Friendship vs Honesty

[Jenny]

I realise that if the person is your friend, you should be honest with them. But would you want to save their feelings...
I have a friend who asked me to be a reference on her CV. I hesitantly said yes.

The thing is, I use to work for the company she is applying to and I know the recruiter. If he calls me and asks about her, I don't know if I should be honest...in that she calls in sick for work alot when I know she is just home nursing a hang over....she says she has dr appointments and i know she is over with her bf and can't be bothered coming to work....

What would you do in that situation?

[Falcon]

If you have this negative view of her, and you haven't ever confronter her about it, and you can't be honest about not wanting to lie on the reference, then how is this girl your friend?

And what is this thing about 'saving people's feelings'....what's that?!?!

[Jenny]

I do think of her as a friend...I enjoy going out with her etc. I just think some of her work ethics are not in the right order. Saving peoples feelings = not being harsh so they dont feel bad....

[Falcon]

This is a well worn phrase but if you all are cool then why can't you be honest with her always.....

[vaio]

my take on it...if i recommend her and she does it there....its gonna look as though i ent capable of recommending good ppl...

i say......be honest.

[Jenny]

thats why i was hesitant for her to use me on her cv. then if i said no dont use me as a reference, she will want to know why etc. she does tend to gossip alot and i know i will be a victim of crappy gossip if she falls out with me...which tells me she's not a good friend in the first place......geez i hate conflict!

[vaio]

well tell her that you don't really like to be put as a reference......and if ya lose her as a "friend"...then its just as well....since she wld gossip abt you...friends are not like that... :|

[Falcon]

Your reputation as a professional is very important. I would not put your rep at risk for the sake of saving someone's feelings which in the long run appreas to be saving yourself from gossip. You are essentially pitting professional badname against mauvaislang badname.

[bluenote492000]

Simple friend vs. real friend vs trini friend

A simple friend has never seen you cry.
A real friend has shoulders soggy from your tears.
A TRINI FRIEND CAUSE DE DAMN TEARS IN DE FIRST PLACE .

A simple friend doesn't know your parent's first names.
A real friend has their phone numbers in his address book.
A TRINI FRIEND KNOW WHERE DEY LIVIN', WHAT DEY COOKIN' ON WHAT DAY AND WILL SHOW UP AT THEIR DOORSTEPS.

A simple friend brings a bottle of wine to your party.
A real friend comes early to help you cook and clean.
A TRINI FRIEND COME LATE, BRING A SET OF PEOPLE AND THEN TALK ABOUT YOU WHEN ALL DE FOOD AND BOOZE DONE.

A simple friend hates it when you call after he has gone to bed.
A real friend asks you why you took so long to call.
A TRINI FRIEND SCREENIN' DE CALL AND DON'T ANSWER WHEN IS YOU.

A simple friend seeks to talk with you about their problems.
A real friend seeks to help you with your problems.
A TRINI FRIEND WILL LISTEN TO YOUR PROBLEMS AND CRY WID YOU, EVEN OFFER TO HELP YOU, THEN TELL EVERYBODY AND ADD A LITTLE MORE JUICE TO THE STORY.

A simple friend wonders about your romantic history
A real friend could blackmail you with it.
A TRINI FRIEND WILL BLACKMAIL YOU AND STILL TELL EVERYBODY.

A simple friend when visiting, acts like a guest.
A real friend opens your refrigerator and helps himself.
OH GOSH...A TRINI FRIEND OPEN YUH FRIDGE, CLEAN IT OUT, COMPLAIN YUH AIN'T HAVE ENOUGH, THEN TELL DE WHOLE NEIGHBOURHOOD DEY MOUTH WAS DRY!

A simple friend thinks the friendship is over when you have an argument.
A real friend knows that it's not a friendship until after you've had a fight.
A TRINI FRIEND TELL EVERYBODY DEY DONE WITH YOU AND TELL THEM DOH TALK TO YOU AND SHOW UP IN YOUR HOUSE WITH BIG HUG AND TING!

A simple friend expects you to be always there for them.
A real friend expects to be always there for you!
A TRINI FRIEND WILL SAY HE DOING SOMETHING REAL IMPORTANT AND WILL CALL BACK, NEXT THING YOU HEAR, HE REALLY WAS GOING TO THE WASA FETE!

A friend helps you move.
A real good friend helps you move a body!

[dancerboy]

JENNY, based on what u r saying, i don't think she is a 'friend' to you, you might be a friend to her. You should have told her that when you left, it was not under amicable circumstances, therefore your reference might not be helpful. Since you have not done that, here is what you do. If you know who the interviewer, or the person who is responsible for hiring, you call that individual. Tell him or her exactly, what you know about your 'friend'. That person can arrange to send her a letter stating that there are no vacancies at this time, but would contact her when one becomes available.

DANCERBOY

[guyguy]

thats why i was hesitant for her to use me on her cv. then if i said no dont use me as a reference, she will want to know why etc. she does tend to gossip alot and i know i will be a victim of crappy gossip if she falls out with me...which tells me she's not a good friend in the first place......geez i hate conflict!
Is this girl a FRIEND or fiend? Look girl; Just dump her one time. Friends don't gossip about each other. They accept constructive criticism graciously and thankfully. They care for each other and even more importantly, true friends look out for each other by being honest with them about their transgressions.

[Jenny]

I understand what you're saying....but I wish she would realise that what she's doing is hurting her professional reputation.

Dancerboy.....yuh have a plan there...but I don't think I could do it....Im not a good liar.. :)

Well she had the interview yesterday...and as I guessed the recruiter (my friend) did call...and I said Im in a meeting I'd get back to her....so yea Im avoiding the question like a plague.....too much conflict for a Friday eh!

[KFCSpicy]

I don't think it's a matter of whether or not you are being a "Friend" or a "Foe" to her. In the UK you are not allowed to be negative towards a person if you are called for a Ref. Also they may not even call you as most companies here have forms they will post to you and ask standard yes or no questions. So in this you can be honest to a point. Whether or not you think she has good or bad work ethic why do you think you should deprive another person of income and bread and butter just because you want to be honest?

Do you owe this company any allegiance? Or is it simply a case of how it go look when dey find out she eh all dat perfect in the work ethic department? For all you know she may take the job and be reformed and productive because she has learnt her lesson/dumped the useless man that encouraging b.s./motivated by her new post to want to stay and do better.

Do you want to be responsible for this person not getting a chance to prove themselves worthy just because of some misplaced ethics Jenny? :(

[Jenny]

Good point.....
But the company she is applying to is also a client company I work with ....if I do recommend her and she happens to turn out that she misses work etc, then it will look bad on me.
I don't want to be a bad person and I hope she does get the job without my recommendation.
Her ex manager (who is also a friend of mine) turned her down cause she asked him to be her reference. He was telling me this today, she called sometime ago and asked if she could put him down as a work reference, and he told me he said no it would not be wise.

[KFCSpicy]

Well then I suggest you do the same and risk her never speaking to you...which from the looks of things...is no big deal for you. So stop agonising over this and do the right thing for the situation. I think your manager friend's solution was better.

[Jenny]

i do tend to get myself in a quandry....and its good to hear other opinions....

thanks eh ... :lol:

[KFCSpicy]

it just shows you are a considerate thinking person who is well aware of the pros and cons.

[dancerboy]

Good point.....
But the company she is applying to is also a client company I work with ....if I do recommend her and she happens to turn out that she misses work etc, then it will look bad on me.
I don't want to be a bad person and I hope she does get the job without my recommendation.
Her ex manager (who is also a friend of mine) turned her down cause she asked him to be her reference. He was telling me this today, she called sometime ago and asked if she could put him down as a work reference, and he told me he said no it would not be wise.
you have a serious problem. i can ascertain from your postings here that you do not want to ruffle feathers. YOU CANNOT PLEASE EVERYBODY. Sometimes the 'friend' you loose, is not worth loosing sleep over. If the interviewer call do not procrastinate. TALK THE TRUTH. AND LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY.

DANCERBOY

[Jenny]

you hit the nail on the head dancerboy...I dont want to upset no one...and I dont want to lie. I know if I lie, it always comes back to haunt me....

So to end this story...the recruiter called, and I had to send in a written recommendation to which I effectively said, I could not recommend her for the job based on her performance. My friend thanked me for my honesty and then told me, I am not the first person to give someone a bad review..it happens all the time... So why do I feel so bad now for telling the truth??

[dancerboy]

you hit the nail on the head dancerboy...I dont want to upset no one...and I dont want to lie. I know if I lie, it always comes back to haunt me....

So to end this story...the recruiter called, and I had to send in a written recommendation to which I effectively said, I could not recommend her for the job based on her performance. My friend thanked me for my honesty and then told me, I am not the first person to give someone a bad review..it happens all the time... So why do I feel so bad now for telling the truth??
THERE IS A LESSON TO BE LEARNT HERE. Most of the things we worry about never turn out with the results we expect, and when they do, the impact is not as great on our lives as we thought they would have been.

