop rule" creates insane classifications, whereby anyone who is "known" to have African ancestry is counted as "black". Recent genetic studies however show that a third of those classified as white have identifiable recent African ancestry, and 7% of those classified as "black" have no identifiable African ancestry...

Since "race" in the US has legal implications (in terms of eligibility for positive discrimination for instance), this places many "Indo-Caribbean" immigrants in a strange situation. They would not classify themselves as "black" where they come from, but some will tick the "black" box on census and college application forms and the like. Others will tick "Caucasian", since Indians are a sub-group of the Caucasian group.

We are stuck with scientifically meaningless classifications, which in an ideal world would be abandoned. But those scientifically meaningless classifications are extremely socially meaningful to most. It's a sad state of affairs if you ask me...

[skl]

heh.

Italians,Irish ,Greeks and East Europeans werent officially considered "white" in the USA untill the late 1930's.

but still this thread going off topic.

Its not are Indians black or not. its how are Indians percieved (presumably by non indians) in the Caribbean.

I'm reminded of a heated debate I had with Ghost maybe a year ago.

His idea (as I understood it) was that since only Indians were Hindus, Hinduism could not be considered part of Trinidad culture. In order of Hinduism to be considered part of Trinidad culture it had to have Afro adherents.

My response was that the definition of Trinidadian had to be expanded to include Hinduism regardless of whether there were Afro Hindus or not.

I dont think he ever understood my point.

[sheppy]

Italians,Irish ,Greeks and East Europeans werent officially considered "white" in the USA untill the late 1930's

and then they were pronounced 'honorary whites' yup...go look it up
the race argument is old as dirt

[bluenote492000]

Does the issue of race really matter? Does skin color affect the price of cocoa or flour (a fav saying of my granny). Who really cares if you think you’re white, black, Indian or half alien. I’m Trinidadian and proud of it everything else is trivial.

[KFCSpicy]

A few things needs to be said.

One...stop generalising about what the rest of the world thinks most of us don't have a clue as to the real thoughts behind race or racism or culturalism around the globe.

Two, Sirius is 150% correct in stating that most differences that you all seem to uphold and point out are basically cultural. Just because I does eat roti and wear a sari on Indian Arrival Day and light dais on Divali doh mean I am Indian..correct? So why lump me as being one and the same? You insult my race and individuality in it's extreme obviousness of genetics, (noses, hair types, skin texture etc) by pretending to be blase about it all and not understanding the differences.

Three, how I percieve people of Indian descent in my world in no ones beeswax...that's personal but I would say that as Sheppy pointed out correctly...stereotypes abound throughout the world we call home. Whether they be accurate or not they are there. Not all white men are serial killers but hey most serial killers are white between the ages of 25 to 35. Not all gang members are black but hey look at the Krypts and Bloods they are astronomical in figure.

Four and finally, England has distinctions galore about races. This I am 100% certain of as in my employee status as a council officer (local government) we have to be distinctive and sensitive to what people call themselves. We break African groups down into Caribbean Black, African Black, Dual/Mixed Heritage and Black other. We do it for the White groups too. The Asian Groups we breakdown into Bengali, Pakistani, Indian and the list goes on. The Chinese groups we simply say Chinese and Chinese other. Please do not say stuff like England doh make distinctions as all yuh talking unfounded rubbish.

This is why you all should research more and read more before espousing certain dodgy bits of information in public.

I am not black cause I know the colour that represents black on the colour scale and my complexion is nowhere near that. I am definitely brown in skin colour if we want to get technical. The word Blacks is all we have to diffrentiate us from other races seeing as the white man like to put people into little colour charts. Redskins are American Indians, Dark or Olive complexioned are used to describe Mediterreans and white which is hardly indicative of caucasions complexions is what we use to describe this race.

I am sure there is an old thread similar to this one and I am sure we will be hearing and reading the same old spiel from the same people. I for one enjoy change and distinctions in people I hate no one because of their race but I don't want my race to be misunderstood just because one person can't be bothered to diffrentiate. Where is the respect in that?

[guyguy]

"Indians" are the most despicable people ever to have walked the face of the earth, whether it's in the Caribbean or elsewhere. They should all be rounded up from every corner of the globe, sent back to India, and explode a hundred nuclear bombs, thus ending, once and for all, this scourge of the earth. End of story!

[jacques]

Does the issue of race really matter? Does skin color affect the price of cocoa or flour (a fav saying of my granny). Who really cares if you think you’re white, black, Indian or half alien. I’m Trinidadian and proud of it everything else is trivial.

I beg to differ! Skin colour does affect the price of cocoa. It have people who try to charge white tourists plenty money for cocoa pods they just tief from de tree...

[Somebody007]

"Indians" are the most despicable people ever to have walked the face of the earth, whether it's in the Caribbean or elsewhere. They should all be rounded up from every corner of the globe, sent back to India, and explode a hundred nuclear bombs, thus ending, once and for all, this scourge of the earth. End of story!



Guy Guy a comment like this will get you in trouble with the mods.....what are you doing....I am shocked to see a statement like this coming from you....aren't you not indian yourself?

[guyguy]

Guy Guy a comment like this will get you in trouble with the mods.....Why should it? Are the mods Indians?


what are you doing....Just stating what it seems like most people are thinking.


I am shocked to see a statement like this coming from you....Don't be. That's my mission in life - to be shocking


aren't you not indian yourself?The last time I checked, which was a few minutes ago, my Passport stated, quite clearly, that I am a citizen of The Republic of Trinidad & Tobago. No where does it say that I am Indian. There is no place that states ethnicity. I may be of East Indian descent but does that make me Indian or Trini?

[littleone]

guy, is there a specific reason as to why you feel they way you do?

[skl]

and so the thread gets distracted again.

steups. we all know what serenity meant in the OP. and acting like we dont know what she meant is just a waste.

[guyguy]

This is one post that i am indeed offended by. :twisted:Why should you be offended? I see this being posted daily, though not as bluntly, on this Forum about Afro-Trinis and few, if any, member does or says anything. Why is that? Why are YOU and others NOT offended and say so? I am and I have become so sick of this nonsense that's been going on since the Forum started in 1996, that I've just given up.

Here's something to really get offended about; viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1468 (http://www.ttonline.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1468)

[guyguy]

steups. we all know what serenity meant in the OP. and acting like we dont know what she meant is just a waste.skl,
Help me out here and explain as cogently as possible what it is that serenity meant?

[guyguy]

guy, is there a specific reason as to why you feel they way you do?
Nope! I feel that way about everyone. I'm non-discriminatory in this department.

[serenity]

Wow. I didnt realise things got this far.
Here's the thing eh folks, I just wanted to know what allyuh experiences have been in relation to the perception of Indians by other persons in the Caribbean.
The discussion could have been from the perspective of what our Caribbean ppls think of trinis as a whole, what they think of Indians as a whole regardless of origin or what they think about trini indians in particular.
I was trying to ascertain whether trini indians have a certain 'rep' out there that the Nigerians, for example, have here. AND, what that 'rep' is.
Its not like we havent heard similar sentiments expressed by some PNM grass roots around election time. (And the favour of course is returned by the indian grassroots, but dais for another thread.)

The puzzling part about this is that blacks in Tdad deal with indians daily and have a shared history with them so certain stereotypes would form. But to our Cbbean neighbours who may not be as wide and varied in their dealings with indians, how did they decide that indians are oppressors etc?

And as a side to those of u who taking on Guy and worried bout him being banned or offended by his statements etc, clearly u need to read again. He is making a 'statement' by his statement and does not mean it literally. So relax.

