Is this Murder or Manslaughter?

[KFCSpicy]

Mom loses baby after attack by schoolboys

Nikita Braxton South Bureau


Wednesday, January 30th 2008

THE pregnant woman who was hit on her waist by a stone, allegedly thrown by schoolboys, has lost her baby.

Carlene O'Brien, of Piarco, who was four months pregnant, received a D&C (Dilation and Curettage) procedure by doctors yesterday to remove the foetus from her womb.

Doctors told her the baby died from being hit by a blunt object.

O'Brien, 22, said she felt empty due to her loss, but was filled with questions. Her number one query was how would she now get justice.

O'Brien was hit during a fracas at the Chaguanas Senior Comprehensive School, in which a number of pupils threw stones in an effort, it was claimed, to rescue a schoolmate who was being beaten by two women and a man.

The boy, who it was said started the fracas, claimed he was the victim and was detained for a night at the Chaguanas Police Station. He was later released and is back at school.

Last week the situation looked hopeful for O'Brien, as she was given injections while at the Eric Williams Medical Sciences Complex in Mt Hope in order to stop the contractions in her womb, and was allowed to go home. At the weekend, she said, she began bleeding heavily. An ultra sound was performed and doctors were unable to detect a heartbeat for the baby.

PC Bissoon of the Chaguanas CID is investigating.


Or should this little boy be let off with a caution and sent home? Ah mean he didn't set out to murder the woman, but should a lesson not be taught here to kids that all actions without thought have dire consequences?

What do you all think?


Puhsonally I think we should stone most kids but that's jess me eh! :roll:

[vaio]

i say murder....damn it!!............those children have gangs and they attack others....hold them responsible....a life lost...... :evil:

and i ent agree with stoning most kids..... :roll:

[deathwinger]

This is PNM country.
If he or his family is an avid PNM supporter, he shall get away scott free.

Although, I'd probably have stones thrown at his testicles for an hour as punishment.

[snowbird]

This is PNM country.
If he or his family is an avid PNM supporter, he shall get away scott free.

Although, I'd probably have stones thrown at his testicles for an hour as punishment.

It's not murder as they certainly didn't set out to kill the baby; it doesn't even sound like they set out to kill anyone; it's just hooliganism gone terribly wrong.
Manslaughter? maybe, or some sort of 'criminal action causing death'; but then too this is a fetus we talking about (don't know if your laws consider it a life yet :roll: ); so who knows, the charge might simply boil down to the pain and anguish caused the mother :roll: ....... ah doh know, buh some lawyer go make money and ah name on dis one :roll:

[snowbird]

This is PNM country :roll: :roll: .

By the way ah hear one ah dem tourist who come tuh tong, stub dey toe on ah mango tree yesterday :evil:
Darm PNM, if dey wuzzen in power, dat wudda never happen :twisted:

[deathwinger]

Again, understand that right here, right now,


This is PNM country. Don't complain. Your cries are falling on deaf ears.

[KFCSpicy]

:roll: ^^^^ utterly pointless and obsessive. :roll:

All yuh like to feel sorry for these mini animals. How they start is how they go end. If no one eh correct them harshly then they will go through life thinking they could stone anyone and then one day somebody go dead or they will get shot (case in point grown man stoning another grown man for a bad drive...what gave him the right?)

Is to stamp it out from now at this age and then hopefully get them into some serious curfew and deprive them of the things they like most, tv, cinema, outings with friends except school...yuh arse is to go no where. And yuh like to pelt stone? Go and dig de land and re pack de dirt every evening after yuh done yuh home work.

Parents can't be bothered to regulate the behaviour of their smelly kids and then all yuh want me to feel sorry for them because they are mere youngsters? If it was a 20 something year old man all yuh wouldah ask if he was from Lavantee or if he in ah gang. One rule for some and so on ent? :roll: :evil: Not in my book.

Punish the lot of them cause they will never learn. Yuh think losing an unborn child go be something she go get over? Yuh could compensate this woman in any form? :shock: Please she may not get any solace from them being punished but she will get justice done.

But then again is trinis we dealing with they eh go do jack shixst about it.

