Can COP win UNC strongholds?

[knives]

I got into an argument with some staunch UNC supporters (or should I say COP haters) about the results of the Nov 5th elections.

Now, I know a lot of people in south and central, however I don't live there, so my experience with their political views is very limited.

Up in the East West Corridor, I can easily see COP beating the PNM and gathering a few seats here and there....but who is going to win the traditional UNC strongholds in south and central?

I have had some very staunch UNC friends from Barrackpore, Siparia, Penal, Princess Town etc go to the COP. However, admittedly these are friends from UWI who are middle class and well educated. It's hard to say who will win these seats.

Anyone from those areas in trinidad can give us an update on COP support in those areas?

Skinner Park was packed yesterday with at least 25 to 30K people. I'm sure 75% were from the Central and Southlands.

[lou_uk]

On the old forum, I stated that the COP will not win a seat. But now, and since the UNCA lost an opportunity and Stephen Cadiz (?) I see them having a chance in Sando West, even though Marlene Coudray borrowed one of Martin Joseph's crayons to write her speech for yesterday.

*St Augustine -- Winston Chandarbhan Dookeran over Vasant Barath (?) and Nadra Nathai-Gyan - seen her on some wildlife segments on Gayelle, comes across as too nice for this dirty game.

*Tabaquite -- Anand Ramlogan over Adesh "para-dig-im" Nannan(?) and Heeralal Rampertap.

*St Joseph -- Gillian Lucky over Gopeesingh(?) and Kennedy Swaratsingh (Sharon Gopaul McNichols was not too pleased but she didn't show it yesterday.)

*Point-a-Pierre -- Carolyn Seepersad-Bachan over Wade Mark(?) and Christine Kangaloo.

*Chaguanas West Manohar Ramsaran over Jack "money can't buy me love" Warner and Mustapha Abdul- Hamid - whom I have to admire for being part of the educational push.

* Prakash Ramadhar — Caroni Central (?) not sure how much of the grassroots UNC will treat what they usually dispatch as the N word. neemakaram i.e

* Ganga Singh — Caroni East (?) ditto

* Carol Cuffy Dowlat —Oropouche East (?) ditto

So that is 9 for me so far.

[skl]

*St Joseph -- Gillian Lucky over Gopeesingh(?) and Kennedy Swaratsingh (Sharon Gopaul McNichols was not too pleased but she didn't show it yesterday.)



rumour have it, its Carson Charles going up for the UNCA.

[sylvestter]

after seeing the huge crowd at the unc rally on tv, i am certain the pnm will winn by a landslide, and some former unc "safe seats" will also fall to the pnm.

[skl]

seeing the UNCA crowd today I dont think COP going to have much success in the strongholds. Their best bet is at the margins--St Joseph, San Fernando West., Pointe a Pierre have historically had the best turnout for 3rd parties.

[King B]

All the marginals will go straight to the PNM. Admittedly though, crowds do not win elections. We will see how it go but it doesn't look good for the COP.

[JPersad]

UNC is going to end up with less seats than they presently have .
Mark my words .

[deathwinger]

COP and UNC should really not be fighting themselves in the marginals. Even if they stay seperate, there should be only one party against the PNM in each.

[Somebody007]

UNC is going to end up with less seats than they presently have .
Mark my words .


Didn't a politics lecturer from UWI admitted recently that COP will take away about 30% of the UNC votes. Otherwise, I can't really say if the COP will win UNC strongholds.

[JPersad]

Actually the results may well surprise all of us .
This elections have too many new dynamics and with a large voters turn out (over 65 % ) maybe just too close to call .

[cm103]

What were the results of the Guardian poll today?

[JediKnight]

*St Joseph -- Gillian Lucky over Gopeesingh(?) and Kennedy Swaratsingh (Sharon Gopaul McNichols was not too pleased but she didn't show it yesterday.)



St. Joseph for UNC-A is Carson Charles.

[JediKnight]

What were the results of the Guardian poll today?

Winston polled tops in both PM and Opposition Leader. Patrick polled a close second in both categories. COP all the way as a party. No to unity. But remember polls are just a current snap shot. 3 weeks is a long time.

[Sirius]

What were the results of the Guardian poll today?

UWI/ANSA McAL Psychological Research Centre Poll, Sunday Guardian, October 7th 2007

Who will you support for Prime Minister?
Dookeran: 31%
Manning: 26%
Panday: 6%
Kamla: 5%
Rowley: 2%
Warner: 1%
Other: 1%
None: 9%
Don't Know: 19%

Who do you think will be the next Opposition Leader?
Dookeran: 21%
Manning: 19%
Panday: 8%
Kamla: 7%
Rowley: 1%
Other: 2%
Don't Know: 32%

Which party would you vote for in the election?
COP: 27%
PNM: 24%
UNCA: 11%
None: 12%
Don't Know: 26%

Would you support an "opposition parties" alliance?
Yes: 35%
No: 50%
Don't Know: 15%


It will be interesting to see how this weekend's rallies have affected these results.

[cm103]

Thank you Sirius. I think those results speak for themselves. Seems the Panday 6% support is all on this board.