Guy, ah bet yuh didnt know yuh was so loved. Look ppl pleading with the mods and ting on your behalf. :lol:

[KFCSpicy]

All I can say is that out of every race there are losers to the bunch. I doh hate one race over another and I doh suffer from "reverse racism" either. I simply can't stand certain human traits and whether yuh of polka dot origin or stripes if yuh have these traits I eh go like yuh tail unless yuh prove to meh that yuh have mitigating circumstances in yuh life.

Other than that...since living outside of the so called box that was Trinidad Society...I have learnt a lot (so far) about other races that I would never have known staying in Trini. I am glad for this right or wrong my perceptions have changed and new ones have formed and yet still I can still like human beings as flawed as most of us are.

Walk a mile in someone else's shoes and then judge them I say.

[Somebody007]

I have made my contributions to this thread already....you will have to read all the posts on this thread....as I have spoken before about why Indians not perceiving themselves as 'black' along with their negro counterparts.

[serenity]

I have made my contributions to this thread already....you will have to read all the posts on this thread....as I have spoken before about why Indians not perceiving themselves as 'black' along with their negro counterparts.


Oh ho, yes, ah forget to address that. In fact, I think DT and others did. Why should Indians or any other group adopt whatever label another group puts on them? Who is them to tell me what category I fall in?

Another thing, your view does not take into consideration the context of the first post. The questions were on the perception of Indians by other caribbean ppl. In the cbbean, we dont consider ourselvesblack. Our demarkations are different. We have indian, chinee, douglas, reds etc. So, in my opinion, the fact that white ppl see negroes and indians as all blacks have no relavance to the topic.

[Somebody007]

I have made my contributions to this thread already....you will have to read all the posts on this thread....as I have spoken before about why Indians not perceiving themselves as 'black' along with their negro counterparts.


Oh ho, yes, ah forget to address that. In fact, I think DT and others did. Why should Indians or any other group adopt whatever label another group puts on them? Who is them to tell me what category I fall in?

Another thing, your view does not take into consideration the context of the first post. The questions were on the perception of Indians by other caribbean ppl. In the cbbean, we dont consider ourselvesblack. Our demarkations are different. We have indian, chinee, douglas, reds etc. So, in my opinion, the fact that white ppl see negroes and indians as all blacks have no relavance to the topic.


Serenity, you have to take into account the races which are comprised in the Caribbean....

The French Creoles....while the french creoles are white, the word 'creole' was developed to distinguish those whites who were born in Europe and those who were born in the West Indies.

While they are in a small minority today, their views of negroes and indians are that they are one of the same and belong to the same groupping....ie..black

The syrians also consider indians to be 'black'.

Afro Intellectualists in their writings about the black Caribbean have made it clear that blacks in the Caribbean are comprised of Black africans and black indians and makes no distinction between the two....

On a global scale, indians are considered 'black' by many other races.

The view that indians are not considered black is only a matter of perception. Whether it has been shrugged off because of a growing indo population and a shrinking french creole/white population doesn't change what the world and the black population thinks about indian people.

They are black and thats the end of that.....

[skl]

hmm Whites, syrians, black intellectuals, global scale.....something missing .....

so Somebody do ordinary Afro-West Indians regard Indo West Indians as black too ?

[Somebody007]

hmm Whites, syrians, black intellectuals, global scale.....something missing .....

so Somebody do ordinary Afro-West Indians regard Indo West Indians as black too ?


Of course they do....the problem which has occurred over the decades is the fact that indians have refused to embrace the term because of the psychological impact it may have to their self-esteem.

[guyguy]

hmm Whites, syrians, black intellectuals, global scale.....something missing .....

so Somebody do ordinary Afro-West Indians regard Indo West Indians as black too ?


Of course they do....
Somebody007,
What planet you from man?

[serenity]

Serenity, you have to take into account the races which are comprised in the Caribbean....

The French Creoles....while the french creoles are white, the word 'creole' was developed to distinguish those whites who were born in Europe and those who were born in the West Indies.

While they are in a small minority today, their views of negroes and indians are that they are one of the same and belong to the same groupping....ie..black

The syrians also consider indians to be 'black'.

Afro Intellectualists in their writings about the black Caribbean have made it clear that blacks in the Caribbean are comprised of Black africans and black indians and makes no distinction between the two....

On a global scale, indians are considered 'black' by many other races.

The view that indians are not considered black is only a matter of perception. Whether it has been shrugged off because of a growing indo population and a shrinking french creole/white population doesn't change what the world and the black population thinks about indian people.

They are black and thats the end of that.....

Hmmm, maybe my understanding of how we see each other in Tdad is flawed but I dont think the syrians and french creoles etc lump everyone as black. In my mind, anyone who born and grow up in trini adopts our method of categorising ppl. Look chica is a foreigner and she could tell u how we see each other is not how 'foreign' see us. Not all Negro ppl see themselves as black. Some insist dey red, as if 'red' is a race unto itself. Then there are those of us who trace back to a great great great great granddfather who was portugee to lay claim to the title 'mixed' - 'I not black, I mixed'.
So SB007, that is not the end of that as u seem so eager to believe.

[skl]

hmm Whites, syrians, black intellectuals, global scale.....something missing .....
so Somebody do ordinary Afro-West Indians regard Indo West Indians as black too ?
Of course they do....the problem which has occurred over the decades is the fact that indians have refused to embrace the term because of the psychological impact it may have to their self-esteem.

dude I wish you were there when i was robbed in Barbados and the man tell me "alyuh Indians have to learn to share with black people"
you coulda argue that how he should percive me as black too.

I wish you were there when I was going to travel in a taxi and the man tell me he not picking up no damn indian . you coulda argued with him.

Most of all I wish you were there when Cave Hill students were having a protest and the police use tear gas and arrested mostly female Indian students leaving all the big dread jamaicans alone. I guess they were thinking ahead to when they had to strip search them......

these ent no damn anecdotes. I was there.

yes Mr Somebody 007. East Indians are percived as exactly the same as other West Indians....

[Chicabonita]

Serenity:


I dont think the syrians and french creoles etc lump everyone as black.

Oh yes, they do. I am quite familiar with them, just because in public they dont make such distinction, doesn't mean they don't do it . I have seen it, I have heard behind closed doors.


Look chica is a foreigner and she could tell u how we see each other is not how 'foreign' see us. Not all Negro ppl see themselves as black. Some insist dey red, as if 'red' is a race unto itself. Then there are those of us who trace back to a great great great great granddfather who was portugee to lay claim to the title 'mixed' - 'I not black, I mixed'.

My point is that for some reason (in my perception) some Trinis seem to have a hard time categorizing themselves just as Black, but that's not what surprises me...it is the reaction of "how you dare?" type of attitude as if saying they are Black is an insult. Why? Would they react the same way if I categorize them as White? Would they get as upset?

Yes, the way Trinis see themselves is not the way foreigners see them. Unless the foreigner has lived here or is familiar with the cultural/race aspect of the country, they ALL see Indians and Afro-Trinis as Black.

[Somebody007]

Just_Me has perfected my point exactly and she has hit the high note when she said that they may not do it out in the open but behind closed doors, they do actually perceive indians as black.

She is 100% with her claim and I also speak not only from what you will read in caribbean anthropology literature but also from personal experiences.

[snowbird]

Hmmm, maybe my understanding of how we see each other in Tdad is flawed but I dont think the syrians and french creoles etc lump everyone as black. In my mind, anyone who born and grow up in trini adopts our method of categorising ppl. Look chica is a foreigner and she could tell u how we see each other is not how 'foreign' see us. Not all Negro ppl see themselves as black. Some insist dey red, as if 'red' is a race unto itself. Then there are those of us who trace back to a great great great great granddfather who was portugee to lay claim to the title 'mixed' - 'I not black, I mixed'.
So SB007, that is not the end of that as u seem so eager to believe.

