Underage Sex

[KFCSpicy]

I just read this article in today's Express Newspaper...
http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl ... =161261784 (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161261784)

and I am thinking that the police were on the scene and arrested the man, which in itself is good, but what about the other day when we were all talking about the 14 year old girl in the hospital. The one who was making baby and giving statements to the police about witnessing the kidnapping of the other woman's baby (not sure if this was the article or not) why the police didn't ask her about her baby daddy re she age?

I mean is it that because they were investigating one case they didn't want to get side tracked with another? Is it that this situation is such a norm in Trinidad since Rock of Ages was a Pebble...that they not even bothered by it? Isn't this underage sex thing another aspect of society that we ignoring or just taking as run of the mill?

Should the law enforcement have rules whereby hospitals and private practices let them know when a female is underage and giving birth? Or is this a gross violation of the rights of these said young women and the men they sleep with? Should we not be implementing this law and acting on it thereby cutting down on a settah kids making kids and creating that stereotype of single mother dodgy father wid no money and nowhere to live being a burden on society kinda thing?

What do u all think is the pros and cons of this rule That doctors in private or public professions should report underage sex to the authorities?

[Somebody007]

One thing I will agree with you on, is the fact that if the girl is underaged giving birth, the hospital should inform the police right away but looking at the other side of the coin....what if by law the hospitals are to inform the police....how will young girls react to pregnancies.....do you think that abortions might increase as a result since these girls might fear for their 'boyfriends' persecution by the law?

[vaio]

Doctors/Health authorities are supposed to inform the police....most of the time they do not....nobody really cares.....check with any of the hospitals daily and you'll find quite a number of girls in there who are in the wards awaiting DNC, giving birth etc.

[Somebody007]

Doctors/Health authorities are supposed to inform the police....most of the time they do not....nobody really cares.....check with any of the hospitals daily and you'll find quite a number of girls in there who are in the wards awaiting DNC, giving birth etc.

Again, will these girls become discouraged to go to the hospitals to deliver their babies and have abortions instead....even if the child is born they wouldn't want to keep the child.....but will prefer to stay with the boyfriend.

[vaio]

*sigh* babies havin babies...

[Somebody007]

*sigh* babies havin babies...


This aint anything new. It happening alot in the UK and mainland Europe now. Worse, look at those cultures in the far east where girls are encouraged to wed at a very young age.

[vaio]

*sigh* babies havin babies...


This aint anything new. It happening alot in the UK and mainland Europe now. Worse, look at those cultures in the far east where girls are encouraged to wed at a very young age.

in these systems....there is the social support from older family members and the community.....that aint happening nowhere else...these yung gurls don't even know how to take care of babies...they are children... :|

[serenity]

*sigh* babies havin babies...


This aint anything new. It happening alot in the UK and mainland Europe now. Worse, look at those cultures in the far east where girls are encouraged to wed at a very young age.

Yes, but they are also trained mentally for marriage and children from very young.

I think the law says that if the male is within 3 years of the age of the underage girl he cannot be prosecuted. So, 2 teenagers sexing would not qualify as statutory rape.

Pursuing the men guilty of this rape would require the girls to give up the names of the father. Who says she'll cooperate? Or she could always get a young friend to tell the police is his child. To prove otherwise would require DNA testing...and we know how that goes...

But its a good initiative to look into. But there will need to be other supporting systems in place for it to bear fruit.

[KFCSpicy]

But systems like what though Serenity?

Ah cyah believe yuh type de word sexing eh??? :o

007 I totally agree with your raised point, it crossed my mind but I wanted to know if there are people willing to deal with that problem of it being a deterent for abortions.

What killing me in this particular article is the gyal say "ah lorve de man" :shock: Why parents stop beating is beyond me eh...but she tail wuddah be in traction ages ago and not in a man bed wid dat dohtish attitude. Ah means she dropped out of school and she shagging de man for a year? Who track whom? :o

[vaio]

...and the man leave his wife and livin with this 12 yr old..

[serenity]

But systems like what though Serenity?

DNA testing.
Manpower to look into this - a 'baby daddy' squad.
Social services to advise and provide support for these girls - its trauma enogh to have a baby, its another to know that by having it u put your man in jail.
Abortion legislation - men will take these girls to have abortions rather than face the possibility of jail. Which means that there would be health risks involved for the girls again.

Ah cyah believe yuh type de word sexing eh??? :o :?:

007 I totally agree with your raised point, it crossed my mind but I wanted to know if there are people willing to deal with that problem of it being a deterent for abortions.

What killing me in this particular article is the gyal say "ah lorve de man" :shock: Why parents stop beating is beyond me eh...but she tail wuddah be in traction ages ago and not in a man bed wid dat dohtish attitude. Ah means she dropped out of school and she shagging de man for a year? Who track whom? :o

Doesnt matter who started it. A grown man should know better than to have sex with a child.

[KFCSpicy]

:shock: This is what should be a major issue. Reform of the antiquated way the police does go about carrying out the law.

He needs some serious brushing in de Remand Yard by 12 dutty hard back brushists on a daily basis for about 12 years before I would have been amused by he.

[Sirius]

It is really up to the girl and her parents if they wish to approach the police over some sort of rape charge. If the law mandated hospitals to inform the police of underage girls who are pregnant, then I agree that we would see an increase in home births and abortions. Sometimes a piece of legislation that may seem like a good idea does more harm than good in the long run.

Also think of how the arm of the law can be taken literally to the detriment of lives: A girl, 15, underage, delivers a baby. She is mandated to give up the name of her 19 year old boyfriend, who is then charged with statutory rape because he is more than 3 years older. He is imprisoned. He isn't actually old enough to say he was taking advantage; he and the girl, both old enough to consent and while not the same age, not drastically different just made a mistake. He is old enough to hold a paying job; the girl is not. The newborn child is robbed of a potentially loving parent as well as an individual who could have provided for him/her.

Cases like this really shouldn't be pursued unless the girl or her parents decide to do so. It would have the reverse effect than that desired...kind of like banning the sale of condoms to minors.

[dancerboy]

*sigh* babies havin babies...


This aint anything new. It happening alot in the UK and mainland Europe now. Worse, look at those cultures in the far east where girls are encouraged to wed at a very young age.
007 Exactly what do you mean ' THIS AINT ANYTHING NEW. IT *********EUROPE NOW'. DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD ACCEPT IT, BECAUSE IT HAPPENS IN OTHER COUNTRIES ?,or SINCE IT HAPPENS IN OTHER COUNTRIES THAT MAKES IT RIGHT. I consider this a cop out. I raised my children by my standards, not by other peoples' standards. I never had to tell them 'WELL LOOK DE NEIGHBOR TEENAGE CHILD ON DRUGS,SO DOH WORRY ABOUT IT. THAT WOULD SURELY HAVE HELPED THEM TO BECOME MORE PRODUCTIVE CITIZENS.

DANCERBOY

[KFCSpicy]

Right is right and wrong is wrong. Yes people get caught up in the act of having sex but just because missy at 15 brushing she 19 year old man why they eh using condoms? Why her parents and his parents not trying to instill in them the need to not brush before she come of age?

If the laws are implemented is the people's attitude towards it that makes it a failure or a success. So for you to say Sirius that this and that would happen so there should not be this kind of law is just plain silly to me.

We allegedly have no laws in place now and we are still seeing back yard abortions and foetuses in dustbins so what is their excuses? If yuh know that getting preggers is going to be a major problem in yuh life stop brushing and work on de close-pin leg reflex. What happen to a man saying leh we use a condom nah? Or the woman insisting?

Why we love to blame everyone else for we choices in life?

Anyways, the girl is 12 not 15 or 17 so she is a minor if I am not mistaken... so to me that is child molestation therefore it should never be up to the parents to bring charges it should be automatic as it it's the bloody law. :roll:

[Solachica]

why the parents doesnt report the baby daddy to police when they find out their chile going make chile? I think some parents encourage such things
As K had said....when the baby in Mt hope was kidnapped it was stated in the article abt the 14yr old mother...no1 really commented....well besides some people going on to say nothing new it does happen all over.

[KFCSpicy]

Yuh think people care Sola? That's the sad fact about it. The Trini mentality is that oh gorm dat is too much drama oui. Nobody eh want to go to court and have to deal with all of that long drawn out process over something they cud just let go of?

My ex have a daughter who turned 15 last year august. yuh know de heffa hah child? When he found out he call Trinidad where she is living with his mother and de mother was like de boy family have money and he father is a "big boy" in de police service so she eh want no problems. So de lil girl make de baby and he walking around talking bout he is a grandpa at 35 :shock: .

That is the mentality of a plodder who doh think. Yes de lil boy young but the two ah dem was having sex since she about 12 or so and everyone of the adults new but they eh stopped it. My ex took her from Trinidad to live here in the UK she throw a 6 month fit so he send she back. As soon as she get back she get preggers. He finds it easier to mind the child than go to court. But this is just something that happens all over the world even in this sometimes backward thinking environment of England.

[sheppy]

my signature sais it all....


but seriously...We have serious cultural and legal issues with this legal sex age... u have to be 16 to have sex (without it being considered statutory rape) but 18 to drink and 21 to smoke (correct me if i'm wrong)
but you have people getting married at 14 and 16 (in the ole days)...

anyway...the point is...these children obviously have had no real parents of their own...what happened to "it takes a village to raise a child? " Man I only wish i cud buss one tap on dem school girls i see walking down the road in their 'hike' up skirts and sideburns pasted on to their face with gel in all kinda fancy design.. and school boys with their pants in their socks (yes...in their socks like is the millitary) and big thumbnail size earrings hanging on to their earlobes for dear life....we have thugs and whores in schools....

and i'm sure it is because their parents don't know...or can't do any better themselves....