DANCERBOY

[sapodila]

Jenny Girl... it was nice that she asked you first before putting down your name an number on the 'CV'. YOU had the opportunity to tell her DON'T use you as a reference and you had the opportunity as a FRIEND to tell her the reasons why you are not going to lie for her , to get the job.

If anyone puts my name on their app with or without permission ( it happens)...... if they are worth a recommendation, they will get one. If not, I will be honest as honest can be. My moral values plays an active roll in my daily undertakings. So be it!

[snowbird]

Personal or Professional references is a very funny thing as generally people who recommend others are in effect saying....... "this person has qualities that he/she is bringing to the table that I turly believe can enhance your company/organization".
When the person you are recommending actually falls flat, what does that say of your ability to judge others in this area?
Besides, did it ever occur to you that you may one day need to have that same 'ex employer's' recommendation? so now in addition to your own track record, you have this additional bad judgement record to defend....... hummmmmm

[bella_morena]

The two terms should not be exclusive of each other. If she's really a friend, she won't gossip and whatnot. Pull her square - say no you can't be a reference, and tell her in explicit terms why. Yes you want to spare her feelings, but the closest friends I have are the ones that have chosen to be honest with me over sparing my feelings.

And besides, your professional reputation is at stake. Hasn't everyone said that so far?

[Scorpio]

This reminds me of that old saying...

"To make a friend you have to close one eye, and to keep that friend you have to close both eyes"

Jenny, sounds like you friend need an intervention.

[cocoa]

Here is my input but I must warn you it's an old saying from back in the day, " a friend in need is a friend indeed." Anything other than that is just plain ludercris. :mrgreen:

[dancerboy]

Here is my input but I must warn you it's an old saying from back in the day, " a friend in need is a friend indeed." Anything other than that is just plain ludercris. :mrgreen:
I have a new one. "A FRIEND WHO AIN'T NEED IS A FRIEND INDEED"
DANCERBOY

[KFCSpicy]

Why all yuh so? :( Cynical. We are all put on this earth with strengths and weaknesses that compliment each other. No man is an island unto himself so we cannot expect people not to be needy, or not as perfect as some of us think ourselves.

See...this is part of the reason why humanity is such a toilet bowl. The me eh want no one to be asking meh for help all de time cause dey go cramp meh style kinda mentallity. It's sad as hell. It seems some of us only do stuff to make people recognise us as "good" when in fact we are just ego maniacs. :|

[Jenny]

People are cynical....I was out with her the other night and she was saying how her ex manager told her he wouldnt give her a reference...(I know him also)...so then she start to bad mouth the man....
I said I think he is a brilliant engineer and I value his opinion on various things Im working on....

Ok, so now she eh get the job...and she saying...'I glad they didnt offer me the job...cause I wasnt really interested on working offshore that much"
If you applied to that company...their work is 90% offshore.... I am sitting there thinking....why am I friends with her again???

[KFCSpicy]

ummm....

Does this woman have no redeeming qualities that you can find Jenny?

If not then why exactly are u calling her "Friend" and not "work colleague" or even "acquaintance"?

People need to define their relationships and stop labelling everyone as a friend.

[Jenny]

well...i probably use the term 'friend' too loosely.
she has been over to my house for dinner...and went on weekend trips with her...etc...I guess I didn't know her well enough....

[cocoa]

Here is my input but I must warn you it's an old saying from back in the day, " a friend in need is a friend indeed." Anything other than that is just plain ludercris. :mrgreen:
I have a new one. "A FRIEND WHO AIN'T NEED IS A FRIEND INDEED"
DANCERBOY

WOW! I WONDER IF DAT SAYING IS LOGICAL?

[guyguy]

Here is my input but I must warn you it's an old saying from back in the day, " a friend in need is a friend indeed." Anything other than that is just plain ludercris. :mrgreen:
I have a new one. "A FRIEND WHO AIN'T NEED IS A FRIEND INDEED"
DANCERBOY
DANCERBOY,
The meaning of the phrase "a friend in need is a friend indeed" is that when you, not him/her, are in need, a true friend comes to your rescue, without expectations of anything in return. Unfortunately, your new twist doesn't even make sense to me. It may to you so maybe you could expound and clarify what it is that you mean since the best I can do to translate is; A friend who IS NOT need is a friend indeed. See why I'm confused?

[dancerboy]

A friend who IS NOT need is a friend indeed. See why I'm

IF ONLY YOU HAD PUT " a friend who is not in need is a friend", it would have made perfect sense. However, i said that "TONGUE IN CHEEK".
DANCERBOY