If ever there was a case to be made against inter-racial marriages, here it is; it seems like all we end up with is a generation of very confused people :lol:

[jacques]

"Black" is a relatively recent idea, invented after the enslavement of Africans in the West Indies, as a means to justify slavery because of a supposed fundamental difference between "blacks" and "whites". Before the colonisation of the Caribbean, Africans were mostly referred to as "Moors" by Europeans. "Black" is a "white" idea...

[guyguy]

"Black" is a relatively recent idea, invented after the enslavement of Africans in the West Indies, as a means to justify slavery because of a supposed fundamental difference between "blacks" and "whites". Before the colonisation of the Caribbean, Africans were mostly referred to as "Moors" by Europeans. "Black" is a "white" idea...
So, would you feel a whole lot better if I said Moors instead? How many people on this Forum do you think would know what I mean? I have no problem using whatever term you'd like. Just let me know.

[jacques]

I personally have no problem with calling whoever whatever they would like to be called. All I am pointing out is that the national obsession about who is black and who is not, and who is blacker than who, is a very unhealthy leftover from colonial propaganda, and has no basis in genetic reality. From a genetic point of view, humans are one race, with no sub-races. At one time there were several human races coexisting (eg the Neanderthals), but only our race has survived, and every single member of that race is ethnically mixed to some degree. I see absolutely nothing to be gained from the continued perpetuation of artificial classifications.

[BW]

I personally have no problem with calling whoever whatever they would like to be called. All I am pointing out is that the national obsession about who is black and who is not, and who is blacker than who, is a very unhealthy leftover from colonial propaganda, and has no basis in genetic reality. From a genetic point of view, humans are one race, with no sub-races. At one time there were several human races coexisting (eg the Neanderthals), but only our race has survived, and every single member of that race is ethnically mixed to some degree. I see absolutely nothing to be gained from the continued perpetuation of artificial classifications.

Thank you. ;)

[guyguy]

I see absolutely nothing to be gained from the continued perpetuation of artificial classifications. While I agree with this statement, the reality in modern society is that every ethnic group is classified in some manner. Unfortunately, this we cannot escape. It is true that everyone is related genetically but it is not so ethnically.

[bluenote492000]

Funny, I’ve met a few people of East Indian descent in Trinidad who do consider themselves black. It was a bit of a shock and I thought it was funny when an Indian friend of mine was quarrelling about some type of racist behaviour from someone and she was like “Just because I’m black they don’t like me!” I’m like “Uh Vashti girl, yuh alright? Yuh realise yuh Indian right? But if she considers herself black who am I to say no. I’ve even met some Indian girls who would swear they’re as white as Hillary Clinton. Personally, I think it’s the peroxide talking but hey whatever floats your boat I guess.

[Chicabonita]

Personally, I think it’s the peroxide talking but hey whatever floats your boat I guess.

:shock: :lol:

[Somebody007]

The intention of this thread was not to offend anyone but to highlight some global realities and to counteract erroneous perceptions of what Trinis actually think about each other and themselves.

[jacques]

I see absolutely nothing to be gained from the continued perpetuation of artificial classifications. While I agree with this statement, the reality in modern society is that every ethnic group is classified in some manner. Unfortunately, this we cannot escape. It is true that everyone is related genetically but it is not so ethnically.

My point is that whereas ethnic differences do exist at a given time and place, there is no fatality about this, since these differences are not rooted in the physical makeup of individuals but rather their mental makeup. Throughout history different groups have come into contact and when they share a common space for long enough, over time they merge into one group. Spanish South America is a good recent example of this process. Whether we like it or not, it is over time impossible for two human groups to remain separate, notwithstanding the artificial psychological and/or legal barriers that might be put into play to attempt to stop "miscgenation". In other words, history shows us that "apartheid" does not work in the long run. Genetic analysis will show that every human group on earth is the result of the merger of other groups at some point in history.

Faced with this reality, we have a choice - help history or work against it. Whereas completely ignoring the reality of ethnic differences might in some cases lead to misguided policies, I believe that we should recognise ethnic differences as "anecdotal and temporary" rather than "fundamental and eternal". To fail to do so leads to nothing but confrontation, failure and ultimately much greater pain than the short term difficulties of integration.

Now there will always be people who resist integration, generally because of perceived self-interest. A large proportion of our leadership owe their power to a "tribal" system that they encourage at every turn. Should the people they control fail to perceive themselves as one group, at odds with other groups, their power base would evaporate.

Each and every one of us is therefore faced daily with a choice: either we go along with the divisive propaganda, or we go against it. Whenever we are in a position of power (as leaders, as parents, etc...) we can perpetuate divisiveness or go against it. It is easy to go along with "all ah we is one" when the going is good. The real test comes when things are not going so good. In particular when we think we are being individually mistreated by others because of our actual or perceived ethnic identity, the temptation to go back to an "us and them" view of the world will be very great indeed. That temptation must be avoided.

Well, enough preaching for now...

[skl]

curious...I give some real life experiences of indians in the caribbean and everybody ignoring it.

ah well.

[BW]

curious...I give some real life experiences of indians in the caribbean and everybody ignoring it.

ah well.

anecdotes. I'm sure there have been people here with similar experiences, right here is t&t.

I could chime in with my own experiences, but meh. Not worth it. It's likely to be misinterpreted (whether intentionally or not), and used for political gain by the people with vested interests. At least based on what I've read in the threads in the past few days, there doesn't seem to be any rational or objective understanding going on here.

ps, good post Jacques.

[snowbird]

Yes! There are distinct differences and for the most part you can tell a Korean apart from a Japanese or Chinese. You are absolutely right, differences are in the eyes of the beholder, which doesn't give us the right to call them all Chinese or whatever. They don't appreciate folks calling them Koreans when they are actually Japanese etc.

seeing that I can't always tell the difference, I just call them all 'friend' :)

[Double Trouble]

I have made my contributions to this thread already....you will have to read all the posts on this thread....as I have spoken before about why Indians not perceiving themselves as 'black' along with their negro counterparts.


Oh ho, yes, ah forget to address that. In fact, I think DT and others did. Why should Indians or any other group adopt whatever label another group puts on them? Who is them to tell me what category I fall in?

Another thing, your view does not take into consideration the context of the first post. The questions were on the perception of Indians by other caribbean ppl. In the cbbean, we dont consider ourselvesblack. Our demarkations are different. We have indian, chinee, douglas, reds etc. So, in my opinion, the fact that white ppl see negroes and indians as all blacks have no relavance to the topic.


Serenity, you have to take into account the races which are comprised in the Caribbean....

The French Creoles....while the french creoles are white, the word 'creole' was developed to distinguish those whites who were born in Europe and those who were born in the West Indies.

While they are in a small minority today, their views of negroes and indians are that they are one of the same and belong to the same groupping....ie..black

The syrians also consider indians to be 'black'.

Afro Intellectualists in their writings about the black Caribbean have made it clear that blacks in the Caribbean are comprised of Black africans and black indians and makes no distinction between the two....

On a global scale, indians are considered 'black' by many other races.

The view that indians are not considered black is only a matter of perception. Whether it has been shrugged off because of a growing indo population and a shrinking french creole/white population doesn't change what the world and the black population thinks about indian people.

They are black and thats the end of that.....

Somebody,

I didn't know that the world at large care or even consider anything that Syrians say as relevant. All I do know, contrary to what you believe, is that Syrians are not repeat not white.

[Double Trouble]

Serenity:

[quote]I dont think the syrians and french creoles etc lump everyone as black.

Oh yes, they do. I am quite familiar with them, just because in public they dont make such distinction, doesn't mean they don't do it . I have seen it, I have heard behind closed doors.


Look chica is a foreigner and she could tell u how we see each other is not how 'foreign' see us. Not all Negro ppl see themselves as black. Some insist dey red, as if 'red' is a race unto itself. Then there are those of us who trace back to a great great great great granddfather who was portugee to lay claim to the title 'mixed' - 'I not black, I mixed'.