[Solachica]

It does make me wonder if parents see how their kids leave dressed to go school.
Some of the schools in T&T dictates wht sorta hairstyle, earrings etc tht you wear so you wud never see some outrageous sizes and hairstyles in those schools.
In US if they wanna censor tht way then the parents go start saying freedom of expression. :roll:

[skl]

Right is right and wrong is wrong. Yes people get caught up in the act of having sex but just because missy at 15 brushing she 19 year old man why they eh using condoms? Why her parents and his parents not trying to instill in them the need to not brush before she come of age?

If the laws are implemented is the people's attitude towards it that makes it a failure or a success. So for you to say Sirius that this and that would happen so there should not be this kind of law is just plain silly to me.

We allegedly have no laws in place now and we are still seeing back yard abortions and foetuses in dustbins so what is their excuses? If yuh know that getting preggers is going to be a major problem in yuh life stop brushing and work on de close-pin leg reflex. What happen to a man saying leh we use a condom nah? Or the woman insisting?

Why we love to blame everyone else for we choices in life?

Anyways, the girl is 12 not 15 or 17 so she is a minor if I am not mistaken... so to me that is child molestation therefore it should never be up to the parents to bring charges it should be automatic as it it's the bloody law. :roll:


LOL maybe they excercising thier freedom of choice ? :mrgreen: :twisted:


but really......its lack of responsibility from parents...I wonder if its not too late now......now we have 'child parents' who never had real parenting themselves, so how are they going to influence thier kids to act ?

For all we know the 14 yo's parents had her at an early age too.

you know one of my 18 yo female cousins telling me that they still have beleifs that blue soap does prevent aids or that drinking a hot guiness will give you a quikie miscarriage.

and a nex one at 12 got into a relationship with a 19 yo..and when I ask her WHY she "love him" she say becuase he does buy she kiss cake . WHAT ! mind you that was about 5 years ago and she ketch sheself (or was forced to ketch sheself by her mother)

[Sumana]

Read the thread title, and thought about this form 4 girl, that did a porn video, from a prestige school in North...video is all over the place, parents found out they have rights to the video now, but it's all over mirror today - haven't read the article as yet

[Huma]

The one who was making baby and giving statements to the police about witnessing the kidnapping of the other woman's baby (not sure if this was the article or not) why the police didn't ask her about her baby daddy re she age?

I mean is it that because they were investigating one case they didn't want to get side tracked with another?


You're assuming that the impregnator wasn't already being dealt with by other officers, or that he isn't her age or younger.

[KFCSpicy]

:roll: Of course we are all assuming that, until evidence is published to prove otherwise it is safe to assume this.

[Sirius]

Right is right and wrong is wrong. Yes people get caught up in the act of having sex but just because missy at 15 brushing she 19 year old man why they eh using condoms? Why her parents and his parents not trying to instill in them the need to not brush before she come of age?

If the laws are implemented is the people's attitude towards it that makes it a failure or a success. So for you to say Sirius that this and that would happen so there should not be this kind of law is just plain silly to me.

We allegedly have no laws in place now and we are still seeing back yard abortions and foetuses in dustbins so what is their excuses? If yuh know that getting preggers is going to be a major problem in yuh life stop brushing and work on de close-pin leg reflex. What happen to a man saying leh we use a condom nah? Or the woman insisting?

Why we love to blame everyone else for we choices in life?

Anyways, the girl is 12 not 15 or 17 so she is a minor if I am not mistaken... so to me that is child molestation therefore it should never be up to the parents to bring charges it should be automatic as it it's the bloody law. :roll:

12 years old is a preteen. But a teenager is capable of having sex, it just isn't a socially acceptable thing. What I was trying to bring across in my post though is that there are exceptions, and mandating a penalty by law by virtue of turning up pregnant to the hospital is madness.

If the neither the girl (who is directly involved) nor her parents (who are the girl's caretakers) saw the situation as rape and as such did not file a police report, whose place is it for a total stranger at the hospital to do so? Everybody's ideas of morals are different. The law is designed to keep the peace in society. It is not designed to force a given set of morals upon everyone unless to do otherwise would infringe the rights and freedom of others.

How else can I put it? It is the legal right of the victim - if you really want to call the girl a victim - to not press charges. What you are suggesting is for when the girl approaches the hospital to have her baby delivered safely, she will be forced to give up the name of the father who could then be criminally prosecuted against the wishes of the "victim", i.e. the girl and her parents.

Can you not see that instituting this kind of legislation would encourage pregnant teens to NOT seek professional medical care for the birth of their child? All due to fear of prosecution of her boyfriend. That kind of legislation would turn the current rate of backyard births and abortions into a mudslide.

The world is not an ideal place, and fear and prosecution has never helped improve the situation. The way out is proper education, not pelting after every father of a teen birth looking to lock them in jail. Fear will never solve a problem. It will only cause people to take things further underground to reduce the risk of being caught. Put that together with a scared teenager torn between the disappointment of her parents, facing a pregnancy early in life, isolation by her peers, and the prospect of seeing her boyfriend put behind bars and you will have just moved the situation from the frying pan into the fire.

[KFCSpicy]

I understand Sirius I am just playing devil's advocate to get everyone to give their opinions on the matter. Thank you!

[bluenote492000]

It's not like those advocating this law saying it would be perfect. But it is illegal for an adult to have sexual contact with a minor even if the minor consented. Do you think a 12, 13 or 14yr. old is considering the consequences of having sex with a guy whose 19, 20 or even 30. Heck no! "Ah love him because he does by mih Kiss cake!" Obviously not a sound, rational thinking sound minded adult but a dumb as rocks child! And at what age do we consider it is ok for a grown tail man to sleep with a child (once she give consent of course), 12,11,8. Once she says yes is full steam ahead? Look everyone knows that 9 times out of 10 the man does leave the girl high and dry once baby on the way. Sometimes children need to be protected from themselves.

[Solachica]

Looking at Maury and you does see it all :lol:

[Sirius]

It seems that some people are letting their personal moral choices be the judging point without consideration to the long term impact. At the end of the day it amounts to endangering innocent lives for the sake of catching a few odd criminals. I say a few odd because as far as I can see, in the majority of underage pregnancies from adult fathers, the fathers are not all that old themselves. A great many instances occur with a 14/15 year old mother and an 18/19 year old father. This is in excess of 3 years age difference but still very murky water as they're both still teenagers. You cannot judge all cases with a broad brush as many 14/15 year old girls are very mature and many 18/19 year old guys are very immature.

But irregardless of the murky legal implications of it all, before all else, it is not the place of the hospital to force a patient to give up her boyfriend's identity. It would constitute a betrayal of the hospital as a free and fair place of obtaining medical treatment regardless of circumstance; a violation of the oath of the doctors who work there and a violation of the institution itself. And how would you enforce it anyway? Refuse to treat the girl until she gives up the name, risking her life and the life of the unborn baby?

The long term ramifications of legislation like this does not even come close to justifying such a means. Do you really think anyone is going to decide not to have sex because they might get reported if the girl has to go pregnant to the hospital? If that were the case, then the potential for being reported the minute the girl starts looking pregnant, or the potential for the girl to get pregnant at all would have put an end to most teenage pregnancies a very long time ago. The fact is neither party is thinking of the consequences during the act. To put a penalty for seeking medical attention at the hospital would serve only to make young mothers attempt more abortions and home deliveries. It would also only drive young fathers to be even more prone to run away, or worse yet panic and try to force the girl to abort or worse yet kill her.

The human psyche MUST be considered. It is not an automated program. It is a complicated thing that often responds by emotion and not logic. If an extreme difference in ages is present, or if a true case of rape exists, it will leak out eventually by other means: people like to macco and talk. Family planning initiatives, proper education, and adequate counseling services to those who need it most would be a far more effective means of controlling underage sex and catching rapists.

[KFCSpicy]

Sirius I think if a law like that is implemented then the doctors should not be allowed to demand the identity of anyone it's not their job to do. What I would like to know is why can't they take details that they normally take and then report that Jane Doe of So and So STreet is a pregnant minor. It should not become a case of prosecuting and harming some young man's future but then again we are talking about cases like the one I indicated not the boyfriend who is 19 and the girl friend 15 or whatever age; but I think u need to start somewhere.

[Sirius]

Well, I for one am of the opinion that family and school level counseling being made readily available and the services known to the general public would be a better initiative. Also better monitoring of illegal activities and so forth. Just remember that in the end it is a domestic matter and persecution depends on whether or not the involved parties file for action or not. There's a very fine line to be crossed that moves from a state of well intentions to one where the rights of the individuals and freedom of choice is violated. If the incident (any incident; just in this case we're using the topic at hand) occurs in private but affected parties do not file for action, yet action is taken, then we would be on the track to a police state.

Sad though it may be, sometimes at the end of the day it is better for a few guilty individuals to get away than for the innocent to suffer.

[dancerboy]

Just remember that in the end it is a domestic matter and persecution depends on whether or not the involved parties file for action


THIS IS NOT A DOMESTIC MATTER MY FRIEND. THE STATE TAKES CARE OF THESE 'FATHERLESS' CHILDREN WITH TAXPAYERS' MONEY. REMEMBER NOT TOO LONG AGO POLICE 'USES' TO TURN A BLIND EYE WHEN A MAN BEATING HE WIFE OR HE WOMAN. REMEMBER THE OLE CALYPSO: 'NEVER NEVER PUT U MOUTH IN HUSBAND AND WIFE BUSINESS'. THAT'S NOT A DOMESTIC PROBLEM MY FRIEND.

DANCERBOY

[Sirius]

So you're saying that because one scenario allows for outside intervention, a completely different one should? I disagree because there are too many factors involved to be so cut-and-dry as in a case of wife beating. Culture, education and a host of other factors have to be considered when dealing with a relationship between two people regardless of the age difference. Regardless, remember what the point of the thread is - hospital's obtaining the details and then forwarding it to authorities. Once again, how does one justify the impact it would have? There are other avenues through which individuals can be found and prosecuted where need be. How does one justify that this method would discourage pregnant teenagers from getting professional medical assistance when they need it the most?