[Falcon]

probably not even Man1 for that in law......

[snowbird]

Again, understand that right here, right now,


This is PNM country. Don't complain. Your cries are falling on deaf ears.
OOOOOOOOO.K. :lol: thank you for sharing what you consider to be the reason for the moral decline of these children, and also the caution that this spiral may continue; but you need to expand your input and share your opinion on.......is this Murder or Manslaughter? or even if it's something else? What do you think?

[vaio]

SB.....what yuh want more than "is PNM country"......tht is the answer and reason everything does happen in T&T. :roll: ....even the earthquake.... :roll:

[skl]

only Falcon have a inking of what going on.

Our law does not consider a fetus to be alive until it draws its first breath. as such the death of the fetus would be considerd neither murder or manslaugher.
at best you going to get grevious bodliy harm to the woman........and if the boy and the other children claiming his/thier actions were self defense he/they could get off that too.

[KFCSpicy]

:o
:shock:

Yuh kidding right SKL? So this is obviously another dohtish law that the government needs to re-evaluate. If abortion is still considered taboo in trini (not sure if I am right here) then this law doh make sense to me at all at all. If I can't kill de child in de womb by choice, how yuh go tell meh de child not worthy until it draw it first breath? And at what stage of pregnancy does our learned powers of be consider the foetus to have taken it's first breath...pray tell? :?

[Falcon]

Carlene O'Brien, of Piarco, who was four months pregnant, received a D&C (Dilation and Curettage) procedure by doctors yesterday to remove the foetus from her womb.

Doctors told her the baby died from being hit by a blunt object.
At the end of the day, the lady lost her child. Now I dont know if she lost the baby through stress, or if the baby was lost by natural causes coincidentally at this time.

I have a problem with the doctors saying 'died from being hit by a blunt object'. A BIG BIG problem.
Are these obstetricians, or better yet- forensic pathologists? Which diagnostic tests besides the newsreport were used to arrive at this diagnosis? From the procedure described, it seems to me it would be hard to diagnose a cause of death from the products removed.

You all know how I hate sensationalist articles making a bad situation worse. And like it ketch people wholesale.
It is a very sad thing anyway, and every effort should be made to find the truth. One of the possible causes of death is plain hooliganism, and I think this boy's parents were making a fuss in the police station? Am I right?

It is obviously too much to ask the papers to follow up on this story- the best we'd get are some sound bites from the funeral which inevitably will be worse than even this article.

[saltwater]

Wasnt there another side to this story. The boy in question said he was the victim and he was defending himself. He said he was leaving the school when a man, a woman and the pregnant girl drove up to him and started beating him. Other school children got involved and started to pelt. They went back inside the school to report it to the principal who called the police who was taking to long to come so they went to the police station instead to made the report where the other party was already there giving their version of the story.

[KFCSpicy]

So Falcon the doctors cyah tell if the foetus suffer from blunt force trauma? :? :roll: The newspaper does always sensationalise things but I doubt the doctors were Dentists that they let operate on the lady. So ease up with de mistrust lil bit.

[Falcon]

Seen it happen too many times KFC. The people who do this get worse and worse with every incident. It is easy to ignore it because of the tragedy involved, but in the long run we will all suffer because we will always be ignorant and ready to haold head and bawl down the place with 25% facts and 75% ole talk.

It is very possible that the baby died because of the fight (I will change it from 'beating' because saltwater has reminded us that the pregnant woman was in the melee- still an indepth investigation should be carried out). I simply want to know how Ob/gyns could diagnose death from blunt force trauma. That would never stand up in court so it should be good enough for us.

Tell me a pathologist made the diagnosis. Tell me the Ob/gyns used ultrasound, or flouroscopy, or even tell me they xrayed :shock: the woman 4 month old foetus. Tell us how they suspected something was wrong, and when did they decide to remove the foetus.

I hope we all don't believe that once the title is Dr. that they know everything about everything? There are specialities in human medicine because the volumes of knowledge man has come to accumulate about himself. When we don't ask for accountability, people will treat their patients as............well, as they do in the General Hospitals now actually! I guess we are already reaping what we sowed.