My point is that for some reason (in my perception) some Trinis seem to have a hard time categorizing themselves just as Black, but that's not what surprises me...it is the reaction of "how you dare?" type of attitude as if saying they are Black is an insult. Why? Would they react the same way if I categorize them as White? Would they get as upset?

Yes, the way Trinis see themselves is not the way foreigners see them. Unless the foreigner has lived here or is familiar with the cultural/race aspect of the country, they ALL see Indians and Afro-Trinis as Black.[/quote:2z16d4kt]

Just_Me,

Not that it's relevant or slightly important, but how do these Syrians and French Creoles classify you? I get the impression that you're Latina but I could be wrong again. How do you classify yourself?

What I can't seem to get a handle on is who appointed these Syrians, French Creoles or any of these fair skinned people as the supreme authority on race and colour. Why isn't a Chinese descendant born in Trinidad considered black? Trinidad has Filipinos and some of them can be quite dark in complexion, are they black also? Why is it such an issue when Trinis of Indian descent want and claim their own unique identity?

[Chicabonita]

Not that it's relevant or slightly important, but how do these Syrians and French Creoles classify you? I get the impression that you're Latina but I could be wrong again. How do you classify yourself?

If is not relevant or slightly important, why do you ask? In any case, I tend to not give too much personal information online so no need for me to reply to this since as you well said is not relevant to the topic at hand. ;)


What I can't seem to get a handle on is who appointed these Syrians, French Creoles or any of these fair skinned people as the supreme authority on race and colour.

Did anyone mention they are supreme authority on race and color? I think you need to learn how to respect the personal perceptions of people even those opinions that you may not agree with. As I stated before, my personal perception classified both groups as Black. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant really. Never said I was an authority on the matter but merely pointing my own opinion.

[serenity]

Steups. Why allyuh cah jus answer the question?

Lewwe for argument sake, concede that Indians are blacks. Good. Now, could we get some answers, preferably based on your experiences, like skl put there, with nice analysis, like Jacques, as to what the general perception of Indian-blacks is in the rest of the cbbean?

Better still, are the views highlighted in the very first post, common, or in the minority? Just answer that.

[BW]

Better still, are the views highlighted in the very first post, common, or in the minority? Just answer that.

definite minority

[Double Trouble]

[quote]Not that it's relevant or slightly important, but how do these Syrians and French Creoles classify you? I get the impression that you're Latina but I could be wrong again. How do you classify yourself?

If is not relevant or slightly important, why do you ask? In any case, I tend to not give too much personal information online so no need for me to reply to this since as you well said is not relevant to the topic at hand. ;)


What I can't seem to get a handle on is who appointed these Syrians, French Creoles or any of these fair skinned people as the supreme authority on race and colour.

Did anyone mention they are supreme authority on race and color? I think you need to learn how to respect the personal perceptions of people even those opinions that you may not agree with. As I stated before, my personal perception classified both groups as Black. Whether you agree with it or not is irrelevant really. Never said I was an authority on the matter but merely pointing my own opinion.[/quote:lt5yadnw]

Ok Tante, I agree with you and your Syrian compadres, there is no such thing as an Afro-Trini or Indo-Trini. There are the whites and ah whole bunch of black people, just like any other West Indian island.

[serenity]

I just want to ask something. I dont know if it has been covered in previous posts, if so, forgive me, but, for those of u who insist on dividing everybody into black and white categories, if syrians etc arent technically whites, does that mean dey black?

[Somebody007]

I just want to ask something. I dont know if it has been covered in previous posts, if so, forgive me, but, for those of u who insist on dividing everybody into black and white categories, if syrians etc arent technically whites, does that mean dey black?


Syrians are not white and white people don't consider them black. The white people of the UK for example would rather classify them with the group called the mediterraneans or the 'high' coloured group....The mediterraneans are the Italians, Greeks, people from Cyprus, Spain and Turkey.

[serenity]

SB007 seems to have a preoccupation with 'white ppl' classifications. :roll:

[Somebody007]

SB007 seems to have a preoccupation with 'white ppl' classifications. :roll:


Thats because they count the most in the 'type' of system that we live in.....Trinidad is a dot in the ocean....United States is a vast place and they also got the economic, social and political power....Do you think your opinions will count more than theirs??? If you and someone in the USA were to print books with your beliefs, whom you think the world will read more....yours or theirs??? Its not a preoccupation.....I purposely placed my statements here because there are a section of trinis who tend that there are so 'different' and so 'better' than other people....and yuh know, while I listen to them talk, I begin to wonder...how will these people fit in, if they move to another country.....I remembered some years ago, one friend of mine, he is dark skinned and a pundit by profession and he picked an argument with someone and during the whole fiasco, he is telling the other man he is not 'black'.....so while I listened to all what was going on, I waited till the other man leave then to have a chat with my friend....

I began telling him about experiences I have had and seen across in the United States, UK, Canada and Australia.....I have also had chats with people from these regions, I have seen them in interactions with people of colour and people like themselves.....and in all, when you begin to live outside of Trinidad, then you will appreciate what I am saying by the above arguments.

I also have white in-laws and believe me and in their company, you would hear them talk about the 'black' race....and when I initially thought they were referring to negro people, they re-defined those boundaries for me.....and when we use to sit infront of the television and watch an indian girl sing.....my sister's white mother-in-law would often say.....'Oh look, a black girl singing on the tele'.

[serenity]

SB007 seems to have a preoccupation with 'white ppl' classifications. :roll:


Thats because they count the most in the 'type' of system that we live in.....Trinidad is a dot in the ocean....United States is a vast place and they also got the economic, social and political power....

So should we start wearing grass skirts and live on coconuts and bananas if thats what lots of them think of the Caribbean?
Why should we perpetuate their ignorance? Just now u'd want to argue that all black ppl do indeed look the same bec that's how they see us!

[Somebody007]

SB007 seems to have a preoccupation with 'white ppl' classifications. :roll:


Thats because they count the most in the 'type' of system that we live in.....Trinidad is a dot in the ocean....United States is a vast place and they also got the economic, social and political power....

So should we start wearing grass skirts and live on coconuts and bananas if thats what lots of them think of the Caribbean?
Why should we perpetuate their ignorance? Just now u'd want to argue that all black ppl do indeed look the same bec that's how they see us!


No, all black people don't look the same....thats not my point....indeed people of the developed world see caribbean people as primitive and backward....but we are so in some respects....development wise that is....

What you have to focus on, is the trini beliefs that we are all 'separate' from each other while living in Trinidad....meanwhile, the white people will sit back and watch two 'black' races fight each other in Trinidad, and while they do so, the Syrians, Chinese and local whites continue to remain on the top of the social and economic ladder.

[skl]

I just want to ask something. I dont know if it has been covered in previous posts, if so, forgive me, but, for those of u who insist on dividing everybody into black and white categories, if syrians etc arent technically whites, does that mean dey black?Syrians are not white and white people don't consider them black. The white people of the UK for example would rather classify them with the group called the mediterraneans or the 'high' coloured group....The mediterraneans are the Italians, Greeks, people from Cyprus, Spain and Turkey.

Now I cant match S007's knowledge of how white people think.

BUT

1. The mediterrean group was ALWAYS anthropologically classified as one of the major subraces of the Caucasian race. others being Alpine,Nordic etc

2. EVERY SINGLE classifiaction system included Indians ( north and south, Brahmin and Madrasi) in the Mediterenean group so much so that that subrace is offically known as Indo-Mediterreanean.


Now can people please return to the OP and discuss how ethnic Indians (black or not) are percived by Non Indians (black or not) in the Caribbean----NOT how Americans or Europeans percieve Indians .