[sapodila]

Statutory Rape! People! dais what it is. And all dem no brainers should be thrown into one jail cell. ...and dem young mom's who know NOT any better will learn as soon as de chil born.....hopefully! :roll:

[Sirius]

And therein lies the problem why our society is stuck in a vortex of its ills. All we want to do is persecute and punish...not educate and reform. We want to be able to say we lock somebody up and say we "teach dem a lesson", but we don't want to consider if the method in question will create an even bigger problem. Nor do we want to invest the time and effort in counseling those involved to find the root causes and fixes to end the cycle.

Was it Einstein that said the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results? We have been persecuting and punishing since the dawn of time and it hasn't worked to this day. What does that tell us?

[KFCSpicy]

Sirius well I agree we need education and reform but I aslo agree that they need to prosecute and punish ...that is the only way some people will understand and you must take the consequences of your actions. It eh have no mitigating factors that would allow me to understand or forgive a grown assed man soliciting and thereby encouraging for a whole year...sex with a minor. I doh care if she is proven to be intelligent enff to have consented. RAPE IS RAPE. Pretty soon yuh go want we to analyse why all paedophiles does do what they do? Is because they selfishly giving into their baser instincts. That is what separates us from animals amongst other things Sirius... the ability to fend off a nature or an instinct to do wrong. They consciously see de minor, began solicitation and struck up relationships with the minor and then pounce.

Educate more people yes, Reform and let off the simple cases of the 15 year girl and she 17 year old boyfriend yes. But for the love of God doh start down de road of Educate and Refom a paedo. Like yuh need to do more research on this breed of people.

In Amsterdam years ago, as a gay colleague of mine in work was telling me the other day, there was a group of men that came together and lobbied for a party in parliament. Well the law in Amsterdam cannot stop groups being made and parties being formed, so they were allowed to do so. But when it came to running for their post that was when the courts stepped in and blocked them from doing so. Who were these men? They were a bunch of paedos that said because the Gays have rights and are acknowledged in the laws as having rights they think as "lovers of children" that they should be given the same rights as people doh understand them. :shock: They said that people need to understand that paeodophilia is just them loving and being loved by kids and the sex is just their way of showing their love to one another. :shock:

These were grown assed men, educated men, men who knew the laws of the land and still their nature to shag a picknee was overriding their common sense. Who is we to tell them they wrong ent?

So for your point of educate and reform and going through the wounded dog syndrome of feeling sorry for every hard case and looking for a nice emotive reason as to why they do what they do is utter twaddle. Men and Women make their own choices in life, whether or not their battles with themselves is not won is not my worry but what is is that their battles with themselves seem to always affect those in society that cyah or wont defend themselves.

You are trying to defend the indefendable. I doh hold wid paedos. I doh want to know the circumstances either I want yuh punished cause yuh will never stop for long. Yuh nature would always be struggling to assert itself. CAn you show me a case of a reformed paedophile Sirius?

[Sirius]

Let me put this simply.

There are cultures that push for marriage from as young as 12. There are those who are mentally ill. There are those who have had no upbringing or education whatsoever. I am not making a case to defend a full grown, hardback, well thinking man who is a pedophile. What I am saying is there are other means to catch such people. This hospital legislation is going to drive away young teens from seeking professional medical care when they need it, and this is what it seems everyone who is pro this legislation seems to be overlooking. It is not worth making pregnant teenagers avoid medical care to catch the odd pedophile. Even girls who have a boyfriend within the acceptable age range would try to avoid the hospital because of the fact that an investigation would be launched at all.

Educating and reforming will nip the problem in the bud before the incident takes place. Catching those who have already committed the crime is better done by measures such as better support services, better awareness of what is and is not acceptable by the general populace and a more knowledgeable and capable police service. You seem to be so caught up in trying to punish the offenders that you're willing to catch them regardless of what method is used; regardless of the collateral damage that will take place. The hospital is NOT the place to bring this sort of thing.

That said, look at our prison system. There is no effort at reforming or even treating the inmates with any kind of dignity. Now it's easy to say that they don't deserve it, but look at prison systems abroad where they are still treated like human beings. The prison system serves to make them serve their time, reflect on the errors of their ways and become reformed into a constructive citizen. Here, they go in, live in filth and degradation and come out even worse than when they went in. I'm sure our prison system is a great way to "teach dem a lesson". The only lesson they're being taught is to come out looking for revenge on whoever got them in there.

As for a reformed pedophile, I'd have to look it up KFC. But reason says that there would be such cases because pedophilia is a mental illness and mental illnesses can be treated. Even if the pedophilia itself cannot be treated, the urge to act on the impulses can. Frankly I don't care what the individual thinks so long as they don't act on it.

[KFCSpicy]

lmao@it being a mental itllness. Once again we take the blame away from the individual. Sorry Sirius that is b.s. If u do find the cases let me know cause I firmly believe in an exception to every rule and I am willing to believe that some people do try to curb their instinct to be that way inclined. So give me a heads up if and when u do.

As to kids going elsewhere because of a legislation being implemented. Well all I can say is that...tuff! I does still see criminals in trinidad rushing to hospitals eventually after they get shot. They willing to take that chance of getting caught for some proper medical attention. You think is de dark ages where women need to go and hide and abort a baby? And simply because of a legislation that says if u are under the age of so and so then your details are to be passed onto the police for investiquiring?

It may have a few saddos that may think oh gorm marmee go kill meh if ah go to de hospital and they find out...or oh gorm ah doh want fred to go to jail cause (insert reason here) so let meh go have an abortion instead. I do agree that immature girls will think this is the route but hey...u did say that if we educate them and they get to see the pros and cons of their desperate actions that it will not bode well for them. But as one person pointed out in their thread ... de child say ah lorve de man cause ah de kiss cake and that some people still think that standing on their heads after sex could not make them preggers and all kinds of unproven un-scientific crap. So no matter what yuh try to do if u cant reach the minds of the parents/guardians, young people you will always get the down side to this situation.

England with it's socalled informed state on many things and their transparency on many many subjects still have one of the highest incidences of teenage pregnancy. But the thing is here, de government does give them house, money and everything else they need to get by. We have family planning in trinidad which I am a member of...but they aren't getting enough ads out, enough programmes directed towards the youths. Guidance teachers in schools does not really sit their kids down and discuss these things. Cause everyone wants to avoid any mention of the word SEX.

[Sirius]

lmao@it being a mental itllness. Once again we take the blame away from the individual. Sorry Sirius that is b.s. If u do find the cases let me know cause I firmly believe in an exception to every rule and I am willing to believe that some people do try to curb their instinct to be that way inclined. So give me a heads up if and when u do.

As to kids going elsewhere because of a legislation being implemented. Well all I can say is that...tuff! I does still see criminals in trinidad rushing to hospitals eventually after they get shot. They willing to take that chance of getting caught for some proper medical attention. You think is de dark ages where women need to go and hide and abort a baby? And simply because of a legislation that says if u are under the age of so and so then your details are to be passed onto the police for investiquiring?

It may have a few saddos that may think oh gorm marmee go kill meh if ah go to de hospital and they find out...or oh gorm ah doh want fred to go to jail cause (insert reason here) so let meh go have an abortion instead. I do agree that immature girls will think this is the route but hey...u did say that if we educate them and they get to see the pros and cons of their desperate actions that it will not bode well for them. But as one person pointed out in their thread ... de child say ah lorve de man cause ah de kiss cake and that some people still think that standing on their heads after sex could not make them preggers and all kinds of unproven un-scientific crap. So no matter what yuh try to do if u cant reach the minds of the parents/guardians, young people you will always get the down side to this situation.

England with it's socalled informed state on many things and their transparency on many many subjects still have one of the highest incidences of teenage pregnancy. But the thing is here, de government does give them house, money and everything else they need to get by. We have family planning in trinidad which I am a member of...but they aren't getting enough ads out, enough programmes directed towards the youths. Guidance teachers in schools does not really sit their kids down and discuss these things. Cause everyone wants to avoid any mention of the word SEX.

The bolded portion essentially indicates why it is clear I will get no progress arguing the point. It is clear that you are willing to endanger the lives of teenage mothers and their unborn babies for the sake of catching a few pedophiles who can be easily caught through other means. This to me is utterly and totally unacceptable and a state of affairs that I honestly hope we never get to.

I have never had much time for those so hungry for punishment and blood that the well being of the greater populace and finding the root causes of issues to address is cast by the wayside. It is the entire reason why after all this time we have not yet addressed the root issues that perpetuate our social ills. You might also want to note that the reason we hear about criminals in the hospital is because they are taken there and cared for under police guard. I have up until now never seen a headline about a criminal being arrested after going to the hospital for treatment. The place of the hospital is to treat people and ensure their health - not to call in the authorities. I will repeat that it is a violation of the sanctity of the hospital and guaranteed medical care for all regardless of circumstance by the state. To do otherwise would be to place a condition on the offering of medical care which constitutes a violation of a very basic human right offered by a society.

Incidentally, since you're bandying around the term pedophilia so much, let me pull the definition of the term:

Pedophilia: A disorder in which a person has fantasies, urges, or behaviors that involve sexual activity with a pre-pubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
SOURCE: http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/ ... ary?page=9 (http://www.webmd.com/sexual-conditions/sexual-health-glossary?page=9)

A sexual disorder occuring in a person 16 years or older and that is recurrent with intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child (generally age 13 or younger). (from APA, DSM-IV, 1994).
http://www.websters-online-dictionary.o ... pedophilia (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/definition/pedophilia)

So for starters, what we have here is that pedophilia strictly speaking involves prepubescent children. Secondly, according to one of the largest medical websites out there, it is a disorder. So before laughing that something we don't like to see in society, consider that in many cases it is considered a mental illness. People do not become deviants because they woke up and decided to be that way. Something happened in their lives, or some imbalance happened in their heads to drive them to deviant behavior. Sometimes it is a hormonal imbalance, sometimes it is witnessing an event at an early age without understanding of it, sometimes it is plain old mental instability. The problem we have as a society is that most people do not wish to consider the how and why of a situation. We do not want to try to understand the human psyche and what causes it to go astray. We therefore close our minds to scientific research to the contrary and ignore the things that could actually put an end to the problem, and in so doing encourage perpetuation of the problem.