Just goes to show that people are too easily swayed. Some sweet talk and all is forgotten.

[peanut]

Thank you Sirius. I think those results speak for themselves. Seems the Panday 6% support is all on this board.

Just goes to show that people are too easily swayed. Some sweet talk and all is forgotten.

There is no easy sway here cm103 as a matter of fact I have a PNM party card and a solid reason to support the PNM, but I am not. Sometimes a person have to be guided by their conscience and not their emotions especially with politics. I have been around it since 1981 so I know all too well.

[cm103]

Agreed peanut but such is not always the case. I have read most of your posts and while I do not agree with your political affiliation at this time I do respect your level head in these matters. We will have to agree to disagree on our political views.

I am looking at the leader of the COP as a man of integrity and one I would be proud of to have as PM. I don't have such a feeling with Panday or Manning as they have both recently showed that they will betray anyone just to retain or regain the power. I did vote for Panday last time but this time it seems more of a play to remain in the spotlight and revenge over the PNM rather than what was best for the country.

[vaio]

i dont think dat they will win in the stronghold.. but dey will get a lot of votes... seats is something else... but i agree that UNC will get less seats than last time...As for PNM well COP is makin inroads in their support... is it enough?? the next three weeks will be very interestin...

I must admit that the crowd at Mid Centre Mall for UNCA is somethin dat COP and PNM must take note....

[Scorpio]

I think COP has more credibility than previous third parties like Citezen's Alliance, MUP and Team Unity, so I wouldn't based a prediction on the performance of these failed 3rd parties .

[slayerdave]

What population is used to run this poll........how can 31% say Dookeran for prime minister and 27%, I'm guessing from the same population voting for COP?

[slayerdave]

I think COP has more credibility than previous third parties like Citezen's Alliance, MUP and Team Unity, so I wouldn't based a prediction on the performance of these failed 3rd parties .

Maybe but their fate is the same......

[Scorpio]

I think COP has more credibility than previous third parties like Citezen's Alliance, MUP and Team Unity, so I wouldn't based a prediction on the performance of these failed 3rd parties .

Maybe but their fate is the same......


Even so, they present an option for people with a conscience.

[cm103]

Sadly at this point I will have to say the PNM taking this election. Panday will drive this country back to them rather than step aside and allow the UNC and COP come to some sort of agreement to fight the PNM.

Before allyuh UNC supporters come screaming that Dooks should humble heself, pause and look at this situation from the outside. All previous UNC financiers gone except Jack. Panday own lawyers cross to COP and them have the inside information on his case. Kamla talk about taking knocks and getting up but she only getting knocks from within her own party. Panday run everyone who have a chance at taking over without him and Jack ent ever get into any business venture without having something in it for himself. Allyuh remember yuh could old buy World Cup tickets and travel arrangement through Jack company at his set price? FIFA call him on the carpet for conflict of interest, you think anything different if he win?

I want the PNM out but I would like a better future instead of looking back to what was. Ramesh was brought in to win votes from the nostalgic UNC supporters who long for the old days. Well he done prove that you can never trust anything coming out of his mouth.

Panday is politically dead and Couva North knows it. The once safe seat will turn marginal. There were people screaming NO in the same UNC crowd when he was announced as the candidate.

[Scorpio]

Sadly at this point I will have to say the PNM taking this election. Panday will drive this country back to them rather than step aside and allow the UNC and COP come to some sort of agreement to fight the PNM.


I don't think Panday cares anything but being in power and staying out of jail.

[lou_uk]

double :D

[lou_uk]

What happen? How come the COP supporters running back? I'm hearing this all over the radio. And if the COP have 80% of the UNC base, that was one hell of a base :shock:

Seems like the grassroots don't like the N word. Neemakaram i.e..

[reno01tt]

What the COP has to do is woo the undecided and those who do not vote if they can get these sections to commit together with the support they already have they just might pull it off..

[Maccogirl]

Not only COP supporters running to the UNC all yuh have to listen to the PNM radio stations even them now in a mess some going with Jack now, is one set of warning going out to the PNM party to watch they case, to do things differently UNCA not dead and with Jack involved is trouble Laventille was in full force at the rally, they say it was a plan all the time UNCA was lying they was playing dead to ketch the PNM making them believe that is the COP that was the force :D now they have to rethink how they doing things, they even saying the PNM need someone like Jack in their party because after that rally the PNM disorganized :D

[Scorpio]

they say it was a plan all the time UNCA was lying they was playing dead to ketch the PNM making them believe that is the COP that was the force

Oh, so that is why Panday was shamelessly begging Dookeran for unity ? :twisted:

[slayerdave]

Even so, they present an option for people with a conscience.

Yes, they present an option for people with a lack of conscience.
Robert Mayers, Selby Wilson and De Limas are going to deliver sweet t&t back to the colonials.....with a nice pretty bow tie.

[slayerdave]

Oh, so that is why Panday was shamelessly begging Dookeran for unity ? :twisted:

So which is it he attacking the corpse or shamelessly begging the corpse?..........