[snowbird]

OK, but just before I exit this thread which by the way has gotten way tooooo deep for me, I'll share something.

Personally, I can understand why people who are not used to being around blacks, or chinese, or East Indians, or Greeks or whatever can say...... they all look alike; this is not because they are ignorant, it is because if you are not familiar with certain things, you just see the obvious.

By the same token, people have accents, but I am sure, again to those who are not familiar with us, everyone from the Caribbean sounds the same. It is the same with American accents, while people who live in the US can tell a Northern accent from a Southern accent, from someone outside of the US they all just sound like 'Yankees'. It took me very many years of living in Canad before I realized that we have three very distinctive 'anglo' accents, the people on the East Coast sound very different to the people in Central Canada, and those out West, ofcourse you have the Francaphone accent which again is different.

Why all the confusion? because I guess the human brain is programmed to first, grab the obvious, then work from there.
Oh and by the way I have identical twin nephews who live in another city so I do not see them very often; the are now 28 years old and I still can't tell them apart (everyone else in the family is able to)

[Chicabonita]

007 is just sharing how North Americans and Europeans perceive Indians, he didn't say they are somehow in authority to do it but simply pointing out that in Trinidad we separate ourselves so much into races when in reality, when you leave the island, the reality is quite the opposite and can be quite shocking for some. Sharing my personal perception on how I classify Indo-trinis within this thread and the reaction from some posters, shows the ugly reality that in Trinidad, some people are just obsessed with how they are perceived based on race and skin color.

[Somebody007]

Thanks Just_Me for clearing this up...and you're right I actually stated these facts to get a point across and you have also actually done so as well. My points on this thread was not designed to offend anyone nor to put people in the spotlight, but to identify a harsh and global reality of what is taking place out there. We need to come out of the type of thinking that deals with race and skin colour.....there are critical issues affecting Trinidad...lets deal with that as a people and move forward together as a country.

[Double Trouble]

Somebody and Just_Me,

It's never too late to get an education or change the people around you who influence your better judgement. Surely, all the following sources didn't base their publications on the rants of ah drunk Koolie.

http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/plac ... obago.html (http://www3.nationalgeographic.com/places/countries/country_trinidadandtobago.html)

The Caribbean islands of Trinidad and Tobago, while geographically close, are far apart in their tempo of life: Steel-band music and a multiethnic population, including many of African and East Indian descent, give flamboyant Trinidad a fast beat; small farms and quiet resorts give scenic Tobago a slower rhythm. In addition to oil and natural gas, Trinidad contains Pitch Lake, a huge asphalt deposit. High priorities for the economy are increased gas production, aggressive promotion of foreign investment, and industrial and agricultural diversification.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americ ... 209827.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/country_profiles/1209827.stm)

Trinidad and Tobago is one of the wealthiest countries in the Caribbean, thanks to its large reserves of oil and gas, the exploitation of which dominates its economy.

Inhabited mostly by people of African and Indian descent, the two-island state enjoys a per capita income well above the average for Latin America. Natural gas - much of it exported to the US - is expected to overtake oil as its main source of revenue.

http://americanairlines.wcities.com/en/ ... guide.html (http://americanairlines.wcities.com/en/guide/fun_facts/370/guide.html)

Fun Facts

Trinidad and Tobago

Trinidad and Tobago by the Numbers:

Population: 1,263,000
Average January Temperature: 78 degrees F
Average July Temperature: 81 degrees F
Average Annual Precipitation: 69.7 inches

Quick Facts:

Major Industries: natural gas, tourism
Ethnic Mix: 40% Indo-Trinidadians ( from India ), 40% Afro-Trinidadians ( from Africa ), 20% Mixed
Electricity: 115-220 volts Ac, 60 HZ, two-pin plugs
Time Zone: GMT -4
Country Dialing Code: 1
Area Code: 868

[Chicabonita]

but yuh know, if I did say indians are in the same category with whites, I'd bet nobody would have ever had a problem with that.....

This is exactly what I said before, some people seem to take the term "Black" as some sort of insult. :roll: In the end, is all a matter of perception.

DT, if you dont consider yourself and other Indians as Black then good for you, that's your view and I respect that. Why can't you just accept that people have a different view than yours? Reading your last messages I must say the topic is really affecting you. Don't worry, life goes on even if Somebody and me put Indians in the same category as Blacks. :roll:

[Zerothree]

Posts have been removed.

Users are reminded to be respectful of others and adhere to the terms of the AUP.

This Thread has a great potential for constructive discussion.

03.

[salddiverguy]

i have never seen a white man or woman before,have you

[oecarb]

2. EVERY SINGLE classifiaction system included Indians ( north and south, Brahmin and Madrasi) in the Mediterenean group so much so that that subrace is offically known as Indo-Mediterreanean.

From the Indian High Commission website (London):


India is probably the only country with the largest and most diverse mixture of races. All the five major racial types - Australoid, Mongoloid, Europoid, Caucasian and Negroid - find representation among the people of India.

http://www.hcilondon.net/india-overview ... eople.html (http://www.hcilondon.net/india-overview/land-people/people.html)

They should know, shouldn't they?

.

[skl]

.

you are confusing ethnicity and nationality and you know it.

[oecarb]

.

you are confusing ethnicity and nationality and you know it.

You did say;



2. Indians ( north and south, Brahmin and Madrasi)

didn't you?

[skl]

.you are confusing ethnicity and nationality and you know it.
You did say;


2. Indians ( north and south, Brahmin and Madrasi)
didn't you?

yes

1. yes . and it should be blatantly obvious I'm not referring to everyone with an Indian passport. nor that am I excluding Pakistanis or Bangladeshis from the term "Indian" .

2.that this website distinguishes "europoid" and "caucasian" as two different things has me intrigued . I'd love to know thier reasoning.

[oecarb]

.

But you are saying that there is an Indian race. The Indian High Commission in London is saying that there are five Indian races.

Anyway, you might also be intrigued by this:


Indo-Mediterranean race

The Indo- Mediterranean (or Mediterranean) race - is a division of the major Europeoid race, extending along the coast of the Mediterranean (in Europe and North Africa to including the Sahara), Black sea and further to the east through front Asia to North India. Characteristic features: gracile build, dark-comlexioned skin, dark pigmentation of hair and eyes, usually a comparatively small stature, dolicho- or mezocephaly, narrow face, elongated, ortognathous, wavy hair, wide orbits, almond-shaped eyes, long, straight, or convex nose, thin lips, but thicker than in northern Europeoids. On the northern boundaries of its area it smoothly passes into the Balkan-Caucasian race, on the southwest - into the Ethiopian and the the Negroid, on southeast - into the the Dravidian one.

http://dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi ... 1112860037 (http://dodona.proboards35.com/index.cgi?board=physanth&action=print&thread=1112860037)

[guyguy]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two big genetic studies confirm theories that modern humans evolved in Africa and then migrated through Europe and Asia to reach the Pacific and Americas.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080221/ts_ ... _humans_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080221/ts_nm/genes_humans_dc)

[oecarb]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two big genetic studies confirm theories that modern humans evolved in Africa and then migrated through Europe and Asia to reach the Pacific and Americas.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080221/ts_ ... _humans_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080221/ts_nm/genes_humans_dc)

Yes, coz! :lol:

[NuernbergTrini]

An Indian from India will tell you there is no such thing as an Indian outside of India

[brag]

I wonder what a Spanish person from Spain would say about Hispanics around the world.

[oecarb]

I wonder what a Spanish person from Spain would say about Hispanics around the world.

Depends on the Spaniard. Many Spaniards do not even consider themselves Spaniards - eg the Basques (Euskadia speaking), Catalunyans (Catalan speaking) and Gallegos. Generally, Hispanics are Latino-Americanos in Spain and do come in for some discrimination in Spain as many are illegals and do look different - as many have African or Indigenous South and Central American blood.