But of course, all of this is more applicable to how to address the problem once an offender has been caught. The root problem here is that of placing a condition on obtaining medical treatment. Of course, you seem to think it is "tuff" if these girls avoid the hospital. You call them "saddos". Well have you considered the state of mind that a teenage girl ready to give birth would be under? You have a mind that is not fully developed yet. Still growing up and learning the basics of life, not to mention confused and emotional due to unfamiliar hormones raging through the body not just from pregnancy but also from being a teenager. You have a child who is confused, unable to properly differentiate between love and lust. You have a child that has been segregated from her friends because of the stigma that she got pregnant. You have a child that has become the embarrassment of the family, shunned by relatives and berated by parents, sometimes to the extent of being told she is no longer welcome in the house. You have a child who is not even close to finished with school and yet about to be a mother.

And you expect this child to make the logical choice, and to be a "saddo" if she shuns the medical treatment so "tuff" for her? That lack of consideration for the child and the developmental process of a teenager KFC is the only sad thing I am seeing here. You're talking about "unproven unscientific crap" yet you're completely ignoring how the mind of a teenager works.

[KFCSpicy]

You can empathise in your own way and all the googling for definitions would not change the facts Sirius. Whether you think that a 47 year old should not be called a paeodo or not is not my immediate concern here. Your assumptions that I am bloodthirsty so to speak is based solely on what u want to percieve from my posts. You are passionate to have criminals talked to. I want action. You believe everything can be explained away with nice neat little definition boxes well more power to you. Discuss away... or don't...but it won't change how I think or feel cause at the end of the day u could be 100 per cent wrong and u would still not think so.

My opinions are solely that... mine. Your ideas are those of a person who thinks that everyone can be reformed and that is admirable but also dangerous.

You did not need to give a definition of the word as we all know what a paedo is hence the article and the topic Sirius. Hence me constantly referring to the man's age and the girls she is not Twelveteen is she? So he is in fact a Child Rapist. You still have not suggested any form of reform or shown any evidence of said reform yet you are passionately arguing that everyone else is wrong to want the elimination and or incaceration of these losers in our society.

I still think they are all saddos and I really don't care if anyone thinks it's harsh. I simply refuse to nice it up for the overly sensitive and the Politically correct brigade. Lay blame where it should be Sirius not where it ought to go after the fact. Try understanding from the victim's side of things and then come and talk about reform.

As my initial post says. I welcome points of views and suggestions not that I can do anything about it at all, but I purely have a need to know what others think.

Sirius I totally respect you and your views so please don't think I don't. I rather banter with u than with a person who has nothing to offer me in the form of insight and alternate views and alleviation, so thank you for the convo so far it's appreciated.

[Sirius]

Once again - the primary issue here is not so much one of the rapist/pedophile. I would personally like to see a mental analysis done before sentencing. Some methods of finding and apprehending offenders would be high police presence, monitoring of school activities, education of the children and their parents, readily accessible anonymous social services and electronic tracking of previously imprisoned individuals for a period of time (depending on what they were apprehended for) following their release - it is no secret that many offenders are repeat offenders. But I have said in my previous post that that aspect of the matter is more one for the courts when the individual is caught.

The primary issue, above and before all else as it pertains to this thread is that at the hospitals and whether such legislation would deter girls from going to the hospital thereby endangering both their lives and the lives of their unborn children. You have said that you still think "they are all saddos" and to "try understanding from the victim's side of things". If you read the second half of my post you would see it is directly from the victim's side of things I am speaking. I'll post it over for you:


But of course, all of this is more applicable to how to address the problem once an offender has been caught. The root problem here is that of placing a condition on obtaining medical treatment. Of course, you seem to think it is "tuff" if these girls avoid the hospital. You call them "saddos". Well have you considered the state of mind that a teenage girl ready to give birth would be under? You have a mind that is not fully developed yet. Still growing up and learning the basics of life, not to mention confused and emotional due to unfamiliar hormones raging through the body not just from pregnancy but also from being a teenager. You have a child who is confused, unable to properly differentiate between love and lust. You have a child that has been segregated from her friends because of the stigma that she got pregnant. You have a child that has become the embarrassment of the family, shunned by relatives and berated by parents, sometimes to the extent of being told she is no longer welcome in the house. You have a child who is not even close to finished with school and yet about to be a mother.

And you expect this child to make the logical choice, and to be a "saddo" if she shuns the medical treatment so "tuff" for her? That lack of consideration for the child and the developmental process of a teenager KFC is the only sad thing I am seeing here. You're talking about "unproven unscientific crap" yet you're completely ignoring how the mind of a teenager works.

This IS the victim's side of things. Furthermore, it is also taking into consideration the innocent unborn child. A teenager's mind is an emotional, complicated, self conscious, confused thing. Especially so when shunned by friends and family, confused about these new feelings confused between lust and love that led to having sex, and carrying a child years before she is ready. Surely you can see that the point I am making is it is the victims who will be most affected by making hospitals file police reports for underage maternity patients?

[snowbird]

source Trinidad Express
Saturday, January 12th 2008

http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl ... =161262905 (http://www.trinidadexpress.com/index.pl/article_news?id=161262905)

'Well-off pupils do crazy things'

Counsellors find AIDS cases in secondary schools

Ariti Jankie South Bureau

A number of secondary school pupils have been tested HIV-positive and early pregnancies were detected during an AIDS awareness programme conducted by the South AIDS Support Group, it was disclosed on Thursday.

The infected pupils were detected within the past year, during counselling by the group's officials at schools in South and Central Trinidad.

Judy Ahamed, the club's public relations officer, who has been working with the support group, said that an increasing number of secondary school pupils were sexually active because of the lack of supervision at home.

Beverley King, counsellor with the Support Group, told the Express that members of the group have been going to schools from Chaguanas to Icacos, and after they conducted sessions children came to them with a number of problems.

She said: "They enquire and ask for help. In my experience, it is the children who are well-off who do the crazy things."

She added: "They will tell us they made a mistake and we will send them for tests (HIV and pregnancy) and try to help them overcome their problems."

Speaking at the launch of the Rotary's third annual walkathon and health fair, titled "Stop AIDS-Keep the Promise" at the Royal Hotel, Royal Road, San Fernando, on Thursday, Ahamad said that due to the pressures of the workplace and the need to earn, parents leave teenagers to find their way home from school. She said this left many of them home alone with the opportunity to engage in sexual activity.

"We have been counselling pupils and encouraging them to take the HIV/AIDS test as well as pregnancy tests and have been overwhelmed by the problems that exist at secondary school level," she said.

Rotary Club of San Fernando president Dipak Dawar said 20 schools have been invited to participate in the walkathon and more than 800 pupils were expected to take part. The event kicks off at Naparima Bowl on January 18, with San Fernando Mayor Kenneth Ferguson, San Fernando West MP Junia Regrello and reigning Miss Trinidad and Tobago Valene Maharaj scheduled to attend.

He said the Rotary Club began its AIDS awareness programme among secondary school pupils in 2004 and has been targeting the 13-to-18 age group.

"We have fixed a January date to talk about HIV/AIDS as well as promote health care just before the Carnival season," Dawar said, adding that the aim was to educate teenagers so they would exercise care and sexual abstinence during the festivities.

Seems like the subject of this thread is just the tip of the iceberg, and pregnency is the least of T&T's problems.

[KFCSpicy]

I have not read of any indication of a Port of Spain or East type of sister organisation/s are there any?

[Sirius]

That's so true, snowbird. It is just the tip of the iceberg. And well-off doesn't translate to well educated. They might be afforded a better academic education, but the lack of supervision and parent-child time at home is just as prominent (if not more so) in the homes of the well off with two successful working parents.

[greall]

The chickens are coming home to roost... :!:

I've always said that Trinidad is 'The Land of the Ostrich' for which I've been called 'unpatriotic'.We have problems here and we opt not to deal with them holistically but to persecute and punish.In all honesty,how will we ever solve the problem if we don't address the root cause... :?:

I've seen,with my own eyes,the look of fear on a young girl at 11 who's found out that she's either pregnant or has HIV.The Neanderthal in me would greatly like to find the impregnator and castrate him with a razor blade or a broken bottle but that won't solve the problem other than to give the masses some temporary feeling of self-righteousness.

The issue of underage sex will always bother us one we don't look at the root causes of the issue.I look around and see children being their own parents.My first office was located above a pre-school and within walking distance of a primary and secondary school so it was as if I'm looking at the timelin.Young girls,who are close to my age at 26 now,would be walking to school with a young kid (probably 5 or 6)and be obviously pregnant and this is no big deal.

My uncle tells me of walking in on children having sex at the secondary school and the principal expressing frustration at the incidents because she would call the parents in and they wouldn't come in.Yet the same parents wanted to hang the Biology teacher when she started a Sex Ed project.Hypocrisy abounds here and astonishes me... :!:

I look at the problem now and I remember when I did a presentation to parents of some of the kids at The Y: 3 out of 4 of the parents didn't know that there were other sexually transmitted infections (STIs) other than HIV/AIDS... :!:

We continue to hide and we face the consequences of our actions.

Greg

[sapodila]

This is a losing battle that has been going on for ages. When I was in Primary school in Trinidad the teacher would separate boys and girls into two groups and a female teacher would address the girls, likewise a male teacher would address the boys, teaching sex education, although they did not call it that back then. The same thing happenned in Secondary School. This time it was the P.E. Teacher's job to teach sex ed. Today people are more vocal and responsive to the topic weather negatively or positively. The students and their parents have choices now more than before. If they choose to screw up, who you going to blame? The system? Just like there is no end to world peace, there is no end to this problem unfortunately.