[emmannn]

COP has alot of support that is not only based on the UNC fallout. They appeal to the young and the intellect foremost but also anyone using their 2% would realise that they have the best team. Is only the loud mouth who supporting the other parties makin alot of noise. I have not been to any of the rallies but I make sure and try to swing votes their way when it is safe to do so, in a bar by the grocery even in work I rallying for COP. I hope it translates cause I want to see them win! They can win since with the advent of three parties and the shift in boundries there is nothing called a safe seat anymore. Jus get out there and vote- if you voting for COP

[Somebody007]

What population is used to run this poll........how can 31% say Dookeran for prime minister and 27%, I'm guessing from the same population voting for COP?


Allyuh listen up...the people who works at the ANSA Macal Centre up in UWI who doing the psychological poll.....I know one of the lecturers and he is strong COP supporter. So I know the influence of his poll include his beliefs as well.

[Somebody007]

Allyuh people, Maccogirl gettin vex with allyuh comments...she doh like dem corpse people and dem.

[cm103]

Even so, they present an option for people with a conscience.

Yes, they present an option for people with a lack of conscience.
Robert Mayers, Selby Wilson and De Limas are going to deliver sweet t&t back to the colonials.....with a nice pretty bow tie.

And what of Jack and Panday? Based on their past performance and behaviour to their own party members I wouldn't like to see what they would do with a country. Pure dictator rule, any opposition crushed.

Yes, dictators can be other people than Manning. UNC scared now if all they studying is killing the COP. In past times they wouldn't even consider another party a threat. They created their own end and it is coming. Party members have already started leaving and more resignations are expected in the coming weeks.

Kamla get a token position where she can't cause any harm, she was your UNC's last hope.

[cm103]

Oh, so that is why Panday was shamelessly begging Dookeran for unity ? :twisted:

So which is it he attacking the corpse or shamelessly begging the corpse?..........

Some people does really just parrot anything coming out of politician mouth. Corpse this and corpse that, if you were so confident in your UNC then you wouldn't bother with name calling.

Panday can't win without the COP and they done know how the man stay already so they not joining with him as he have no morals or decency. If he is the only one preventing a opposition alliance which could better the country then why he still there?

[cm103]

Not only COP supporters running to the UNC all yuh have to listen to the PNM radio stations even them now in a mess some going with Jack now, is one set of warning going out to the PNM party to watch they case, to do things differently UNCA not dead and with Jack involved is trouble Laventille was in full force at the rally, they say it was a plan all the time UNCA was lying they was playing dead to ketch the PNM making them believe that is the COP that was the force :D now they have to rethink how they doing things, they even saying the PNM need someone like Jack in their party because after that rally the PNM disorganized :D

I ent think they that smart girl. Is real tears and dissappointment Kamla cry when she get kicked aside.

Remember the patch job they do for she and the threats that come down from the supporters? That was planned?

Jack in this for Jack. If he embroiled in one set of conflict of interest when it come to football then wait till he get in charge. Every contract go go to him. Yuh could only book caribbean air out of he travel agency if he get in power.

[JediKnight]

Even so, they present an option for people with a conscience.

Yes, they present an option for people with a lack of conscience.
Robert Mayers, Selby Wilson and De Limas are going to deliver sweet t&t back to the colonials.....with a nice pretty bow tie.

Nah, we should go back to de UNC so they could give Birk-Hillman, Gutierez & Co. all we money again... and dat is no ole talk or supposition. Dey sittin in ah nice jail after admitting to massive fraud! And dey apologise to boot... At least dey have more guts than the spineless ones remaining here! Up to now ah eh hear Bas bray about dat! :mrgreen:

[Scorpio]

Oh, so that is why Panday was shamelessly begging Dookeran for unity ? :twisted:

So which is it he attacking the corpse or shamelessly begging the corpse?..........


1 week ago, he was begging for unity.

[Scorpio]

Even so, they present an option for people with a conscience.

Yes, they present an option for people with a lack of conscience.
Robert Mayers, Selby Wilson and De Limas are going to deliver sweet t&t back to the colonials.....with a nice pretty bow tie.


Look around "sweet tnt", ignore all the crime, money wastage, pollution, poor health care, etc and vote according to who wearing nice pretty bow tie, that surely must the biggest issue. :roll:

[JPersad]

UNC is going to end up with less seats than they presently have .
Mark my words .
That is all .

[Parsifal]

UNC is going to end up with less seats than they presently have .
Mark my words .
That is all .

So true. In a 3 way split the PNM stands to gain the most as the COP leeches off votes from the UNC.

Pointe-a-Pierre, St. Joseph and Barataria/San Juan come into very serious play while Tunapuna and San Fernando West becomes safer. Also with the splitting of the two Arouca seats into 3 and the creation of the La Horquetta/Talparo seat the PNM can get up to 25 seats.

Put it another way...the PNM has the better bet of holding onto their marginals while the UNC is in danger of losing some of theirs because of the challenge of the COP.

The politics of Trinidad is the numbers game.....if you cant play it don't get into it.

The real elections are in 2012.....remember you all heard it from the old Parsifal first!

[JediKnight]

In a 3 way split the PNM stands to gain the most as the COP leeches off votes from the UNC.