If it is offending sensibilities on this thread when I try to question the process, then please say, and I will stop.

[KFCSpicy]

Obgyn or Podiatrist...I am sure they can tell if the picknee suffered blunt force trauma. Doctors all have basic knowledge and it's stating the obvious that they all have specialities but they still know how to determine and diagnose. Just because the newspapers did a poor job in getting into the nitty gritty of the incident and give the nation a 1 hour CSI show about how she lose she baby that does not change the outcome. One which you cannot in your very limited capacity as Medical Practitioner of the Forum cannot refute. :shock:

As for the woman being involved in the fight...dat is and was not the business of the stone pelter...their steps of going to the police and the principal should have sufficed. Why we defending the undefendable as per usual?

In this instance these kids need to be talked too and showed that stoning doh solve problems...none of them with the armed services, none of them have various words like "mighty" and "super" in front their names ah sure so why play super hero?...with a weapon to booth and then think hey I am justified as the woman was fighting wid meh frend.

:roll:

I don't want these boys to go to jail but I think the scare of prosecution will hinder any future react without thought syndromes.

And just to point out to yuh eh Falcs....on FBI Files the other night...the narrator said that DNA takes approximately four days to process not a few minutes. Just to correct yuh. :D

And why yuh go think that because no one eh agree with yuh that no one eh want to hear what yuh have to say? I find that an astonishing reaction coming from you Falcon...like this case reallllllllllllllllll bothering your sensibilities.

[Falcon]

On your DNA point, the process to take a pair of samples and end up with a result of yes and no to a match after testing all relevant markers will take a few days. As you can see in the logs, I was referring to the DNA extraction process: I would not have said a few minutes, but rather about an hour or two if I remember correctly. If you'd prefer, I can email you the protocol. I can still get that done by working flat out with the relevant parties, in about 2 days. 4 days for different personnel and some paperwork. So next time if you have this desire to refute what I say so vehemently, please accurately read my previous posts.


Obgyn or Podiatrist...I am sure they can tell if the picknee suffered blunt force trauma. Doctors all have basic knowledge and it's stating the obvious that they all have specialities but they still know how to determine and diagnose. Just because the newspapers did a poor job in getting into the nitty gritty of the incident and give the nation a 1 hour CSI show about how she lose she baby that does not change the outcome.this is so fundamentally incorrect that I won't even try to help set you straight about what really goes on. Would you go to a podiatrist to treat a rash? Bacause as far as I can see, a rash is the most basic of ailments. Med School Year 1 semester 1 stuff, no?


One which you cannot in your very limited capacity as Medical Practitioner of the Forum cannot refute.I am flattered you'd appoint me such, but no thanks. If you read and speak to the right people you may know the truth also.

[KFCSpicy]

Lmao...

My point is they all know what blunt force trauma is when they see it Falcon. I eh want a foot doctor to look at meh tumour but...yuh being difficult man. Wid yuh bad spelling (wham to yuh today?)

But I know the things that get yuh goat wid reporting and the what yuh saying by how we read things and run with it without looking at the bigger picture as the case may be.

;)

[Falcon]

My point is they all know what blunt force trauma is when they see it Falcon.
:cry: :cry: ahhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!! :cry: :cry: 'they' don't all know!!!!!!! :cry: :cry: :cry:
(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7........)

[jacques]

From what I can read in the article, it does not appear as if the boy who was held then released threw the stone, and could possibly be the one who was being being attacked by adults... Yet again, very accurate and unambiguous reporting...

[gaia]

Put them in a home for juvenile deliquents and hope that they one day become honest citizens!!! letting them off free is sending the wrong signals to todays youths.They must understand that there are consequences to all actions and they are responsible for their actions.

[Sirius]

A few things to review:

Manslaughter is a charge for accidental killing. It is impossible to hold anybody for murder in this case.

If the fetus was not yet born, far less if it was in early stages then fair chances are it will not be recognized as a life by a court of law. Therefore not even manslaughter can apply.

Was this woman involved in the fight? Why was a pregnant woman in a fight? If she was then she has to take some responsibility too.

