Are losing our sense of right and wrong...

[serenity]

..Through a steady diet of non-judgemental attitudes?

[KFCSpicy]

I can balance my rights and wrongs with my tolerance of other people's habits. Even if I get annoyed that someone smoking in public and I have to breathe it in I know it's their RIGHT to smoke but I also know is my right to clean air too seeing as it was a personal choice they make to smoke for pleasure and nothing more. So somethings you need to just let go and let God.

I cannot right all the wrongs I see or percieve daily but I know how to identify when I am being superbly intolerant and correct it.

[sheppy]

I eluded to this previously in another topic (i forget now which one ;) )

but basically, in my opinion our strive to be 'politically correct' has left us accepting/tolerating almost anything.
We have lost the ability to draw the line in the sand.

Eventually everything becomes subjective, as everyone is obviously entitled to a point of view and conviction (as long as it does not encroach on anyone else's point of view or conviction) and lack of consideration of another point of view or conviction becomes discrimination.

[Scorpio]

Isn't this a matter of values ? I know what is right from wrong according to my values, but should I to assume that my values are superior to someone who does not see right and wrong quite the same way I do because their values are diferent ?

Obviously I am not talking about obviously wrong things like murder or rape, but right or wrong in a general sense.

[sheppy]

Like? what is obviously wrong?

Racism? Abortion? Female genetalia mutilation ? Death Penality? Women rights? Population control? Homosexuality? Suicide?

[Falcon]

If your world view is secular humanism, or new age, there won't be any absolutes. Most western societies operated historically on biblical foundation, and they contained absolutes. As we try to accommodate everyone and anything, we have essentially tried to fool ourselves into accepting 'wrong' by claiming the boundaries are suddenly now stretched and grey.

[snowbird]

The problem is, in order to be politically correct as someone eluded to, we have gone from black and white to putting everything in that grey area which means everything has now become subjective, even right and wrong.
I still maintain that if it's wrong it's wrong and simply because the majority 'chooses' to say it is right does not make it so; for heaven's sake, I have even heard of instance of offensive statements uttered towards others excused as 'the persons right to free speech'; do you think the people who fought for the 'right to free speech' really intended that it be abused in this way? I think not.

I may be old fashion, but I still maintain, right is right and wrong is wrong and these are not two things that should be debatable.

[Scorpio]

Like? what is obviously wrong?

Racism? Abortion? Female genetalia mutilation ? Death Penality? Women rights? Population control? Homosexuality? Suicide?


Well I personally find all the above to be wrong, but....

there are cultures where female genetlia mutilation is a norm, I dont think I have a right to impose my values in such a situation;
abortion - as wrong as I think that is, who am I to tell a woman she doesn't have a right to get an abortion if she so desires..
Same with homsexuality, as long as none of dem ******s don't make a pass at me - I don't have a right to tell them what they should or shouldn't do in their bedrooms...
racism, well if someone thinks they are superior because of their race, well, as long as they don't opely discriminate against anyone and keep their views to themselves, I have no right to impose my values on them either...
This is the point I am adriving at...

[kemist]

Do we need religion to define whats right and whats wrong ?

Jews, christians and muslims all follow the 10 commandments to some degree, yet most of the wars in human history had been in the name of god. Maybe in those times it was convenient to ignore the 'thou shalt not kill' commandment.
I once asked about that commandment in another forum site debating the death penalty.
I got responses which quoted other parts of the bible, where under certain circumstances, (they believed) killing is acceptable.
So when man could find a loophole in the laws of a deity, there are no absolutes, just what is convenient for the times.


Would more people 'do wrong' if there wasnt religion?
If there wasnt the fear of some sort of eternal punishment for sins committed, would there be more wrong doers in the world?

I guess the question i really want to ask is how do atheists avoid doing wrong.

Obviously societies have laws to obey (most derived from religion), but for the other things that are considered as wrong in religions like lying, cheating, adultery, and the seven deadly sins, appears to be challenging to both atheists and religious followers alike.

So is it correct to say that our sense of what's wrong is only as a result of consequences for our actions?

[KFCSpicy]

From since time began there have been death. That is part of a life. I am using the bible cause I am Anglican and not any other religion and this is what I choose to use as a measuring stick...but I read and I can interpret things as best as I can. So when I read the history of the Bible and I read about wars and death I don't think ooo how contradictory the 10 commandments saying don't kill but yet here is God given Ezekiel the power to wipe out villages cause they were so corrupt. I think well there is war and then there is deliberately chopping a man up and cutting off he face and his genitals just cause he dating yuh EX girlfriend.

So war should not be likened to murder as death will occur in war. The only time there is murder in war is when the cases that come to light show us that soldier x deliberately killed civilians or other soldiers without orders or without due care.

People need measuring sticks to go by be it the Bible, their conscience, their mother, the old woman down de road, your teacher or your friends. Without some sort of rules as a foundation we would all be lost as to what should be right or wrong from the onset.

IF the bible did not say anything about 10 rules to live by then what would we have gone by? Thought? Ah feeling? Which comes first the conscious thought or the rules? Are you born amoral then learn to become moral?

I choose not to murder, I choose not to do a lot of things because I was taught so but also as I got older I learned what I am willing to do and how far I am willing to go for the sake of me living with myself.

[sheppy]

Well I personally find all the above to be wrong, but....

there are cultures where female genetlia mutilation is a norm, I dont think I have a right to impose my values in such a situation;
abortion - as wrong as I think that is, who am I to tell a woman she doesn't have a right to get an abortion if she so desires..
Same with homsexuality, as long as none of dem ******(slur) don't make a pass at me - I don't have a right to tell them what they should or shouldn't do in their bedrooms...
racism, well if someone thinks they are superior because of their race, well, as long as they don't opely discriminate against anyone and keep their views to themselves, I have no right to impose my values on them either...
This is the point I am adriving at...


Well my point is that basic human rights should outlaw most of those things (without moral or spiritual value consideration) but we are now so consumed with living and let live, tolerance and equity we have ended up with exactly the opposite....we are expected to care about our fellow man...but don't get involved with them...

"Leave them alone to do their thing...once it doesn't hurt or offend me..." - This leads to a selfish society..

and i say bollocks!
The problem is...who's rules do we follow? Who sais what is humane or inhumane? socially acceptable or not socially acceptable...
freedom of speech...freedom of worship...freedom of choosing the morals that you feel are best for you?
Who is anybody to look down on anyone else...who died and made u king of the world?

But we need rules..and laws...to ensure we have a responsible society...it doesn't prevent your neighbour from hating your guts and calling you racist slurs behind your back...but it should prevent him from doing it in public.

All i know is all of this mamby pamby, kid glove, pacifist approach will get us nowhere fast.
Will the buck ever stop?

[dancerboy]

Are you born amoral then learn to become moral?
The above question is the crux of the matter. Some of us are confusing our conformity to laws,with right and wrong, or what's moral and what's immoral (our values,or morals). Most of us (very reluctantly, i might add) refrain from killing some people, not because we are moral or amoral. We refrain from killing people we dislike, because it's illegal, and we know the consequences of murder. I read some of these posts and i know if some people could get their hands on other people they will literally strangle them. AH LIE ! And for the same reason, neither do we steal, rape, defraud pepole. BECAUSE WE WILL BE PUNISHED. But these same people who will do none of the above, will horn dey brother,sister,aunt and uncle all at the same time. BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO VALUES, NO MORALS (AND NO SHAME).

On the other hand, a 'sense of right and wrong' (values,morals) involves our inherent value system. The way we were raised. We refrain from doing, or doing certain things because of our inherent 'sense of right and wrong' (our VALUES, our MORALS). There are no punishment, or sanctions for doing what is 'MORALLY' wrong, no are their awards for doing what is MORALLY right. We do THE RIGHT THING, because we know it is the right thing to do. We refrain from doing THE WRONG THING, because it's the wrong thing to do, not because WE WILL BE PUNISHED. And since my revered friend KFC, used the bible as a source, I too, being an anglican (episcopalian in the U.S) will use the bible as my first source. The bible says 'HONOR YOUR MOTHER AND FATHER', no need to go into the sanctions, unless you are religous and believe there are escathological consequences. However, there are no punishments for not obeying that commandment, nor are there any awards for obeying it.
Look at some of my posts under the thread 'TRINI SAYINGS', . Some of those are the values or morals, i was raised with (thats my sense of RIGHT and WRONG). I will give a few examples: 'LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP', 'EVERY DAY BUCKET GOING IN THE WELL ONE DAY THE BOTTOM GO DROP OUT', 'ONE MANGO EVERY DAY DOES FULL BUCKET' 'DOH HANG YOUR HAT WHERE YOUR HAND CYAR REACH' , and 'DOH ROB PETER TO PAY PAUL. When our parents, teacher, priest or elders inculcated those values in us, they were instilling in us a 'SENSE OF RIGHT AND WRONG' . AND NOBODY CAN TAKE THAT FROM YOU. However, you might not always live by those values. Hence the reason, some employers or people in general might say , YOU TRINIDADIANS ARE SO DIFFERENT, ALL YOU NOT LIKE SO,AND SO,AND SO, BECAUSE OF OUR VALUES. NOW TO ANSWER THE QUESTION, IT'S A RESOUNDING YES.

DANCERBOY

[kemist]

So war should not be likened to murder as death will occur in war. T



so the intent to kill is not murder?

[oecarb]

Well! The first thing I have to say is that, in all societies, regardless of religion, there are certain things that are considered wrong and there are certain things that are considered right.

Seems to me that there is the survival of the individual on one hand and survival of the group on the other. So killing a member of the group is considered wrong in most societies unless that individual has done something that the group considers wrong.

Killing a member of another group, for example, is often taken less seriously - especially when competing for resources. Hence the double-think regarding killing in war.

The next thing is that people keep quoting the Bible which, to me, is divided into two main parts:

The Old Testament which lays down lots of rules and defines what is right and what is wrong and the punishment that God metes out.
Yaweh/Jehovah also sends people on missions to kill others. For instance, Jonah is told to go into Nineveh (Iraq) and attack the people if they do not repent. They repented and he got pissed off. (Bush said God told him to attack Iraq and he would attack if Saddam did not allow the weapons inspectors in. Saddam did and Bush got pissed off).
[/*:m:5486c]
The New Testament, in my view, stresses that what an individual does is between him and his Father in heaven.
I don't remember Jesus ever glorifying war, for instance. I don't remember Him ever stressing punishment - except punishment that would be handed out by God (aside from the time he whipped the money-changers in the temple). We are not to judge each other because we are all sinners and we should keep our good deeds secret. They should only be known to our Father.[/*:m:5486c]

I believe the following (attributed to Jesus) is more in line with what people scathingly refer to as "Political Correctness"


1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

.

[KFCSpicy]

If I intend to kill you it is murder. If you and I are thrust into a war will u stand up and say to me whilst I run at you with a spear or gun or knife...oh gorm doh have no intention to kill meh nah...just shoot meh in meh arm and we go call dat even. :roll:

War is different than cold blooded murder. Any intelligent non-nit-picker will tell you that. That is why in our laws there is also a distinction of murder first degree, murder 2nd degree and manslaughter.

I am not here to change anyone's perspectives and outlook on things, I am here to learn so if a person wants to think one way for the rest of their lives that's them. Me! I intend to always broaden my horizons and further my knowledge base on almost everything. Certain things I really don't need to know as they don't benefit me in the least but if I come across them accidentally I will grab that opportunity to absorb. Whether I agree or not cause to me knowing my enemies mind is tatamount to my survival.

[oecarb]

If I intend to kill you it is murder. If you and I are thrust into a war will u stand up and say to me whilst I run at you with a spear or gun or knife...oh gorm doh have no intention to kill meh nah...just shoot meh in meh arm and we go call dat even. :roll:

War is different than cold blooded murder. Any intelligent non-nit-picker will tell you that. That is why in our laws there is also a distinction of murder first degree, murder 2nd degree and manslaughter.

I am not here to change anyone's perspectives and outlook on things, I am here to learn so if a person wants to think one way for the rest of their lives that's them. Me! I intend to always broaden my horizons and further my knowledge base on almost everything. Certain things I really don't need to know as they don't benefit me in the least but if I come across them accidentally I will grab that opportunity to absorb. Whether I agree or not cause to me knowing my enemies mind is tatamount to my survival.

KF, I am not disagreeing with you on this matter.

I am only saying that, in my view, most societies do not consider killing someone outside the group as "real" murder. Hence the double-think about killing in war and subdividing this into "war crimes" etc. Killing someone within the group is usually taken very seriously- from first degree murder to treason and mutiny etc.

I am also saying that Jesus never said we should retaliate. In fact he spoke about turning the next cheek etc etc. To me this is different from the OT - an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Which is why I will always object to people lumping both tigether. Just my opinion.

[KFCSpicy]

Well said Dancer (as usual).

In another thread someone said that people judge them when they aren't dressed a certain way. Yet these same people will do the same to others. It's a no win situation. Guess if we all adhered to the simple suggestion that we don't judge each other then no one will be judgemdental just sensible. One less reason for problems in the world.

[KFCSpicy]

I sure wish people of other faiths would post things from books of their faith so that we can see what it says. I know the Koran says a lot about how to treat people well but I cannot quote it word for word.

This is Psalm 14

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2: The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3: They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4: Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5: There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6: Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7: Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

[oecarb]

KF, the Koran and the Torah both incorporate parts of the OT. Which is why Muslims and Jews don't eat pork (Deuteronomy and Leviticus).

My way of thinking is not unique. There are Christian sects like the New Testament Church of God who, I believe, would not touch the OT with a ten foot pole.

[KFCSpicy]

Dang I thought it was Dancer who made the quote earlier...Oecarb my apologies for not paying attention.

I know you weren't trivialising what I said. I think we were both typing our posts simultaenously. :)

[kemist]

A lot has changes from long ago but it appears that people's mentalities hasn't changed since the old testament era. Societies accept war as a solution to problems- why isn't there anything wrong with that?

Engaging in actions of which the consequences are known, implies that you intend for those consequences to occur.

And the consequences of war are well known.

Could one of the reasons why war is so acceptable to society and why war will always occur, is because killing (the enemy) in war is trivialized?

No matter how we try to categorize it and find excuses for it, taking a person's life is - killing!

[serenity]

I posted ths question bec while I feel strongly that the answer to this is a resounding 'yes', I find myself wondering if it I who am backward or overly conservative in my thinking.

You see, not many years ago, it was accepted that a woman's place was in the home and many of the traditionalists were scandalised at the thought of women 'abandoning' their families to compete with men for jobs. Had I been alive to see that transition I would have probably been one of those women who would have opted to stay at home and see about the kids and view those women who pushed themselves into the domain of men as wrong.

Is it merely a matter of some of us not embracing change in the name of development? Or is there a real concern that we are becoming too lax in defining what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour?

[KFCSpicy]

Kemist I think war is acceptable to them for the very basic reasons that it's what they know. Plus is men or lil boys playing the school yard game of mines is bigger than yours or I have more than you and so de fight does start. Here it's just called politics.

I also think that war should not be the acceptable norm nowadays as we call our selves civilised and intellectual so there must be another way to get stuff done or what you need from the other person without annhilating part of your population. But in certain circumstances war maybe necessary but the lines have all blurred.

As Chris Rock said on Sunday during his show. Bush said to Al Qaeda...that's not how you kill Americans this is how you do it...and so started the needless deaths of soldiers in another mans country. Kinda a farce like Vietnam was.

You are being overly simplistic in your definitions though.

Kemist you seem to be missing the point made here. Killing is killing yes no one on here is disputing that and if you would allow for a wider sense of thought you would see that. But just as a human is a human is not a correct statement to make as even tho we all fall into the category of Homo Sapiens we are all uniquely different don't you think? A rose is a rose? But is it really? There are still different hybrids and species of them so then killing may be death but is it justifiable? Is it accidental? Is it murder? These are the broken down categories of death by another person.

[sheppy]

Is it merely a matter of some of us not embracing change in the name of development? Or is there a real concern that we are becoming too lax in defining what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour?

In a way, we have become incapable of making a decision or taking a stand because we now recognize the complete diversity of our populations. We accomodate and consider which is admirable, tolerance and compromise are a good qualities. But what is the price?

[serenity]

Well then Sheppy, maybe it isnt our non-judgmental attitudes per se that's the problem.
Maybe we arent even losing our sense of right and wrong, its just that those words now refer to different things.

[sheppy]

well by extension...if we have re-defined right and wrong ( and continue to re-evaluate it daily) where less things are wrong and more things are right.....eventually nothing will be wrong...it will just not be preferred

is like year round carnival.... do what u want...do what u want...