Have you all stopped to think why COP is able to leech votes, as you put it, off from the UNC? It is because the UNC in its present from lost the 2002 elections and nothing has changed in the UNC since then. They have not been able to attract anyone new that adds to the party, unlike the COP. And, I am one vote that the COP has leeched off the PNM. And there are a lot like me. ;)

[JPersad]

In a 3 way split the PNM stands to gain the most as the COP leeches off votes from the UNC.



Have you all stopped to think why COP is able to leech votes, as you put it, off from the UNC? It is because the UNC in its present from lost the 2002 elections and nothing has changed in the UNC since then. They have not been able to attract anyone new that adds to the party, unlike the COP. And, I am one vote that the COP has leeched off the PNM. And there are a lot like me. ;)
The COP is also going to pull votes from the PNM , but in a smaller amount.
If 75 % of the electorate votes , then don't count out COP .

[JediKnight]

In a 3 way split the PNM stands to gain the most as the COP leeches off votes from the UNC.



Have you all stopped to think why COP is able to leech votes, as you put it, off from the UNC? It is because the UNC in its present from lost the 2002 elections and nothing has changed in the UNC since then. They have not been able to attract anyone new that adds to the party, unlike the COP. And, I am one vote that the COP has leeched off the PNM. And there are a lot like me. ;)
The COP is also going to pull votes from the PNM , but in a smaller amount.
If 75 % of the electorate votes , then don't count out COP .

From what I recall, the national turnout has always been around 65 - 70%. Judging from St. Joseph, where I worked for the PNM since 2000, they have maxed out their votes. Even in 2001, with the Team Unity factor, they could not even get 500 more votes to try and get the seat.

[Maccogirl]

Nah man COP winning all 41 seats it would not have an opposition for the next 5 year Dooks will be talking to his self and the COP will shut off the parliament channel, COP taking all the seats wait and see :roll:

[Parsifal]

The COP is also going to pull votes from the PNM , but in a smaller amount.
If 75 % of the electorate votes , then don't count out COP .

Agreedhere is an element there that is unsatisfied with the opposition politics and shenanagins.

The PNM enthusiasm is very high and they made a strategic shift 6 years ago to activate their Youth League which has become very active through the OJT programmes.

To understand Trinidad electoral politics in a 3 way split consider the following:

In 1981 with the ONR which was founded in the main by middle class blacks from the PNM their vote count was spread across the entire country in rather even amounts. Their impact in Central and South Trinidad was really interesting. So much so that the PNM was able to gain Caroni East, Nariva, Oropouche, Princes Town, Tabaquite and Pointe-a-Pierre. This said that the 3rd party force hurt the ULF now UNC more than it did the PNM.

What it also says that there is a natural constituency in Central and South Trinidad to move from the politics of parochialism.....a situation that Basdeo Panday does not want to happen.

However, we have one important difference. Gopio and the Maha Sabha have been making increasingly loud noises and they have been making comments which are clearly not being pre-screened by the political leader Winston Dookeran. The COP is now being spoken of in terms as being more "racist" than the UNC in some circles. Winston Dookeran is not in control of his party.

This will only get worse. In Trinidad the "******gram" rules and "perception is the new reality".

So, The COP impact on the East West corridor hurts the UNC more than the PNM by far.

The PNM has secured the next generation of politicians whilst the COP is presenting old faces for new politics while the UNC is having problems to even screen candidates.

I thought Patrick Manning was joking when he said that he was working to a schedule but if you look at it carefully he really has been working towards this for a while. The man has more political savvy than I have ever given him credit for.

I think also that after the UNC rally on Sunday the biggest loser is the COP and biggest winner is the PNM.

This is war gentlemen...structured, deliberate warfare for the Indian vote in this country.

I will say it again. The real elections are in 2012 and it will be between Ramesh Lawrence Maharaj and Keith Rowley........not Kamla, not Dookeran, not Hulsie, not Gillian.

[JediKnight]

I will say it again. The real elections are in 2012 and it will be between Ramesh Lawrence Maharaj and Keith Rowley........not Kamla, not Dookeran, not Hulsie, not Gillian.

I agree with all that you have said, but why have you written off Patrick in 5 years time? Is it becuase of age? I don't agree with the RLM factor as well. If he is able to hijack the party, and the fight is RLM and Rowley in 2012, unfortunately we are in for a next 30 years of PNM rule. Do you see COP being a factor with Kamla at the helm in 2012? 2007 has shown that she is quite pouplar with Bas' core support. I cannot see her staying with the UNC if she loses the leadership battle to RLM.

[TheLight]

Corpse can’t even win a seat in a raffle, their meeting last night in Arima didn’t had more than 50 people

[Scorpio]

The real elections are in 2012 and it will be between Ramesh Lawrence Maharaj and Keith Rowley........

Wow, a thief and a self important loser, what choice that will be. :D

[Parsifal]

I agree with all that you have said, but why have you written off Patrick in 5 years time? Is it becuase of age? I don't agree with the RLM factor as well. If he is able to hijack the party, and the fight is RLM and Rowley in 2012, unfortunately we are in for a next 30 years of PNM rule. Do you see COP being a factor with Kamla at the helm in 2012? 2007 has shown that she is quite pouplar with Bas' core support. I cannot see her staying with the UNC if she loses the leadership battle to RLM.[/quote]

Patrick Manning has telegraphed this on more than one occasion actually. He has always struck me as one who would rather ride off into the sunset as a success rather than as a failure. He is quite clearly trying to establish and leave a legacy not just in Government but also in the PNM party. Similar to what 2nd term US presidents also seek....leave a favorable legacy for historians to pick over.