Was the boy really just defending himself? The article proposes that he was being attacked. Is there anything to suggest the contrary? Does this not carry some weight?

Has a post-mortem been conducted on the fetus to ascertain the cause of death? Somehow "being hit by a blunt object" does not seem to constitute a standard cause of death. Was it from hemorrhaging? Severe head or chest injury? Some other complication related or unrelated to the blow itself?

I would like to hope that those pointing fingers and calling for blood at this early stage consider these factors and acknowledge that too much is unknown at this point in the case.

[KFCSpicy]

:roll:

[Sirius]

Trinidadians do tend to develop irritations that lead to uncontrollable rolling of the eyeballs when confronted with facts. I recommend Objective Pharmaceuticals Eyewash.

:lol:

[Falcon]

what comes out during a D&C will be VERY hard to autopsy.

[Sirius]

I didn't realize that's what the removal technique was - my bad. Well that just complicates things further. How would they prove in a court of law that the blow was directly responsible for the death of the fetus?

It also however raises the question of how far developed the baby was if this was the method used for removal. Surely D&C isn't used for a fetus that is near birth stage? If it was an early fetus then most likely it won't be recognized as a human life.

[Falcon]

I didn't realize that's what the removal technique was - my bad. Well that just complicates things further. How would they prove in a court of law that the blow was directly responsible for the death of the fetus?

It also however raises the question of how far developed the baby was if this was the method used for removal. Surely D&C isn't used for a fetus that is near birth stage? If it was an early fetus then most likely it won't be recognized as a human life.
Sirius,
at least now I dont feel as if I am the only mad one here. You've hit the TARGETS spot on!
1. Let them tell us (a) the methods of diagnosis and (b) who did the diagnosis
2. Four months pregnant is ambiguous- what is legal abortion limit? 24 weeks? Then them boys only have GBH charges with which to deal.

[KFCSpicy]

Steupse at men.

Just to appease the mods here is the link...to what I am posting.

http://www.buy4baby.co.uk/firsttrimester.html

Baby's Development Month Three
Measurements at the end of this month

Length : 10cm (4 inches)
Weight : 31g (more than 1 oz)


Your Baby's fingers and toes have small soft nails.


Her mouth has 20 buds which will become her "baby teeth".


Hair begins to grow on her head.


The kidneys develop and send urine into the bladder.


Your baby's body organs will mature and she will put on weight for the rest of the pregnancy.


Your baby will be completely formed by the end of the third month, but her head will be quite large compared to the rest of her body.


Mother's Development
You should have an appointment to see your antenatal clinic/doctor by this stage. A pregnancy ultrasound scan is usually performed around 12 weeks.


You may be able to see your baby's heart beat at your scan, it beats at 120-160 beats per minute.


You may have put some weight on 2-3 lbs, a woman who is a normal weight before pregnancy will put on 25-35 lbs during the pregnancy.


You will probably still be feeling tired during this month, but by the end of the month, you should start to improve. Morning sickness and tiredness should also start to subside.


You may notice additional veins on your breasts, legs, abdomen and elsewhere as your blood supply increases.


Your clothes may feel tight around your waist and bust.


MONTH FOUR

Baby's Development
Measurements at the end of this month

Length : 15-17cm (6-7 inches)
Weight : 140g (5 oz)


Your Baby's skin is very thin and transparent and he is covered in fine hair called lanugo.


His hair, eyebrows and eyelashes are all forming.

He has vocal chords and taste buds and can now suck his thumb.

His ears, arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet and toes are completely formed.

He moves, kicks, sleeps, wakes, swallows, and passes urine. You may start to feel your baby move towards the end of this month. This may feel like a slight sensation in your lower abdomen - it's called quickening.

Mother's Development
You will probably gain 0.5 - 1 lbs per week in the second trimester.

You will probably start to look pregnant.

You may have trouble with constipation and you may sweat a bit more.

You may feel a little bit better this trimester as the morning sickness and tiredness begin to subside.

Some women get a new lease of life at this stage.