[oecarb]

An Indian from India will tell you there is no such thing as an Indian outside of India

No quite true. Technically, a Hindu loses his caste when he crosses the Kali Pani (black water) which many used to interpret as leaving Bharat (India).

However, over 30% of the population are not Hindu and, in any case, India is a secular state. In addition, there are many Indians living overseas these days and many are sending back money to support their extended families.

Also, as in Spain, there are many Indians who do not consider themselves Indian. There are movements for independence in many states - Nagaland and Assam, for instance. And some Sikhs are still fighting for an independent Khalistan. Some of India's 200 million Muslims also have a problem of identity as well as the "scheduled" castes and tribes who are often sidelined.

The scheduled castes and tribes make up over quarter of the population and the scheduled tribes (Adivasis) are


particularly numerous in the Indian states of Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, Chattisgarh, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh, Bihar, Jharkhand, West Bengal and in extreme northeastern states such as Mizoram.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adivasi

Bihar is one of the main states (along with Uttar Pradesh and, possibly, West Bengal) from which the ancestors of present day Indo-Trinis came.

The scheduled tribes are some of the original injabitabts of India.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6b/Kutia_kondh_woman.JPG/180px-Kutia_kondh_woman.JPG
An Adavasi woman.

.

[snowbird]

^^^
Thank you oecarb and others for sharing, as a non-indo Trini I find all of this very interesting and informative.

Is any of this taught in Trini schools?

[guyguy]

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two big genetic studies confirm theories that modern humans evolved in Africa and then migrated through Europe and Asia to reach the Pacific and Americas.http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080221/ts_ ... _humans_dc (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080221/ts_nm/genes_humans_dc)

Yes, coz! :lol:
We mite be related even closer. Yuh never know nah. Trinidad rell small and when fellas our age waz small, it had less dan haff the amount of people living on the island too. Not so?

[Double Trouble]

but yuh know, if I did say indians are in the same category with whites, I'd bet nobody would have ever had a problem with that.....

This is exactly what I said before, some people seem to take the term "Black" as some sort of insult. :roll: In the end, is all a matter of perception.

DT, if you dont consider yourself and other Indians as Black then good for you, that's your view and I respect that. Why can't you just accept that people have a different view than yours? Reading your last messages I must say the topic is really affecting you. Don't worry, life goes on even if Somebody and me put Indians in the same category as Blacks. :roll:

Just_Me,

As Ronnie used to say, there you go again! Show me where I made claim to being "Indian"! The point I have been trying to make is that to lump all people of colour into one category, seems quite disrespectful to me. You are entitled to personal perceptions but to come on a public forum and try to bully home these personal perceptions, is what gets my goat. Just imagine yourself being judged by others who are totally clueless about your background and you may understand where I am coming from.

[punjabtrini]

I wonder what a Spanish person from Spain would say about Hispanics around the world.

Spaniards are the cradle and most people who speak Spanish outside of Spain are not Spanish nor Spaniard. They just speak Spanish (language) speaking but are usually mestizos or mulatos or tri-racial per ethnicity (majority).

Hispanic is just a US way to lump all Spanish speaking people together!
In T&T caste was never a major problem because many people realized that when they crossed the Kalapani (black water-ocean) or ever before, they could give another caste identification and who would know so they 'try ah 'ting' to get over!
According to the British ethnic idenntification system, both Indians and Africans were 'black' so the only ID was ethnic but they both black.

[oecarb]

This is exactly what I said before, some people seem to take the term "Black" as some sort of insult. :roll: In the end, is all a matter of perception.

DT, if you dont consider yourself and other Indians as Black then good for you, that's your view and I respect that. Why can't you just accept that people have a different view than yours? Reading your last messages I must say the topic is really affecting you. Don't worry, life goes on even if Somebody and me put Indians in the same category as Blacks. :roll:

Does it really matter? Classifications change from country to country and over time.

Like I said before:
In Trinidad I am mixed - Indo-Trinis called me black or creole.[/*:m:1d35zaae]
In the UK, I am black Afro-Caribbean.[/*:m:1d35zaae]
In the USA I am black[/*:m:1d35zaae]
In Spain I am moro - North African.[/*:m:1d35zaae]
In Namibia and South Africa I am coloured - neither black nor white.[/*:m:1d35zaae]

At the end of the day, I am the same person - someone's father, someone's husband, someone's son, someone's brother.

And, as I said before, as long as I have food on my table, a comfortable bed and a warm house and my wife happy, you could call me what the hell you want. :lol: :lol: :lol:

.

[Chicabonita]

The point I have been trying to make is that to lump all people of colour into one category, seems quite disrespectful to me

Exactly, to you. If it bothers you so much, stop quoting me on a thread that I haven't post in days or just plain ignore my posts. Is THAT simple.


You are entitled to personal perceptions but to come on a public forum and try to bully home these personal perceptions, is what gets my goat.

Can't help you with that. Get a chill pill.


Just imagine yourself being judged by others who are totally clueless about your background and you may understand where I am coming from.

That's the difference between you and me. I don't give a damn about what others think about me. They can call me Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Indian...whatever! I don't care in the least. I certainly don't consider "judgment" the fact that someone classifies me in a certain group and I disagree. I don't live by what other people say.

[Chicabonita]

Does it really matter?

It doesn't matter in the least! Just expressing my personal perception. It is obvious by this thread that for some people it matters a lot. :lol:


And, as I said before, as long as I have food on my table, a comfortable bed and a warm house and my wife happy, you could call me what the hell you want. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Exactly. :lol:

[BW]

I would have to side with DT on this one (?!?!?!?). It's offensive to be called something you're not.

I wouldn't particularly like for all Caribbean people to be called a Jamaican, just as my Indian friends wouldn't like to be called "Paki", and my Korean friends wouldn't like to be called Chinese. There's a difference between ethnic groups, and it's just annoying that some people do not feel it "worthy" enough to care. It's a subtle form of discrimination, and indeed is a means of keeping the "others" in their place.

We should try to promote understanding. Stamp out the racism and generalization, and appreciate the individual. Acceptance is the equivalent of endorsement, and ideally, I would hope every member of this forum stands up whenever they see such injustices taking place.

[serenity]

I would have to side with DT on this one (?!?!?!?). It's offensive to be called something you're not.

I wouldn't particularly like for all Caribbean people to be called a Jamaican, just as my Indian friends wouldn't like to be called "Paki", and my Korean friends wouldn't like to be called Chinese. There's a difference between ethnic groups, and it's just annoying that some people do not feel it "worthy" enough to care. It's a subtle form of discrimination, and indeed is a means of keeping the "others" in their place.

We should try to promote understanding. Stamp out the racism and generalization, and appreciate the individual. Acceptance is the equivalent of endorsement, and ideally, I would hope every member of this forum stands up whenever they see such injustices taking place.

Well said.

[oecarb]

I wouldn't particularly like for all Caribbean people to be called a Jamaican, just as my Indian friends wouldn't like to be called "Paki", and my Korean friends wouldn't like to be called Chinese. There's a difference between ethnic groups, and it's just annoying that some people do not feel it "worthy" enough to care. It's a subtle form of discrimination, and indeed is a means of keeping the "others" in their place.

We should try to promote understanding. Stamp out the racism and generalization, and appreciate the individual. Acceptance is the equivalent of endorsement, and ideally, I would hope every member of this forum stands up whenever they see such injustices taking place.


I don't particularly like being called a Jamaican or an African.

But, at the end of the day, I have to accept that I was born and bred in a country that is about 100 times the size of George Bush's ranch in Texas and that my country has a population about the size of a decent English town or a small city.

These days I am usually much more surprised when people have actually heard of Trinidad and Tobago.