[snowbird]

One way to get the education across to both the children, and some of those uneducated Parents, would be if the Government or some other benevolent organization would sponsor some very graphic TV adds regarding the danger and pitfalls of not just sex amongst minors, but 'un-protected' sex period.

Maybe once they recognized on the world wide graph just how high Trinidad and Tobago sits, the message will finally be driven home. Unfortunately, because of some mentalities in T&T, the message needs to be 'crammed home'.

[KFCSpicy]

crammed home to no effect too.

[dancerboy]

I do not want to take this thread in another direction, but i must plead ignorance, and ask a question. ARE CONDOMS DISTRIBUTED IN HIGH SCHOOLS IN TRINIDAD ?, if not WHY NOT ?. MAY BE THIS SHOULD BE ANOTHER THREAD ?

DANCERBOY

[Solachica]

^^ No...a few yrs ago condoms were distributed outside a school and if you see the uproar there was. :roll:

[dancerboy]

^^ No...a few yrs ago condoms were distributed outside a school and if you see the uproar there was. :roll:
THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM. WE HAVE TO CHANGE THAT ANTEDILUVIAN THINKING.

DANCERBOY

[KFCSpicy]

wish yuh luck in de ostrich society. But if more parents attended parents teachers meetings and they had it on the agenda to discuss then hey who knows what constantly nagging parents/guardians would achieve?

[bluenote492000]

I find it extremely amazing that we are willing to consider that the 14/15 yr. old girl is “mature” enough to consent to have sex with a grown man but refuse to place responsibility on the man for committing an ILLEGAL act with a minor. As the adult in the situation you knew going in that your tail would be in jail if it was found out you were sexing 16 yr. old Suzy. Doctors are already responsible for reporting to the police suspected instances of child abuse and this is a form of child abuse and there isn’t a pretty way to dress that up. In this politically correct-let-talk-everything-out society we have failed to teach the basics to our kids, that there are consequences to your actions. That the two people responsible for creating the situation have to clean that up and you probably won’t like doing it. So the guy is going to be arrested. Maybe he’ll convince a judge that there were mitigating circumstances, maybe he’ll get time off for good behaviour, whatever it is he’ll have to deal with it just like the girl will have to deal with being a mother before she’s ready. No medical professional is going to deny a pregnant teenager medical treatment we are just having them report a potential crime that took place.

There is no denying that Trinidad’s school system needs a decent sex-ed programme and that we all have to get off our morals and accept a lot of kids are having sex. But we also have to teach our youngsters that there is something wrong with a 25 yr. old or 30 yr. old maxi taxi conductor wanting to have sex with you. Sure I belive in counselling our kids but be can’t have the counselling without the consequences otherwise we end up with the society we have now, a bunch of kids not willing to deal with consequences for their actions

[KFCSpicy]

Well said Blue

[snowbird]

Problem is 'Sex Ed' (plus every other law, and morality subject) is something that should be taught at home and simply reinforced at school (in an ideal world); but when you have Parents who maintain...... it's the school's responsibility; and you have Schools who maintain....... it's the Parent's responsibility, guess who's caught in the middle? This is when you need 'Big Brother' to step in and mandate that it is everyone's responsibility, Mother, Father, Grandmother, Grandfather, Neighbour, Teacher, Priest, toute mounde; until everyone sees it as their responsibility to not only educate, but to look out for the next generation, the problem will only get worse.

I have long since advocated a CHILDREN'S (all Minors) BILL OF RIGHTS FOR T&T, where every Adult within that child's circle of influence will be held accountable for the welfare of that child; that means not just home and school, but also community and country.

[kemist]

One of the reasons why i avoid going to certain clubs in t'dad, is because the majority of their crowd are teenie boppers. Some of those girls do look mature, especially when they have on all that war paint, but in reality they're 'jail without bail' and you may find that out too late.
In order for a guy to avoid one of those 'Akon' situations or worse we have to be more direct and start asking for ID, because the clubs dont do it.

[snowbird]

One of the reasons why i avoid going to certain clubs in t'dad, is because the majority of their crowd are teenie boppers. Some of those girls do look mature, especially when they have on all that war paint, but in reality they're 'jail without bail' and you may find that out too late.
In order for a guy to avoid one of those 'Akon' situations or worse we have to be more direct and start asking for ID, because the clubs dont do it.


Why? Is it against the law to DANCE with a Minor?

[Sirius]

I'm sorry but I just have to disagree that we're "just having them report a potential crime that took place". That is easy for us to say sitting here behind our computers. But it is not so easy to expect a frightened and confused teenage girl to go visit the hospital knowing that she would have to give a statement. Doubly so in a fear driven society like ours that has taken the route of violence for "ratting out". That's doing much more harm than good.

Are you honestly telling me that you don't think there is ANY other way to catch rapists and pedophiles than by putting undue extra pressure on an already traumatized child/young teen? That seems like an abandon of common sense to me.

[kemist]

One of the reasons why i avoid going to certain clubs in t'dad, is because the majority of their crowd are teenie boppers. Some of those girls do look mature, especially when they have on all that war paint, but in reality they're 'jail without bail' and you may find that out too late.
In order for a guy to avoid one of those 'Akon' situations or worse we have to be more direct and start asking for ID, because the clubs dont do it.


Why? Is it against the law to DANCE with a Minor?

certainly not.
But some folks who hook up at a club/fete sometimes go beyond just dancing that night.
Most young girls do lie about their age and the law doesn't cater for misinformation, even if the sign at the entrance says only 18 & over admitted.

[KFCSpicy]

Sirius why is she fearful and confused? Why isn't she quite knowledgeable about what she did having consequences such as child birth, lack of freedoms both financially and goalwise when you are lumbered with a rat fink at an early age? Why is she confused if she was educated about sex and responsibility by her parents and guardians or teachers and Sunday School teacher?

Because none of this happens so the child has to be worried about how it go look more than likely and how she go get in trouble if people find out she wid Mavis husband or de boy from round de corner. Consequences are just that. Either they have some Social Worker or Child Worker at the hospital permanently to explain and point out the pros and cons to both the parents of the child or children so that they would accept what is about to happen.

Fear? She had no fear when she drawse was down? I am sorry I had sex at 19 and is because of the FEAR of GOD my mother put into and the size of my father deterred a lot of would be solicitors in a house filled with only girl children. People feared and respected my parents, my dad's friends looked out for us when we were out and about in school as my sisters and I all went to school in and around POS. Mummy had a great relationship with all my teachers and the Deans and The Vice Principal.

She made it her business to attend all of the meetings and when my grades weren't up to par she came into school and requested a meeting with my teachers. My mother is not a fortune 500 wife and she is not a scholar she just knew what she wanted for her daughters and seeked it out by gaining knowledge for herself on the best routes for us to take in life.

Not all parents have this mentalility sadly whether they have never been given certain opportunities to realise them or because they could not be bothered. But if you as a parent dont know where yuh child is at 9 at night then yuh is to blame for she pregnancy dread.

[Sirius]

Spicy not all parents have offered guidance to their children. You cannot possibly look at your personal experience and then expect some child out of a parent who is never home, never took an interest in the child and never provided for the child to take the same path you did.

The parents failing resulted in the child getting pregnant and then not knowing what to do. Make them afraid to visit the hospital and you have just compounded the problem.

This does not give an excuse to push children to the point where they might endanger their lives and that of their unborn babies.

It beats me how we could pretend to be any kind of caring society and not take the necessary steps to ensure a balance between ensuring the well being of the nation and the health of these children who either did not know better or made a mistake.

It is a matter of very basic psychology and basic understanding of how the human mind operates. It is also a matter of compassion and understanding not for the man, but for the pregnant teenage mother who as you have so articulately pointed out before, is very much underage. Still a child.

It is a very, very sad day indeed when society has reached the point we are so desperate for the blood of our criminals that we don't care what happens to our children in the process. And then we want to know why our society has degraded so badly. It is because instead of confronting the issues, taking new approaches and showing the new generation how to love and understand, we want to be ostriches and hide behind pseudo-noble fronts such as self righteous criminal manhunts, god, and the old fashioned ideals. None of these approaches have worked over our however many tens of thousands of years of recorded history; why on this green Earth should it work now?

[vaio]

It is a matter of very basic psychology and basic understanding of how the human mind operates. It is also a matter of compassion and understanding not for the man, but for the pregnant teenage mother who as you have so articulately pointed out before, is very much underage. Still a child..

This is what must be borne in mind when dealing with underage pregnancies....most of these teens who think that they are wise enough to make an adult decision byengaging in sexual is the reason why the laws are there to protect these children.....but as stated above, these girls are sometimes to traumatised and confused to seek the necessary help...

a visit to the health institutions wld give a good indication of the alternatives used by these girls to abort babies....the methods vary....and most of these girls end up in the hospital...sadly its because we don't have the proper mechanisms in place to deal with teenage mothers....

[KFCSpicy]

In response to your first sentence I am sure I already stated that in my previous post. Sirius u seemed to be stuck in one gear here. No one is advocating endangering kids and so far you have not said how u think this problem should realistically be taken care of. You sympathise and look for reasons why people do what they do and then claim we harm them because they are too fragile in nature to deal with whatever comes their way as a result.

No one is advocating putting kids in danger but there must be a solution to this problem and I am sorry but the kids will be affected as a result some positively some negatively to what degree is upto the kids, families and the authorities ability to handle any given situation with sensitivity and common sense. Just as the glenco man got away cause he had a "right" to shoot to kill this decision being made by our DPP who then in turn will arrest someonelse for baby stealing cause he cannot fathom post-partum mental deffect. Is the same way we rely on human nature to make astute and balanced decisions.

You are just repeating what myself and a few others have said. We believe in educating the parents and finding better solutions through schools. So ease up now nah.