Every woman can experience different symptoms during pregnancy, as some of the early symptoms subside, you may experience nasal congestion, occasional nosebleeds, ear stuffiness, bleeding gums, mild swelling in your ankles, feet, hands, and face.

You may also have a bigger appetite now and crave certain foods.

[KFCSpicy]

And based on that I can determine that the picknee was developed homo sapien of tiny proportions yes but developed and moving and sleeping...etc.

So just for the men who had baies, literally and talking a mile of the-animal-wid-de-long-ears.... The D&C is given after all births it's to remove matter unless yuh want we women to eat back we placenta and all that stuff that remained up in their. It's not as the old wives tales in Trinidad hint at...only after abortions or accidents.
:evil:

[serenity]

The point KFC, is not whether u or anyone else thinks the unborn child is a child. It is what the LAW recognises is a child. There is no murder if there is no victim. There is no murder if there is no intention to kill or cause gbh.

As stated before,there are too many facts missing for any one of us to judge the liability of the boy. Remember, the age of the child would also have a factor on what if he can be charged with anything at all.

Consider another scenario - the boy is your son who had an altercation with another child. The boy tell he mother who come to rough up your son. Things get emotional and his friends, seeing him in trouble, made the choice to pelt the adults to try to get them off him. This accident happens. What u going to say then?

[Sirius]

KFC, I am not disputing if it is a human fetus. I am saying that it would be difficult to pin as "alive" before birth has taken place or sufficiently developed to survive outside of the womb unaided. At this early stage how does one argue manslaughter before a court of law? More than that, even if a charge of killing is laid, murder simply does not apply to accidental death.

This aside from the fact that you seem to be totally disregarding the claim that the boy was the victim of an attack by two men and a woman. According to the article you posted:


O'Brien was hit during a fracas at the Chaguanas Senior Comprehensive School, in which a number of pupils threw stones in an effort, it was claimed, to rescue a schoolmate who was being beaten by two women and a man.

Until this part of the article is cleared up, how on Earth do you justify the following suggestion you made?


Or should this little boy be let off with a caution and sent home? Ah mean he didn't set out to murder the woman, but should a lesson not be taught here to kids that all actions without thought have dire consequences?

According to the report:
- The boy was attacked
- Attackers were two women and a man
- Other pupils threw stones to rescue the boy
- Woman was hit by stone
- Unborn baby died

So to begin with, according to the information we have the boy did not throw any stone. Therefore he cannot be laid any charge whatsoever. So what lesson are you trying to teach him now?

Secondly, was this woman one of the attackers? The article does not mention the woman being an onlooker, but it does mention the boy who was attacked, the pupils who threw the stones and three attackers: two women and one man. So, was the woman an attacker? Was she struck in an act of defense? Why was she attacking anyone, more so while pregnant? Sounds fishy to me and if such is the case then grossly irresponsible.

I agree that the other pupils need to be punished for throwing stones in the first place. That is not the way to break up a fight, and intentional or not the baby did die. But why on this green Earth are you trying to place the blame on the boy who was being beaten, who by the report has not been indicated to have thrown any stones or even struck the woman with his hands? Why are you suggesting murder for a clearly accidental death? Why are you not considering if the law rather than personal feelings recognizes a fetus as a life to which which murder or manslaughter charges can even apply?

Put aside the self righteous anger for a while and look at the facts of the situation. We do not know the specifics of the situation. We are going by an article that doesn't even implicate the boy you are suggesting be punished as anything more than the victim of an attack.

[snowbird]

So Falcon the doctors cyah tell if the foetus suffer from blunt force trauma? :? :roll: The newspaper does always sensationalise things but I doubt the doctors were Dentists that they let operate on the lady. So ease up with de mistrust lil bit.

Spicy, if you ever had a miscarriage in the first or the second trimester you would understand what Falcon is saying.

My feeling is that the whole exercise all of these people were involved in was more than enough to cause a miscarriage. Hearing more of the details of the story I am now shocked that situation even took place; it is now obvious that at the time, the 'mother' or her companions didn't put the welfare of her unborn child first.

I also feel that it is situations like this that leaves you Police Services so jaded when it comes to investigating complaints.