Most people here have heard of Brian Lara but many do not know which country he is from.

They have seen Sir Trevor McDonald on TV but many people don't know where he is from. When the comedians imitate him, they often put on an African accent.

I have met uneducated people in T&T who thought that England, Canada, America etc were all part of some land called Foreign.

So what do I do? Do I waste my time trying to educate the ignorant multitudes of Britain, teaching them Geography and History? Are they really that interested? Do they believe me when I say Jamaica is 1,000 miles from Trinidad and Tobago - any more than Columbus believed the Native Americans when they said he was not in India?

Hundreds of years later, they were still being called Indians and we were called West Indians.

Just because some crazy white man lost his way, as a Sioux chief once said on British TV. :lol: :lol:

[brag]

Some people also like to have an ethnic identity in addition to their national identity, and they use ethnicity and nationality interchangeably as a way of identifying themselves. It is not out of ignorance that they do so, but rather out of pride in their history.

Some may also go so far as to celebrate certain occasions that distinctly belong to their country of origin. Yet no one complains about these celeberations or the need to eliminate them because of ignorance.

We join in celebrating many ethnic festivities which celebrate pride in ethnicity and national backgrounds. Why not call for the elimination of these celebrations in lands where they do not belong?

The US is a good example of where most people feel free to celebrate their identities derived from their histories.

[oecarb]

Some people also like to have an ethnic identity in addition to their national identity, and they use ethnicity and nationality interchangeably as a way of identifying themselves. It is not out of ignorance that they do so, but rather out of pride in their history.

Brag, as soon as you leave your own country, your culture and ethnicity begin to get diluted.

First off, if a ship arrived to take people from Uttar Pradesh to Trinidad (10,000 miles away), who would be first in line to get on this ship? Them big-time Brahmins who doing OK? Or the ones that were discriminated against and catching their nennen. So you talking low-caste and members of the scheduled tribes, not so? And they not going to want to preserve everything in the culture they leaving behind.

Next, once they get on that ship and nobody know who they are, they could become whatever caste they want to. So Chunilal could change his name to Maharaj and nobody would argue.

Then, within ten years of the Indians arriving in Trinidad, the Canadian Mission arrived to convert them to Christianity (Presbyterianism). By 1890, the CM had built schools (Grant's School, Naparima College and Naparima Girls High School in San Fernando, Iere College for girls in Siparia etc) and places of worship. They educated the sons and daughters of the Indian immigrants so that Indo-Trini girls were going to secondary school and even to university by the early 1900's.

By the mid-1940's T&T had its first Indo-Trini female medical doctor in San Fernando - Dr Stella Abidh. In fact, she was most probably the first female doctor in T&T. This is when village girls in India were still getting married at age 10.

Then there was carnival. When I was a kid, one of the leading bandleaders in San Fernando was Bobby Mohammed. Though, it has to be said that Carnival is a European thing. Carnival in Goa (http://www.aryabhatt.com/fast_fair_festival/Festivals/The%20Goa%20Carnival.htm) (which used to be Portuguese India) is now a big tourist attraction.

Then, how many Hindus in T&T are still vegetaians?

So maybe the ancients were right. Cross the Kala Pani and you lose your culture.

[brag]

Yes, dilution but not extinction. Hinduism encourages adaptations, but not extinction of its basic principles founded on Sanathana Dharma which is universal. Hinduism only points the way of Sanathana Dharma. Each decides for himself.

[oecarb]

Yes, dilution but not extinction. Hinduism encourages adaptations, but not extinction of its basic principles founded on Sanathana Dharma which is universal. Hinduism only points the way of Sanathana Dharma. Each decides for himself.

Brag, I did say diluted.

No one expects extinction.

My main points on this thread are that:

1. Hinduism as practised in T&T has a Trini flavour - that culture is influenced by where you are and
2. No one can expect to have a universal recognition of their particular identity - it does not matter whether Joe bloggs thinks you are south Mediterranean or not.

As you say, each decides for himself.

[brag]

Hinduism as practiced every where has its own flavor, and so are Islam, Christianity and Buddhism. I am not sure I understand the point you are trying to make in reference to an identity as Indian?

[oecarb]

Ski was arguing that there were official clasfication systems that classify Indians ( north and south, Brahmin and Madrasi) in the Mediterenean group while breadwinner was arguing that there's a difference between ethnic groups, and it's just annoying that some people do not feel it "worthy" enough to care.

My own take is that people will classify you how they want to and we can argue as much as we want that we do not fit their particular classification but we are only wasting our breath.

Trying to convince a redneck from Arkansas that a Madrassi is Mediterranean (and not just black) is just as futile as me trying to convince a South African that I am black and not coloured - so I prefer to stick to my own private view of my identity - and to hell with what other people think of me.

Incidentally in Southern Africa you are:
black if you have fifteen or sixteen great great grandparents who are from the African tribes.
white if you have fifteen or sixteen great great grandparents who are white
coloured if you are anything else - including Indian

[brag]

Thanks

[brag]

Hi oecarb, you may want to see how the paragraph below fits in the discussion about the Indian/Hindu identity. If it does not apply, please feel free to ignore it.

"Metropolitan Gregorios asked the Pope John Paul II what he thought was the reason for such a small percentage of Indians having converted to Christianity although it had been in India for so long. The Pope said to him the reason was that the Indian mind was not developed enough to understand the subtlety of thought of St. Gregory of Nyssa or of St. Thomas Aquinas. Somewhat taken aback Metropolitan Gregorios asked the Pope if he had read Shankara or Nagarjuna. He was immediately shown out of the room where the audience was taking place."

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Glimpses_XIII.htm

[KFCSpicy]

So because de Pope say so is so? :roll: Sigh!

[Double Trouble]

[quote="Double Trouble":y7xh7ak1]The point I have been trying to make is that to lump all people of colour into one category, seems quite disrespectful to me

Exactly, to you. If it bothers you so much, stop quoting me on a thread that I haven't post in days or just plain ignore my posts. Is THAT simple.


You are entitled to personal perceptions but to come on a public forum and try to bully home these personal perceptions, is what gets my goat.

Can't help you with that. Get a chill pill.


Just imagine yourself being judged by others who are totally clueless about your background and you may understand where I am coming from.

That's the difference between you and me. I don't give a damn about what others think about me. They can call me Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, Indian...whatever! I don't care in the least. I certainly don't consider "judgment" the fact that someone classifies me in a certain group and I disagree. I don't live by what other people say.[/quote:y7xh7ak1]



You win! You know best!

[sheppy]

black if you have fifteen or sixteen great great grandparents who are from the African tribes.
white if you have fifteen or sixteen great great grandparents who are white
coloured if you are anything else - including Indian


wow...what a standard...i'm not sure if it is possible to have 15 or 16 great great grandparents..
i no maths expert or anything..but need some clarification here OE.

For those who remember the long thread strauss an I started on the origin of people and the races etc... i think we might have to bring it back...can an admin retreive it?

I think alot of blacks and indians would be amazed (and not pleasantly) to discover where we all originated from...analysis of mtDna and racial identification based on skull structure, formation of the continents how they drifted, movements and migrations of people from one land mass to another and the eventual evolution of racial clines (atleast 500 years old)

[oecarb]

black if you have fifteen or sixteen great great grandparents who are from the African tribes.
white if you have fifteen or sixteen great great grandparents who are white
coloured if you are anything else - including Indian


wow...what a standard...i'm not sure if it is possible to have 15 or 16 great great grandparents..
i no maths expert or anything..but need some clarification here OE.

2..... parents
4..... Grandparents
8..... great grandparents
16 ...great great grandparents

[oecarb]

Hi oecarb, you may want to see how the paragraph below fits in the discussion about the Indian/Hindu identity. If it does not apply, please feel free to ignore it.

"Metropolitan Gregorios asked the Pope John Paul II what he thought was the reason for such a small percentage of Indians having converted to Christianity although it had been in India for so long. The Pope said to him the reason was that the Indian mind was not developed enough to understand the subtlety of thought of St. Gregory of Nyssa or of St. Thomas Aquinas. Somewhat taken aback Metropolitan Gregorios asked the Pope if he had read Shankara or Nagarjuna. He was immediately shown out of the room where the audience was taking place."

http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Glimpses_XIII.htm

Brag, the following from your link sums up my feelings exactly.


Macaulay wanted only Babus: men, as he said, Indian in colour, but British in the way they thought. But the British masters sat rather heavily on these babus and left a deep imprint of their ugly bottoms on them. So, if you see the babus going about with the ugly imprint of the bottoms of their erstwhile masters, you should not be surprised. The slaves are rather proud of it.

Naturally, the ‘children of Macaulay’ grew up ashamed of their civilisation, of their ancestors, while they felt overwhelmed by the ‘great achievements’ of Europe.

Nirad Choudhury's Continent of Circe is perhaps the best known outcry of this sense of shame among westernised Indians. But, then, he was an Anglophile. His pride? That he knew the names of every street in London! Did he know anything about India? No. Not till he was old. Not much has changed even after the country became independent. Why? Because power passed into the hands of these very babus—the Nirad Choudhurys of India.

So, generations of Indians grew up in this country, fascinated by the achievements of the West, of Britain in particular. Did the ‘liberators’ of India change Macaulay's educational system? Not at all. Why? Because they knew even less than Nirad Choudhury of their country. What has happened to Macaulay's children? Nirad Choudhury is no more. He died a heartbroken man. He became one of the bitterest critics of Western civilisation, particularly British.

You see it daily on forums such as this.

On the one hand, people boast about their culture, their heritage - Indian, African or other. And on the other hand, they boast about their "educational achievements" - achievements in a British educational system that has spent years battering their traditions and their cultures. But an educational system nevertheless that allows them to do well in the West.

But then, the Romans did the same to the British. And the North African (Muslim) Moors did the same to the Spanish and Portuguese. Gibraltar got its name Jub ul Tariq (Tariq's rock) - named by the Moors and the Portuguese still say Oxalá (pronounced Oshallah) meaning insh'Allah (God willing). The Spanish say Ojalá.

Which is why I say that we have to define our own cultural identities and to hell with what other people say.

As for Pope John Paul II, I was brought up as a Catholic and his attitude does not surprise me.

.

[brag]

I wonder how many of us see the connection between bad/poor leadership and the unacceptable behaviors of later generations, and which many of us are still trying to clean up or change. How little we know about how many may be immune to the effects of bad leadership and many others may not. Trinidad can be a prime example with crime. The early slaves were believed to have no souls, and for hundreds of years they were treated as chattels, the effects of which may still linger on.

[Falcon]

Trinidad can be a prime example with crime. The early slaves were believed to have no souls, and for hundreds of years they were treated as chattels, the effects of which may still linger on. how so?

[brag]

Yes, I realized the two sentences were improperly juxtaposioned. If you are looking for what I meant by crime in Trinidad study the slogan, "Massa Day Done" which contains the subtle command "to do as you please--you are now the new masters."

[KFCSpicy]

:?


So yuh doh think further explanation of why yuh think this phrase Massa done has meaning anywhere in today's crime explosion?

I kinda need to know why yuh think it was needed to put that in yuh last post Brag.

[oecarb]

Trinidad can be a prime example with crime. The early slaves were believed to have no souls, and for hundreds of years they were treated as chattels, the effects of which may still linger on.

Yes, I realized the two sentences were improperly juxtaposioned. If you are looking for what I meant by crime in Trinidad study the slogan, "Massa Day Done" which contains the subtle command "to do as you please--you are now the new masters."

Interesting.

Trinidad and Tobago (run by ex-slaves) ranked 8th in the world for homicides in 2006 (30.38 per hundred thousand of population).

Colombia and Venezuela, which are not run by ex-slaves were 7th (39.3) and 5th (42).

Barbados, run by ex-slaves was 27th (7.49 per hundred thousand population).

I can't understand where "Massa day done" fits into this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homicide_rate)

[brag]

I initiated a discussion about "Massa Day Done" as a slogan some time ago on this forum. As a slogan, it needed the necessary education about its meaning, but it was thrown out with no follow up, and it was used as a cannon for many. The slogan belonged in schools with the full responsibilities of explaining its true intent, if there ever was one, other than that which was understood by many who used it to assert themselves in ways that perhaps were not intended. Just throwning it out in an emotionally charged atmosphere when the cry for independance was an emotional force brought T&T us to where it is today. No doubt about it.

[brag]

oecarb, please look at what you did with my post after I explained the juxtaposition.

[sheppy]

Brag..i would also like to see this extrapolation of the crime explosion (predominantly among blacks) explained by the transition from bonded to free.


I cannot say that i agree....in my opinion the escalation of crime into what it has become today has been a gradual (unchecked) phenom. I can't see the relation.
I would hazard it is more about unequal distribution of wealth, drug trade and the breakdown of the traditional family unit and values.

[brag]

Don't forget the problem of new undesirable attitudes that eventually shape behaviors. The attitudes of leaderships can be most influential in how shifts in behaviors escalate to become problems.

[KFCSpicy]

sheppy can you interpret Brag's post for me please he lorse meh. :shock:

[brag]

Here is another exmple that may help. When someone asked Mr Manning about a particular incident of crime in T&T, he brushed it off by saying that he was on his way to church. That is an attitude that conveyed a certain message to the masses about crime, and it can be learned to create a climate of leadership that affects all in ways they may not understand. The same goes for Mr Manning's attitudes about crimes involving some family memebers, as if they should not be investigated and brought to justice.

[KFCSpicy]

Brag,

Call me ignorant eh...but what does all of this have to do with the topic at hand? :o

[brag]

No, you are not ignorant. They are all connected, but I will stop here, as spamming can be an interpretation.

[sheppy]

Since there is a school of thought that it was grenadians the migrated here as well as other deportees that are responsible for crime. I say, regardless, if there was proper law enforcement..there wud be no lawlessness. Excuses, excuses.

How can we determine which families are direct descendants of slaves and which are not?
To bring the thread back on Topic..i have a great grandfather who came to Trinidad from India not on a slave ship, but heard fortunes could be made and made his way across the kali pani...
consequently he found things were not the way they were told, made a couple kids and went back. :lol:
my point is, we all seem to be chalking everything up to origin and though it may form some basis, i believe this country has dragged some of their issues along into new ones. This latest theory (brag) however eludes my logic.

[brag]

What latest theory are you speaking about, sheppy?

[sheppy]

Trinidad can be a prime example with crime. The early slaves were believed to have no souls, and for hundreds of years they were treated as chattels, the effects of which may still linger on.

[brag]

Please see my response to the inquiry by Falcon. You are doing the same as oecarb. There is a name for that.

[Zeppo]

I cyar understand why these articles seek to make a distinction between blacks and indians when both races and indians are considered to be black as well.

1.Many years ago, a girl I know got very offended when I described her boyfriend as Black to another person. She said he was Indian and not Black. At that time, I didn't know it was such a big deal but it seems like it is. I know better now.

2. This Afro-Trini got also upset when I described him as Black, he said he wasnn't...that he was "red". :?

Now I make it easier and just ask them what race or ethnicity they identify with even if it seems obvious.

Well you certainly made a very profound observations about Trinidad's culture regarding race, color, and ethnicity. Trinidadians will argue about they not being racist to the rest of the world, when in fact they have found a way to side step racism by calling it other names.

[KFCSpicy]

Amen to that.