I base this argument on the fact that every single leader since Eric Williams has lost the PM position and demitted office in some measure of disgrace. George Chambers lost his seat and never lost the "Duncie" moniker, ANR Robinson lost as PM and was forever characterized as wicked and vindictive and Basdeo Panday lost as a result of a palace coup and now wears the unfortunate title of "old tief".

Manning I strongly believe is trying to leave his stamp as the one who took the country through this 2nd stage of heavy industrialization and the creation of T&T as the financial powerhouse in the Caribbean. In doing so he establishes himself as the most important leader since Williams.

With regard to RLM , I have made the assertion several times before that he was and still is the natural successor to Basdeo Panday. The UNC is parochial because Hinduism is parochial. The role of the women is quite secondary and subservient to the men not so much in the practice of the religion but in the social structure. It is more so in Islam and quite evident in fundamentalist Christians such as the extreme forms of Seventh Day Adventism.

To illustrate the point further, has anyone ever noticed that none of the East Indian dominated parties starting with the DLP, then the ULF and now the UNC has never ever created lasting internal structures? All decision making is done by a group of men whose power and influence is determined by selective hierarchy within the Hindu community and money. Let me state it another way. Can anyone point to any women of significance in the DLP, ULF or UNC prior to Kamla? Hulsie might be the closest but look at how she ended up in the political gutter.

RLM showed Panday something as well that none of the others could do....BRING DOWN A SITTING PM AND RECENTLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT.

Do you think Kamla could have done that? Or Dookeran?

RLM did it because he had the gravitas and publicly perceived moral standing to achieve it.

Contrast this to Kamla and Dookeran. They both stayed in the NAR for the 1991 elections.

They both lost.

Kamla was resurrected by Panday in 1995 and Dookeran was appointed Governor of the CBTT...also by Panday. They therefore owe their political existence to Panday. He made them and he can break them.

RLM is quite a different entity. Notwithstanding his political career, he will be remembered as one of the top 5 legal minds that the Caribbean has ever produced. That cannot be denied. This gives him a legitimacy that cannot be ignored or understated.

Dookeran knows this as well. In his speech in Arima last night he attacked RLM directly. I do not think this was a wise course of action because he took the bait. RLM knows that Dookeran cannot be allowed to succeed as this will stymie his own political ambitions. So RLM has deliberately targeted him knowing that he has the political cover of Basdeo Panday.

RLM will target Dookeran's tenure as Minister of Planning and Development in the NAR when he pushed legislation that undercut the East Indian owned financial houses and resulted in a number of them being wound up and their assets seized by the DIC. This is a little under reported and dirty secret of how the NAR assisted the major banks to consolidate their hold on the financial sector and keep its control in the hands of the French creoles and upcoming Syrian business at the time.

By taking RLM's bait Dookeran loses the positive news coverage as it will now be dominated at this important stage of the campaign as a mud slinging battle between himself and RLM.

Kamla by accepting Panday's decision that he lead the UNC Alliance has basically put a serious dent in her image of leader of anything because she did not and could not stand up to him. She knew that she could not and only achieved a short term objective (sympathy from the masses) and not the long term one. I also suspect that she knows that if she did she would be committing political suicide and leave RLM in the driver's seat. I hope that she has learnt a very important political lesson....there is no loyalty in politics.... only temporary alliances and allegiances.

The RLM trap is now set....let us now see how these two leaders in making deal with it.

2012 people. That is what RLM is aiming for because no one is moving the PNM this time around.

[Maccogirl]

Dookeran's tenure as Minister of Planning and Development in the NAR when he pushed legislation that undercut the East Indian owned financial houses and resulted in a number of them being wound up and their assets seized by the DIC. This is a little under reported and dirty secret of how the NAR assisted the major banks to consolidate their hold on the financial sector and keep its control in the hands of the French creoles and upcoming Syrian business at the time.

Well at least I have just seen ONE PERSON on here that calls it correct with the above statement, and that is a major reason why all Indians with business in T&T should be very cautious of a COP government. All the major players of that time has been brought back into the fray and the stage is being set for history to repeat itself once again.

[lou_uk]

Dookeran knows this as well. In his speech in Arima last night he attacked RLM directly. I do not think this was a wise course of action because he took the bait. RLM knows that Dookeran cannot be allowed to succeed as this will stymie his own political ambitions. So RLM has deliberately targeted him knowing that he has the political cover of Basdeo Panday.

RLM will target Dookeran's tenure as Minister of Planning and Development in the NAR when he pushed legislation that undercut the East Indian owned financial houses and resulted in a number of them being wound up and their assets seized by the DIC. This is a little under reported and dirty secret of how the NAR assisted the major banks to consolidate their hold on the financial sector and keep its control in the hands of the French creoles and upcoming Syrian business at the time.