[KFCSpicy]

Is not my picknee and I eh care about the circumstances. My question is whether we all think it's murder or manslaughter or neither.

I am not a mother and I refuse to say I will change my mind just because is my own child...then I would be a hypocrite of which I am defo not Serenity.

The Law is an ass as we all know. That said and done, my question in one post was if we have abortion laws yet don't recognise a child in the womb then these said laws are conflicting in nature.

The woman was in her 4th month, I have established enuff for me that the baby was developed thereby having feelings. If Trini law is what u say it is and that they don't recognise the foetus then they need to sit down and do some editing of these rubbish archaic laws.

I don't want the child in jail. I want the child penalised. There is a difference cause whether or not you all think it, it will continue and escalate in his behaviour that he can pelt stone to defend he friends/or himself (story conflicting from many posts so far). Let him know from now he was wrong.

So most people have agreed that based on the twisted nature of the laws in Trinidad that there was no crime here? Cool! That answers my question so far.

I doh need to put myself in any supposed situation to see things in any other light as this case is what it is. Hasty actions without thought has consequences...like it or not. As I said previously if he tail was 20 all yuh was never gonna come with the bleeding heart crap. So spare meh the comparisons and misplaced empathies.

[Chicabonita]

As a mother AND also had a D&C a couple of years ago (at 3 months pg). I would like to know the following:

1. Report of this lady's pregnancy PRIOR to this incident.

2. When she started bleeding, what type of medical doctors checked her and what methods did they use to determine the cause of her baby's death.

3. She was given a D&C, not an autopsy for the baby (as far as I know, please correct me if I am wrong). There is a huge difference between the two. The D&C would just remove the baby's remains in a vacuum-like machine along with rest of placenta, etc. IF an autopsy was NOT done to the baby, then I dont see how doctors can state the rock thrown to this woman was the cause of the baby's death.

If we know these facts, then we can probably make a better assessment of the situation.

[serenity]

As I said previously if he tail was 20 all yuh was never gonna come with the bleeding heart crap. So spare meh the comparisons and misplaced empathies.


Exactly! If it was a grown man of normal intelligence that decided the best way to diffuse that situation was to pelt a stone, we'd all look at it differently. A 20 year old should know better, he would be judged differently. But children are judged by a much lower standard. They're children and the presumption is that they dont have the experience to know better.

[KFCSpicy]

SB how in de world does having a miscarriage in the 2nd trimester substantiate what Falcon is saying?

From what I deduce Falcon is suggesting that he cannot trust the reports made by the journalist of the story and he definitely doh understand how they can determine death was caused by the stoning and nothing else. So ummmm how dat is related to anything hun?

Sirius, I understand and partially agree with what you have said but you and I cyah be reading the same article.

They eh post that it was the same boy who pelt the stone was getting beaten up. The two lines you just quoted said ....O'Brien was hit during a fracas at the Chaguanas Senior Comprehensive School, in which a number of pupils threw stones in an effort, it was claimed, to rescue a schoolmate who was being beaten by two women and a man.

So where does it say that the stone pelter was the alleged victim? :? How it was their business to start pelting stones? Apparently relying on the slow Principal and the police in this case was not enuff I see. :shock:

But hey,RLM did say to defend defend defend not so? So they defending their friend. I eh read nothing yet that said Mr. Stones was being beaten up.

[Falcon]

KFC, obfuscation in the extreme!

We KNOW that a foetus looks like a human at a very early stage of pregnancy, and that cognitive features appear earlier than was previously thought! Those of us who oppose abortion (i.e. stopping ALL people from killing babies...mothers AND junior sec pupils) will readily agree with you. But that is not the issue as serenity said. It is what the LAW says that counts.

D & C used for ALL births?! :shock: You'd better check that again KFC. Normal human births can clear themselves. Of course don't take my word for it, I am not any expert. ;)

One more thing: you dont post links to appease mods. You do it because you agreed to do it when you signed up to the AUP. It's just being true to a promise you made.

[Sirius]

I am also still waiting to find out why you are calling for punishment of the boy who was attacked when the article suggests it was his fellow pupils who threw the stones to intervene while he was being attacked. Can you please indicate to me where it says the boy who you seem to have such issue with being kept overnight then released back to school ever threw any stone?

If John is attacked, then his fellow pupils Jack, Jill and Peter throw stones, how on Earth does one blame John for any injury or death one of the stones may have caused?

[KFCSpicy]

All points are totally spot on Chica.

Serenity, is no ones fault but their own if they judge kids on a different level. Kids are tried for murder so because the foetus have no life in the eyes of the substandard laws and it is thereby not murder at all we should all just say oh well... they young and eh know better?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight! So lays the foundation for future monsters to build upon. Us excusing their behaviour because of age. If yuh tail old enuff then let a court or psychologists determine if yuh fit enuff to be tried as an adult not the misguided population. So yuh essentially saying de boy should be in DRETCHI or Lady Hochoy cause of he age but as soon as he reach he 20's and up he liable for he actions?

Doh even answer that cause it was all sarcastic. The rat fink basstid deserves a cuff in he head, all ah dem do. Why we aren't teaching these kids restraint but react?

[Falcon]

If this woman was involved in a fight, was she punched/kicked in the abdomen before the stone was hurled? What killed the child?

The blunt force trauma diagnosis must have some hard evidence. Match the trauma site impression on the baby with the marks on the woman's abdomen for heaven's sake.

[KFCSpicy]

And Where oh Where Sirius did I ask for the boy who was attacked to be punished?

As far as I know and see from my post I asked that the persons who threw the stones be punished...especially the culprit whose stone hit the woman in she belly.

So please point out to meh where I asked for the victim to be penalised and not his alleged super-friends?



Falcon, tomaytoes tomahtoes with yuh point niggling about AUP rules and my statement. :roll: So unnecessary of you to have pointed that out my fellow forumite.

[KFCSpicy]

Falcon.... :roll: sighhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Just because the Express reported didn't print out the entire report from the doctors that doh mean that certain steps weren't carried out. You are reallly reaching for this one aren't u?

[Falcon]

Just to appease the mods here is the link...to what I am posting.


I was responding to this, your mistaken impression bout why you do the things you do. Had you not said this publicly, there would have been no 'necessity' to remind you, my fellow forumite. :P

Nope I'm not reaching at all, I'm just trying to save people from being taken by the pied piper. A cliff is over yonder! :|

[skl]

The Law is an ass as we all know. That said and done, my question in one post was if we have abortion laws yet don't recognise a child in the womb then these said laws are conflicting in nature.

nope no conflict at all.....abortion is not considered murder. its a seperate crime altogether.

understand, if killing a fetus was considered murder, then there would be no need for an abortion law, we would just charge people with straight forward murder.

Abortion in law is not defined a killing anything but as "procuring a miscarriage"

Note the penalty for assisting in procuring a miscarriage is only 2 years, for the mother its 4 years.

[KFCSpicy]

But you and I already agree on that point, Falcon re pied pipers and blind followers because of insufficient facts or information reported. :roll:


Thank you SKL. I will need to research that point myself though...sorry but I always try to reinforce what is said by searching for the subject. Google is meh bess friend :mrgreen:

[Sirius]

Well KFC, you said:


Or should this little boy be let off with a caution and sent home? Ah mean he didn't set out to murder the woman, but should a lesson not be taught here to kids that all actions without thought have dire consequences?

while the article said:


O'Brien was hit during a fracas at the Chaguanas Senior Comprehensive School, in which a number of pupils threw stones in an effort, it was claimed, to rescue a schoolmate who was being beaten by two women and a man.

The boy, who it was said started the fracas, claimed he was the victim and was detained for a night at the Chaguanas Police Station. He was later released and is back at school.

You can't start a fracas if you're intervening to rescue a person already involved. Therefore, unless the article is giving the wrong idea then one can conclude the boy who was being attacked and claims to be the victim may have been the one who started the fracas, perhaps by doing something to make the three adults start beating him.

This was the individual who was detained for the night at the police station, then released and returned to school. Now considering the article never suggests any of the actual stone throwers were taken in for questioning far less allowed to go home after, one can reasonably conclude by your specifically stating "Or should this little boy be let off with a caution and sent home?" that this was the individual you were referring to.