[serenity]

Sirius, i agree with many of your points but at the same time, I think u underestimate these children. The benefits of such legislation far outweigh the concerns that u have. Concerns that I am sure will affect but a few. As I said in an earlier post, all these girls will have to do is to point to any random boy of their own age as the father. Or say they dont know who the father is. In the meantime, such legislation may act as a deterrant to those men who prey on young girls. Jail bait may actually mean something if the public perception changes and ppl see the govt taking stronger measures. In any event, if it doesnt lessen the activity, it may encourage safe sex to avoid the girls getting pregnant in the first place. And safe sex would definitely be a welcome change in those demographics.

But like I said in an earlier post, there is no support system in place to ensure the success of such legislation:

DNA testing.
Manpower to look into this - a 'baby daddy' squad.
Social services to advise and provide support for these girls - its trauma enogh to have a baby, its another to know that by having it u put your man in jail.
Abortion legislation - men will take these girls to have abortions rather than face the possibility of jail. Which means that there would be health risks involved for the girls again.

[KFCSpicy]

And isn't a deterrent better than letting things just slide? If there is a deterrent then that indicates people are less likely to molest young girls and if they still want to take the risk the fact that they can be DNA tested and found out even if the lil heffa lies should also act as a deterrent and a guide to safer sex. So although we would not have ended the act of underage sex regardless of what other cultures practice it would have decreased greatly without any adverse affects.

[bluenote492000]

Exactly KFC! My mother is a single parent of four children (2 boys & 2 girls). We were definitely not rich or from a posh neighbourhood and a lot of times mom had to leave us alone while she worked but thankfully we are not part of the sad statistics of single parent homes since none of us are or have ever been in jail, on drugs or pregnant. And that is actually the lives of a lot of the young girls and women in my neighbourhood. How did my family turn out differently to the ones around me? Simple like KFC’s mom, my mom put the fear of God in us from early. I swear even up to form 5 in secondary school I still believed my mom was omnipresent so yuh know yuh have to cut your cards straight. My mom was like instant birth control, the mere thought of even being pregnant in my mother’s house was enough to keep my legs closed. So when them boys on the block came sniffing around the fear of what my mother would do to me overruled any and all raging hormones. It’s only now when I look around and see some of the same girls I grow up with in the neighbourhood who have 3 and 4 children at are 23 for different men in the area. Some of the younger ones like 15 and 16 pregnant for the man their own mother living with and mommy dearest ain’t think it’s a big deal. There was a time in the neighbourhood one man had 3 women pregnant all around the same time. And when I say women I mean like 18 and 19 and I think one was 16. I’m only waiting for the inevitable day when somebody brings in AIDS and a lot of young and older women would be left for dead. We have to face the fact that sometimes these teens aren’t that scared to be pregnant, in fact they see it as normal which is why you’ll see them pregnant at 15, again at 17 and probably at 19 doomed to repeat their mistakes since no one taught them about consequences for their actions. So yeah if reporting that a teenager is pregnant to the police produces enough fear and shame for her to be willing to reform her life and be provided with counselling and support services for that change to take place then I’m all for it since to me that is the greater good. Remember the victim here would be the child born to a teen who is unable to take care of herself so forget about taking care of the baby. Remember Amy Anamantudo? Wasn’t her mother like 19 yrs old? We all know how that one turned out. I think we have become such a pacifist society sure a pregnant teenager needs counselling but not mollycoddling, so report it to the police, assign a social worker to her who can check to see if she’s attending school and keeping up her grades so she could have a positive future.

[Sirius]

Somehow, I think the point I'm making is being bypassed. Nobody is saying to mollycoddle them. Nobody is saying not to find and apprehend offenders. Nobody is saying not to set deterrents in place.

All I am saying is several of you seem so hellbent on this particular measure despite the potential for harm coming to the children. Some of you are saying a few getting negatively affected is acceptable. I'm sorry but that is utterly unacceptable. You do NOT accept collateral damage. You aim for 100% effectiveness. Otherwise when you fall short, you will fall very far short. When you start accepting collateral damage you have indicated that you have given up and don't care how it's done anymore as long as it's done. That's the road to ruin.

How do other nations handle detection and investigation of underage pregnancy to pedophile fathers? Why can't we institute more intelligent measures such as school monitoring and proper transport there and back home? That's a far better means of seeing who the girls are interacting with. What about child care legislation to ensure there is supervision up to a certain age? Neighborhood watch groups? Shooting and robbing aren't the only crimes to look out for. Dare I suggest a qualified counselor permanently assigned to each school to whom the students can speak with about problems they can't or won't bring up with their parents?

So no, I won't ease up. I won't ease up because what I am seeing being demonstrated in this thread is the same issue that rears its ugly head again and again: That we don't want think things through from all angles and try new approaches to old problems. We just want to take the first thing that pops to mind and demand it be instituted.

[KFCSpicy]

Sigh... you are forgetting in your need to reform the "wrong thinkers" that this is a discussion Sirius so we are discussing the one point that you brought up which is we are being too harsh. So far that is what most of the discussion is stuck on. So forgive us all if it has not moved onto other things Sirius. Some temperance is needed.

As for collateral damage not being acceptable that is naive to the extreme. This is not a perfect world so there will always be collateral damage my dear. When you or anyone who is committed, knowledgeable and informed on this situation in a social worker capacity, parent or legal government aspect can come up with a solution that is free of the few that will fall between the cracks then I will definitely applaud such measures and gladly discuss them here. But seeing as we have none of these people here on the forum then this is all basically what we all feel should happen.

So seeing as you won't ease up dread then calm down. In your bid to do good yuh might end up doing more damage to these kids. Killing them with kindness as the saying goes.

[Sirius]

Sigh... you are forgetting in your need to reform the "wrong thinkers" that this is a discussion Sirius so we are discussing the one point that you brought up which is we are being too harsh. So far that is what most of the discussion is stuck on. So forgive us all if it has not moved onto other things Sirius. Some temperance is needed.

Exactly; discussing. So...you can disagree with my points but when I disagree with yours I have to ease up, have some temperance and now suggesting to move on to other things? That's not how you discuss KFC. You address points back and forth and hash out issues until a middle ground is found. I have been bringing up multiple points for the last couple threads, but in your replies, you're the one who seems stuck on the point of it being harsh. You have yet to address how it is acceptable to have some innocent sacrificial lambs and why the other measures I pointed out cannot work instead. Don't say I'm stuck in one gear when I've brought up several gears and you're focusing on one.


As for collateral damage not being acceptable that is naive to the extreme. This is not a perfect world so there will always be collateral damage my dear. When you or anyone who is committed, knowledgeable and informed on this situation in a social worker capacity, parent or legal government aspect can come up with a solution that is free of the few that will fall between the cracks then I will definitely applaud such measures and gladly discuss them here. But seeing as we have none of these people here on the forum then this is all basically what we all feel should happen.

No KFC. You never, ever aim to have collateral damage. Basic principle of management of any organization or situation.You never aim to accept a certain failure rate. Maybe that's why everything is done halfway in T&T...we accept a certain level of failure. It is inevitable that you will fall short and have collateral damage but that doesn't make it acceptable. It is also inevitable that due to human error, a given target will always be fallen short of. Therefore if you know you'll have 10% fallout, you might end up with 20 or 30% on your hands. When dealing with human lives, that is unacceptable! If a certain measure has a foreseeable downside, and other options with less room for damage is available then it is madness not to try those other options first. Find those with least collateral damage, then institute some heavy damage control to handle what may happen and try those measures first and foremost.

I have brought up other solutions right here on this thread, in fact a bunch of them are in the very post you replied to. So please, spare me the tirade that we have nobody on the forum with such ideas.


So seeing as you won't ease up dread then calm down. In your bid to do good yuh might end up doing more damage to these kids. Killing them with kindness as the saying goes.

I'd give you the same advice there, with the exception of the last sentence. Bear in mind all I have done thus far is restate my points and add to them as I've gone along. I'm still waiting to hear why the alternative measures can't work and why we should accept a certain number of these kids to be avoiding the hospitals.

[serenity]

Why does it have to be one or other? Why cant it be both? If your suggested measures will greatly decrease teenage pregnancies by adult men, then the legislation would only have the effect of getting those cases that slipped through your proposals - like incest. I think harsh measures are required and it goes to putting the fear of jail in the men.
Transporting kids to and from school doesnt mean that these men would not find other avenues to pick up a young girl. What if its the man that picking her up from school every evening and her lover isnt the stereotypical maxi man? Are u going to tell ppl that private cars not belonging to a family member cannot transport their kids?
As for the guidance councellors in schools, who really make use of them? Many empoyers have employee assistance programs and nobody uses them either, so what makes u think that a teenager is going to be willing to confide her man troubles in a disapproving adult. Most likely they'd turn to a friend.
Its the men u have to target. And the only way to do so is to put the pressure on them to stay away. U cannot supervise teenage girls at every step to make sure they make the right choices, but u can make life very difficult for a man by upping the stakes and making him realise that the jail part of 'jail bait' is very real.
As for your assertion that collateral damage is unacceptable, that is, as KFC said, naive. When working with ppl there are no certainties or absolutes. Thats why there are always somebody 'falling tru the cracks'. Even your own suggestions are susceptible to this flaw.

[KFCSpicy]

Yuh know what yuh draining meh ah energy wid yuh need to take this all so personal. I gladly invite people to disagree as this is where I can measure my thinking by.

You are mistaking my disagreeing with your views as the same as not wanting you to air them and me being peeved by your opinions...on this I think you are being wayyyy too assumptive. Ithink you are overeacting in this instance.

As for the rest I eh bother to read it cause as I said yuh draining meh ah mental energy right now with yuh zealousness. More power to you and anyone else with their contributions Sirius. But doh be vex cause I say calm down. Chin up my dear man and do take a chill pill it aint that serious.