By taking RLM's bait Dookeran loses the positive news coverage as it will now be dominated at this important stage of the campaign as a mud slinging battle between himself and RLM.

He takes the bait all the time. Over the past months, listening to Mr Dookeran his speech will most times begin by "biggin up" his previous speakers who are always, by far, better than him. He would then continue into an issue then say something like "but I will tell you more at another time". Then he will spend a lot of his speech attacking something "Mannin" said. I was really surprised last night in Arima, "the centre of Trinidad" that he got drawn in by Ramesh of all people.

[cm103]

Dookeran's tenure as Minister of Planning and Development in the NAR when he pushed legislation that undercut the East Indian owned financial houses and resulted in a number of them being wound up and their assets seized by the DIC. This is a little under reported and dirty secret of how the NAR assisted the major banks to consolidate their hold on the financial sector and keep its control in the hands of the French creoles and upcoming Syrian business at the time.

Well at least I have just seen ONE PERSON on here that calls it correct with the above statement, and that is a major reason why all Indians with business in T&T should be very cautious of a COP government. All the major players of that time has been brought back into the fray and the stage is being set for history to repeat itself once again.

So we talking about almost 20 years ago but just a few years ago under a UNC government we paid how much for the airport?

I really hate this race thing with Indians shouldn't do this because of that or Africans shouldn't vote for these people cause they only looking out for their own kind. I know its a sad fact of life in TnT but I just wish it was different.

[JediKnight]

Corpse can’t even win a seat in a raffle, their meeting last night in Arima didn’t had more than 50 people

I saw the footage on tv last night. Yuh being generous. They had about 20 people, and ah realise 18 ah dem was from 2 CEPEP gang in Arima who de PNM pay to come and crowd pad. So in reality it was only 2, one of whom was Mrs. Dookeran. Remember, unlike others with an unjustified degree of self-importance, she doesn't sit at the head table and do absolutely nothing. UNC by a landslide. 2002 was a fluke, we all love Bas. Patrick watch out, yuh deposit in jepoardy. :mrgreen:

[JediKnight]

I agree with all that you have said, but why have you written off Patrick in 5 years time? Is it becuase of age? I don't agree with the RLM factor as well. If he is able to hijack the party, and the fight is RLM and Rowley in 2012, unfortunately we are in for a next 30 years of PNM rule. Do you see COP being a factor with Kamla at the helm in 2012? 2007 has shown that she is quite pouplar with Bas' core support. I cannot see her staying with the UNC if she loses the leadership battle to RLM.

Patrick Manning has telegraphed this on more than one occasion actually. He has always struck me as one who would rather ride off into the sunset as a success rather than as a failure. He is quite clearly trying to establish and leave a legacy not just in Government but also in the PNM party. Similar to what 2nd term US presidents also seek....leave a favorable legacy for historians to pick over.

I base this argument on the fact that every single leader since Eric Williams has lost the PM position and demitted office in some measure of disgrace. George Chambers lost his seat and never lost the "Duncie" moniker, ANR Robinson lost as PM and was forever characterized as wicked and vindictive and Basdeo Panday lost as a result of a palace coup and now wears the unfortunate title of "old tief".

Manning I strongly believe is trying to leave his stamp as the one who took the country through this 2nd stage of heavy industrialization and the creation of T&T as the financial powerhouse in the Caribbean. In doing so he establishes himself as the most important leader since Williams.

With regard to RLM , I have made the assertion several times before that he was and still is the natural successor to Basdeo Panday. The UNC is parochial because Hinduism is parochial. The role of the women is quite secondary and subservient to the men not so much in the practice of the religion but in the social structure. It is more so in Islam and quite evident in fundamentalist Christians such as the extreme forms of Seventh Day Adventism.

To illustrate the point further, has anyone ever noticed that none of the East Indian dominated parties starting with the DLP, then the ULF and now the UNC has never ever created lasting internal structures? All decision making is done by a group of men whose power and influence is determined by selective hierarchy within the Hindu community and money. Let me state it another way. Can anyone point to any women of significance in the DLP, ULF or UNC prior to Kamla? Hulsie might be the closest but look at how she ended up in the political gutter.

RLM showed Panday something as well that none of the others could do....BRING DOWN A SITTING PM AND RECENTLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT.

Do you think Kamla could have done that? Or Dookeran?

RLM did it because he had the gravitas and publicly perceived moral standing to achieve it.

Contrast this to Kamla and Dookeran. They both stayed in the NAR for the 1991 elections.

They both lost.

Kamla was resurrected by Panday in 1995 and Dookeran was appointed Governor of the CBTT...also by Panday. They therefore owe their political existence to Panday. He made them and he can break them.

RLM is quite a different entity. Notwithstanding his political career, he will be remembered as one of the top 5 legal minds that the Caribbean has ever produced. That cannot be denied. This gives him a legitimacy that cannot be ignored or understated.

Dookeran knows this as well. In his speech in Arima last night he attacked RLM directly. I do not think this was a wise course of action because he took the bait. RLM knows that Dookeran cannot be allowed to succeed as this will stymie his own political ambitions. So RLM has deliberately targeted him knowing that he has the political cover of Basdeo Panday.

RLM will target Dookeran's tenure as Minister of Planning and Development in the NAR when he pushed legislation that undercut the East Indian owned financial houses and resulted in a number of them being wound up and their assets seized by the DIC. This is a little under reported and dirty secret of how the NAR assisted the major banks to consolidate their hold on the financial sector and keep its control in the hands of the French creoles and upcoming Syrian business at the time.

By taking RLM's bait Dookeran loses the positive news coverage as it will now be dominated at this important stage of the campaign as a mud slinging battle between himself and RLM.

Kamla by accepting Panday's decision that he lead the UNC Alliance has basically put a serious dent in her image of leader of anything because she did not and could not stand up to him. She knew that she could not and only achieved a short term objective (sympathy from the masses) and not the long term one. I also suspect that she knows that if she did she would be committing political suicide and leave RLM in the driver's seat. I hope that she has learnt a very important political lesson....there is no loyalty in politics.... only temporary alliances and allegiances.

The RLM trap is now set....let us now see how these two leaders in making deal with it.

2012 people. That is what RLM is aiming for because no one is moving the PNM this time around.[/quote]

While I agree that traditionally the large Indian based party did not have place for a woman leader, I think that times are shifting, slowly albeit. This Kamla issue has shown that she is quite pouplar amongst the UNC support. With respect to RLM, prior to 2001 I would have agreed with you, that he was the natural successor. I think that he has destroyed that and allowed Jack to infiltrate and Kamla to grow. Those are 2 unknown factor that leaves a question mark over my head on the question of leadership. I am quite close to the legal profession and again, would have to disagree with your view. Top 5 legal minds in Trinidad - Sir Hugh Wooding, Tajmool Hosein, Michael de la Bastide, Karl Hudson Phillips, Ewart Thorne. Caribbean, I would replace the last 2 with Luckhoo from Guyana and Cenac from St Lucia. And this is without giving the topic much thought. RLM has mastered the publicity game. You always hear of his victories in the High Court, but he usually loses in the Court of Appeal and Privy Council, and this is not published.

With respect to Manning, I think whether he goes for another term will depend on the factors in 2012. As you have been alluding, the COP would be a force in 2012, when there may be a risk of 1986. If the conditions are right, I agree with you that me may choose to hand over to Rowley in an attempt to save himself the same faith as his predecessors.

[Parsifal]

Corpse can’t even win a seat in a raffle, their meeting last night in Arima didn’t had more than 50 people

I saw the footage on tv last night. Yuh being generous. They had about 20 people, and ah realise 18 ah dem was from 2 CEPEP gang in Arima who de PNM pay to come and crowd pad. So in reality it was only 2, one of whom was Mrs. Dookeran. Remember, unlike others with an unjustified degree of self-importance, she doesn't sit at the head table and do absolutely nothing. UNC by a landslide. 2002 was a fluke, we all love Bas. Patrick watch out, yuh deposit in jepoardy. :mrgreen:

JediKnight, The Light and Sumana.

I did not see the footage. Was it really that bad of an attendance at the COP meeting in Arima?

Now you guys can tell that I enjoy the analysis of the trends. So if what you guys are saying is indeed true then the COP may really be in for some trouble in this campaign.

What about the COP meeting in St. James last night? Any feedback from that one?

I have been travelling a bit over the last few days so TV news coverage is not available to me.

Please fill me in on the kind of support that the three parties have been receiving at their public events since the weekend rallies.

[skl]

What about the COP meeting in St. James last night? Any feedback from that one?


Check sylvsetter thread on that.

[Parsifal]

I agree that the list of top 5 is debatable as all things are. There are a few others that can be added on to that list I am sure. However he has cemented his place alongside some of the leading lights in the profession.

In the case of Sir Hugh Wooding his draft republican constitution of 1974 was viewed by Williams as providing the basis for the creation of a presidency that could dictate to the elected legislature. That was the basis of the creation of the Constitution Review Commission from 1974 to 1976....assisted by a young attorney called Michael de la Bastide. In fact in the draft Republican Constitution of 1974, Sir Hugh wanted the the President to able to dissolve parliament without any prior consultation or on the advice of the sitting PM. So you see how some of our leading legal luminaries may understand law but not the role or function of government.

With regard to the PM, I really do feel that he is going to call it quits before the 2012 elections. He may be many things depending on who you speak to. However he does have one overriding trait that is rather peculiar to some politicians and that is a sense of "Manifest Destiny". He really does believe that he was "destined" to lead the PNM and become the PM. Any number of persons in the PNM will tell you stories of how he was almost like a son to Dr. Williams. The squeak through win in 1986 also has assisted him in no small measure to cement this thought in his mind.

But Leader for Life does not appear to be one of his ambitions. I may be wrong

We make our national leaders into more than they even think they are themselves.

Case in point. Have you ever noticed that all of our Prime Ministers, with the exception of George Chambers, has been described as "dictatorial". So much so that because George Chambers was not overly "aggressive" he was viewed as "weak and ineffectual". History has been kinder to him though because he left the political scene and made no further contribution he is being correctly remembered as the one who, at all costs, sought to protect the T&T manufacturers through protectionist measures in the 1980's. T&T's manufacturing base remained intact unlike some of our other Caricom partners, I am thinking Barbados in the main, and has allowed us to become the powerhouse in intra regional trade.

It would seem that we like "strong" leaders when they are in opposition but then find them "dictatorial" once they attain the PM's position. We cannot have it both ways.

Now if you want to know what "dictatorial" is you don't have to go too far. Try Haiti, the Dominican Republic, every country in South and Central America in the 20th Century. When political leaders in this country start ordering the TT Defence force to start detaining people unlawfully, secret executions and state sponsored abductions then we will know what "dictatorship" is all about.

In fact we are "too free" by these other countries standards. Raffique Shah became a member of parliament in 1976 after staging an open rebellion in Tetron in 1970. Abu Bakr was a political force to be reckoned with before and after the 1990 coup attempt. George Weekes and others jailed for sedition during the height of Black Power but in later years to become ".....an Independent Senator on the Government side!" back in the days of the NAR.

We have a very strong history of being subservient to no one other than our own wishes.

Think about that statement very carefully (I think I should copyright it.... :mrgreen: ).

Anyway that's some food for thought! Let me know what you think.

[JediKnight]

JediKnight, The Light and Sumana.

I did not see the footage. Was it really that bad of an attendance at the COP meeting in Arima?

Now you guys can tell that I enjoy the analysis of the trends. So if what you guys are saying is indeed true then the COP may really be in for some trouble in this campaign.

What about the COP meeting in St. James last night? Any feedback from that one?

I have been travelling a bit over the last few days so TV news coverage is not available to me.

Please fill me in on the kind of support that the three parties have been receiving at their public events since the weekend rallies.

I was being sarcastic. They had a good crowd in Arima, I would not venture a guess bec. I only saw it on tv. St. James was a large crowd based on someone who was there.

[JediKnight]

I agree that the list of top 5 is debatable as all things are. There are a few others that can be added on to that list I am sure. However he has cemented his place alongside some of the leading lights in the profession.

In the case of Sir Hugh Wooding his draft republican constitution of 1974 was viewed by Williams as providing the basis for the creation of a presidency that could dictate to the elected legislature. That was the basis of the creation of the Constitution Review Commission from 1974 to 1976....assisted by a young attorney called Michael de la Bastide. In fact in the draft Republican Constitution of 1974, Sir Hugh wanted the the President to able to dissolve parliament without any prior consultation or on the advice of the sitting PM. So you see how some of our leading legal luminaries may understand law but not the role or function of government.

With regard to the PM, I really do feel that he is going to call it quits before the 2012 elections. He may be many things depending on who you speak to. However he does have one overriding trait that is rather peculiar to some politicians and that is a sense of "Manifest Destiny". He really does believe that he was "destined" to lead the PNM and become the PM. Any number of persons in the PNM will tell you stories of how he was almost like a son to Dr. Williams. The squeak through win in 1986 also has assisted him in no small measure to cement this thought in his mind.

But Leader for Life does not appear to be one of his ambitions. I may be wrong

We make our national leaders into more than they even think they are themselves.

Case in point. Have you ever noticed that all of our Prime Ministers, with the exception of George Chambers, has been described as "dictatorial". So much so that because George Chambers was not overly "aggressive" he was viewed as "weak and ineffectual". History has been kinder to him though because he left the political scene and made no further contribution he is being correctly remembered as the one who, at all costs, sought to protect the T&T manufacturers through protectionist measures in the 1980's. T&T's manufacturing base remained intact unlike some of our other Caricom partners, I am thinking Barbados in the main, and has allowed us to become the powerhouse in intra regional trade.

It would seem that we like "strong" leaders when they are in opposition but then find them "dictatorial" once they attain the PM's position. We cannot have it both ways.

Now if you want to know what "dictatorial" is you don't have to go too far. Try Haiti, the Dominican Republic, every country in South and Central America in the 20th Century. When political leaders in this country start ordering the TT Defence force to start detaining people unlawfully, secret executions and state sponsored abductions then we will know what "dictatorship" is all about.

In fact we are "too free" by these other countries standards. Raffique Shah became a member of parliament in 1976 after staging an open rebellion in Tetron in 1970. Abu Bakr was a political force to be reckoned with before and after the 1990 coup attempt. George Weekes and others jailed for sedition during the height of Black Power but in later years to become ".....an Independent Senator on the Government side!" back in the days of the NAR.

We have a very strong history of being subservient to no one other than our own wishes.

Think about that statement very carefully (I think I should copyright it.... :mrgreen: ).

Anyway that's some food for thought! Let me know what you think.

Your point on legal luminaries are well taken. My vote is still out on Patrick's future. If the COP fizzles out after this election and the UNC implodes, post Panday, then there is no need to go into 2012. There may be time for 1 last term. But as I said, it all depends on what happens in the oppostion forces. And your statement is quite right. Look at Robinson for example, prided himself as a Tobago man, but really did nothing to develop Tobago in 1986, though I accept the resources was limited. We have seen it in the UNC with Panday, the NAR with Robinson and the PNM with both Williams and Manning. Its all about them.