I'm going only by your words and the article you posted. None of us have anything more than that to work with.

[KFCSpicy]

Dilation and Curettage
this procedure is obligatory whenever extra menstrual or abnormal uterine bleeding occurs. First, cervical canal is widened, and then samples of cervical lining are taken. Then curettage is done. Procedure is done under anesthesia.

Anyways, all yuh right she tail was preggers so shuddah been home in she house wrapped in bubble wrap instead of acting like a warahoo in de road....but since that is not the purpose of my thread i eh care.

[KFCSpicy]

Once again Sirius. Where did I say the boy who was detained should be persecuted for pelting stones? Where did I even speak about the alleged victim? I was solely and specifically speaking about the stone throwers and the fact that a woman allegedly lost her child as a result of thrown missiles.

So please doh put words into meh posts/or meh mouth unless yuh could prove without a doubt that I said them. :|

[Sirius]

Well KFC as far as I concerned if you clearing it up and saying the other pupils who walked away unquestioned should be punished for throwing the stones well then great. But that's not what you said in post #1. According to post #1 you appeared to assume the boy who was they took to the station threw the stone and should be punished, but the article suggests otherwise.

Even if the boy they had did throw a stone, if all the pupils who intervened threw stones then how is it possible to categorically say the one they took back to the station was the one who struck the woman far less delivered the killing blow?

Too many assumptions KFC. And too much personal anger over the concept rather than the facts and how little we know about the situation.

[KFCSpicy]

I think the one making the assumptions as to peoples moods here is yourself not so Sirius? Frustration yes, irritated that the laws is ancient and people still making excuses for the behaviour of others yes but no where am I so passionate about the subject to be "angered personally". Is not my child that was arrested, is not me or someone I know personally or even in varying degrees of separation so I am just not that interested on any other level but the questions I asked.

Anyways, u read and interpreted one way and I eh have the energy to keep defending what is so blatant in my posts to me. Do you! I go surely be doing me.

Stone all dem dada head picknee tail. If they want to defend people let them go join the police service/army/fire/coast guards but doh waste meh time with they is only kids theory. Nobody eh asked for them to be hung drawn and quartered, even though in a more developed country they would have not gotten off so lightly no matter who started the fight. But hey...is Trini land of sheep defenders of the indefendable.

[Falcon]

Even if the boy they had did throw a stone, if all the pupils who intervened threw stones then how is it possible to categorically say the one they took back to the station was the one who struck the woman far less delivered the killing blow?

Too many assumptions KFC. And too much personal anger over the concept rather than the facts and how little we know about the situation.
Shot to the boundary and not ah man move!

[KFCSpicy]

steupse at de two ah all yuh like all yuh "win" something here :shock:

:roll: Ah shame fuh yuh eh Falcon.

[snowbird]

Dilation and Curettage
this procedure is obligatory whenever extra menstrual or abnormal uterine bleeding occurs. First, cervical canal is widened, and then samples of cervical lining are taken. Then curettage is done. Procedure is done under anesthesia.

Anyways, all yuh right she tail was preggers so shuddah been home in she house wrapped in bubble wrap instead of acting like a warahoo in de road....but since that is not the purpose of my thread i eh care.

Just one other thing I wanted to add there with regard to my comment about the woman being in her third or fourth semester is, 'through my personal experience', when a woman miscarries that early in her pregnancy what is 'discharged' is little more than a 'clump of tissue' (sorry for being so graphic), which is why it is sometimes necessary to do a D&C, to ensure that everything is discharged. Given that circumstance, it would be pretty difficult to do any sort of an autopsy I would think.

[Falcon]

Win is when people look at the facts in this case in a logical manner.
Win is if we get the facts from the media.
Win is if justice according to the laws of TT is achieved.
Win is for people to understand what they are dealing with, so that when the inevitable happens, they are not dumbfounded as to HOW that could happen.

Until then, we are all losers ( or 'loosers' for the 'not so nuanced'!)

[KFCSpicy]

True.

loosers for those with lisps yuh mean :?