[bluenote492000]

Ok I’m currently pursuing my degree in psychology particularly child psychology with an advanced diploma in counselling. When a friend of mine invited me to be a suicide hotline operator I remember him telling me the following “Look, you have to be mentally strong to volunteer for a job like this, because no matter what you do or how much you want to help, someone that has been calling in and has established a relationship with you is going to commit suicide and that’s the reality we live with here everyday. That today may be the day you lose somebody.” This is coming from a person whose teenager committed suicide. This is after hospitalizing her, sending her for counselling, medicating her all to no avail. Yeah sometimes you have to accept that there is going to be collateral damage not because you’re giving up but you have to face the reality in order to survive and help others.

Sirius, you speak about having a guidance officer or social worker in every school. Do you have any idea how many vacancies there are in the Ministry that can’t be filled because very few people are willing to become social workers/ guidance officers? My teacher who taught me counselling was a guidance officer who had to oversee 10 Secondary schools in Port of Spain. Just one school had problems ranging from poverty, sex abuse, incest, prostitution, violence, teenaged pregnancies, abortion, STIs and everything in between in just 1 school! What is one highly dedicated but overworked guidance officer to do? There are just not enough hours in the day to see about the multitude of problems that are currently in Secondary schools especially those in high risk areas. Then some principals are hostile when a guidance officer is assigned to their school since they view the guidance officer as being a spy sent by the Ministry to report how badly the principal is administering the school!

I would love for there to be more people willing to work in the Social Services but that is just not the case. When I first started my degree there were 30 people in my class within 1 yr. the class has gone from 30 to 10 students, 8 majoring in psychology and 2 in social work. Just a drop in the bucket for the hundreds of schools in Trinidad & Tobago. So having the Trinity of the doctor (supervising healthcare & reporting the crime), with the police (investigating the crime) and the social worker (providing counselling & support) seems to be the best way to tackle this problem. Sure the girl may be having a baby at 15 but on one wants to see her in the same situation 1 yr later.

[KFCSpicy]

I could not have said it better...at least that is the impression I am getting. Blue, I worked in Social Services for a year with my council and all I can say is you need reallll stomach for it and a never ending supply of good cheer and never try to get involved. I found myself catalouging our library of information and refs books and came across the Victoria Climbie case. I cried at my desk that day and got really uncomfortable dreams about it for a week.

I am not even nor was I then a Social worker, and that is how it affected me. I abhor the nature of a man or woman to cause such distress in another human being to the point of death so I will never be tolerant of men or women who willfully solicit and endanger young boys or girls sexually for their own gratification.

I do wish we can find a solution but when dealing with individual human nature that will never really come about anytime soon.

Also, to add to what blue said. I interned at a boys' primary school just out of studying and I over heard a conversation between the Prinicpal and 3 guidance officers who were all women in the office. I was the Prinicpals Secretary so I had to be there just in case all yuh wondering. Anyways, these women were visiting the schools on a series of information sharing and finding and our school was on the list and after the day ended they sat in the office looking dejected, tired mentally and emotionally from the weight of all that they had to deal with in their chosen professions. I pity them!

The one story that stuck in my mind was child x at the age of 7 in a Trinidadian primary school had to have her womb removed because she was so infected beyond saving with a curable treatable STD that it was the only solution at hand. Seven and she already lost the ability to bare kids because some pervert with a disease unchecked constantly molested her. How was she identified? Not by confiding in mommy or daddy or teacher but her little friend or sister I think...said to the Teacher one day...that child x does not smell right so the teacher thinking this odd questioned her further on what she meant and she said well she doh know but the lil girl doh smell normal. So the teacher took child x aside and realised as a woman herself that what she was smelling was the stench of a sexually active person. She called in the relevant authourties and the case is what it is today.

So... yuh see... I eh have no compassion for perverts. Not refroming them because I think once there are kids and babies there will always be that distraction/temptation to molest them. They need that trinity in they tail as blue and Serenity suggested. Or some quiet death.

[Sirius]

KFC: All I'm doing is responding in kind to yours. Please don't mistake it as vex...I'm actually quite calm indeed. I just find it silly to state multiple points, have one singled out and then told I'm on one gear and to calm down. When that happens and I respond in kind and restate my points, please don't take it personally.

serenity: What I propose is to try those alternative measures first, and if headway is not being made, then think about hospital legislation. The reason being the principle behind a hospital's existence. They are supposed to treat everyone fairly and equally without question. This is already not the case and I do not think it should be eroded. Furthermore, as you have said there are no absolutes when working with people. I do not find it acceptable to institute this kind of measure when dealing with the unpredictable behavior of a traumatized teenage mother. While there is no perfect plan, and collateral damage can and will happen, it is not naive to refuse to accept the collateral damage.

Tell me something, are there any organizations out there that exercise Total Quality Management that accept a level of flaw? They aim for perfection. Otherwise is out of the question. The same thing has got to apply in instances such as this. It's not being naive, it's ensuring things are done right. Speaking for myself I am sick and tired of how we here in T&T don't mind accepting things falling through the cracks. It is an attitude that has manifested itself right down to how we deal with other people and raise our children, which in turn has contributed to the high incidence of teenage pregnancy.


Now that said, let me address the other issues. You want to target the men - I agree we have to find out who they are and deal with them in the appropriate manner, but let us face reality here: The teenage girls who would avoid informing the police and as such avoid going to a hospital that will forward their records are the ones who did not give their consent to intercourse. i.e. those who were outright raped. The rest of them lack proper guidance at home, are uneducated, do not understand the consequences, do not understand prevention and lack basic principles of societal behavior. So how do we deal with them? As the saying goes, it takes two to tango, so you can't just go after the men and assume if they're in jail the girls won't have sex.

The other issue is this: Since when did jail time deter criminals? There is a death penalty for murder and our murder rate is at a record high. One can be imprisoned for having sex with a minor, yet it happens day in and day out. Penalties for breaking the law have never deterred those so inclined from breaking it. The threat of punishment serves to keep the righteous from going astray but it does not stop the astray from continuing to be astray. And for those righteous, it's already a crime to have sex with a minor, reported at the hospital or not. Maybe it's just my view but looking at how the criminal mind seems to work, hospital legislation won't do jack squat to deter any predator - only add more to the mind of a traumatized patient.

Measures such as school bus services ensure that children from poorer communities who don't have someone to pick them up get home without having to venture into unmonitored public transport. Look outside after school hours and there are children 5 and 6 years old walking downtown alone. School counselors provide an outlet for the children to talk about issues affecting them. Let us face it, a great many kids out there have no adult to listen to them, to talk to or to guide them. It's not a matter of the girls will go and tell the counselor that a man wants to have sex with them. That's frankly silly and the idea takes a much deeper approach that snags the problem before it gets even near that stage. Teachers can refer troubled students to counselors and when given an outlet from early they would be less prone to go wild later on. Such talks could also highlight troubled homes and measures can be taken to rectify the problems.

We don't have any proper implementation of such basic measures as school buses and guidance counselors. We don't have proper measures to take kids of out abusive homes. We don't monitor our youth. Yet, before we look at that approach we want to jump the gun and destroy the sanctity of our already damaged health care system and the already volatile trust of our young.


I'd also like to add something I've heard several times. It's a popular one with all the documentaries discussing criminal activity. "The mind of a rapist or a killer has no compassion for their victim" - or something like that. In their pursuit to fulfill their desires they see people as little more than animals; not people. When we in turn stop holding compassion for them as human beings, we have also ventured into the realm of the criminal mind. One can condemn the actions of another, and be furious over it without losing the basic sense of compassion that this person is still a human being and deserves a chance to be heard and understood regardless of the penalty that he/she must pay for the crime.

[KFCSpicy]

That's true in your last paragraph Sirius. I am intolerant not viewing the criminal as without feeling or thoughts. There is a huge difference.

Exactly what can a pervert say in his or her defence to make you feel compassion for the murder and rape or destruction of life of a child?

This is something I reallllllllllllllllllllllllllllly need to know Sirius.

Also, my apologies for being contradictory.

[Sirius]

Defense? I don't think they have much defense. There might be some level of understanding that they don't think straight due to whatever conditions they had growing up, but that constitutes an explanation, not a defense. But KFC, the compassion I speak of is not "oh gorm ah feelin sorry fuh he!". I am talking about compassion of one human being to another no matter how low they may go. It's a fundamental compassion for a fellow living, breathing, thinking human being that separates us from most other animals. It is the thing that keeps us from calling for the death of a fellow human being and delivering a fair trail regardless of our personal thoughts on the matter. It is this fundamental compassion that absences itself from the mind of a criminal...and it doesn't happen overnight. Like any other kind of person, a pervert, a rapist, a murderer, a thief, etc are all bred and not born.

[KFCSpicy]

Well I doh always think the death penalty is warranted for crimes but I do think a child molester is worse than a murderer Sirius. He has destroyed more than the physical and his poison is forever.

[Sirius]

A child molester has taken away a lot from the child and has damaged the child's life, but the child is still alive and can still make his/her choices and can still fulfill their pursuits in life. A murderer has snuffed out a life and once it is gone, it never comes back. I cannot agree that a molester is nearly as bad as, far less worse than a murderer. One damages the life, the other takes it away ending all opportunity for all else in this life...not even close. I don't think any crime deserves death. That is not our place unless we ourselves want to be murderers.

[bluenote492000]

A child molester is just as bad if not worse than a murderer. To hear the victims of rape, especially those raped as children you realise that the actions of one person sentenced another to a life of living death. It is something worse than murder, at least the murdered person only suffered for that time. A rape victim has to live with the memories of the rape which can be replayed over and over again. Living in fear that it might happen again. Not being able to trust another human being. Speaking to rape victims they view their lives as been torn in two the one before the rape that was killed that day and the one after it. It’s never the same. As a woman, as a human being I’ll never be able to understand or have even a smidgen of compassion for a child molester. I remember passing a court house where a rapist was going into the courts and in full view of the public says “Ah eh know what the big deal is. Nobody never die from ah f&%k!” Exercise some human compassion for him? Or for Amy Ananmuntudo’s killer or Sean Luke’s or Akil Chambers? When such unspeakable, abominable acts are perpetrated on our kids to me you’ve lost the right to be called human. Sorry, my sympathy is with the victims I could care less about the tender feelings and rights of the perpetrators.

[serenity]

serenity: What I propose is to try those alternative measures first, and if headway is not being made, then think about hospital legislation.
Clearly none of this is going to be implemented any time soon. To address the issue in a serious manner there has to less speculation and more consultation with those coming face to face with these issues daily. Do we know how many teenage mothers there are in any given year? How many in the 12-16 age group? How many of these are as a result of statutory rape? Without this info how can we be sure where the source of the problem is and which is the best measure to address it?

The reason being the principle behind a hospital's existence. They are supposed to treat everyone fairly and equally without question.
Clearly that is not the case when it comes to possible breaches of the law. Isnt there an obligation on the part of the doctors or hospital staff to report possible domestic abuse? Sexual abuse of children? Gun shot wounds? Should treatment really be without question?

Furthermore, as you have said there are no absolutes when working with people. I do not find it acceptable to institute this kind of measure when dealing with the unpredictable behavior of a traumatized teenage mother. While there is no perfect plan, and collateral damage can and will happen, it is not naive to refuse to accept the collateral damage.
I'm not saying collateral damage is ok. I'm saying that no plan is foolproof. No one can predict how any situation will play out or forsee every possible situation and circumstance.

Speaking for myself I am sick and tired of how we here in T&T don't mind accepting things falling through the cracks. It is an attitude that has manifested itself right down to how we deal with other people and raise our children, which in turn has contributed to the high incidence of teenage pregnancy.
Exactly. Which is why the more measures implemented and the more aggressively these men are pursued, the lesser the chance of any of them slipping past the system.


As the saying goes, it takes two to tango, so you can't just go after the men and assume if they're in jail the girls won't have sex.
True, but there may be less men willing to take the chance of unprotected sex with them.

Maybe it's just my view but looking at how the criminal mind seems to work, hospital legislation won't do jack squat to deter any predator - only add more to the mind of a traumatized patient.
Not all the patients are traumatised. Some are very happy to be having their babies. Some see it as cementing the relationship with their man. For some, as was stated by others in this thread, its the norm. Maybe their own mothers had them at 15. And the predators would want to avoid the hassle of a jail. Lets say the father is a maxi conductor, dont u think they'd use condoms so that there's no question of jail?

Measures such as school bus services ensure that children from poorer communities who don't have someone to pick them up get home without having to venture into unmonitored public transport. Look outside after school hours and there are children 5 and 6 years old walking downtown alone. School counselors provide an outlet for the children to talk about issues affecting them. Let us face it, a great many kids out there have no adult to listen to them, to talk to or to guide them. It's not a matter of the girls will go and tell the counselor that a man wants to have sex with them. That's frankly silly and the idea takes a much deeper approach that snags the problem before it gets even near that stage. Teachers can refer troubled students to counselors and when given an outlet from early they would be less prone to go wild later on. Such talks could also highlight troubled homes and measures can be taken to rectify the problems.
Agreed.

We don't have any proper implementation of such basic measures as school buses and guidance counselors. We don't have proper measures to take kids of out abusive homes. We don't monitor our youth. Yet, before we look at that approach we want to jump the gun and destroy the sanctity of our already damaged health care system and the already volatile trust of our young.
No, we want to send a clear message of acceptable behaviour and that there are consequences in the law that follows as well. Its not only about what your pastor say, or what the guidance counsellor say.

I'd also like to add something I've heard several times. It's a popular one with all the documentaries discussing criminal activity. "The mind of a rapist or a killer has no compassion for their victim" - or something like that. In their pursuit to fulfill their desires they see people as little more than animals; not people. When we in turn stop holding compassion for them as human beings, we have also ventured into the realm of the criminal mind. One can condemn the actions of another, and be furious over it without losing the basic sense of compassion that this person is still a human being and deserves a chance to be heard and understood regardless of the penalty that he/she must pay for the crime.
No dispute there. Just a question of the penalties involved.

[snowbird]

A child molester has taken away a lot from the child and has damaged the child's life, but the child is still alive and can still make his/her choices and can still fulfill their pursuits in life. A murderer has snuffed out a life and once it is gone, it never comes back. I cannot agree that a molester is nearly as bad as, far less worse than a murderer. One damages the life, the other takes it away ending all opportunity for all else in this life...not even close. I don't think any crime deserves death. That is not our place unless we ourselves want to be murderers.

Murder, molestation, big difference; but neither one is 'better' than the other. One kills the physical body, the other kills the soul (spirit).
In the case of murder it is immediate and final. In the case of molestation it goes much deeper; For some it is a lingering death, sometimes over many years with the victims hoping and wanting the final death, this they see as their only release from the daily torture of re-living the event.
For others, it is the result of those acts perpetrated against them that turns the victim themselves into the eventual 'predators'. In some cases molestation has far more reaching implications than murder, so justifiable the penalties should be greater I think.

[KFCSpicy]

I notice Sirius is the only male on here discussing this. And the women are all for the penalties and any law that would make things better and not about reforming a loser rapist/molesting freak. I think Sirius you are letting compassion cloud your judgement. I can feel sorry for a lot of people but when it comes down to it some people are just plain evil. No bad childhood just a choice that they carried through on.

SB and Blue stated it clearly as apparently yuh didn't get my blunt drift. I rather die than live an never ending life of mental emotional and physical torture after being brutalised by some freak. Some women who get raped deal with it like soldiers but deep down they all just want to curl up and die. How this effects the husbands the girl children or even the boys who get raped is beyng measure so for those who suffered and died at least they have eternal peace. The survivors have to pretend to or struggle towards that goal daily.

[discipuli]

as the youngest person on the forum i believe its my duty to comment :

Adults molesting children has always been part of the culture , but i'd say its probably on the increase .


Children having sex with children is on the increase... while its partly due to the hedonistic society we live in , i believe the lack of parental involvement and sex education is the biggest factor.

the situation is complicated... abused children tend to become more sexually active at a young age , but at the same time teens are having more sex because of how it is glamorized in the media.

What needs to be done is a comprehensive study into the problems and how to solve them.. Instead of the shortsighted nonsense the Ostriches support e.g. ban camera phones in schools to stop the porn videos etc.

The decline of religious values is also a factor , but it wouldn't be so if proper secular sex education was available : You can't expect children to follow values that they don't have , and keep them in the dark about reproductive health.

At the root of it all i guess is the bane of modern society : single parent homes and parents who work to much to supervise their children properly. It leaves them open to negative influences and abuse by potential predators.

[dancerboy]

as the youngest person on the forum i believe its my duty to comment :

Adults molesting children has always been part of the culture , but i'd say its probably on the increase .


Children having sex with children is on the increase... while its partly due to the hedonistic society we live in , i believe the lack of parental involvement and sex education is the biggest factor.

the situation is complicated... abused children tend to become more sexually active at a young age , but at the same time teens are having more sex because of how it is glamorized in the media.

What needs to be done is a comprehensive study into the problems and how to solve them.. Instead of the shortsighted nonsense the Ostriches support e.g. ban camera phones in schools to stop the porn videos etc.

The decline of religious values is also a factor , but it wouldn't be so if proper secular sex education was available : You can't expect children to follow values that they don't have , and keep them in the dark about reproductive health.

At the root of it all i guess is the bane of modern society : single parent homes and parents who work to much to supervise their children properly. It leaves them open to negative influences and abuse by potential predators. HOW DO WE KNOW U R THE YOUNGEST PERSON ?
Well as the oldest person on the forum, we were never exposed to sex the way the children of today are. IN my days we 'uses' to call condoms french leather, or rubbers. You couldn't walk into a pharmacy and ask for a french leather if you were under-age. And even if you were 'over-age', and you went to by one, you would only whisper to the pharmacist, and GOD FORBID u saw an elderly person approaching. An we didnt have all this teen-age pregnancy. And abortion wasn't as readily available as it is today. You also seem to think that the banning of camera phones to aviod children from indulging in porn videos is shortsighted. So i guess allowing it to continue without addressing it is being visionary. In my day we were told that the 'STALK' or AIRPLANES' brought babies. And we believed. It's amazing there is so much more information 'literally' at our 'fingertips' today, and yet still there is a greater lack of intelligence. Unfortunately knowledge does not translate to inteligence.

DANCERBOY

[snowbird]

^^^
DANCERBOY no argument here, you are the oldest person, not just on the forum, but on the planet :lol:

With regard to your comments ^^^ I would say you are 50/50, while I agree that we grew up in a more innocent time, the boys still knew the score (which is why they would visit the local pharmacy, only to get a good 'telling off' by the pharmacist).

I think the crux of the problem is due to the fact that we have taken away consequences, the weakening of moral values and the acceptance by society that....... these things will happen so let's just deal with it. We have put so many 'deal with it options' out there now that we have made sex, promiscuity, pregnancy and parenting no big deals anymore, i.e. condoms for everyone no questions asked, the night before pill, the morning after pill, abortion, adoption, Single Parenting, Subsidise Childcare, Social Services to deal with these issues, and Courts to handle the mess after the fact.

Now don't get me wrong, each one of these options in the right context serves a useful purpose, however I am also mindful that they do help to assist the weak and stupid in making bad decisions.

[dancerboy]

DANCERBOY no argument here, you are the oldest person, not just on the forum, but on the planet GOOD ONE SB. I ALWAYS THOUGHT I WAS ABOUT TWO YEARS YOUR SENIOR.

DANCERBOY

[snowbird]

DANCERBOY no argument here, you are the oldest person, not just on the forum, but on the planet GOOD ONE SB. I ALWAYS THOUGHT I WAS ABOUT TWO YEARS YOUR SENIOR.

DANCERBOY

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Me and you, we build dem mountains :lol: :lol: :lol: